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Well, I didn't try out arcanine but I tried to make specs heliolisk work, but unfortunately even at 109 speed, it gets outsped by too many relevant threats(also scarf keldeo is becoming really popular which sucks for it) and paper thin defenses meant it doesn't take a single physical hit, even 2hkoed by stuff like banded scizor bp. So I tried out some more sets like specific z-crystals, like darkinium z for latias, but again it just gets outsped and 1khoed even by psyshock.
Normalium Z set was decent in general, but it then lacks power on all of its other moves, for eg thunderbolt fails to KO keldeo from full, so...
So, basically mixed metagross is rad right now, it's powerful enough and gets more than decent coverage, but I haven't been able to make heliolisk work.
Okay let me start of by saying this mon is SO fucking bad. like jesus christ. i've tried playing like 20 or so games with it, and granted that might not be enough, but it doesn't take more games than that to realise that any mon that cant pull its weight in even one of those 20 would be shit. lets start with the fact that it's a defensive fire type that cannot check bisharp properly without running a fucking speed boosting nature. gr8 mon. that takes away so much from it's bulk. next big fucking pitfall: weak to rocks and shitty recovery. oh arcanine is your check to steel types such as cobalion? nah not really because the second rocks go up arcanine becomes literally fucking useless. oh and you gotta love the fact that its best way of getting off damage results in it taking recoil (wild charge / flare blitz) which makes it use its shitty recovery even more! guess that's enough venting.
personally the set i've been using is a toxic / wisp / flamethrower / morning sun set. thought toxic would be cool cuz you can nail cm lati / cm bro that try to set up on you and just go out to empoleon or something and deal with them from there. at least, that's what i've been doing. the spread i've been running has been mixed in order to best take on victini.
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 248 HP / 104 SpD Arcanine: 169-200 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery.
that's the benchmark i was aiming to hit. i thought that was a pretty good idea because then it's basically able to handle everything tini throws at it. but then i ended up actually facing this tini and rocks happened to be up and well unfortunately i fucking lost because arcanine couldn't do the one job it was supposed to as a defensive mon because rocks were up. and this was pretty much the main problem i encountered with it. it's so reliant on rocks being off the field in order to do anything that you end up losing a teammate or two just trying to accomplish that. even pokemon it's supposedly able to beat such as scizor just u turn out into primarina or hydreigon or something and then ur on the back foot again.
other sets i tried after i got sick of this were choice band, found it hard to justify over infernape or even entei (which is pretty dong), and a completely physically defensive spread with wild charge and flare blitz. although all these sets suffered from the same problems -_-
just overall i think this is a pretty garbage pokemon. but that's just been my experience with it. if you guys had better luck with it please tell me what i've done wrong x_x. i'll post my thoughts on metagross later but i'm having a lot more fun with that than i am with a mon that, as gc put it, took the dog in dog shit a little to literally.
For Heliolisk, it faces too much competition with Raikou as a regular Electric-type attacker. Raikou is bulkier, hits harder, and faster than Heliolisk at the expense of less coverage options and no dual STAB which was why I kinda deterred from Life Orb and Choice Specs sets since ideally a Raikou could do them better. Imo, Heliolisk is still usable in UU because Normal + Electric STAB is very hard for the tier to switch in to, combined with either Grass Knot / Surf / Signal Beam, and Z-Hyper Beam can easily blow away and surprise its checks.
I'm utilizing Heliolisk in a VoltTurn core alongside physical Scarf Victini (which will be changed soon since I highly doubt Victini will return to UU) alongside wallbreaker Kyurem so I have 2 ways to safely bring it in. This is the team as of now, I'm planning to change Victini and possible Clefable due to the controversy of whether or not it should stay in UU.
So, out of the sets people seem to be running/posting here I thought I'd rather use Heliolisk on a tailwind team as it doesn't seem to me on a good speed tier for a Timid nature alone.
Expert Belt at first might seem to be a decent set imo because you can bluff being choice locked into a move and still deal close-to-LO damage. However, not OHKOing gastrodon with a [Modest] grass knot is disappointing: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-533363758
(i still won bc mega-aero is god)
Back again, here to share some more findings because I won't have much time to ladder before the deadline.
I took GrilledClawitzer 's advice and ditched the gimmick. Even without Trick Room making His Majesty Adipose Rex lightning fast, CB Snorlax still accomplishes a very important role: SMASH.
