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Sceptile's Return

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Texas Cloverleaf, Mar 9, 2012.

  1. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Oct 23, 2009
    Sceptile Returns to OU!

    I returned to OU after a long hiatus in RU recently when I discovered that teambuilding in OU could be creative and fun again, the team that sparked this being a Dark/Steel hybrid. Shortly after I rejoined Big Boy Birkal's Dark Horse project and decided to take my RU experience with me and use Sceptile as my main focus. The initial version of this team was...pretty terrible. It used Sand as a base and I am garbage with Tyranitar so that was scrapped pretty quickly. This version of the team was created about a week later along with Lady Salamence, and has done quite well from low expectations, shooting me into the top 80 on the ladder quickly, this also qualifying me to enter the Dark Horse Hall of Fame.

    About the Team

    Since the beginning of BW I have been, and undoubtedly will continue to be a Rain based user. Sun was fun with Blazekin but was difficult to get the hang of and Tyranitar was never workable for me so when Lady Salamence suggested Rain as a good partner for Sceptile I was quite enthused. Being a primarily balanced player, I quickly decided that I wanted to have an offensive core and a defensive core that could complement each other. As Sceptile was already filling the powerful special attacker role, Politoed became our bulky water, as well as a means of dealing with set up threats. Tentacruel then became a natural fit, with both of the team mates being vulnerable to entry hazards. Bringing Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin is a godsned, as well as being a bulky water with a unique set of resistances that are incredibly useful. The next two Pokemon weren't contrived at all but ended up falling in place on their own. I had used SubCM Jirachi and SubBounce Gyarados a long time ago in the beginning of Round 4 and loved how they worked. Jirachi was the first to join the team and Gyarados quickly followed, being able to set up on the Gastrodon that cockblock Jirachi. The final Pokemon was the most natural fit possible. I needed hazards. I needed a Rotom-W check. I needed a member of my defensive core to provided resistances and to cover the weaknesses of the two bulk waters. Ferrothorn was a perfect fit.


    Politoed (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Toxic
    - Protect
    - Perish Song

    Politoed, the Pokemon that engenders Rain teams on its own. Politoed fulfils a fairly critical role on this team aside from summoning the Rain, that being a Terrakion check, its maximized defensive EVs allowing to to take an attack or two from powerful attackers including the aforementioned Terrakion and Scizor quite well. Scald is a generally awesome move, fishing for burns on the physical attackers it checks, as well as making it dangerous for Tyranitar to switch in. Toxic and Protect allow Politoed to play mindgames with Pokemon such as Hydreigon or Latios, which will often come in after a Volt Switch. The combination of the two moves is an effective means of stalling out set up sweepers on its own and Protect is great in general for scouting, as well as Leftovers recovery. Perish Song is the final move of the set; the least used move but one of the most important. Perish Song saves me from plenty of random set up attackers gone rampant, SubSD Lando that has set up, CM Reuniclus, even opposing Dragonite, although it shouldn't have to do that too often. Politoed is just generally an excellent Pokemon and almost never disappoints, although its performance against Breloom and Celebi is regrettable.

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 224 Def / 32 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Wish
    - Calm Mind
    - Thunder
    - Water Pulse

    Jirachi, despite being one of my sweepers, plays a critical role in supporting my team, passing off wishes to the members that lack reliable recovery (all of them bar Tenta). To be honest, I don't play Jirachi as aggressively as perhaps I should, and Gyarados often suffers for it, taking Stealth Rock damage unnecessarily. The combination of Tuhunder and Water Pulse in Rain is a complete dick, both moves being boosted by the Rains power, one in power and the other in accuracy. With Serene Grace in effect Thunder will most frequently paralyse an opponent with its 60% chance of activation, and following up with Water Pulse's 40% confusion chance makes it difficult for an opponent to beat Jirachi. Calm Mind boosts these moves, and allows Jirachi to set up on and beat Special Attackers including Reuniclus and Latios. And of course Wish is as good as ever, allowing effective, if volatile, recovery. Jirachi has been the team member I've been least impressed with and I am considering several changes, including switching to a defensive set, switching to a SubCM set and switching to a Magnezone to alleviate Ferrothorn from troubling my team. I am open to all suggestions here.

