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Riolu QC [3/3] GP [2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Punchshroom, Mar 11, 2013.

  1. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    [​IMG]
    [Overview]

    <p>Anyone who's played against or with Riolu should have an inkling of what it does: priority phazing. What makes it so dangerous is that if you are caught with hazards on your field, unable to halt Riolu's first Roar, and without any priority users, you are basically dead in the water against its antics of continuously forcing your Pokemon in and out of battle, which ensures your defeat will not be a quick and merciful one. That said, its low base stats, most notably Speed, hold it back from being totally unstoppable. It also requires a tremendous amount of support, with hazard setters and spinblockers being mandatory in order to be successful. The payoff can be very satisfying though if you can pull off the Roar chain with nothing being able to stop you, so potential victims shouldn't underestimate this NFE lest they risk their demise.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Priolu
    move 1: Roar
    move 2: Copycat
    move 3: Substitute / Protect
    move 4: Protect / Drain Punch / Toxic
    item: Eviolite
    ability: Prankster
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>For those who don't know what Riolu does, here's the gist of it. Prankster negligibly boosts Roar's priority to -5, but more importantly boosts Copycat's priority to +1. What this means is that once you get Riolu into battle (preferably unscathed and free from status), use Roar the first turn. Riolu can then immediately copy its own Roar and shuffle the opponent again. Because Roar remains the only move last used, as the opponent didn't get to attack, Riolu gets to start a chain of Roars which the opponent is unable to stop unless they themselves have priority that can outspeed Riolu's (though Sucker Punch will fail, it can still disrupt the Copycat chain), so keep that in mind. However, also note that if you do anticipate an opponent's (faster!) priority attack, going for the manual Roar again allows you to keep the chain going without taking a stronger hit.</p>

    <p>Copycat itself has uses other than copying Roar: occasionally it can be used to copy an opponent's attack, such as Sawk's or Primeape's Close Combat or Fraxure's Outrage, to finish it off should it be weakened. Be aware that Riolu's Special Attack is much too low to be able to do the same to most special attackers, unless they are clinging on with a sliver of health or have poor defenses and powerful moves. If the opponent cannot KO Riolu before its first Roar, status is the next best option to halt its efforts. A Prankster Substitute can block such attempts and allow Riolu to phaze unhindered. Protect works very well with Copycat, as it allows Riolu to be temporarily invulnerable to copy an opponent's move right back at them. The most common scenario you should be using this tactic for is when facing a Taunt user, as Riolu can block the Taunt and then copy it right back to prevent the opponent from using the move.</p>

    <p>Substitute and Protect generally make for the best combo, but the last move can be used instead to improve Riolu's chances against certain opponents. Drain Punch gives Riolu a form of recovery and pairs well with Substitute, but its main utility is to swiftly remove most opponents that put up resistance to Riolu's Roaring chain, notably Magic Coat Bastiodon, Fake Out Kangaskhan, and Prankster Liepard. Copycat can form a good combo with Drain Punch, as it can be used to launch two consecutive blows on faster opponents, essentially dishing out a 150 Base Power STAB move that heals Riolu before its opponent's subsequent attack, an excellent weapon against frail opponents. It also gives Riolu a weapon to fight back directly against the opponent's last Pokemon, which cannot be Roared out. Toxic is even more potent than Drain Punch against that last Pokemon, though it is pretty much used exclusively for that situation. On the other hand, it does form a good combo with Protect for stalling poison damage.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Given Riolu's resistances and how often Riolu is on the receiving end of priority moves, maximizing physical bulk with a spread of 252 HP / 252 Def with an Impish nature is the best way to go, as this drastically reduces the amount of damage taken from these moves and enhances Riolu's effectiveness. Eviolite only helps in this regard. The last 4 EVs can be thrown in Speed, Special Defense, or Attack. However, Pokemon in the base 60 Speed range either have no priority moves to outspeed Riolu or run max Speed anyway, so investing in Speed will rarely prove game-changing. The same also applies for Attack and Special Defense, as the boost is usually too insignificant to be of any real help. Alternatively, a spread of 224 HP / 252 Def / 32 Spe with a Jolly nature allows Riolu to outspeed Jolly Carracosta's Aqua Jet while 68 Speed EVs with the spread 188 HP / 252 Def / 68 Spe outpaces max Speed non-Jolly Golem, but notably detracts from Riolu's ability to withstand other faster priority.</p>

