Salamence (Placeholder)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Aerrow, Jan 22, 2011.

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  1. Aerrow

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    [​IMG]
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    Salamence
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    [Overview]

    [SET]
    name: Mixmence
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
    move 3: Brick Break
    move 4: Roost
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Intimidate
    nature: Rash
    evs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe

    Set Comments:

    Additional Comments:

    • Alternate EV Spread: 16 Atk / 240 SpA / 252 Spe - The Atk EVs given ensure that the standard Blissey will always be 2HKOed by a combination of Draco Meteor and Outrage, as well as getting KOes on other Pokemon; the rest of the EVs are self explanatory: 240 SpA EVs strengthens Draco Meteor, while 252 Spe Evs outruns un-scarfed Sazandora and ties with un-boosted Urugamosu
    Teammates and Counters:

    [SET]
    name: Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Roost / Fire Blast
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Jolly / Naive
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    Set Comments:

    Additional Comments:

    Teammates and Counters:

    [SET]
    name: Mixed Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Outrage
    move 3: Draco Meteor
    move 4: Fire Blast / Earthquake
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Naive
    evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    Set Comments:

    Additional Comments:

    Teammates and Counters:

    [SET]
    name: FatMence
    move 1: Dragon Tail / Toxic
    move 2: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
    move 3: Roost
    move 4: Wish / Roar
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Intimidate
    nature: Bold / Impish
    evs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe

    Set Comments:

    Additional Comments:

    Teammates and Counters:

    [SET]
    name: Bulky Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Dragon Claw
    move 3: Fire Blast / Earthquake / Brick Break
    move 4: Roost
    item: Leftovers / Life Orb
    ability: Intimidate
    nature: Adamant
    EVs: 248 HP / 56 Atk / 148 Def / 56 Spe

    Set Comments:

    Additional Comments:

    Teammates and Counters:

    [Team Options]

    [Optional Changes]

    [Counters]

    [Dream World]
  2. SlowBroseph

    SlowBroseph

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    What are the abilities for the sets?
  3. vraikou

    vraikou

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    As far as I know Intimidate is the only way Salamence can run Outrage so presumably that's what it is for both.
  4. Bugbot

    Bugbot

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    Fire Blast should ALWAYS be the primary option for the Dragon Dance set.
  5. AK707

    AK707

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    Dragon Tail Sets?
  6. Athenodoros

    Athenodoros Official Smogon Know-It-All

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    Yes, a Fatmence with Wish, Dragon Tail, maybe Roost, and a bulky EV spread is reasonably good. It works well on stall teams.
  7. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    Fire Blast should be before Roost on the Dragon Dance set.

    A bulky set would be nice. However, I haven't seen any, so I can't say if it's any good on opinion.

    People need to stop bashing Overconfidence for the lack of Outrage on any sets that use it. Intimidate may be nice, but when it comes to mid/late game sweeping, I like being able to switch from my STAB attack. I use Dragon Dance Salamence with the ability, and if played smartly, it works great.

    Opinions on the Choice items?
  8. Sir Azelf

    Sir Azelf

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    Yeah Wish Roost D-Tail mence is awesome. Serving as a great check to many things like Lucario, Payback Roobushin etc.

    Also CB Mence (not outclassed, higher attack than chomp, better coverage than Ononokusu), Specs Mence (not outclassed by Latios, gets Fire Blast and a higher power water move), Bulky Mence (not outclassed by Nite, Intimidate and ability not negated by SR) and said Wish Mence need to be mentioned/added and all are still viable.

    Also split classic and new mixmences up imo. They do totally different things. One sticks around with Roost to break stall whilst the other relies on sheer power and doesn't stick around much at all.

    Gonna agree with this too. It should be primary option, as it really cant afford to be stopped by Natt (or Skarm really lol) this meta or other annoying steels really like Dory whom you can Fire Blast on the switch to bypass its Balloon. Otherwise you risk locking yourself in with Outrage or EQing nothing.
  9. HART4FLOON

    HART4FLOON

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    Specs Mence does not deserve its own set. It does not hit much harder than Mixmence and while the lack of recoil is nice you are forced out quite easily + still raped by residual damage.
  10. sundy

    sundy

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    Is there a viable DD set with an Adamant nature that still reaches a certain necessary speed to outpace Haxorus and Hydreigon? I feel like there has to be slightly bulkier option than the Jolly 252/252/4 DD set. Is +speed nature really necessary?
  11. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

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    The two can be slashed. The 100 speed tier is less important these days and ScarfJirachi / ScarfGon are rarer and rare.