    Tentacruel (M) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Protect

    Tentacruel was initially placed on the team solely because I needed a Rapid Spinner and Rain+Rapid Spin=Tentacruel. Tentacruel has proven to be even greater than I thought it could be, walling and stalling so much its not funny. Aside from giving my checks to Infernape and Volcorona, Tentacruel acts and an excellent physical wall with its great defensive typing and resistances, which allows me to save Politoed until I need it late game. Scald is the standard dick move that fishes for Burn hax with ease; Tentacruel's good Special Attack means I can use it to take down opponent Substitutes and whatnot as well. Rapid Spin is crucial for this team, although I haven't had much occasion to use it these days. Tentacruel itself absorbs Toxic Spikes for the team, but clearing away Stealth Rock for Gyarados and Spikes for Ferrothorn and Sceptile is huge in ensuring their longevity. My own Toxic Spikes makes my defensive core incredibly difficult to beat if I get a pair of layers down as between the two water types Protects, Gyarados's Intimidate and Ferrothorns resistances little can take down a member quickly. Protect is honestly my favourite move ever for Tentacruel; I used to used a Sub/SD/Protect Tentacruel way back when and being able to stall out any slower mon due to Protect+Rain Dish healing a quarter of my health was precious. Protect is honestly amazing, just as with Gliscor, turning so many 1 or 2HKOs into 2 or 3HKOs that it isn't funny. So yeah, pretty critical mon.

    Sceptile (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Overgrow
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Giga Drain
    - Leaf Storm
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Sceptile, the Pokemon this team started from, definitely hasn't disappointed from what it was expected to do. While I can't claim its a top-notch underrated threat in OU, its certainly capable of hanging with the big boys, the main asset, of course, being its base 120 Speed, which allows it to outrun just about everything in OU. Although Sceptile is frail, its still capable of switching into resisted hits when it has to, including Rotom-W's Volt Switch, which then allows it to threaten the opponent. Admittedly, Sceptile's role is usually that of clean up, a job it performs admirably, with Grass/Fighting/Ice getting solid coverage on the majority of the tier. As very little can outspeed Sceptile its quite easy to clean through teams, Giga Drain recovering off any Life Orb and residual damage that may be incurred. Unfortunately, Sceptilesuffers early game due to the large number of Pokemon that can take its attacks without too much difficulty when healthy, but fortunately a Life Orb Leaf Storm ensures that they don't remain healthy for long. Despite its flaws Sceptile really does great at its job; the number of Landorus that expect to be faster of to survive a Grass attack is really amusing.

    Gyarados (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 56 HP / 248 Atk / 204 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Dragon Dance
    - Waterfall
    - Bounce

    Gyarados...is a huge pivot for my team, Intimidate is just so crucial in walling and checking physical threats. SubBounce has been great for a good while but hasn't seemed to be pulling its weight in this team but I'll get to that later. Substitute protects Gyarados from status, which it abhors, and lets it set up on walls like Gastrodon, especially useful for Jirachi. Dragon Dance is the standard boosting move, etc, and Waterfall powers through things in Rain after a DD. Bounce rounds out coverage and lets me hit things like Celebi that can dick with my team otherwise. There's a few reasons I'm considering adjusting Gyarados. Firstly, its the primary method of dealing with Ferrothorn; Ferrothorn takes ~60% from a Sceppy FB so I usually wear Ferro down with hazards and force it out with Gyarados to kill it. Secondly, Substitute, alongside Stealth Rocks, is brutal on its HP, especially when I don't get Jirachi in too frequently. Thirdly, I use it as a check to a lot of physical threats such as Gliscor before it gets under a Sub as well as Landorus. Changes I'm considering is either making Gyarados bulkier, enough to have its Subs survive a Power Whip from Ferrothorn after Intimidate, or giving Gyarados Taunt over Substitute, or adding Earthquake over Bounce in order to help deal with Toxicroak, as the Bulk Up set is an absolute dick to my team. This and Jirachi are the key points to be addressed.

