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BW RU Rise of Mangoose

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by Molk, May 1, 2013.

  1. Molk

    Molk mfw zoroark
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    RU Leader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    3,440
    [​IMG]
    credit to ebeast for making the banner for me :)!


    Introduction

    Sup everyone, my name is Molk, and this is my first RMT in quite a while (i think my last one was Mach Aviation, the team with Swellow during the Nidoqueen meta). So anyways, things have changed quite a bit since i last posted that team, i now have well over 2000 posts, i've recieved CC, and most notably: i've gotten RU mods since then, something i never expected myself to get after all the trouble i caused on the forums and irc tbh, so thanks to all of you who supported me in getting them, it means a lot :>. The metagame's changed quite a bit since then as well, more NU threats such as Alomomola are starting to get more popular, and Nidoqueen's finally left the tier after about 9 months, something quite a few RU players had been waiting for for a long time (i personally didn't have a problem with Nidoqueen, but i know for a fact that several other people certainly did). I started using this team during the final part of the queen meta, (actually its the team i got reqs with) and its been one of my favorite teams since i've started playing Pokemon, so i decided to post it for all of you to enjoy :).

    This team started out when blarajan asked me on irc to help him out with building a team around Swellow for one of his spl matches, and after about two days of teambuilding, tweaking sets, and testing the team on the ladder we decided it was ready for use. Sadly, although the original version of the team was in fact very good, blara still ended up losing because of a Scald Burn on Druddigon during an important part of the match. Nontheless, i thought the team held its own, especially given the match was still only a 1-0 even given that bout of bad luck, so i decided to make a few modifications to the team, even replacing the Pokemon the team was originally build around, and started using it on the ladder and on RUgged Mountain myself. After the modifications i made i was quite happy with how the team performed, although i still change some Pokemon and evs around occasionally just for fun (Swellow's original teamslot is what changes the most, pretty much any offensive Normal-type can work decently there from my experience, although i prefer Zangoose because of its sheer wallbreaking ability).

    The team itself is a bulky offense team built around setting up as many entry hazards as possible, using Druddigon and Qwilfish's defensive typing and bulk to set up multiple layers easily, eventually leading up to a late game Zangoose sweep. Offensive Cryogonal keeps hazards off of my side of the field with Rapid Spin and its ability to pressure most of the spinblockers, while providing a decent check to things like Blizzspammers with its reliable recovery, ice resist, and good special bulk. Entei and Rotom-C serve as my revenge killers, and between the two of them very few Pokemon can attempt to run through my team without getting revenge killed rather quickly. Entei and Rotom-C can take advantage of the hazards Druddigon and Qwilfish set too, giving me more methods to pressure the opposing team even if Zangoose ends up being KO'd early on in the match.

    I'm rather happy with how the team's performing at the moment, but i'm rather curious as to how other forum members might be able to improve it, while its a very solid team, there are a few holes that could be covered, such as the lack of a rock resist, if you think you have a good way to improve the team be sure to leave a rate :).


    A First Glance:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    A Closer Look:

    [​IMG]
    Druddigon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Outrage
    - Sucker Punch
    - Earthquake

    Druddigon's just amazing in RU at the moment, it was a great Pokemon back in BW1 RU too, but the new movepool additions and metagame shifts that BW2 brought on have turned Druddigon into a top tier threat, that pretty much every team needs to be prepared for. Anyways, Druddigon serves as my team's Stealth Rock setter, using its bulk, ability to force switches, and typing to reliably set it up multiple times a match if needed, and also checks many common threats for me such as Lilligant, Sceptile, Rotom-C, Manectric, Magmortar, Cinccino (switching Rough Skin Drudd into tail slap is fun) Entei, and Slowking (watch out for the possible Scald burn though ;-;). Outside of this, Druddigon has the power and coverage to be a really potent offensive threat, and it usually gets at least one KO a match if i play well. STAB Outrage in RU is incredibly dangerous, with very few good resistances to it being available, the only real downside to Outrage is being locked into it for a few turns after the initial attack, preventing me from switching out Drudd when i might really need to, although this doesn't happen as often as you might think. Earthquake rounds out Drudd's coverage, hitting many of the Steel-types the resist Dragon such as Steelix and Klinklang super effectively, it also lets me hit various Ground weak Pokemon such as Entei and Kabutops hard when being locked into Outrage would be unfavorable for me. Lastly, Sucker Punch makes Druddigon a decent revenge killer, allowing me to use it to pick off various weakened/frail threats if Entei/Rotom-C are either down or crippled. The evs i gave Druddigon are pretty simple, they make Druddigon as powerful and bulky as possible, while letting me outspeed minimum Speed Tangrowth, plus a little more Speed to help me outrun opposing Druddigon, Outraging them before they can Outrage/Dragon Claw me.