    You would lost to +Speed Scarf Hydreigon, Haxorus, and Darmanitan, but otherwise Adamant is perfectly viable.
  12. SJCrew

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    Salamence's #1 set right now appears to be MixMence. I haven't seen a serious DDMence in forever. Effectiveness is a big part of it too, since faster Scarfers and priority abusers make DDMence much less viable than it used to be. You should probably change the order of the sets to reflect this trend.
  13. sundy

    sundy

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    But the meta is supposedly less SR oriented and a majority of priority moves are resisted by Mence, correct?


    also, any ideas for an Adamant DD Mence ev spread, anyone?
  14. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    Here are set choices to think about, in this order (Based on effectiveness and most likely usage as well).

    [SET]
    name: Mixmence
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
    move 3: Brick Break
    move 4: Roost
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Intimidate
    nature: Rash
    evs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe

    Best set hands down. No explanation needed on why. Good fighting pokemon check and abuses Intimidate and Roost.


    [SET]
    name: FatMence
    move 1: Dragon Tail / Toxic
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Roost
    move 4: Wish / Roar / Substitute (AC), Draco Meteor, AC
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Intimidate
    nature: Bold
    evs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe

    More useful in the metagame right now.

    [SET]
    name: Overconfident Mence
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Dragon Claw
    move 4: Earthquake / Brick Break
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Overconfidence
    nature: Naive
    evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    only set that should use this ability IMO. "New" mixmence (actually sucks this metagame compared to his other sets).

    [SET]
    name: Bulky Dragon Dancer
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Dragon Claw
    move 3: Fire Blast / Earthquake / Brick Break
    move 4: Roost
    item: Leftovers / Life Orb
    ability: Intimidate
    nature: Adamant
    EVs: 248 HP / 56 Atk / 148 Def / 56 Spe

    Bulky and powerful. 250 Speed for Scarfchomp. 56 Attack EVs gives you 352 which is a solid attack score especially if you use Life Orb (compares will with pure Dragon Dancer that is jolly, which is further reason why that set sucks). Earthquake at +1 with that will OHKO Metagross and Jirachi after Stealth Rock just for reference.

    Fire Blast is hands down THE best secondary option. It is more powerful than Fire Fang against most targets even at +1, and doesn't require you to Dragon Dance to get that power. Scizor / Skarmory / Bronzong / Forretress / Natt are 5 very good reasons to use Fire Blast over Earthquake.

    [SET]
    name: Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Fire Blast / Roost
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Jolly / Adamant
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

    This set isn't very good compared to what Salamence can do. I don't understand the emphasis on speed, but I think Jolly and Adamant should be slashed, with SpA preserving natures listed in OC.


    Salamence probably shouldn't bother with Choice Sets. Dragonite and Garchomp do Band better, Latios and Latias do Specs better, and Garchomp and Flygon do Scarf better, go figure.
  15. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming The truth is in my hands
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    I agree with your ordering RL, but Overconfidence Mence has not been released so you need to remove that set.
  16. Aerrow

    Aerrow hunter
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    Alright; gave this analysis an overhaul.
  17. supermarth64

    supermarth64 Here I stand in the light of day
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    IMO Fatmence should be Impish and have Flamethrower instead of Bold and Fire Blast. Flamethrower 2HKOes max/max+ Ferrothorn anyway and Fire Blast doesn't OHKO 4/0 Excadrill. Additionally, you don't have to deal any misses, and I'd rather deal more damage to Dragon-types like Lati@s that feel like they can freely switch in on a Flamethrower with Dragon Tail than not achieve any notable KOes.

