Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?

[Eifie]

Honestly, I find Salamence harder to deal with than Garchomp. Why? Versatility. All Garchomp sets that were any good used Garchomp's physical prowess to sweep teams, either with Swords Dance or a Choice item. Because of this, I was able to counter 95% of Garchomps with my Lapras (which would fall under the "bulky water" category).

Salamence on the other hand uses several sets, all countered by different things and each with massive destructive power. Should I bring Lapras out into Salamence as I so readily would against Garchomp, I get mixed results. Sometimes, Sala uses Dragon Dance. When this happens, Lapras counters Mence because a DD Outrage won't OHKO, but a STAB 4x Ice Beam will. Sometimes, Mence uses a physical attack immediately, like Outrage, Earthquake or Fire Fang. When this happens, I still win because Lapras can survive the Outrage it came into plus one more and still OHKO back with Ice Beam.

Sometimes I just get killed though. When Mence is a Meteor variety that uses Meteor as its primary or secondary attack, I get either outright killed as soon as I come in (Specs varieties), crippled when I come in (Meteor-dependent mixed varieties), or killed on the second hit before I get my first hit off (physical-dependent Meteor varieties). Any Salamence counter is like this. Any that counters a physical variety dies to a special one, or vice versa.

Any of those said sets are capable of doing incredible damage without very much trouble. Each in its own right is difficult to counter, but none alone is uber. It is the existence of several very different sets with different counters that are all near-uber that makes Salamence uber.

 

[Sir Azelf]

I was able to counter 95% of Garchomps with my Lapras (which would fall under the "bulky water" category).

No it doesnt fit the bulky water category, it fits the "awful switch into mence AND chomp" category. Do damage calcs and you will see why.

Im sorry, but a random SR weak UU getting decimated on the switch in does not make Mence uber, period.


Edit : Actually its NU haha.

 

[King Syn]

Honestly, I find Salamence harder to deal with than Garchomp. Why? Versatility. All Garchomp sets that were any good used Garchomp's physical prowess to sweep teams, either with Swords Dance or a Choice item. Because of this, I was able to counter 95% of Garchomps with my Lapras (which would fall under the "bulky water" category).

Irrelevant. Mence does the exact same thing, using either a Choice band or Dragon dance to swep. The major difference is that Mence can run a decent special set.

Salamence on the other hand uses several sets, all countered by different things and each with massive destructive power. Should I bring Lapras out into Salamence as I so readily would against Garchomp, I get mixed results. Sometimes, Sala uses Dragon Dance. When this happens, Lapras counters Mence because a DD Outrage won't OHKO, but a STAB 4x Ice Beam will. Sometimes, Mence uses a physical attack immediately, like Outrage, Earthquake or Fire Fang. When this happens, I still win because Lapras can survive the Outrage it came into plus one more and still OHKO back with Ice Beam.

Mamoswine. CB. Ice Shard. Easy revenge kill. Yache can help I guess, but whats stopping something like Scizor from coming in when its down and Bullet punching the hell out of it?

Sometimes I just get killed though. When Mence is a Meteor variety that uses Meteor as its primary or secondary attack, I get either outright killed as soon as I come in (Specs varieties), crippled when I come in (Meteor-dependent mixed varieties), or killed on the second hit before I get my first hit off (physical-dependent Meteor varieties). Any Salamence counter is like this. Any that counters a physical variety dies to a special one, or vice versa.

Well stop being dumb and switching things in on an insanely powerful attack?

Any of those said sets are capable of doing incredible damage without very much trouble. Each in its own right is difficult to counter, but none alone is uber. It is the existence of several very different sets with different counters that are all near-uber that makes Salamence uber.

So is just about anything else that sets up, lets test them too.

Yeah...

 

[cantab]

No Survivors[/URL]]Irrelevant. Mence does the exact same thing, using either a Choice band or Dragon dance to swep. The major difference is that Mence can run a decent special set.