    [​IMG]
    Cryogonal @ Icicle Plate
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 60 HP / 252 SAtk / 196 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Ice Beam
    - Rapid Spin
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]
    - Recover

    When blarajan and i first started off this team with Swellow, we knew we'd need a spinner for sure given how easily Swellow gets worn down with Stealth Rock on the field. After some thought, we decided to use offensive Hidden Power Fighting Cryogonal over Kabutops as our spinner to help out against hail abusers such as Glaceon and Walrein a bit more and to lessen the Volt Switch weakness the team had. Although i no longer have Swellow on this team, i still find Cryogonal's Rapid Spin support very useful, as most of my team is grounded and Cryogonal itself is the only Pokemon on my team with reliable recovery, meaning multiple layers can get annoying fast when left unchecked. Cryogonal still serves the role of helping out Against Blizzspammers such as Glaceon, Walrein, and Rotom-F as well, only really fearing Toxic or well played Volt Switching with Stealth Rock up on my side. I used Icicle Plate over Life Orb on Cryogonal to help lessen recoil while still giving a similar power boost, making it easier to keep cryo alive for as long as it has to be to pull off a Rapid Spin, and also makes it a little less reliant on Recover. Ice Beam is the offensive move Cryogonal is using the most regardless, so it doesnt miss the boost on Hidden Power Fighting too much. Hidden Power Fighting was chosen over Hidden Power Fire and Hidden Power Ground to serve almost as a middle ground between the two. Like Hidden Power Fire, Hidden Power Fighting hits most of the hail sweepers super effectively (it actually hits Walrein harder than Fire), giving me an easier time taking them out and letting me easily break the Substitutes of subtect mons such as Glaceon and Walrein. Like Hidden Power Ground, Hidden Power Fighting also gets a relatively strong hit on Aggron and Omastar, both of which threaten my team, and also gives me a way to hit Kabutops hard on the switch, preventing it from using Cryogonal as an opportunity to Rapid Spin my hazards away. The Evs are aimed at letting Cryogonal hit as hard as possible, while giving it enough Speed to outrun max Speed Sigilyph, the rest are placed into HP for just a small amount of extra bulk.

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    Zangoose @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Toxic Boost
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Facade
    - Close Combat
    - Night Slash
    - Quick Attack

    You know, i really dont understand why Zangoose gets little to no usage in RU these days, from my experience its one of the most underrated Pokemon in the tier at the moment, and i think it definitely deserves way more usage. Zangoose serves as the late game cleaner and wallbreaker of the team, and with more and more slower, bulkier teams showing up because of Nidoqueen's abscence, Zangoose is arguably even more powerful than it was last meta, as it does a great job of demolishing these kinds of teams. After Toxic Boost activates, Zangoose's Facade becomes more powerful than even notoriously powerful moves such as CB Druddigon's Outrage and Adamant Scarf Medicham's Hi Jump Kick, giving it the ability to 2HKO pretty much every defensive Pokemon in the tier at worst, with only Physically defensive Steelix and Spiritomb even having a chance to avoid the 2HKO from all 3 of Facade, Close Combat, and Night Slash even Tangrowth falls to the mighty mongoose, getting 2HKO'd by Facade 100% of the time after Stealth Rock. Quick Attack gives Zangoose some more utility against more offensive teams, letting it pick off frailer threats that might attempt to revenge kill it, while also giving my team yet another way to revenge kill potential threats to my team before they can do too much damage. Although Zangoose's fraility makes it harder to activate the Toxic Orb, i almost always get the Toxic Boost on Zangoose during the match either via means of smart double switching, switching Zangoose in on a predicted Toxic, using Zangoose to revenge kill, or by using Rotom-C's Volt Switch to help get Zangoose in for free, so goose's lower defenses aren't as crippling as some people might think it is imo. Lastly, i'll list some damage calcs below to show just how dangerous Zangoose can be with the Toxic Orb activated, i think you'll be pretty impressed =).


