Salamence (Placeholder)

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#1


Salamence
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[Overview]

[SET]
name: Mixmence
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
move 3: Brick Break
move 4: Roost
item: Life Orb
ability: Intimidate
nature: Rash
evs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe

Set Comments:

Additional Comments:

  • Alternate EV Spread: 16 Atk / 240 SpA / 252 Spe - The Atk EVs given ensure that the standard Blissey will always be 2HKOed by a combination of Draco Meteor and Outrage, as well as getting KOes on other Pokemon; the rest of the EVs are self explanatory: 240 SpA EVs strengthens Draco Meteor, while 252 Spe Evs outruns un-scarfed Sazandora and ties with un-boosted Urugamosu
Teammates and Counters:

[SET]
name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Roost / Fire Blast
item: Life Orb
nature: Jolly / Naive
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

Set Comments:

Additional Comments:

Teammates and Counters:

[SET]
name: Mixed Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Draco Meteor
move 4: Fire Blast / Earthquake
item: Life Orb
nature: Naive
evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Set Comments:

Additional Comments:

Teammates and Counters:

[SET]
name: FatMence
move 1: Dragon Tail / Toxic
move 2: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
move 3: Roost
move 4: Wish / Roar
item: Leftovers
ability: Intimidate
nature: Bold / Impish
evs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe

Set Comments:

Additional Comments:

Teammates and Counters:

[SET]
name: Bulky Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Dragon Claw
move 3: Fire Blast / Earthquake / Brick Break
move 4: Roost
item: Leftovers / Life Orb
ability: Intimidate
nature: Adamant
EVs: 248 HP / 56 Atk / 148 Def / 56 Spe

Set Comments:

Additional Comments:

Teammates and Counters:

[Team Options]

[Optional Changes]

[Counters]

[Dream World]
 

Athenodoros

Official Smogon Know-It-All
#6
Yes, a Fatmence with Wish, Dragon Tail, maybe Roost, and a bulky EV spread is reasonably good. It works well on stall teams.
 
#7
Fire Blast should be before Roost on the Dragon Dance set.

A bulky set would be nice. However, I haven't seen any, so I can't say if it's any good on opinion.

People need to stop bashing Overconfidence for the lack of Outrage on any sets that use it. Intimidate may be nice, but when it comes to mid/late game sweeping, I like being able to switch from my STAB attack. I use Dragon Dance Salamence with the ability, and if played smartly, it works great.

Opinions on the Choice items?
 
#8
Yeah Wish Roost D-Tail mence is awesome. Serving as a great check to many things like Lucario, Payback Roobushin etc.

Also CB Mence (not outclassed, higher attack than chomp, better coverage than Ononokusu), Specs Mence (not outclassed by Latios, gets Fire Blast and a higher power water move), Bulky Mence (not outclassed by Nite, Intimidate and ability not negated by SR) and said Wish Mence need to be mentioned/added and all are still viable.

Also split classic and new mixmences up imo. They do totally different things. One sticks around with Roost to break stall whilst the other relies on sheer power and doesn't stick around much at all.

Fire Blast should be before Roost on the Dragon Dance set.
Gonna agree with this too. It should be primary option, as it really cant afford to be stopped by Natt (or Skarm really lol) this meta or other annoying steels really like Dory whom you can Fire Blast on the switch to bypass its Balloon. Otherwise you risk locking yourself in with Outrage or EQing nothing.
 
#9
Specs Mence does not deserve its own set. It does not hit much harder than Mixmence and while the lack of recoil is nice you are forced out quite easily + still raped by residual damage.
 
#10
Is there a viable DD set with an Adamant nature that still reaches a certain necessary speed to outpace Haxorus and Hydreigon? I feel like there has to be slightly bulkier option than the Jolly 252/252/4 DD set. Is +speed nature really necessary?
 
#11
Is there a viable DD set with an Adamant nature that still reaches a certain necessary speed to outpace Haxorus and Hydreigon? I feel like there has to be slightly bulkier option than the Jolly 252/252/4 DD set. Is +speed nature really necessary?
The two can be slashed. The 100 speed tier is less important these days and ScarfJirachi / ScarfGon are rarer and rare.

