Reuniclus

[SlimMan]

What exactly is wrong with the characteristics?

*sigh* I've tried to explain politely. But you didn't understand. Are you seriously that dense?

The characteristics are fine. But because they are on such a subjective topic, it is a given that they will not be ideal for everyone. Therefore, while they represent something we all want, they themselves are not "perfect" for some people. Therefore, they should not be something we are bound to. They can be an excellent reference, be an excellent suggestion or guideline, but to use them so strictly and never roam from getting exactly the metagame that they describe will not leave everyone happy.

So I'm am trying to tell you that they are fine to use but to branch out a little and have some compromises is perfectly fine, because we try to please as many people as possible. Majority rules, remember?

 

[KurashiDragon]

@masterful

That's pretty much what I was trying to say. Sir Azelf was comparing the two. I was simply trying to state the differences.

Why are you trying to be so adamant about this. Exactly how much research have you done to prove Reuniclus truly breaks stall and hyper offense. Did you know that CB Scizor has the bulk to take a 252 EV Life Orb Focus Blast from Reuniclus and proceed to OHKO with CB Bug Bite? Did you know that CM roar Latias can set up right along with the CM Reuniclus and proceed to roar it out? If that's not a good enough example for stalling out Reuniclus did you know that Spiritomb can take a +1 Shadow Ball taunt it and stall it out with Pain Split while slowly taking it down with Sucker Punch? That's some of the research users have done in an effort to make a solid case about against Reuniclus' nomination for Uber. So what does Reuniclus do exactly that is against the "Characteristics of a desirable metagame?"

I can understand that Reuniclus is a big time pokes in the metagame, and given that I've used it long enough can see why some people would be pissed off just seeing the thing. However, I don't understand why people can so easily call something Uber when they haven't done enough research to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that something is of Uber quality.

 

[masterful]

*sigh* I've tried to explain politely. But you didn't understand. Are you seriously that dense?

The characteristics are fine. But because they are on such a subjective topic, it is a given that they will not be ideal for everyone. Therefore, while they represent something we all want, they themselves are not "perfect" for some people. Therefore, they should not be something we are bound to. They can be an excellent reference, be an excellent suggestion or guideline, but to use them so strictly and never roam from getting exactly the metagame that they describe will not leave everyone happy.

So I'm am trying to tell you that they are fine to use but to branch out a little and have some compromises is perfectly fine, because we try to please as many people as possible. Majority rules, remember?

Dude, if you have no specific complaint, STOP ARGUING. If someone appears who DOES dispute the characteristics, I will deal with it then. There's no point arguing for argument's sake

 

[SlimMan]

Why are you trying to be so adamant about this.

Was this still aimed at masterful? Or was it at someone else (me)?

 

[masterful]

@masterful

That's pretty much what I was trying to say. Sir Azelf was comparing the two. I was simply trying to state the differences.

Why are you trying to be so adamant about this. Exactly how much research have you done to prove Reuniclus truly breaks stall and hyper offense. Did you know that CB Scizor has the bulk to take a 252 EV Life Orb Focus Blast from Reuniclus and proceed to OHKO with CB Bug Bite? Did you know that CM roar Latias can set up right along with the CM Reuniclus and proceed to roar it out? If that's not a good enough example for stalling out Reuniclus did you know that Spiritomb can take a +1 Shadow Ball taunt it and stall it out with Pain Split while slowly taking it down with Sucker Punch? That's some of the research users have done in an effort to make a solid case about against Reuniclus' nomination for Uber. So what does Reuniclus do exactly that is against the "Characteristics of a desirable metagame?"

1)Have fun with Stall CB Bug Bite Scizor. That's not niche at all
2)CM Latias doesn't enjoy Psycho Shocks one bit, and phazing it will do absolutely nothing, as it can come back in later with no hazard damage. Spiritomb is niche, and I have been over this so many times I don't even care if you continue to choose to be ignorant. If you don't even reference any of my points I will know that you don't care about actual debate and simply want to "win." If you DO reference and attempt to refute my points, I would be glad to continue this discussion with you

 

[SlimMan]

Dude, if you have no specific complaint, STOP ARGUING. If someone appears who DOES dispute the characteristics, I will deal with it then. There's no point arguing for argument's sake

1) Hearing that from you is probably the funniest thing I've heard all day.

2) You still don't seem to understand. But I've explained every way I can think of off the top of my head, so I'm gonna chill.

3)Oh look, you get what you want. Unfortunately, you get it for being obstinate and stubborn, as opposed to using logic. Sorry.