Snorlax doesn't do a whole lot in this replay, but it shows something that may be its niche in UU: it's happy to come in on Special Attacking walls. The best thing my opponent's Amoonguss can do to it is Toxic, which just gives me a base 140 power Facade to fire off. Not statused? That's okay, just click Return:
this is the best replay I have so far, warning its a pretty "not-so-high" quality one. Ignore random misplays and such, the main highlight was that Heliolisk was able to knock out Celebi (which the team didn't really struggle against anyways) but, it prevented Heliolisk from being chunked by Earth Power or Giga Drain which would have meant that it would not have taken +2 Air Slash from Togekiss. Also broken Victini put in more work since its Victini.
Im currently using this set on Heliolisk and it hasn't brought me any real problems as far as coverage goes.Then again that might just be the battles I get.Overall, it performed ok.
The only thing that disappointed me was how frail it was.Any pokemon faster or that has a priority move can easily take a decent chunck out of this(Course thats probably something most people know).I found it to be sometimes difficult to find opportunities for it to switch in, and I would usually end up only switching it in on a given water attack or after a pokemon faints.
Some calculations..(puts on nerd glasses)(So close to 100%......SR makes it guaranteed on all these calcs)
252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise-Mega: 348-410 (96.1 - 113.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Primarina: 342-404 (93.9 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 470-554 (119.2 - 140.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This being said any other pokemon such as Hydreigon and Keldeo would also be OHKOed by Heliolisk,but can OHKO Heliolisk as long as they are scarfed,which is something that is popular with Keldeo,and is run on some Hydreigons.I tried the set that HotFuzzBall posted,but I found the lack of giant power after the z move disappointing,and the fact that if a certain pokemon has the right evs,can live it and slap Heliolisk in the face.Heliolisk is also outclassed by Raikou being in UU.
And time's up! I just checked the rankings of everyone who shared their research results, and Lord Esche won! Congratulations, your name will be entered into the SMUU Hall of Fame! It might take a while, but I won't forget, don't worry!
To give a shot summary of this week, four Pokemon have been tested: Snorlax, Metagross, Arcanine and Heliolisk. Arcanine has been very disappointing for pretty much every participant, as it didn't offer much as an offensive Fire-type over its competition, and its Stealth Rock weakness prevented it from being an effective check to many different things it was expected to check. On top of that, its recovery easily got gimped by the ubiquity of Hippowdon and its sand. Heliolisk has been seeing some okay results, oftentimes being used as a lure for Ground-types as far as I can tell, but has also been disappointing overall due to its frailty and the fact that we have Raikou in this tier. Nevertheless, there was some potential. Snorlax has also been working okay, from what I can tell. The only set that I saw being tested was its Choice Band one, and it had decent results. However, this generation, it seems to be facing strong competition from Bewear. Snorlax does switch into Scald more easily, but its lesser speed tier, lesser physical bulk, and lack of Fighting-type STAB have made it a worse option overall.
Last but not least, we have figured out that Metagross is still a great Pokemon. Its ability to check Fairy-types has been especially great due to Clefable, and many of the researchers here have utilized a mixed set. Grass Knot has been able to lure plenty of Water-types, and Hidden Power Fire has removed many a Scizor. Beyond that, it has been able to fit on teams rather nicely and did not need teams to taylor themselves around it. Overall, this has by far been the best Pokemon this cycle.
Now, this first week, you all may have had a lot of freedom, but for the second week, I am going to limit that a bit more. This time around, you are going to receive sets that I want you to flesh out and test. The selection this time around is likely going to benefit offensive teams more than others, and it is going to be a bit crazy. I am looking forward to seeing some results. Without any further ado, let me reveal cycle 2's assortment:
Let me take this opportunity to thank all of you who participated during week 1 again. I appreciate the discussion, and hope we can forward strongly. To participate during week 2, please sign up with a fresh RW alt. Also, I want to reiterate how important it is to see a Pokemon in action, so please post replays of your exploits. If you are worried about your post count, it is also not necessary to make a new post; you can always edit your sign-up post with your research later on. Me or my co-host eht will take a look as the week ends. The deadline will be Friday, February 24th, at 11:59 pm GMT+1.
RW Cfal 2 very original I know. Testing Swampert and Silvally.
The only change I made for Silvally was switching Return for Double-Edge. It needs the extra power, as average Attack and no boosting item means it's quite weak, even at +2.