VERY RELEVANT INDEED actually. Garchomp's a beast physically, but sucks on the special side. Meaning anything that can take its physical hits is a safe switch-in. Of course not much CAN take a +2 physical hit.

Against Salamence, on the other hand, potential switch-ins have to worry about both sides of their defenses. And steels, which resist the dragon moves, have to worry about both Fire Blast and Earthquake from Mence.

Well stop being dumb and switching things in on an insanely powerful attack?

Unless you have ESP, you can't know what attack Salamence is going to use when you decide to switch.

So is just about anything else that sets up, lets test them too.

Not many things really have offenses on both sides comparable to Salamence, coupled with good speed. Dragonite comes pretty close, but it's notably slower. Azelf is also close in power, and faster than Mence. That's about it, ignoring current Ubers.

No it doesnt fit the bulky water category, it fits the "awful switch into mence AND chomp" category. Do damage calcs and you will see why.

Experience counts for more than damage calcs. If he found Lapras a good Garchomp counter, he's probably right. Of course, that a good Garchomp counter is not a good Salamence counter does not make Salamence Uber.

 

[FerrariCUBU]

Honestly, the whole suspect thing is going crazy. In the last month I've seen so many proposals for new suspects that it's not even funny. Some people need to get the difference between the words powerful and broken. Salamence is powerful, not broken. It does not meet the Uber criteria.

 

[Deucalion2]

Arguably, it could. There's no exact definition of the word "significant portion".

 

[xBLUEx]

Salamence is no way near uber at all. Yes it does have a great movepool and hits like a beast but, there are many counters for it. Unlike Garchomp, Salamence can be hit with Thunderwave therefore crippling its awesome speed. Virtually all teams have some type of Ice move on at least one of their Pokemon, and with SR, it's sure to be a OHKO.

 

[cantab]

Very little REALLY counters it though.

To fully counter Salamence, a Pokemon needs to be able to take any of Mence's moves - and any of his physical ones at +1, unless it has priority or outspeeds even after Mence dances. If it's slower than Salamence, it needs to be able to take TWO hits from any combination of Mence's moves.

I'm honestly not sure there are any Pokemon that can do that. Draco Meteor and Outrage combine to force potential counters to be very bulky on both sides, while EQ and Fire Blast spoil things for steels.

Now, being uncounterable doesn't automatically make something Uber. Salamence is easily revenge killed once it has used Outrage. Even if it's not outrage-locked, if forced out it won't like switching in again if rocks are around.

 

[xBLUEx]

Very little REALLY counters it though.

To fully counter Salamence, a Pokemon needs to be able to take any of Mence's moves. If it's slower than Salamence, it needs to be able to take TWO hits from any combination of Mence's moves.

I'm honestly not sure there are any Pokemon that can do that.

Now, being uncounterable doesn't automatically make something Uber. Salamence is easily revenge killed once it has used Outrage. Even if it's not outrage-locked, if forced out it won't like switching in again if rocks are around.

Well most can wear it down through use of revenge killing and/or sacrificing Pokemon. My mistake for saying countering it.

 

[Acritter]

Well most can wear it down through use of revenge killing and/or sacrificing Pokemon. My mistake for saying countering it.

The problem is, reliably having to revenge kill and sacrifice Pokemon is a reasonably clear indicator that the revenge-killed is very, very powerful if not uber.

 

[Senzairu]

I don't think it's just Salamence's stats that are being argued here for the Uber tier. It's his versatility along with those stats. The biggest problem anyone faces when trying to counter is prediction. If you switch Gliscor in thinking it's a CB set and it turns out to be Specs, you're screwed. The same could be said if you expect a move like Fire Blast and switch your Blissey in, only to get slammed hard by Brick Break.

The only REAL counter I can think of to consistently counter Salamence is Cresselia. However, there are certain counters to certain sets. Blissey can wall the Specs set, whereas many physical walls can counter the CB set. All the while, Suicune and Vaporeon make great counters to the mixed set.