    comparison between Zangoose (open)


    252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 175-207 (43.31 - 51.23%) -- 65.23% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Choice Band Druddigon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 187-222 (46.28 - 54.95%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 195-229 (48.26 - 56.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


    other calcs (open)


    252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 195-229 (48.26 - 56.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade vs. 248 HP / 144 Def Slowking: 321-378 (81.67 - 96.18%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 235-277 (61.19 - 72.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    -1 252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Qwilfish: 184-217 (55.08 - 64.97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regirock: 196-232 (53.84 - 63.73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Druddigon: 343-405 (96.89 - 114.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


    [​IMG]
    Qwilfish @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Spikes
    - Waterfall
    - Taunt
    - Thunder Wave

    Qwilfish is probably one of the more annoying Pokemon in RU at the moment, proving to be a nuisance to countless teams via a combination of Intimidate, Its good typing, and great support movepool. Qwilfish serves as this teams Spikes setter, defensive pivot, and glue, and like fellow hazard setter Druddigon checks many threatening Pokemon such as Escavalier, Durant, Entei, Emboar, Hitmonlee, and Hariyama. Outside of checking these threats, Qwilfish's Intimidate ability is still incredibly useful, making Qwilfish a decent emergency stop to pretty much every physical attacker in RU, whether it hard counters them or not. Taunt stops slower Pokemon such as hazards Omastar and Crustle from setting up their own hazards while Qwilfish attempts to set up Spikes, giving me the immediate advantage in these matchups. Taunt also lets Qwilfish stop slower Pokemon such as Bouffalant, Crawdaunt, and Omastar from setting up on Qwilfish while it attempts to set up Spikes, which is always nice. Thunder Wave helps prevent Pokemon from setting up on Qwilfish as well, crippling them and cutting their Speed even if they manage to get the boost, making them much easier to handle. Thunder Wave is useful for crippling switch ins as well, especially given that many Pokemon such as Sceptile, Lilligant, Rotom-C, and Rotom-N that commonly attempt to switch into Qwilfish absolutely hate being paralyzed, with their Speed being one of their most important assets. The speed evs i gave Qwilfish allow it to outspeed max speed Crawdaunt and Omastar, allowing me to either Taunt or Paralyze them before they can set up Substitute, Dragon Dance, or Shell Smash respectively. More or less Speed/Bulk can be run rather easily though, and the spread really depends on personal preference.

    [​IMG]
    Entei @ Choice Band
    Trait: Pressure
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Flare Blitz
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Stone Edge
    - Sleep Talk

    Entei is a rather simple Pokemon to be honest, and i'm sure anyone who's played RU for a significant amount of time knows what it does by now: breaks down defensive Pokemon who dont resist Fire-type attacks with its nuclear Flare Blitz, while also serving as a good revenge killer with Extremespeed and possibly as a sleep absorber with Sleep Talk. On this team Entei provides me with a way to reliably check and revenge kill a large amount of common Pokemon such as Sceptile, Lilligant (absorbs Sleep Powder too!), Accelgor, Galvantula, Hitmonlee, Gallade, Absol, Jynx, Hail sweepers, and pretty much anything thats been sufficiently weakened enough and doesn't resist ExtremeSpeed. It also gives me a secondary check to say Escavalier, who can't KO Entei with even CB Megahorn and gets OHKO'd by Flare Blitz in return. Although moves like Will-O-Wisp and Hidden Power Grass might seem appealing in Entei's last moveslot at first, i think Sleep Talk is by far the best option for a fourth move. Entei matches up well with pretty much all of the common sleep inducers in RU, switching into Lilligant, Amoonguss, Tangrowth, Lilligant, and Jynx with ease and forcing them out with ease, if they stay in, they risk getting OHKO'd by Flare Blitz or ExtremeSpeed. Lastly, although CB Entei can't fully stop Smeargle, the combination of Entei and Rotom-C handles the artist dog quite handily, with Rotom-C Volt Switching to Entei so it can absorb the Spore, while Entei outspeeds, Sleep Talks, and OHKO's Smeargle with any attack.