    Ferrothorn (F) @ Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spikes
    - Power Whip
    - Gyro Ball

    Ferrothorn, as mentioned before, was the perfect fit for this team, giving me key resistances to Electric mons (Rotom-W) and a defensive Dragon resist. As my team lacks a spinblocker, Rocky Helmet was something I wanted to throw on to punish Starmie, Forretress and Donphan for staying in on me. It also checks Dragonite under Rain really well, makes it a difficult situation for it to win in. With dual hazards I gain every type of hazard on my team but of course, leave Ferrothorn with no method of recovery outside of Rachi Wishes which are unreliable at best. As such, I figured that Ferrothorn would need as great an offensive presence as possible and so gave it both STABs, the former to handle bulky water and ground mons, especially Gastrodon, and the latter being my Dragon killer (minus Hydreigon). Really there's not much to say about Ferrothorn, it just does its job so well. Leech Seed is missed on occasion, so if I did go to a defensive Jirachi I would definitely put Stealth Rock on it and Leech Seed in place here. The EV spread is full specially defensive because its my only fully specially defensive oriented Pokemon and I needed it to be able to tank Rain boosted Hydro Pumps as best as it could.

    This team has been a blast to use, as it fits both my style of play and my preferred weather; abusing Sceptile has been great as well. Of course, there are some holes in places and that's where I'm hoping you guys can help me out :) The only thing I ask when rating is that you keep in mind the synergy of the team as a whole and the playstyle I prefer to use.

    Lady Salamence for creating the team with me and picking out several teammates and sets
    Tomohawk9 for suggesting a SubCharge Magnezone that hasn't been used and generally being a good guy
    Me for not being too lazy to write this
    You for reading it xD
  2. Spiegelmann


    Mar 3, 2012
    Have you tried using thunder wave on ferrothorn? I know you have jirachi with thunder, but you might want a more consistent way of crippling opponents. I'd think ferrothorn would also be on the field much earlier than jirachi anyway, which could let it set up a sweep for sceptile or gyarados by slowing down scarfers or something of the sort. Having t-wave on ferrothron also just makes it that much more annoying for your opponent, having two pretty reliable ways of shutting down offensive threats.
  3. Dzreams


    Feb 20, 2012
    Can I just complement you on the quality of this RMT! No massive pictures, well written text and nothing superfluous. A rarity in this forum it seems.
  4. lapras6666


    Jul 17, 2011
    Hey, solid team.

    Now, here are the checks that could dent this team hard: http://pastebin.com/mHBbmqhQ

    Now, you see that all of these threats are special threats, your team could really benefit from a special wall that isn't CM/Substitute set up fodder. A possible replacement for Ferrothorn could be Bronzong, since it can wall threats like Alakazam or Magnezone. The problem with this is that you lose Spikes, but I think that with SR and T-spikes you'll be good.

    Here's the set:
    Bronzong @ Leftovers
    252 HP / 48 Def / 208 Def
    Stealth Rock
    Toxic (for Latias and such)
    Gyro Ball

    Good luck!
  5. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Oct 23, 2009
    Thunder Wave on Ferrothorn actually sounds quite good, I can see it being huge in giving Gyarados free Substitutes and Jirachi better healing. Only thing is the 4MSS Ferro has right now, but I'll definitely keep this in mind, thanks.