1)Have fun with Stall CB Bug Bite Scizor. That's not niche at all
2)CM Latias doesn't enjoy Psycho Shocks one bit, and phazing it will do absolutely nothing, as it can come back in later with no hazard damage. Spiritomb is niche, and I have been over this so many times I don't even care if you continue to choose to be ignorant. If you don't even reference any of my points I will know that you don't care about actual debate and simply want to "win." If you DO reference and attempt to refute my points, I would be glad to continue this discussion with you

1) I assume you're saying niche=bad. If you are saying that, then you're so wrong it's funny.

2)Hypocrisy makes the world go 'round. Nepotism is so 2010.

3)I don't know how many times we've had the Spiritomb discussion. It is not inherently bad, and if it fixes your team's weakness, what reason is there not to use it?

 

[masterful]

1) Hearing that from you is probably the funniest thing I've heard all day.

2) You still don't seem to understand. But I've explained every way I can think of off the top of my head, so I'm gonna chill.
Oh look, you get what you want. Unfortunately, you get it for being obstinate and stubborn, as opposed to using logic. Sorry

How is it logical to dispute something with no reason to dispute it? Your clearly just scrambling to attack my intelligence, as everything I have said on this thread has been relevant to the banning of Reuniclus which is a REAL issue. If no one disputes the characteristics, there is no point in saying that using them as a point of reference is a bad thing. READ THIS. I want you to calmly and rationally refute what I have said in a logical manner with proper support. If you can do this, I would be glad to continue this discussion.

 

[KurashiDragon]

That was aimed at masterful. I actually haven't read any of your posts SlimeMan lol.

@Masterful

1. If you had read my post a little more clearly you'd have seen that when I was talking about CB Scizor Bug Bite I was refering to the TR set not the CM set. Also there is a such thing as Semi Stall. (I've used it long enough anyway.)

2. You would be correct in assuming that Latias doesnt "enjoy" Psycho Shock in that 0 evs Life Orb +1 Psycho Shock does 36.9 - 45.3% to 0/0 Latias. (I intentionally didn't put evs on Latias because I actually don't know the CM Roar's ev spread.) However, Latias could easily come in on the Calm Mind, take the hit quite nicely, roar it out, and set up.

2B. In what way is Spiritomb a niche. It's a spin blocker, stops physical sweepers by crippling them with will-o-wisp, it doesn't have any weaknesses and has the bulk to take neutral hits and get back that hp with pain split. What exactly am I missing that makes Spiritomb a niche. What outclasses Spiritomb in every single possible way that it's limited to a niche except when combating Reuniclus? I would really like to know.

 

[masterful]

That was aimed at masterful. I actually haven't read any of your posts SlimeMan lol.

@Masterful

1. If you had read my post a little more clearly you'd have seen that when I was talking about CB Scizor Bug Bite I was refering to the TR set not the CM set. Also there is a such thing as Semi Stall. (I've used it long enough anyway.)

2. You would be correct in assuming that Latias doesnt "enjoy" Psycho Shock in that 0 evs Life Orb +1 Psycho Shock does 36.9 - 45.3% to 0/0 Latias. (I intentionally didn't put evs on Latias because I actually don't know the CM Roar's ev spread.) However, Latias could easily come in on the Calm Mind, take the hit quite nicely, roar it out, and set up.

2B. In what way is Spiritomb a niche. It's a spin blocker, stops physical sweepers by crippling them with will-o-wisp, it doesn't have any weaknesses and has the bulk to take neutral hits and get back that hp with pain split. What exactly am I missing that makes Spiritomb a niche.

Thank you for actually repudiating.
1)The TR set is not broken. I don't know if someone has been saying ti is, but I do not subscribe to that notion. (Yet CB Bug Bite Scizor is still niche)
2)Latias can Roar, true, yet Rank will take no hazard damage, and you will only be able ot set up one CM at best (assuming you Roar him into a bad poke against Latias), and you will be easily revenged. Meanwhile, you will have taken at least 37% damage and gotten little to no benefit besides 1 free CM

 

[SlimMan]

How is it logical to dispute something with no reason to dispute it? Your clearly just scrambling to attack my intelligence, as everything I have said on this thread has been relevant to the banning of Reuniclus which is a REAL issue. If no one disputes the characteristics, there is no point in saying that using them as a point of reference is a bad thing. READ THIS. I want you to calmly and rationally refute what I have said in a logical manner with proper support. If you can do this, I would be glad to continue this discussion.

Hearing you complain about personal attacks is probably sig-worthy. Just sayin'.

I am going to calmly and rationally dispute what you say. Would you agree that (in general) the Smogon policy is based on what the community wants? That we tend to be a democracy-based site?

If you agree with that, then would you also agree that such a philosophy leads itself toward pleasing the people? If that is the case (which, you know, it is), then doing something that will displease people simply because they have not spoken out is foolish. Yes, we should cater to the majority. But there is this thing called a com-pro-mise. Or should we say "Screw the minorities. masterful wants something." Please tell me that you actually understand this time.