    <p>Riolu's main targets are opponents that rely on just attacks (that don't KO) alone or defensive Pokemon that rely on status as their main form of damage. For the former, opponents such as Golem, Piloswine, Gurdurr, Kangaskhan, Primeape, Carracosta, and Scolipede can be Roared against, although Riolu will have to take a beating (sometimes a near fatal one) to do so. Taking advantage of a resisted or weaker Choice attack, such as Stone Edge or Ice Punch, is also another way to do this. For defensive Pokemon, using Substitute to block their attempts at status can buy Riolu time to Roar or cripple them with their own moves thanks to Copycat, while the likes of uninvested Miltank's Body Slam, Alomomola's Waterfall, uninvested Regirock's Earthquake and Lickilicky's Dragon Tail cannot break Riolu's Substitute in one hit, though this is assuming maximum physical defense. An intact Substitute also provides an excellent insurance against faster priority while chain phazing.</p>

    <p>While Riolu can hold its own against the opponent's efforts to stop it, it still needs support to function at its best. Entry hazards are mandatory to utilize Riolu's priority Roars, as with Stealth Rock and Spikes on the field, few opponents can survive the onslaught. Toxic Spikes are useful to speed up the process, but aren't mandatory. Scolipede, Garbodor, and Roselia are among the premier Spikers in the tier, as they can deal with most offensive threats, physical threats, and special threats respectively and can throw in Toxic Spikes while soaking them up for good measure. However, be aware that every Spiker in NU bar Glalie shares weaknesses with Riolu, so a good defensive core to handle Psychic- and/or Flying-type threats is highly recommended. A Stealth Rock user is in the same boat, being crucial for Riolu's success. Fortunately, not only are they numerous, but they also (usually) cover up both Riolu and the Spiker's weaknesses. Golem, Regirock, Carracosta, and Metang are just a few options to consider for the slot. A spinblocker is necessary to prevent the opponent from wasting your efforts with a single Rapid Spin. Misdreavus has the greatest survivability among the spinblockers in NU, but other Ghost-types such as Frillish, Golurk, and Haunter can still work to a degree. Finally, cleric support gives Riolu a second chance should its chain be threatened or disrupted by powerful priority or status. Teammates that know Wish and/or Heal Bell are fantastic options, with Lickilicky, Audino, Altaria, Misdreavus, or Alomomola being notable candidates.</p>