    I personally use Wish/Protect instead of Roost/Wish on Mence because Protect lets me scout for Choiced Draco Meteors/Dragon Pulses, get more sandstorm damage, and just for stalling out Toxic more efficiently (whether it be on other Pokemon or TSpikes). IMO it should get an AC mention at the minimum. I guess it's similar to Wish/Softboiled/Protect on Blissey in that case.
  18. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    I mean yeah Impish makes Dragon Tail do more damage but Fire Blast is there mainly for 2HKOing Skarm and OHKOing Scizor and Forretress. Dragon Tail doesnt come close AT ALL to KOing any of the other Dragons, and is used on the switch anyway. Its more about phazing then power output
  19. shrang

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    I remember back in 4th gen there was this nifty set (well it's in the Ubers analysis too):

    Salamence @ Life Orb
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Nature: Naive
    -Draco Meteor
    -Outrage
    -Fire Blast / Earthquake
    -Dragon Dance

    Acts like a lure of sorts. Dragon Dance gets opposing physical walls to switch in, who then get promptly drilled by Draco Meteor. Later, DD+Outrage is usually enough to clean up.
  20. supermarth64

    supermarth64 Here I stand in the light of day
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    Flamethrower 2HKOes physically defensive Skarmory while Fire Blast doesn't get the OHKO. The only difference it makes is against Specially Defensive Skarmory which isn't as great this generation but still only takes 50-60% from Fire Blast meaning it can potentially Roost stall Fire Blast PP (blah blah blah argument about KOing weakened Skarmory).

    248/0 Scizor takes 93% min from an Impish Flamethrower. Even 232/180 Scizor dies after SR/Spikes damage (78% min) and if it uses Bullet Punch with Life Orb then it dies to LO recoil with just SR up. And SR/Spikes isn't that hard to keep up with not that many Rapid Spinners existing, most of whom have a way of getting by Ghosts anyway (SD EQ or Hydro Pump, etc).

    I'll concede for Forretress since Forry vs Ferrothorn means Ferrothorn loses due to no Rapid Spin but only for SpD versions vs Salamence.

    ... I have no idea what I'm arguing for here. I guess I just don't like the miss chance from Fire Blast. I'd be fine with Flamethrower + Bold but at that rate you might as well use Impish so meh.
  21. SJCrew

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    Huh? Who told you that? Stealth Rock being "less common" is an urban myth because of lower-level players not using it and team viewer doing away with the traditional lead game. You're still going to see SR on any and every serious team. Scizor is still around and so is Dragonite. Lucario, not as much, but he's still there. But it's priority combined with the influx of faster and viable scarfers that hurt DDMence. This metagame has shifted toward bulky offense for sure.

    I also disagree with the order of the sets. We're going to need a greater consensus than just RaikouLover's opinion to determine how effective the traditional DDMence is this gen. It might be a little too early to tell where it should go ATM, but last place is ridiculous.

    This set is definitely legit. In case some of you aren't aware, this is actually his 4th Gen Ubers set right down to the letter, known as "Rayquaza's Wallbreaking Partner." This might even be good enough go over the traditional DDMence set as the second set onsite. I think we should all start testing this.
  22. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    Ugh, that whole notion about Stealth Rock not being as useful or common this generation needs to be crushed. SJCrew is right, it is a myth. The rocks are still a huge nuisance for any Flying Pokemon, including Salamence, and must be considered/acknowledged in every battle you'll ever be in.

    I honestly have to disagree that his Mixed set is his best. I haven't had as much success with it as the tried and true Dragon Dance strategy. I'm definitely not saying that his Mixes are something that can be overlooked though. Even Dragon Dance sets function better with Fire Blast.

    The game is changing of course as time passes by, so whichever performs better might change as well.
  23. SJCrew

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    This is why I personally support the MixDancer set going onsite and getting at least third place, if not second. Switch-ins are still not safe and he only has to go for a sweep lategame when it is. This is the kind of thing Salamence does that no other Dragon can do.
  24. GameMaster0000

    GameMaster0000

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    Brick break on MixMence is not good option. I will use Outrage or even Dclaw is better. After you Dmeteor you will sit with weak Dmeteor ,FBlast and weak BB.
  25. sundy

    sundy

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    What about a:

    Adamant
    120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
    DD
    Outrage
    EQ
    Fire Blast/Roost

    set?
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