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Setup Hell

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by Ewil, Feb 8, 2012.

  1. Ewil

    Ewil

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    467
    Introduction

    Hi guys ! I'm Ewil and this is my first NU RMT, i'd create this team in a sort of 10 minutes thinking only on the major threats that NU has and it works pretty well on the ladder, ensuring me a top40 place (not too high, but i want to climb the ladder with your suggestions :D). I praticcaly never loose with this team except 2 times (1 for a good opponent and another for an important crit). So, let's see what you can do for me to improve this team ;D

    Team Building Process

    1) [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    2) [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    3) [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Team at a Glance

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Analysis

    [​IMG]

    Miltank (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Scrappy
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    • Heal Bell
    • Curse
    • Body Slam
    • Milk Drink
    CurseTank is the first of my three setupper (four if we count Haunter's Sub) and can function even as a cleric with Heal Bell. Her job is to coming on a wall and starts to setup a couple of curse, after this, she can start to sweep any pkmn (Even Ghosts thanks to Scrappy) and spreading paralysis (Thanks to the good 30% chance of Body Slam). Her natural bulk plus the boost in defense thanks to Curse, gives to Miltank a damn good survival and sweeping chance. Milk Drink is for recovery. Heal Bell cures Miltank and her team mates from status. Body Slam is the STAB attack of choice. With this set, Miltank only suffers Sleep, strong Fight STAB attack and Crits.​

    [​IMG]

    Shelgon (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Rock Head
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    • Wish
    • Protect
    • Toxic
    • Dragon Claw
    Shelgon have saved me in a lot of situation against physical sweepers. His bulk is amazing with the Eviolite boost and can tank even strong boosted physical attacks and WishProtect in answer. She is the healer of the team passing decent Wish to her team mates. She can Toxic and Dragon Claw is here for some damages and to not let Shelgon being totally fucked when Taunted.​

    [​IMG]

    Skuntank (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Aftermath
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    • Taunt
    • Sucker Punch
    • Pursuit
    • Crunch
    Oh my god ! Skuntank is so scary ! Provides to my team what my team have always wish: A priority user (Sucker Punch), a Tauter (Taunt Duh), a Toxic Spikes Absorber, a Psychic & Ghost trapper (Pursuit) and some usefull resistances and a immunity to a common type in this tier. With this pokemon a lot of problem are solved, i put Crunch as last lost for hitting Duosion harder. Thanks to Zebraiken for suggesting me this set.​

    [​IMG]

    Throh (M) @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Guts
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    • Bulk Up
    • Circle Throw
    • Payback
    • Rest
    Comments soon . . . read post #5 for now​

    [​IMG]

    Haunter (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    • Substitute
    • Shadow Ball
    • Hidden Power [Ground]
    • Pain Split
    SubSplit Haunter needs more love, guys ! He is so awesome and powerful ! After entering the battle on a wall (or switch on a predicted toxic or immunity) everyone expects that he is scarfed, so they switch out (or in the case of Absol, starts to Sucker punch) only to see Haunter setup a Sub and proceed to sweep the incoming counter with his powerful STAB attack in Shadow Ball and HP Ground for coverage and hitting hard some threats like Bastiodon. Pain Split is a good recovery that can even weaken the opponent.​

    [​IMG]

    Camerupt (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Solid Rock
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    • Stealth Rock
    • Earth Power
    • Fire Blast
    • Roar
    Camerupt is the Stealth Rock setter of the team and she is my lead 70% of the times. Having the Stealth Rock on the opponent's field at the beginning of the battle is always a good thing, and Camerupt do this job pretty well. She have also good STAB attacks in Earth Power and Fire Blast and can phaze key threats for me with Roar and a bit of prediction. She also my special wall thanks to her HP and SDef and the an awesome ability in Solid Rock. This set also allow her to counter two common fearsome threats for any team: Magmortar and Rotom-S (Rotom can only Trick her).​

    Changes (?)

    [​IMG] Scarf Rotom-F > [​IMG] Throh

    Rotom-F can be usefull at countering Gorebyss since he have a nice resistance to Ice Attack that prevents any unboosted Gorebyss attack to hit him hard (the real difference between F & S) and he have Blizzard, not so accurate but more powerfull and can hit Quagsire pretty hard i think.
    Have to test yet.

    [​IMG] SubCM/Coil Serperior > [​IMG] Throh

    Serperior have that sexy speed & Grass type that can be usefull for my most slow team. Countering a lot of threats for this team such Quagsire & Gorebyss (if i can predict good for the last one i think) I'm thinking even for a SubCoil set, just have to test both and let you know. Maybe this team lack a bit of sinergy with him but not that much in my opinion.