You would lost to +Speed Scarf Hydreigon, Haxorus, and Darmanitan, but otherwise Adamant is perfectly viable.
 

SJCrew

Believer, going on a journey...
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#12
Salamence's #1 set right now appears to be MixMence. I haven't seen a serious DDMence in forever. Effectiveness is a big part of it too, since faster Scarfers and priority abusers make DDMence much less viable than it used to be. You should probably change the order of the sets to reflect this trend.
 
#13
Salamence's #1 set right now appears to be MixMence. I haven't seen a serious DDMence in forever. Effectiveness is a big part of it too, since faster Scarfers and priority abusers make DDMence much less viable than it used to be. You should probably change the order of the sets to reflect this trend.
But the meta is supposedly less SR oriented and a majority of priority moves are resisted by Mence, correct?


also, any ideas for an Adamant DD Mence ev spread, anyone?
 
#14
Here are set choices to think about, in this order (Based on effectiveness and most likely usage as well).

[SET]
name: Mixmence
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
move 3: Brick Break
move 4: Roost
item: Life Orb
ability: Intimidate
nature: Rash
evs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe

Best set hands down. No explanation needed on why. Good fighting pokemon check and abuses Intimidate and Roost.


[SET]
name: FatMence
move 1: Dragon Tail / Toxic
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Roost
move 4: Wish / Roar / Substitute (AC), Draco Meteor, AC
item: Leftovers
ability: Intimidate
nature: Bold
evs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe

More useful in the metagame right now.

[SET]
name: Overconfident Mence
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Dragon Claw
move 4: Earthquake / Brick Break
item: Life Orb
ability: Overconfidence
nature: Naive
evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

only set that should use this ability IMO. "New" mixmence (actually sucks this metagame compared to his other sets).

[SET]
name: Bulky Dragon Dancer
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Dragon Claw
move 3: Fire Blast / Earthquake / Brick Break
move 4: Roost
item: Leftovers / Life Orb
ability: Intimidate
nature: Adamant
EVs: 248 HP / 56 Atk / 148 Def / 56 Spe

Bulky and powerful. 250 Speed for Scarfchomp. 56 Attack EVs gives you 352 which is a solid attack score especially if you use Life Orb (compares will with pure Dragon Dancer that is jolly, which is further reason why that set sucks). Earthquake at +1 with that will OHKO Metagross and Jirachi after Stealth Rock just for reference.

Fire Blast is hands down THE best secondary option. It is more powerful than Fire Fang against most targets even at +1, and doesn't require you to Dragon Dance to get that power. Scizor / Skarmory / Bronzong / Forretress / Natt are 5 very good reasons to use Fire Blast over Earthquake.

[SET]
name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Fire Blast / Roost
item: Life Orb
nature: Jolly / Adamant
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

This set isn't very good compared to what Salamence can do. I don't understand the emphasis on speed, but I think Jolly and Adamant should be slashed, with SpA preserving natures listed in OC.


Salamence probably shouldn't bother with Choice Sets. Dragonite and Garchomp do Band better, Latios and Latias do Specs better, and Garchomp and Flygon do Scarf better, go figure.
 

supermarth64

Here I stand in the light of day
is a Contributor Alumnus
#17
IMO Fatmence should be Impish and have Flamethrower instead of Bold and Fire Blast. Flamethrower 2HKOes max/max+ Ferrothorn anyway and Fire Blast doesn't OHKO 4/0 Excadrill. Additionally, you don't have to deal any misses, and I'd rather deal more damage to Dragon-types like Lati@s that feel like they can freely switch in on a Flamethrower with Dragon Tail than not achieve any notable KOes.

I personally use Wish/Protect instead of Roost/Wish on Mence because Protect lets me scout for Choiced Draco Meteors/Dragon Pulses, get more sandstorm damage, and just for stalling out Toxic more efficiently (whether it be on other Pokemon or TSpikes). IMO it should get an AC mention at the minimum. I guess it's similar to Wish/Softboiled/Protect on Blissey in that case.
 