    <p>The trick to using Riolu is to find an opportunity to safely Roar against an opponent that can't KO Riolu or has trouble breaking its Substitute, such as one using a weaker Choice attack. While Riolu can go toe-to-toe against most priority attacks, it definitely appreciates them out of the way first, as Riolu is forced to play mindgames or take damage: if the opponent predicts you will manually Roar, he or she may simply hit Riolu with a more powerful move, Taunt, or a status condition, which will indefinitely cripple Riolu. One should also take note of the opponent's abilities and watch out for Soundproof, Suction Cups, Trace, and Prankster, as they can disrupt your chain, the former two without even trying. Thankfully, Soundproof and Suction Cups Pokemon have better abilities to use, making them less common.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Roar + Copycat, while potent, is pretty much all Riolu has going for it, so other playstyle options are out of the question. Focus Sash allows Riolu to phaze against much stronger threats, but is greatly inferior to Eviolite, which grants Riolu greater staying power, allows it to take priority attacks, and isn't rendered useless by entry hazards. Other movepool options include Iron Defense and Agility, which bolster Riolu's ability to withstand priority and make it much harder to outpace with priority, respectively. However, Riolu should generally try to start the chain as soon as possible, as one timely switch on its setup move and it loses a golden opportunity, not to mention neither move guards against status. Crunch is pretty much only for Natu, who is so rare it is hardly worth considering and should be handled by teammates anyway.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Riolu is easiest to stop on the turn it first uses Roar. If you can KO, status, or Taunt it, you're in the clear (though keep in mind that Taunt can backfire). However, once it gets started, stopping it becomes that much trickier. Magic Coat is the easiest way to stop Riolu, though fitting it on a team can be hard and the most popular user, Bastiodon, loses to Riolu's Drain Punch. Common misconceptions that priority easily stops it are set straight if the Riolu user manually Roars on that turn. Nonetheless, Riolu can still be brought down with repeated bashings of priority, though whether or not it's too late for your team depends on how often Roar brings in your priority user. Moves with even higher priority, such as Fake Out, ExtremeSpeed, and Protect, can stop the chain even if the user is naturally slower than Riolu, though using Protect brings the risk of giving Riolu a free Substitute, while users of Fake Out or ExtremeSpeed are either weak to Fighting and/or are just so frail that Riolu can beat them down with Drain Punch. Pokemon with certain abilities can halt Riolu's advances, such as those with Soundproof, Magic Bounce, Suction Cups, Trace, and ironically Prankster; Magic Guard and Regenerator can also prevent or counteract the damage from entry hazards Riolu's constant shuffling forces. Rapid Spin drastically reduces Riolu's effectiveness, as it needs entry hazards to fully take advantage of its priority-shuffling. At the end of the day, you simply have to outplay Riolu. Knowing when to throw out a priority move or hit Riolu with your strongest move, status, or Taunt amidst a Roaring chain is key to defeating Riolu.</p>
  2. Alonsoforever

    Alonsoforever

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    For this to be QCed it should be a skeleton.

    I think that the best set is Substitute, Drain Punch, Roar, Copycat, because Substitute gives Riolu many chances to set up. Of course Protect is useful, but I think Substitute is better, and that Drain Punch is necessary. You're listing a few calculations, of offensive Pokémon, however, you should list a few others of Defensive Pokémon that cannot do over 25% with their moves, such as Defensive Miltank Body Slam:

    4 Atk Miltank Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Riolu: 61-73 (21.47 - 25.7%)
    0 Atk Lickilicky Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Riolu: 31-37 (10.91 - 13.02%) (Riolu's Substitute may survive two hits and hit Lickilicky with Drain Punch)
    0 Atk Lickilicky Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Riolu: 66-78 (23.23 - 27.46%)
    0 Atk Regirock Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Riolu: 58-69 (20.42 - 24.29%)
    0 Atk Alomomola Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Riolu: 55-66 (19.36 - 23.23%)

    Also, Murkrow should be mentioned in the checks and counters section, because it outspeeds Riolu and can stop it with a priority Taunt.
  3. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Whoops, I ripped this straight out of the provided template. Will work on that.

    I've been conflicted between Drain Punch, Substitute and Protect for a long time now. The advantage Protect has over Substitute is that Riolu can scout a move without losing health or being Taunted, while Substitute is only really effective against more defensive teams, as everything else wants to shoot Riolu down and usually KOs me or leaves me crippled, decreasing Substitute's viability while Protect remains useful regardless of Riolu's health. The calcs you provided are helpful though, and definitely serve to highlight Substitute's usefulness.

    I did mention Murkrow in the checks and counters section as a Prankster user.

    Edit: Drain Punch isn't as mandatory as you make it out to be. The last two moves are best suited to help Riolu get the first Roar off safely/uninterrupted, but Drain Punch isn't designed for this role. It is very helpful for its damage and recovery (hence why I listed it as the primary slash), but it isn't something Riolu can't go without.
  4. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    If anything, Riolu doesn't need Drain Punch. SubProtect is so much better it isn't even funny. Metang can safely remove Bastiodon and Cradily, the biggest problems, anyway with Earthquake and Toxic+Meteor Mash respectively.