It's just about finding out what set Salamence is running. This same problem can be seen in Tyranitar, Jirachi, and to a lesser extent, Celebi. All have a 600 BTS (T-tar could technically be considered to have more when you think about the 1.5 boost to his special defense in sandstorm.)

My point is, Salamence can be countered just like these other Pokemon, you just have to have the prediction skills to do so.

 

[Flashstorm1]

One thing I wanted to make note of is that many people are assuming that teams using Salamence won't actually have the rest of the team support it. You guys are assuming that Salamence is an independent Pokemon in most of these scenarios. Sure, Salamence is SR weak, but most teams will have a way to either prevent Stealth Rock from getting set up or simply to remove it from the field, particularly is the main focus of the team is Salamence itself. Fine, Salamence can get itself locked into Outrage, but most players are aware of such possibility and will carry Magnezone to KO Steels which can revenge kill Salamence. And I don't see why this cant be regarded as a common battle condition either. If Salamence requires such definite extremes to be dealt with (lest it sweep your team), how hard would it be to use Magnezone or Starmie on your team to eliminate its two biggest weaknesses? Everyone here can agree that Salamence would be much more fearsome as a threat without the presence of Stealth Rock or Steel-types to beat it.

 

[cantab]

My point is, Salamence can be countered just like these other Pokemon, you just have to have the prediction skills to do so.

But how can you have 'prediction skills' when it's Salamence's first move. You might be able to take a guess based on what the opponent's previous play style is - for example, you wouldn't expect a choiced set on a HO team; you might guess mix or specsmence if you've already seen two physical sweepers. But that's about it. And even there there's the possibility the opponent's team is ersatz or unbalanced, or that Mence comes out early.
You can only 'predict' based on things you already know. When your opponent first shows Mence you know very little, so it's just guesswork really.

Indeed, if you're relying on knowledge of the rest of the team to infer Salamence's moveset, you're assuming the team is well-designed and balanced. If it is using the objectively 'wrong' Salamence, and you thus guess wrong, you're worse off.

EDIT: @Flashstorm1. If a Pokemon requires support to be a threat, it's probably NOT Uber. If it needs a Rapid Spinner or fast Taunt lead to avoid rocks - well those Pokemon can be countered. If it needs Magnezone to get rid of steels - well Magnezone can be dealt with.
If the supporter's job is very easy, then THEY are arguably the suspects.
Of course, the fact of the matter is Salamence does NOT require support to be a threat. It's perfectly capable of dealing with steels by itself, as long as the user isn't stupid enough to Outrage first thing. Stealth Rock makes it hard to switch it in more than once, but often it doesn't NEED to switch in more than once - the only thing that scares it out is faster ice moves, and none of their users can really switch in.

 

[Senzairu]

But how can you have 'prediction skills' when it's Salamence's first move. You might be able to take a guess based on what the opponent's previous play style is - for example, you wouldn't expect a choiced set on a HO team; you might guess mix or specsmence if you've already seen two physical sweepers. But that's about it. And even there there's the possibility the opponent's team is ersatz or unbalanced, or that Mence comes out early.
You can only 'predict' based on things you already know. When your opponent first shows Mence you know very little, so it's just guesswork really.

Indeed, if you're relying on knowledge of the rest of the team to infer Salamence's moveset, you're assuming the team is well-designed and balanced. If it is using the objectively 'wrong' Salamence, and you thus guess wrong, you're worse off.

The problem with this kind of logic is that it can be used for any Pokemon with a large movepool and several different movesets. For example, most people will switch Heatran into Jirachi without a second thought. However, if it turns out that Jirachi carries the rare HP Ground or Thunder Wave, then you're "worse off" than you were before. That's just a part of the game.