So I hit 1400 on the ladder today. Right now I have an almost 3/1 win ratio. My thoughts so far:
Band Swampert
Actually a really good set. So far I've been running Waterfall, Earthquake, Superpower, Ice Punch and it can 2HKO most of the tier. STAB Waterfall lets it 2HKO Hippowdon, something few physical attackers can do. It has a surprising number of opportunities to switch in thanks to its great typing, and it rarely fails to get at least one KO. I'd give the set 8/10.
Here's the set:
Swampert @ Choice Band
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Superpower
EVs let you outrun uninvested 65s like bulky Scizor and defensive Umbreon. Max attack for optimum power, the rest in HP for extra bulk. Waterfall and Earthquake get STAB; Ice Punch hits the Grass types that resist Swampert's STAB hard. Superpower OHKOes Hydreigon and Blissey, although I rarely find myself using it.
SD Silvally
Better than I was expecting. A +2 Breakneck Blitz can smash a lot of Pokémon. Interestingly, Silvally can 2HKO Quagsire with Breakneck Blitz + Explosion, if it doesn't get Burned by Scald. I did make a couple of changes to the listed set - I swapped out Return for Double-Edge, as Silvally needs all the power it can get. I also swapped Flame Charge for Crunch, as I found the extra coverage on Ghost types very useful. It also hits Psychic types hard without Double-Edge's recoil, which is nice. It generally serves as an early to mid game wallbreaker - sometimes I just Explode it so a teammate can have a free switch in. Finding space to set up can be tricky though. I'd give the set 7/10. Earthquake would make Silvally so much better. Here it is:
Swords Dance gives Silvally the power it needs. Double-Edge is the main STAB. Crunch hits Ghost types hard. Explosion lets me literally go out with a bang. Normalium Z gives a 200 BP Breakneck Blitz with Explosion, making up for Silvally's average Attack stat. EVs are obvious.
Sorry I don't have a replay atm, but will post one when I do.
So I hit 1400 on the ladder today. Right now I have an almost 3/1 win ratio. My thoughts so far:
Band Swampert
Actually a really good set. So far I've been running Waterfall, Earthquake, Superpower, Ice Punch and it can 2HKO most of the tier. STAB Waterfall lets it 2HKO Hippowdon, something few physical attackers can do. It has a surprising number of opportunities to switch in thanks to its great typing, and it rarely fails to get at least one KO. I'd give the set 8/10.
Here's the set:
Swampert @ Choice Band
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Superpower
EVs let you outrun uninvested 65s like bulky Scizor and defensive Umbreon. Max attack for optimum power, the rest in HP for extra bulk. Waterfall and Earthquake get STAB; Ice Punch hits the Grass types that resist Swampert's STAB hard. Superpower OHKOes Hydreigon and Blissey, although I rarely find myself using it.
SD Silvally
Better than I was expecting. A +2 Breakneck Blitz can smash a lot of Pokémon. Interestingly, Silvally can 2HKO Quagsire with Breakneck Blitz + Explosion, if it doesn't get Burned by Scald. I did make a couple of changes to the listed set - I swapped out Return for Double-Edge, as Silvally needs all the power it can get. I also swapped Flame Charge for Crunch, as I found the extra coverage on Ghost types very useful. It also hits Psychic types hard without Double-Edge's recoil, which is nice. It generally serves as an early to mid game wallbreaker - sometimes I just Explode it so a teammate can have a free switch in. Finding space to set up can be tricky though. I'd give the set 7/10. Earthquake would make Silvally so much better. Here it is:
Swords Dance gives Silvally the power it needs. Double-Edge is the main STAB. Crunch hits Ghost types hard. Explosion lets me literally go out with a bang. Normalium Z gives a 200 BP Breakneck Blitz with Explosion, making up for Silvally's average Attack stat. EVs are obvious.
Sorry I don't have a replay atm, but will post one when I do.
Thank you for participating, I am glad this has been working out for you. Choice Band Swampert has been a favorite of mine since the Alpha, and I have found myself using it a bit during the Beta. I also know of others such as CoolStoryBrobat having used it, and it has seen some success with them.
The Silvally set was given to my by cute user Pearl, who to my knoweldge combatted the Ghost-type weakness of that set by pairing it with a Pursuit user. Hitting Scizor and even gaining some speed out of it has been far more valuable than hitting Ghost-types, especially since Doublade is a nightmare for you anyhow. This brings me to a point: please do not change the suggested set. I do know I asked all of you to flesh out the sets, but what I meant was to fill in the blanks on Swampert and Ribombee in this case. I specifically want the Flame Charge Version researched this week, so I would like if it you could stick with that.
I hope you do not mind this, and again I am thankful for your research. Please continue working hard! Thank you!