    And yes, I used Riolu quite a few times on Punchshroom's team, and ended up giving Drain Punch the boot because I just NEVER used it in a large number of battles.
  5. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    It is quite apparent that each Riolu user has had varying amounts of success with the last three moves. I'm not quite sure which one to slash right now...
  6. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    If it is allowed, you could write it this way:

    move 1: Roar
    move 2: Copycat
    move 3: Drain Punch / Substitute / Protect
    move 4: Drain Punch / Substitute / Protect
  7. Agent Gibbs

    Agent Gibbs

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    I've used this before, and I have to say that I found Substitute to be a lot more useful than Protect overall. Without Substitute, you run the risk of being hit by Toxic or Thunder Wave from the likes of Alomomola, Regirock, etc. if you try to phaze them out. Sure, you can scout for that with Protect, but then you know it isn't safe to start the phazing chain and you'll have to switch out. With Substutite, however, you can safely set up on those, block any status, survive a hit to your Sub (which might give you some insurance later), and go to town. I also agree that I never found much use for Drain Punch. Even if I ran out of Copycat PP (kinda rare), I found myself phazing with normal Roar more often than actually attacking with Drain Punch. Protect was still pretty situational, mainly for scouting, stalling for passive damage (i.e. poison or burn), and running down PP, but I probably used it a bit more when I tested it over Drain Punch. I'd honestly prefer if Substitute were the primary option with Protect / Drain Punch slashed in the fourth slot (the actual order could be swapped, I suppose). That's my two cents on that.

    Also, I notice that you mention Roselia and Garbador as Spikes partners, but I think you could also toss in a mention for the fact that they both absorb the occasional Toxic Spikes. It's not a huge deal since Toxic Spikes are fairly rare, but they do screw over Riolu pretty badly, so I think it definitely deserves a mention.
  8. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Made the changes.
  9. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    The thing about Drain Punch is that it allows Riolu to chip in and remove his own checks without switching out/relying on teammates to do so. The likes of Quick Attack Zangoose, Extreemespeed Linoone/Pikachu, Magic Coat Bastiodon and Fake Out Persian are in for it should they take a Drain Punch to the face (which I can usually Copycat again for that double whammy). Even if say, Persian Taunts Riolu, Riolu would not have to worry about Persian later on in the match as it takes the KO. It's really good against frail priority users (even Swellow, but that's pretty risky :P), but Sub is easily better against defensively oriented teams. Of course, if you can easily remove all priority users from battle before Riolu hits the field, Drain Punch is less necessary (which is why I assume Drain Punch is seldomly used by you two).

    Yes, it's true you will rarely use Drain Punch (I will concede this), but I can safely say each time I actually do use Drain Punch it has yet to fail me.

    Ready for QC checks.
  10. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    This is a very detailed skeleton, great job!

    I'll agree with the other posts in this thread that Drain Punch is probably the least the useful move in the set. I think it would be better off as:

    [SET]
    name: Shuffling
    move 1: Roar
    move 2: Copycat
    move 3: Substitute
    move 4: Protect
    item: Eviolite
    ability: Prankster
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

    Drain Punch can go to AC as the frailer Taunt users are not common at all and this can beat Skuntank with Protect on Taunt + Copycat. (Although with proper prediction it can just Sucker Punch on the Copycat and force more prediction games, so mention that) Drain Punch is actually not needed for Bastiodon as Riolu is faster than it and can Roar before Bastiodon does. (Unless it's Soundproof Bastiodon, but that ability on it is even more uncommon than Bastiodon itself) Cradily is very uncommon and is usually running Storm Drain over Suction Cups anyways, while Liepard is going to be using a Swagger set and can just be manually Roared out.

    Keep all the good things you mentioned about Drain Punch such as being able to chain them with Copycat and move it to AC. In the sentence when you talk about Shadow Tag and Arena Trap users, only talk about Gothorita as it does a better job at trapping in general. Add in Kangaskhan in C&C as it's the most prominent user of Fake Out in NU and also has quite a bit of bulk to its name unlike the other Fake Out users that you make a reference to.