Jirachi is a lot like Salamence in the sense that it has great typing, a fantastic ability as well as a versatile moveset, a 600 BST, and better than Salamence is that it resists Stealth Rock. And with SR being omnipresent in today's metagame, whenever Salamence switches in, he's fighting at 3/4 of it's total health.

With all these Pokemon that have great movesets and amazing abilities to help it in battle, I guess I don't understand why Salamence is being singled out when other Pokemon have the same BST and versatility.

 

[Senzairu]

One thing I wanted to make note of is that many people are assuming that teams using Salamence won't actually have the rest of the team support it. You guys are assuming that Salamence is an independent Pokemon in most of these scenarios. Sure, Salamence is SR weak, but most teams will have a way to either prevent Stealth Rock from getting set up or simply to remove it from the field, particularly is the main focus of the team is Salamence itself. Fine, Salamence can get itself locked into Outrage, but most players are aware of such possibility and will carry Magnezone to KO Steels which can revenge kill Salamence. And I don't see why this cant be regarded as a common battle condition either. If Salamence requires such definite extremes to be dealt with (lest it sweep your team), how hard would it be to use Magnezone or Starmie on your team to eliminate its two biggest weaknesses? Everyone here can agree that Salamence would be much more fearsome as a threat without the presence of Stealth Rock or Steel-types to beat it.

Well, that's because Salamence is the only Pokemon being argued for the Suspect Testing. Not Salamence and friends.

But even with that logic, okay, let's say Salamence has Magnezone and Rapid Spinner Starmie watching it's back. With Magnezone, I can send in my own Magnezone to trap his and do damage to it. Or I use CB Scizor's Superpower on the switch in to hurt Magnezone.

As for Starmie, I can use the omnipresent Rotom formes to spin block to ensure that my SR stays up and continues to hinder Pokemon (like Salamence) or I could send in my specially defensive T-tar or Scizor to Crunch, Pursuit, or U-turn.

Team building and Pokemon battling in general is a ridiculously large game of Rock-Paper-Scissors. Every Pokemon can be countered, you just need the right Pokemon to do so. That's why Team Building and Prediction are such important parts of the game.

 

[Flashstorm1]

EDIT: @Flashstorm1. If a Pokemon requires support to be a threat, it's probably NOT Uber. If it needs a Rapid Spinner or fast Taunt lead to avoid rocks - well those Pokemon can be countered. If it needs Magnezone to get rid of steels - well Magnezone can be dealt with.
If the supporter's job is very easy, then THEY are arguably the suspects.
Of course, the fact of the matter is Salamence does NOT require support to be a threat. It's perfectly capable of dealing with steels by itself, as long as the user isn't stupid enough to Outrage first thing. Stealth Rock makes it hard to switch it in more than once, but often it doesn't NEED to switch in more than once - the only thing that scares it out is faster ice moves, and none of their users can really switch in.

I have to agree here. Salamence does pose a large threat on it's own without any outside support. The problem here is that since Steel-types and Stealth Rock are the only things that can reliably weaken/beat it, if they are gone, then Salamence is going to have a field day. Add to that the fact that Steel-types are just about the only reliably switch-in to Salamence, and you can see why you can't pin the blame solely on Magnezone or Starmie.

With all these Pokemon that have great movesets and amazing abilities to help it in battle, I guess I don't understand why Salamence is being singled out when other Pokemon have the same BST and versatility.

As stated before, you have to remember that Salamence only has a definite "counter" in Steel-types, as they are the only ones which can reliably take Draco Meteor or Outrage. In the case of Jirachi, it can be countered by several Pokemon such as Gyarados, Heatran, Suicune, etc. Hidden Power Ground isn't going to do you much if the opponent doesn't have Heatran. With Salamence however, since anything that isn't Steel will likely die or be severely crippled by your Dragon-type attack of choice, it isn't hard to use just Earthquake or Fire Blast to KO the Steel-type switch-in. You could argue that it is prediction, which it is to a certain extent, but there isn't much you can do when you are left with little option but to "respond predictably".