#18
I mean yeah Impish makes Dragon Tail do more damage but Fire Blast is there mainly for 2HKOing Skarm and OHKOing Scizor and Forretress. Dragon Tail doesnt come close AT ALL to KOing any of the other Dragons, and is used on the switch anyway. Its more about phazing then power output
 

shrang

Kylowole is shredded
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
#19
I remember back in 4th gen there was this nifty set (well it's in the Ubers analysis too):

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Naive
-Draco Meteor
-Outrage
-Fire Blast / Earthquake
-Dragon Dance

Acts like a lure of sorts. Dragon Dance gets opposing physical walls to switch in, who then get promptly drilled by Draco Meteor. Later, DD+Outrage is usually enough to clean up.
 

supermarth64

Here I stand in the light of day
is a Contributor Alumnus
#20
I mean yeah Impish makes Dragon Tail do more damage but Fire Blast is there mainly for 2HKOing Skarm and OHKOing Scizor and Forretress. Dragon Tail doesnt come close AT ALL to KOing any of the other Dragons, and is used on the switch anyway. Its more about phazing then power output
Flamethrower 2HKOes physically defensive Skarmory while Fire Blast doesn't get the OHKO. The only difference it makes is against Specially Defensive Skarmory which isn't as great this generation but still only takes 50-60% from Fire Blast meaning it can potentially Roost stall Fire Blast PP (blah blah blah argument about KOing weakened Skarmory).

248/0 Scizor takes 93% min from an Impish Flamethrower. Even 232/180 Scizor dies after SR/Spikes damage (78% min) and if it uses Bullet Punch with Life Orb then it dies to LO recoil with just SR up. And SR/Spikes isn't that hard to keep up with not that many Rapid Spinners existing, most of whom have a way of getting by Ghosts anyway (SD EQ or Hydro Pump, etc).

I'll concede for Forretress since Forry vs Ferrothorn means Ferrothorn loses due to no Rapid Spin but only for SpD versions vs Salamence.

... I have no idea what I'm arguing for here. I guess I just don't like the miss chance from Fire Blast. I'd be fine with Flamethrower + Bold but at that rate you might as well use Impish so meh.
 

SJCrew

Believer, going on a journey...
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#21
But the meta is supposedly less SR oriented and a majority of priority moves are resisted by Mence, correct?
Huh? Who told you that? Stealth Rock being "less common" is an urban myth because of lower-level players not using it and team viewer doing away with the traditional lead game. You're still going to see SR on any and every serious team. Scizor is still around and so is Dragonite. Lucario, not as much, but he's still there. But it's priority combined with the influx of faster and viable scarfers that hurt DDMence. This metagame has shifted toward bulky offense for sure.

I also disagree with the order of the sets. We're going to need a greater consensus than just RaikouLover's opinion to determine how effective the traditional DDMence is this gen. It might be a little too early to tell where it should go ATM, but last place is ridiculous.

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Naive
-Draco Meteor
-Outrage
-Fire Blast / Earthquake
-Dragon Dance
This set is definitely legit. In case some of you aren't aware, this is actually his 4th Gen Ubers set right down to the letter, known as "Rayquaza's Wallbreaking Partner." This might even be good enough go over the traditional DDMence set as the second set onsite. I think we should all start testing this.
 
#22
Ugh, that whole notion about Stealth Rock not being as useful or common this generation needs to be crushed. SJCrew is right, it is a myth. The rocks are still a huge nuisance for any Flying Pokemon, including Salamence, and must be considered/acknowledged in every battle you'll ever be in.

I honestly have to disagree that his Mixed set is his best. I haven't had as much success with it as the tried and true Dragon Dance strategy. I'm definitely not saying that his Mixes are something that can be overlooked though. Even Dragon Dance sets function better with Fire Blast.

The game is changing of course as time passes by, so whichever performs better might change as well.
 

SJCrew

Believer, going on a journey...
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#23
This is why I personally support the MixDancer set going onsite and getting at least third place, if not second. Switch-ins are still not safe and he only has to go for a sweep lategame when it is. This is the kind of thing Salamence does that no other Dragon can do.
 
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