    I trust you to get these implemented in an effective manner so I'll give you a stamp right away. Good job with this, keep it up.

    [QC]1/3[/QC]
  11. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Thanks for the QC check, it's been sitting here for a while now!

    I'm still hesitant to put Drain Punch into AC, as while it rarely sees use, the times where it is used it has proven invaluable, usually overcoming PP stall wars. Thanks to it, I've been able to beat a Wish/Protect/Heal Bell/Toxic Lickilicky much more quickly than if I had been unable to attack and risk getting PP stalled (you have to consider a great deal of Copycat PP have been used before this, while Lickilicky didn't get to move much thanks to yours truly). It's not Soundproof Bastiodon (lol) that I'm worried about, it's Magic Coat Bastiodon, the most common user of the move (and by extension, Probopass), who easily bypasses my faster Roar advantage and sit its ass down Magic Coating while I can do nothing but waste PP or switch, losing my momentum. If I have a Heal Bell user handy, I can take a Thunder Wave and take Liepard out of the match; if I don't Liepard can take potshots at me with Foul Play as I manually Roar until my Sub breaks and leaves me vulnerable next time Liepard is phazed back in (Much of this applies to Extreemespeed users as well). That said, the rarer but much more potent Encore Liepard can still pose issues as it still bypasses Sub and I can't smack it with Drain Punch.

    ...Yeah, definitely not going in AC, though it is the least recommended option on the set for a reason. Substitute's importance is higlighted quite a number of times, perhaps I should change it to(?):
    [SET]
    name: Shuffling
    move 1: Roar
    move 2: Copycat
    move 3: Substitute
    move 4: Protect / Drain Punch
    item: Eviolite
    ability: Prankster
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
  12. ebeast

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    Works for me. Just make sure to point out that Bastiodon and Liepard aren't really very relevant in the first place. Liepard may have high usage on the ladder, but in terms of how much it does in a real competitive environment, it simply doesn't enjoy the same nearly amount of usage. Probopass doesn't use Magic Coat and isn't as common as it once was.

    EDIT: I never said anything about Bastiodon being unviable, just that it isn't a very common sight in competitive battles. How can Liepard be "more relevant that it lets on"? Again I never said anything it being unviable(although Swagger sets aren't even good, along with anything that relies on luck to do anything), it simply is never used in competitive matches which is what an analysis should be for. I would not consider the PS ladder to be very competitive. Remove Probopass from C&C because like I already said it doesn't use Magic Coat. The "it isn't as common as it once was" was referring to Probopass itself and not Magic Coat on Probo. On the write up just make sure to put less emphasis on Basti, Cradily, and Liepard, but still mention them. Just wanted us to be clear on that.
  13. Punchshroom

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    Trust me, as a Liepard user this feline is a lot more relevant than it lets on (T-Wave variants are ass though, as Encore varinats are a lot more effective at disruption imo). Bastiodon is still an excellent member of stall, and I can't throw out Copycat Roars willy-nilly if it is around (the fact FLCL uses Magic Coat Bastiodon justifies its crediblity).

    Yeah you're right on this one: just because it can learn Magic Coat doesn't mean it should, and it is seen less nowadays. I suppose Aasgier's Magic Coat Leavanny (grr) put me on high alert for potential users. Changes implemented.

    Edit:
    I'm sorry, for a second there I thought you were questioning Liepard's competitive viability....On the off chance you were, outside of its extremely annoying utillity, Liepard stands out as one of the best Psychic and Ghost checks in the entire tier thanks to its magnificent speed. Being able to OHKO Golurk is also something it boasts over Skuntank, as is its ability to dodge Will-o-Wisps, Tricks and Destiny Bonds thanks to Prankster Sub and Encore.

    Perhaps, though I would like to know your definition of "competitive" in that sense.

    Got that already.