 

[cantab]

Jirachi is a lot like Salamence in the sense that it has great typing, a fantastic ability as well as a versatile moveset, a 600 BST, and better than Salamence is that it resists Stealth Rock. And with SR being omnipresent in today's metagame, whenever Salamence switches in, he's fighting at 3/4 of it's total health.

With all these Pokemon that have great movesets and amazing abilities to help it in battle, I guess I don't understand why Salamence is being singled out when other Pokemon have the same BST and versatility.

BST is less important that individual stats. Jirachi's a lot UNLIKE Salamence in that Jirachi's offenses are 100/100, much weaker than Mence's 135/110. Mence also gets STAB on the single best attacking type, and 140 and 120 Base Power moves; Jirachi's best STABs have 80 and 90 BP. If Jirachi got Psycho Boost and Meteor Mash it would be a much bigger threat.

In a way, Mence is like 'the perfect storm'. Great offensive stats on both sides. The best attacking type in the game, with its most powerful moves. Powerful moves that hit SE the one type that resists its STAB. One of the better boosting moves. A good ability. Even reliable recovery (not that it's often used). No one of these things make Salamence suspect, but put together...I think it is.

EDIT: As I said before, I don't think anything, outside of Ubers, makes a more powerful mixed sweeper than Salamence. Azelf probably comes closest, but its Psychic comes nowhere near the power of Mence's Draco Meteor.

 

[xBLUEx]

The problem is, reliably having to revenge kill and sacrifice Pokemon is a reasonably clear indicator that the revenge-killed is very, very powerful if not uber.

If you ment what you said, revenge-killed, Salamence is almost like a glass cannon. In terms of taking it down, it doesn't take many hits. But if what you said was a typo and you ment revenge-killer referring to Salamence, you would usually sacrifice the Pokemon that you want wear down Salamence with, for example a Pokemon with Thundewave. Then send someone else in to finish off Salamence.

 

[Mattman324]

I'm on the fence about Salamence. He MAY be Uber, he may not be. I'm not sure. But if he isn't, he's one of those close ones. (Sala, Latias, Manaphy, Jirachi, and Pre-Plat Tyranitar are the ones.)

Meh. Give him a test, then we'll know for sure.

 

[Chou Toshio]

One thing I wanted to make note of is that many people are assuming that teams using Salamence won't actually have the rest of the team support it. You guys are assuming that Salamence is an independent Pokemon in most of these scenarios. Sure, Salamence is SR weak, but most teams will have a way to either prevent Stealth Rock from getting set up or simply to remove it from the field, particularly is the main focus of the team is Salamence itself. Fine, Salamence can get itself locked into Outrage, but most players are aware of such possibility and will carry Magnezone to KO Steels which can revenge kill Salamence. And I don't see why this cant be regarded as a common battle condition either. If Salamence requires such definite extremes to be dealt with (lest it sweep your team), how hard would it be to use Magnezone or Starmie on your team to eliminate its two biggest weaknesses? Everyone here can agree that Salamence would be much more fearsome as a threat without the presence of Stealth Rock or Steel-types to beat it.

To be fair, if you are going to consider outside teammates and support, then there are other pokemon who are far more fearsome than Salamence under the right conditions. For instance, I don't think anyone will deny that Kingdra is more fearsome than Salamence under rain. Walrein is definitely scarier than Salamence under hail. Hail and rain dance are both definitely easier to set up than Rapid Spin or trying to prevent those extremely highly specialized SR users! Oh, and you can throw in a pokemon to kill Tyranitar and Hippo to get rid of their "one weakness."

Considering Salamence's power under "ideal" circumstances set up by teammates is a bit unfair. Metagross passed Agility and Swords Dance by Gliscor is probably game over, and is similarly difficult to "keep SR off and kill 3-4 of their pokemon with Salamence." Hell, pulling off "conditions" for an Empoleon sweep is easier to set up than a Salamence sweep (and a lot less obvious-- the enemy won't know what hit him until you bring out Empoleon and they think, "huh, so that's why he sack'd half his team to take out Celebi and Blissey, and here I thought I was going to win. Shit.).