Thank you for actually repudiating.
1)The TR set is not broken. I don't know if someone has been saying ti is, but I do not subscribe to that notion. (Yet CB Bug Bite Scizor is still niche)
2)Latias can Roar, true, yet Rank will take no hazard damage, and you will only be able ot set up one CM at best (assuming you Roar him into a bad poke against Latias), and you will be easily revenged. Meanwhile, you will have taken at least 37% damage and gotten little to no benefit besides 1 free CM

1) I agree with you. But this an example of you saying something, and therefore it becomes true. This is why people disagree with you most of the time.

2) Why is a CM little to no benefit on a pokemon with 110 Sp Atk and 110 Spe? And an excellent STAB?

 

[Jaroda]

Your argument is absurd. Stall is a much more useful and ubiquitous playstyle than mono-normal, don't act like they're the same. If an entirely viable strat is rendered unusable by a single poke, that poke is broken. It's pretty simple. What your saying is a logical fallacy, a weak analogy, and acting as if it solidifies your argument entirely when it is far less relevant than you believe.

My example was clearly hyperbolic, of course it's not legitimate like stall. I'm not arguing about the merits of the playstyles, I'm arguing that protecting playstyles is not something to ban pokemon over. Skymin was broken against EVERYTHING. Darkrai was broken against EVERYTHING. Reuniclus is broken against stall, but more specifically, heavy stall... So what? I've heard a few people say there team has had trouble with it, but I'm hearing a lot MORe people say that they've worked around it. If it were broken and Uber worthy it would be unmanageable no matter what playstyle you're running. That's what I'm trying to say.

 

[masterful]

Hearing you complain about personal attacks is probably sig-worthy. Just sayin'.

I am going to calmly and rationally dispute what you say. Would you agree that (in general) the Smogon policy is based on what the community wants? That we tend to be a democracy-based site?

If you agree with that, then would you also agree that such a philosophy leads itself toward pleasing the people? If that is the case (which, you know, it is), then doing something that will displease people simply because they have not spoken out is foolish. Yes, we should cater to the majority. But there is this thing called a com-pro-mise. Or should we say "Screw the minorities. masterful wants something." Please tell me that you actually understand this time.

IF THERE IS NO MINORITY, I'M NOT CATERING TO ANYONE. That's what I'm saying If no one disputes the characteristics, you are simply arguing with me for absolutely no reason. A minority still must EXIST to warrant respect. Like I said, if someone comes on here and disputes the characteristics, I will deal with it then. As for now, you are just wasting my time and your own by arguing for argument's sake. I'm not going to say any more on the topic if you simply repeat what you have said in your last 2 posts without actually logically refuting my point

 

[KurashiDragon]

@Masterful

1. The TR set is actually the second reason why people have been all ban happy with Reuniclus. They say it's rather easy to break hyper offensive teams with TR teams. I personally don't see how even when I had no knowledge on Reuniclus. It's TR set is much easier to break because it has to sacrifice bulk and recover in order to run the TR set. Therefore it should be rather easy for Hyper Offensive users to combat by taking advantage of this. Actually, I think even Scizor's U-turn can OHKO 252/0 Reuniclus.

Edit: Yep Scizor's 252 ev CB U-turn does 103.3 - 121.7% to 252/0 Reuniclus. So Scizor can function as a counter beyond the CM set.

2. Like I said I may have gotten the evs wrong. (Though likely not.) 252/0 evs Latias takes 30.5 - 36.0% from a +1 Psycho Shock. Absolutely viable IMO.

 

[SlimMan]

IF THERE IS NO MINORITY, I'M NOT CATERING TO ANYONE. That's what I'm saying If no one disputes the characteristics, you are simply arguing with me for absolutely no reason. A minority still must EXIST to warrant respect. Like I said, if someone comes on here and disputes the characteristics, I will deal with it then. As for now, you are just wasting my time and your own by arguing for argument's sake. I'm not going to say any more on the topic if you simply repeat what you have said in your last 2 posts without actually logically refuting my point

I could argue that there must be a minority,or you wouldn't have said "Read the characteristics! They define what we want!" I could argue that if everyone agreed with them, then it wouldn't be necessary to explain that to someone. masterful, I like how flaming is considered logic when you use it, but the opposite is true for other people.

And because I'm "arguing for the sake of it" I might as well continue. I like your new avy.

 

[KurashiDragon]

In response to your earlier post about why Reuniclus' attack is doing so much to Latias who has the reasonable 110 special bulk, it's because Reuniclus is using Psycho Shock not psychic. I would truly be surprised if a psychic could do that much to latias and I would actually be in support of a ban lol.