    [​IMG]
    Rotom-Mow @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 12 HP / 252 SAtk / 244 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Volt Switch
    - Leaf Storm
    - Thunderbolt
    - Trick

    Rotom-C is simply an awesome Pokemon, and it definitely deserves its recent promotion to low S rank on the RU viability thread imo, it has a lot of utility, and its powerful and versatile to boot :). Anyways, Choice Scarf Rotom-C serves as my secondary revenge killer, handily checking most of the threatening Pokemon that Entei can't cover, such as Crawdaunt, Kabutops, Feraligatr, Aerodactyl, and Rock Polish Aggron, and also revenge kills other Pokemon its teammates already cover just in case i have to sacrifice one during the match, such as Durant. Volt Switch is an amazing move as well, and because of Rotom-C's typing and ability to force switches, its absolutely amazing at racking up momentum for my team, using Rotom-C's Volt Switch as my opponent switches out is also one of my main ways to activate Zangoose's Toxic Orb for free, making mowtom an invaluable teammate in this regard. Because of Rotom-C's great Speed stat with Choice Scarf equipped, Rotom-C can clean up late game just like Zangoose and Entei, although not quite as easily because Rotom-C doesn't hit as hard as those two. Although it might look strange not to run max Speed on a Choice Scarfed Pokemon, the Speed evs serve a specific purpose: they make sure i always Volt Switch after other Scarf Rotom-C in a mirror match whether they're running a speed reducing Hidden Power or not, making sure i always get the switch advantage. I checked the RU Speed tiers before making this change, and i dont really lose out on anything bar Scarf Rotom-F, so i think the speed ev drop is a pretty good tradeoff (dont go any lower though, thats when you start losing out on important things. Lastly, Rotom-C forms a nice FWG core with Entei and Qwilfish, which is always really cool :>.



    Threatlist:

    I dont think there's anything out there that can outright 6-0 my team, i havent had a huge amount of trouble with much of anything. Nonetheless, every team has its flaws, and as such these Pokemon are harder for me to handle compared to the rest of the meta, these are the Pokemon i'd like you to try and focus on most while rating my team =).

    [​IMG]
    Aggron: This thing can be really annoying at times, especially Rock Polish variants. Most of my team is pretty vulnerable to Head Smash because of my lack of a Rock resistance, and while it doesn't have the easiest time switching in, it can still occasionally get in for free on Entei's ExtremeSpeed/Stone Edge, or when Druddigon's locked into Outrage and can proceed to wreak havoc from there. Qwilfish helps out a bit by softening its Head Smash with Intimidate but even with Intimidate factored in it still takes just about 80% from CB Head Smash, meaning i can't do this more than once ;-;. Rotom-C can revenge kill it too, while using Volt Switch to keep up the momentum if they try to withdraw Aggron, but its still an annoyance nontheless.

    [​IMG]
    Omastar: incredibly dangerous on paper if it can manage to get a boost, outspeeding and OHKOing even Rotom-C at +2, although the only Pokemon it can really set up a smash on is Choice locked Entei. Furthermore, Qwilfish can actually take a +2 Hydro Pump from full hp bar an absolute max damage roll and can paralyze Omastar in return, making it much easier to handle, nontheless, Omastar can still be rather scary, and if Qwilfish has taken a small amount of prior damage and Omastar gets the boost, i'm in trouble.