    Haha thanks! I like a flashy RMT as much as the next guy but simplicity definitely has its place. It helps that all the mons are colour coordinated xD

    Wll Latias isn't a problem at all, as Ferrothorn walls offensive sets and Jirachi will beat CM sets, and Gengar is handled fine by Tentacruel due to Protect both blocking Disable and healing off HSadow Ball/Pain SPlit damage, but the other two can be annoying, although Alakazam is fortunately rare and Magnezone is hard pressed to switch in on anything excpet Ferro (if it comes in on a Water type and its Choiced than Ferro loves free hazards). The one time I faced an Alakazam Gyara was fortunately sweeping but I can definitely see it as a problem. I don't think I'd be willing to replace Ferrothorn straight off just to handle it but I'll definitely keep your suggestion in mind, thanks.
  6. Warahyuu


    Aug 7, 2005
    Solid team and well presented. I think you should use a SubCM Jirachi over your current set. Ferrothorn looks bothersome but Jirachi can setup on it. If you opt for Psyshock over Thunder, it could help check Toxicroak as well.

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 80 SAtk / 176 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Calm Mind
    - Thunder / Psyshock
    - Water Pulse
  7. WDFAmatt


    Sep 23, 2011
    I agree using SubCM Rachi as it can set up on a lot of things, such as Ferrothorn, opposing Jirachi, Blissey, Chansey, Reuniclus etc as these pokes look a little annoying for your team so definitely try it out over your current Rachi set. Still, a solid team nonetheless :]
  8. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Oct 23, 2009
    As harsha said, Wish is the the only method I have of healing my team. That said the way I play the team doesn't seem to allow me to get too many Wishes off, so as I mentioned previously a SubCM set is something I'm considering, in part because of how much Rachi dislikes status.
  9. Harsha

    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 18, 2011

    So this team has been neglected a bit, and I want to get back into rating; you see where I'm going? Now this team does a really good job of supporting a Sceptile sweep in the endgame, which was the idea you formed a team on. Some things to consider would be using a SubSD Terrakion instead to beat down threats quickly and with Speed. While you will obviously lose a great pivot defensively, offensively, this would allow you to beat down Ferrothorn. Additionally, Terrakion is not weak to Stealth Rock, and you already have one of the better checks to Dragons and physically-based threats in Jirachi, so I don't think you would miss Gyarados too much. Besides, Gyarados has seemed to disappoint, so I'm sure testing Terrakion would be a fun idea.

    Now, I would be really worried about Magnezone if I were you, actually. I think you should really consider using a Shed Shell on Ferrothorn so it does not become setup fodder and you can just switch out and hit it back hard with Sceptile. While you would lose that residual damage that you do to Scizor and Landorus every time you switch, I feel as though it would help you in the long run. While you are at it, test out Thunder Wave instead of Gyro Ball because without Thunder Wave, bulky Gyarados and bulky Dragonite can really setup alongside Ferrothorn without too much of a problem. Other than these minor changes, I really like the team as a whole. Congratulations on making the Dark Horse hall of fame!

    sets (open)
    Terrakion @ Rock Gem / Life Orb
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA)
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - Substitute
    - Swords Dance

    notes: run a life orb if you don't care about the recoil. i personally don't like it, but you have wish support so you may find it useful.

    Good luck! Hope I helped!
  10. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 6, 2009
    Hey Texas, didn't know you were an OU man too! This is a very solid team, although I'm left scratching my head as to why you're not using a SubSeed Sceptile. You have all these beautiful hazards, and yet you're not abusing them to the fullest imo. Sceptile can force switches like no other, racking up Spikes and SR damage if they switch, or Leech Seed and Toxic Spikes if they stay in. A simple set of Substitute, Leech Seed, Giga Drain and HP Ice would probably do really well. Second, Ferrothorn and Jirachi. While WishCM is cool, I think your team would benefit even more from a Stealth Rock, Wish, Iron Head, Thunder variant. You keep the awesome paralysis chance, but now have an even higher chance to flinch as well, as well as Iron Head being more powerful than Water Pulse. This would free up another moveslot on Ferrothorn, allowing you to run Leech Seed there too. Not only does this provide recovery for Ferrothorn, but with a secondary Leech Seeder, you'll be draining health from your opponent passively so fast it won't even be funny. If you decide to do this, Leftovers is probably a better item for it.