For this reason, considering Salamence as an individual pokemon getting bashed by SR and sand and dealing LO recoil on its best sets is the main way we should consider it. If SR was so easy to take out/prevent, it wouldn't be on almost every team.

 

[Flashstorm1]

The best option, in my opinion, would be to redefine the characteristics for uber as common battle conditions in itself is extremely vague. However, this thread isn't the place to do so sadly.

 

[cantab]

We had some lively discussion in the Blissey thread about defining Uber characteristics better.
About 'common battle conditions' - we could really do with stats on that. We have stats on what carries Stealth Rock, but not on how often it actually gets used, and how long it stays for before getting spun away. We have stats for how many teams carry Tyranitar or Hippowdon, but not for how often they actually come out.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I don't think it's possible to make perfect definitions for what should/should not be banned. Not to mention that as GF broadens the game, there will just be more examples of broken strategies that cannot be sorted out by any kind of definition we could make.

That's why I don't think we should be so hell bent on rationalizing everything. We should just give an open ear for consensus on the important idea: What do people want for this game? We just have to make sure that people really think about it and come to know exactly what it is they want through testing. As for rationalizing why they want it, I think we should just leave that be a bit more open ended.

Ultimately, people have talked about the Characteristics we have described and complained about how vague they are-- but you should realize that the Characteristics are meant to be guidelines. They offer no ultimate say on anything. They are only meant to guide discussion to help bring people to well thought opinions.

 

[Sc4rfCh0mp]

(Officially last post on Smogon, I really needed to say this)

When talking about what supplies an answer to Salamence, please, don't talk about "counters." We are currently in a very offensive metagame, where most Pokemon running around the tier don't have a solid counter. Most Pokemon have what is known as "checks", which can stop a certain Pokemon, but not directly. Let's take a look at what the difference is between a check and a counter in real battle situations:

A counter can directly stop the Pokemon in question with little to no effort. The Rotom formes are great examples of these to Gyarados. Gyarados can't do much to any Rotom forme unless it cares the rarely seen Bite. Rotom just shakes off Waterfall, Stone Edge, or Bounce and can respond with a powerful Thunderbolt or Discharge that kills Gyarados. This usually forces Gyarados to either switch out or sacrifice itself.

A check can't switch into a Pokemon directly, but once it is in safely on the Pokemon in question, it forces the other Pokemon out or beats it. A good example of this is Choice Band Tyranitar versus Life Orb Latias. Latias dreads Tyranitar's powerful Pursuit, but Tyranitar is also 2HKOed by LO Surf. If Tyranitar switches in directly to Latias, it gets hammered by Surf then either has to switch out or die the next turn. However, if Tyranitar comes in indirectly (aka from a U-Turn that was slower than Latias or after Latias has killed something), it scares away Latias with Pursuit or Crunch if Latias chooses to stay in, both of which can OHKO, so the Latias is beaten.

Just wanted to clear that up.

 

[Scofield]

I think that's the problem. You know what the 2 pokemon are that checks every version of salamence? Weavile and mamoswine. Yeah, mamo can be decent but that's a pretty sucktacular list as I don't want mamo or weavile on every team I make. Of course, you can always resort to some shitty scarfer like scarf starmie or scarf latias, but did I mention that those pokemon are shit? Each version of salamence has a check sure, but each version requires a different check, and before you know it I have to have 3 checks on my team, which seems a tad excessive. Before anyone asks: something faster that can ko non dd mence, priority to ko offensive dd mence, and a bulky water to ko bulky mence. Maybe you're just used to already including these on your teams, but I find it very limiting while team building. Or I could just use mamo on every fucking team.