    [​IMG]

    Rhydon: too manly for me ;-;

    In all seriousness though, Rhydon can be a real pain if i dont play well, checking Entei with ease, absoring Volt Switches from Rotom-C if the opponent predicts correctly, and even being able to take a Close Combat from Toxic Boosted Zangoose. Its lack of any form of recovery and 4x weaknesses to Waterfall and Leaf Storm make it easier to handle, but it can still end up being quite the annoyance if my opponent plays well and/or i cant get enough hazards up to wear it down. ​


    Importable (open)

    Druddigon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Outrage
    - Sucker Punch
    - Earthquake

    Cryogonal @ Icicle Plate
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 60 HP / 252 SAtk / 196 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Ice Beam
    - Rapid Spin
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]
    - Recover

    Zangoose @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Toxic Boost
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Facade
    - Close Combat
    - Night Slash
    - Quick Attack

    Qwilfish @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Spikes
    - Waterfall
    - Taunt
    - Thunder Wave

    Entei @ Choice Band
    Trait: Pressure
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Flare Blitz
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Stone Edge
    - Sleep Talk

    Rotom-Mow @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 12 HP / 252 SAtk / 244 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Volt Switch
    - Leaf Storm
    - Thunderbolt
    - Trick
    Level 51 likes this.
  2. bobbyvaporeon

    bobbyvaporeon

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2012
    Messages:
    681
    Hey Molk! Nice team, but there's some issues.
    Manly rock-types such as Aggron and Rhydon hurt this team. The best check is RestTalk Poliwrath, who takes little from anything the beasts can throw at it. It's hard to find a place for it, but Qwilfish seems like the way to go.
  3. Friar

    Friar

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2008
    Messages:
    615
    Hi Molk, really excellent team you have going here.

    My suggestion is mostly geared towards patching up the weaknesses that you've pointed out. It seems like Druddigon / Qwilfish / Cyrogonal / Entei / Rotom-C handles most everything for your team, and Zangoose is mostly tacked on as a secondary wallbreaker. The thing is, with hazards, CB Entei can smash through just about anything, and can easily sweep lategame with priority (like Zangoose). Also, your team owns Grass-types, so Rotom-C should have no problem sweeping late game either. So, is Zangoose really necessary given you have an unstoppable wallbreaker that doubles as a lategame sweeper as well as a secondary lategame sweeper? If you can bear getting rid of the namesake of the team, I would suggest replacing it with SpD Gallade:

    Gallade @ Leftovers
    Steadfast / Careful
    248 HP / 244 SpD / 16 Spe
    -Wish
    -Protect
    -Drain Punch
    -Will o Wisp / Stone Edge

    Gallade can serve as a great special wall for your team, and can take on the majority of the special attackers that Cyrogonal cannot (and makes up for it using a more offensive set), and patches up the three weaknesses you've identified. Aggron, Omastar, and Rhydon are all checked by Gallade through its typing, high special defense, Drain Punch, recovery, and Will o Wisp. Wish brings so much to your team in my opinion. Druddigon, Entei, Qwilfish, and Rotom-C all have great typing to serve as pivots, but can easily be worn down. Wish solves that problem and keeps your team in mint condition to continue checking threats and abusing hazards. I slashed Stone Edge because although you didn't mention it as a threat, Moltres seems like a huge asshole, and with Stone Edge you can lure Moltres in and get it out of the way early in the match.

    With Gallade on the team, you really don't need both of Taunt and Thunder Wave on Qwilfish because Gallade can take on those common switch ins you were previously targeting with TWave. Pain Split takes your longevity through the roof, and can help Qwilfish continue to wall threats and lay hazards even if Gallade can't Wish it back to full health. Taunt I think is more important to stop Crawdaunt from boosting while also keeping hazards from say, Ferroseed from going up.

    With these changes, I think your team will be extremely sturdy defensively, but still able to overpower opposing teams through hazards + CB Entei Flare Blitz, with its ExtremeSpeed and Rotom-C able to mop up whatever is left. Best of luck with the team!

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