    In short:
    SubSeed Sceptile > Special Sweeper Sceptile
    Stealth Rock and Iron Head on Jirachi > Calm Mind and Water Pulse
    Leech Seed on Ferrothorn > Stealth Rock

    I'm anxious since I changed quite a bit, but the Pokemon stay the same. Basically my version of the team would be a bigger focus on passive pain than straightout sweeping. Good Luck with the team, congrats on the Hall of Fame, and basically really nice team! :D
  11. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Dec 22, 2004
    Hmm, Cherub Agent's Leech Seed suggestion is pretty tempting, especially with all the hazards you got there. It may be worth giving it a shot :d

    You may possibly want Scizor over Jirachi. Like your CM Jirachi, It can still dispatch Psychic-types, as well as finish off Dragon-types with a strong Bullet Punch. Even more, it readily beats Ferrothorn. Personally, I prefer SD Scizor, but CB Scizor is also a good option of course.

    Scizor (open)
    Scizor @ Metal Coat
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
    - U-turn
    - Bullet Punch
    - Swords Dance
    - Superpower

    This is the set I like to recommend, because it's flexible and safe-to-use. U-turn provides the ever useful switch advantage when Scizor is not ready to sweep. Superpower is necessary to deal hefty damage to Steel-types. Although not as strong as a CB Bullet Punch, Metal Coat and max Atk EVs allow its Bullet Punch to eliminate fast threats effectively, while also bluffing Scizor as a CB variant

    Physically defensive Latias is also worth a shot. It pretty much checks the same Pokemon as Gyarados, but it also comes with a Grass- and Electric-type resistance, which would come in handy when needing to deal with Magnezone or NP Celebi for instance. Rather than Reflect, however, I suggest Roar to phaze out mons like Bulk Up Toxicroak and SubCM Jirachi. With hazards coming from Ferrothorn, Latias can wear down the team considerably.

    physically defensive Latias (open)
    Latias @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spe
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Calm Mind
    - Roar / Reflect
    - Recover

    Alternative EV spread would be 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe to outrun Adamant Toxicroak

    IMO defensive Politoed is rather overrated and exploitable, and should not be used other than in a stall team. I believe you will have much more success using say a ScarfToed to revenge-kill DD Dragonite or a SpecsToed to punch through weakened teams. If you want to stick with a defensive Politoed, I'd at least stick Ice Beam over Protect so that Politoed isn't free set-up bait for Dragonite and such. If Perish Song hasn't been pulling its weight, you can also try Encore, which can disrupt set-up sweepers, and allow you to safely switch out.

    Hopefully this helped - best of success with this Dark Horse Team, Texas! Keep on climbing the ladder ;)
  12. |DarkSector|


    Jun 1, 2009
    Solid team here, I tried it and worked out well I'd say.

    You could try a Taunt DD Gyarados that, even if it seems pretty shitty compared to Substitute ones (but remember that it can beat opposing Gyarados), could help a lot vs Skarmory that combined with Gastrodon walls out the shit of your team, since your Toxic Spikes are always going to be spinned because of you not having an anti spinner. Also, Psychic on Jirachi over Water Pulse would be great for even hit Gastrodon but, mainly, help with Conkeldurr / Toxicroak (and even Venusaur lol) since I don't see the utility of Water Pulse and, actually after a BU Conkeldurr can damage a lot of stuff.

    The next and last suggestion is X-Scissor > Giga Drain on Sceptile giving him an Hasty nature. (60 Atk / 232 SAtk / 216 Spd is fine, it still outspeeds Starmie)
    You'll lose a reliable way to get some health back but you'll get a way to then take out a bit-weakened Celebi wich is a treath and with Nasty Plot + Earth Power nearly 6-0es you. ^^ (consider 124 Evs in Atk for the OHKO on 4 HP | 0 Def Celebi after rocks but imho you don't need them, because Leaf Storms OR Spikes are damaging on the switch and you should have to split Spd and SAtk evs to give him them..)