Actually I read your post wrong sorry. However, what he was referring to was that while Reuniclus wont be taking any damage from that roar (as magic guard prevents passive damage from the entry hazards) Latias in the end will have taken 37% damage from that 1 psycho shock. I actually think that's not worth it either. However, if Latias could run 252 HP evs (like I'm thinking it might.) that would be a much better scenario. (Taking 30% min is perfectly workable IMO)

Edit: You know now that I actually think about it, Latias seems like its perfectly viable to run a stall set. I think I might try and see if I can find something Latias could use for that. It's got alot of support options and perfectly viable recovery options so mabye. I might try that at some point and see if it'll work.

 

[SlimMan]

In response to your earlier post about why Reuniclus' attack is doing so much to Latias who has the reasonable 110 special bulk, it's because Reuniclus is using Psycho Shock not psychic. I would truly be surprised if a psychic could do that much to latias and I would actually be in support of a ban lol.

Once again, I assume this wasn't aimed at me?

 

[KurashiDragon]

no it was and I edited my post because I misread your words. Take another look.

 

[SlimMan]

@ Kurashi
I read your post, but I wasn't saying Reuniclus takes damage from Roar. I was saying that having a Latias at +1/+1 is not "little to no benefit" like masterful said it was.

I wonder how much Reuniclus takes from a STAB +1 Dragon Pulse as it switches back in.

 

[Jaroda]

Latias has 130 SpD btw.

Latias has the advantage with access to Roar, much better special bulk, and is faster. Also, Reuniclus' common attacks both are NFE against Latias, whereas every Latias has Dragon Pulse. Either can carry Shadow Ball if they REALLY want to though, although Latias has many better options.

 

[KurashiDragon]

252 ev Neutral nature +1 Dragon Pulse does 53.1 - 62.5% to 252/0 Neutral Nature Reuniclus. This is of course with no item and no nature because apart from moveset I really dont know about Latias' CMRoar set.

@Jaroda

Still Reuniclus does have access to Psycho Shock and while Latias is trying to Roar it out Reuniclus will be using Psycho shock for 37%min to 0/0 latias. With 252/0 it would be 30%min

 

[SlimMan]

252 ev Neutral nature +1 Dragon Pulse does 53.1 - 62.5% to 252/0 Neutral Nature Reuniclus. This is of course with no item and no nature because apart from moveset I really dont know about Latias' CMRoar set.

@Jaroda

Still Reuniclus does have access to Psycho Shock and while Latias is trying to Roar it out Reuniclus will be using Psycho shock for 37%min to 0/0 latias. With 252/0 it would be 30%min

Dragon Pulse is a 2HKO even if Reuniclus has Leftovers.
Also, Latias can use Recover to get that 37% back.

 

[Slurray]

Seems like Scizor decimates Reuniclus. How hard would it be to fit on a stall team?

 

[astrohawke]

This goes out to not just you, but everyone debating here and anywhere else on this forum, please read the characteristics of a desirable metagame, it outlines what we as a community want the meta to be like and offers explanation for many proposed bans. Rank destroys stall, creating less variety in the meta, an undesirable situation

The problem is rankurusu is not the only pokemon that makes full stall so hard to use without using "bad" (and I use this in the loosest way possible) pokemon or "niche" strategies. It's just the current one being scrutinized. So the question is do you ban a ton of pokemon so full stall can work again or do you just let it die and keep pokemon in the metagame. Which one really offers more variety?

The path you want to go down would result in banning more and more pokemon because as new gens come out, there are new and more powerful threats that have to be dealt with by 6 pokemon. It's undeniable that full stall will eventually die and by banning every single threat that comes along and causes it problems, you're only delaying the inevitable and not really doing anything favorable for the metagame.

In any case, stall can still exist but you need at least some pokemon that can hit hard. Full stall just isn't that good anymore but it's not horrible either. You just have to expect that if you come up against one of the pokemon your particular choice of 6 pokemon can't deal with, you're going to get swept. For some teams, that's ranku, for others it could be terrakion or jarooda. I couldn't find room to fit in a mach puncher so I have problems with cloyster of all things.

On another note, I saw a sub/disable gengar that deals with CM rankurusu pretty well. It switches in on a CM/focus blast or after something dies. Then subs and disables the only move that hits it which is psychic or shadow ball and proceeds to kill with shadow ball.

 

[SJCrew]

I wonder how much Reuniclus takes from a STAB +1 Dragon Pulse as it switches back in.

Better yet, please explain to me why Rankurusu is switching right back into Latias as it sets up instead of an actual Latias counter.

 

[SlimMan]

Better yet, please explain to my why Rankurusu is switching right back into Latias as it sets up instead of an actual Latias counter.

Because those were the circumstances that masterful implied.