    When I made the statement that Bastiodon and Liepard were more relevant, I was referring to their ability to potentially stop Riolu's chain. Magic Coat sees use on Bastiodon as it is often on the receiving end of Taunt or status; Liepard's own Prankster ability forces Riolu to play differently (Encore Liepard flat out forces Riolu out). This is something I have to worry about whenever I see one of them on the opposing team. Probopass, Cradily and Electrode are considered less relevant not because of how uncommon they are, but because they usually do not carry the right move/ability to stop Riolu, making them non-issues as opposed to roadblocks.
  14. FLCL

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    i would slash toxic in the last slot since it gives riolu something to do against the last pokemon after it finishes roaring. you can also stall a bit with substitute + toxic if you're in a tight situation where you're not able to roar the opponent out.
  15. Punchshroom

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    The thing about Toxic is that Riolu either still loses or is better off Copycatting the opponent's moves instead. There's also the issue that it eats up one of Riolu's valuable moveslots, and is the least recommended as it does not help Riolu achieve its main goal. It is noteworthy though, but now I'll have to edit the slashes differently.

    Edit: Included Scolipede, Munchlax and Primeape in the analysis.
  16. Alonsoforever

    Alonsoforever

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    I know it is possible to start a chain against opposing Scolipede, but in that situation, isn't it too risky? I mean, 98% max is a big chance of an OHKO after Stealth Rock. Furthermore, if the opponent is using Scolipede, even though it's offensive, it may run Spikes (or even worse for Riolu, Toxic Spikes), which will almost ensure the KO, making it hard for Riolu to set up that first Roar.

    I am just asking this because I don't have that many experience with Riolu unlike you, and I wanted to know why that calc means something. If I had Riolu in against an opposing Scolipede in that +2 Swarm situation, I would not try starting the shuffling chain, I'd switch out (of course, if the chain has started I'd kept on using Copycat)
  17. Punchshroom

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    That was simply a demonstration of how Riolu can start the chain against most, if not all Scolipedes, seeing as even the strongest ones can't OHKO the little tyke. Riolu can switch in on pretty much anything Pede does (especially Baton Passing sets): SD, Megahorn, or its coverage moves (aside from the rare/least recommended Poison Jab) are easily soaked up while Riolu can start Roaring (though usually it's do or die here). Point is, Scolipede is not Riolu's best opportunity, but is definitely the most common, so it has to be mentioned.

    Of course, if you are careless enough to let a Swarmed Bug Gem Pede get that SD, you're pretty boned anyway without priority or a Scarfer.
  18. Raseri

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    I hope you're not using all those calcs in the analysis, cut it down to just a few for the write up. Otherwise this is really good. [qc]2/3[/qc]
  19. Punchshroom

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    Thanks, but should I even use any calcs in the first place, seeing as most analyses don't have any? But Riolu's potential bulk should be emphasized..
  20. Raseri

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    ya on second thought i wouldnt use any, as none of them are that pivotal for Riolu
  21. ebeast

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    If you're not aware already, write-ups are made after the 2nd QC check and then checked over by the 3rd QC member. Go ahead and write this up and either me or someone else will get to it.
  22. Aasgier

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    I assume he wasn't aware, as Punchshroom told me he already wrote this up before he made the skeleton. I'll mention it to him when I see him on Showdown if he doesn't read this first.
  23. Punchshroom

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  24. Punchshroom

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    Added a new spread of 224 HP / 252 Def / 32 Spd @ Jolly in AC.
  25. ebeast

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    This is honestly a really good analysis but it does contain some fluff in it in the Overview, which Zeb specifically requested should be removed completely or at least kept to a minimum.

    Overview: Remove the first two lines. Try to add a bit more information about Riolu, maybe explain to the reader how Copycat + Roar works and why it's dangerous to be caught in the cycle.

    Aside from that I don't see anything else wrong with it, but I'll give a window of opportunity for another QC member to look at it and see if they spot anything. Don't worry this should move onto GP shortly, thanks for waiting.

    EDIT: Forgot to mention that there should be a space between the tags (read: [Overview], [SET COMMENTS]..etc) and the actual writing. Do this for all of the tags except for [SET]

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