    Just try out. ._.' Hope I helped, good luck and cool idea you had here.
  13. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Oct 23, 2009
    Terrakoin sounds like a pretty good idea, certainly seems like a quick way to get me to use Jirachi more effectively although I can see myself really missing Intimidate against some attackers that I want to weaken right off the bat, I'll definitely try it out.

    Magnezone hasn't really been a problem for me tbh, its rarely seen and I've been able to deal with it fine when I have seen it. Thunder Wave is nice, but tbf I never saw a bulkDos and if DNite wants to set up it can have fun taking ull powered Gyro Balls to the face, especially when its taking 25% on the turn it tries to attack Ferrothorn.

    SubSeed Sceppy is a cool idea, and definitely one I'll try out, the only thing I dont like is that lack of immediate cleaning power I get with my current Sceppy. In most matches it cleans up admirably so I'm hesitant to change it right off the bat. The other two changes are very nice ones as they address a large number of my problems without losing much from my team. I really like that they make Jirachi a more pivital defensive figure as that frees up Politoed to go offensive with Scarf or Specs. Definitely going to try out these changes.

    Intriguing suggestions Pocket, not ones I would have ever considered for the team. I like the idea of a Metal Coat Scizor, that felxibility is huge on a team like this, and the power of the Punch would help a lot with things like a runaway MoxieMence. Latias is also a very interesting choice and one I defenitely want to try, that phazing ability alongside its sweeping potential is hige, although I'm leery of Tyranitar if I go that route. ScarfToed is the set that I like the most of the cahnges, especially if I go with Cherub Agents changes above, that extra power without sacrificing defensive coverage will be huge for the team.

    Not a fan of all the changes necessarily but I'm absolutely loving the suggestion of Psychic over Water Pulse, as that not only covers Toxicroak and BU Conkeldurr, who irritated my quite a lot when I played them, but also gives me a more effective means of dealing with Terrakion, as Water Pulse often disappointed when I used Rachi as a check to him. GastroSkarm isnt actually as effective as you make out, as Gyarados sets up on Gastro with ease and does close to half to Skarm with Waterfall at +1, and the other member of my team, especially Rachi, can threaten it out without too much difficulty.

    Havent had a chance to try out the changes yet since Spring Break but one I get back I'll do so asap
  14. Bossnine


    May 16, 2009
    Ever since Gen 4, my favorite set for Gyara has been this:

    Gyarados @Leftovers
    156 HP / 96 Atk / 90 Def / 168 Speed
    -Sub/Taunt (I prefer Sub)
    -Stone Edge/Bounce (Normally run SE, but you'd get better use from Bounce)

    Its a variant of the BulkyDos set. BulkyDoes used to be VERY bulky back in early Gen4, then later they made it a bit more offensive. This Gyara is my own spin on it. Used to run 90 Atk and 96 Def, but I switched them for those extra 3 Atk points lol.

    Sadly, and it DOES lose attacking power (only 310), but +1 Bounce will still be doing tons to Celebi and Toxicroak (of course, if it isn't behind a Sub), and Waterfall gets the rain boost, anyways. 168 Speed with Jolly hits 264. It outspeeds max speed Breloom, at +1 it outspeeds max speed base 130's, and at +2 it outspeeds Timid Choice Scarf 110's like Lati@s. Also, the HP and Def EV's help tremendously, especially with the Sub up.

    You could run Adamant, too, since 130's aren't as common anymore and most Lati@s I see are Specs Latios and defensive Latias. You could run more Attak, but with Adamant I run 180 speed to hit 243 (tie TTar's and beat Starmies at +1) and 84 Atk, which hits 337.

    Maybe this more defensive set will help!


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