    Conclusions

    Hope you all enjoy my RMT and can suggest me a lot of things to improve this team :) (Tip: i fu**in' love gimmick sets as you can see :P).
    So please rate me and if you have any question, just ask to me :D

    Last thing: i don't have a real Threat list and i don't even find a real pkmn that gives this team problems (maybe Rain team can be threating).
  2. spuds4ever

    spuds4ever

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Messages:
    705
    A good team. Though I haven't played a lot of NU, I can see that any decently fast lead (golbat anyone?) or indeed anything which has speed and taunt, could really give your team problems as it really lacks offensive presence without setting up.

    For example, fraxure is going to give this team a really hard time if he carries taunt, which easily by-passes quagsire. I'm not completely sure what to do about it, though. Perhaps consider natu (although I'm not sure if mold breaker by-passes magic bounce when fraxure taunts, in-put someone?), who would give your team a much easier time with dual-screens while still preserving momentum if need be with u-turn.

    Also, use HP fighting over sludge bomb on haunter as it provides much better coverage and hits pesky dark-types much harder.
  3. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist PU! We don't stink though!
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnus
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    I agree that Taunt severely hampers your team, though Jumpluff outspeeds most Taunt users. As for HP Fighting, Sludge Bomb does more to most of the common Dark-types of the tier, except for Skuntank which you will have trouble with in general. So HP Ground would probably work better for Skuntank, and covers Steels as well. I feel though that you don't have anything that can handle Special Sweepers, especially Shell Smash Gorebyss who can set up on many of your support moves and sweep most of your team if it has HP Grass (many do). Maybe replace one of your set up sweepers with a fast revenge killer like Jynx or Rotom-S? Or you can replace Jumpluff with Cacturne with Water Absorb and Sucker Punch. Hope this helps!
  4. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken
    is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
    NU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,318
    Hey Ewil,

    I like the usage of several underrated sets - Curse Miltank with Heal Bell is awfully annoying (how the hell do you kill it ;;), SD Jumpluff is pretty effective as long as that dastardly 75% accuracy Sleep Powder hits, and that Quagsire set is basically unkillable without Toxic. This is an interesting and solid team, and I think your rapid ladder climbing is a result of that. I do remember playing you with it; you had troubles handling special Samurott (granted, it's really pretty uncommon!). Water-types that have a way to bypass Quagsire, such as the aforementioned Samurott with Grass Knot, Gorebyss, and Simipour breeze through your team, which is a pretty big issue we gotta look into (rain teams). Also like you mentioned, Toxic Spikes can also be a problem, even though you have Heal Bell on Miltank. Before we get onto my solutions, I do want to question one moveset choice you made here; why are you running Fire Blast on Shelgon? It doesn't hit anything important ("surprise factor" really isn't valid reasoning) and you have a -SpA nature on it anyway. Go ahead and change Fire Blast to Dragon Claw. also it changes genders in your description??

    Anyway, my thoughts:

    1. [​IMG] Gorebyss and other similar attackers such as Simipour
      WhiteDMist hit the nail on the head with this one. Currently, you're absolutely throttled by Gorebyss, and that's not a good thing. Gorebyss can buy an easy set-up turn if it's double-switched into Camerupt, who is too vital to your team to really risk losing it to a potential Surf. From there, a +2/+2 Timid LO Gorebyss has the ability to OHKO your entire team; Miltank is OHKO'd by Surf after SR, Ice Beam > Shelgon, Quagsire dies to HP Grass (that is, if it doesn't get an Amnesia boost in first, in which case it sort of has a chance to stall it out), Jumpluff is outsped and OHKOed by Ice Beam, Haunter dies to everything, and Camerupt obviously loses to Surf. It's easily the biggest threat to your team, and as such should be top priority here. There aren't many changes that can be made without disturbing the Pokemon you have laid out here, though. :/ You can try Lickilicky over Miltank, as it will play somewhat of a similar role, coupling Heal Bell with reliable recovery, and it tanks special attackers really well. On the other hand, Lickilicky's Wish support proves to be rather redundant with Shelgon (though Lickilicky's is generally much better, thanks to its higher HP).

      Offensive partners are certainly worth consideration too, and they can take the place of either Jumpluff or Haunter, both of whom lack any real synergy with the team. Sure, they're neat gimmicks, but they don't really help any solidified team goal. Choice Scarf Rotom-S is probably the best fit over either, as it provides that vital EQ immunity and is currently one of the best Choice Scarf users in NU. It also revenges that lovely Gorebyss, as well as Simipour, Swellow, etc. Lastly, the final check I want you to consider is Bulk Up Throh. With maximum SpD investment, Throh can tank an attack from Gorebyss and phaze it out later. Throh also fits with that "don't let them set up" theme that you're trying to follow here, as it can Bulk Up and then Circle Throw things around so they don't set up on you. It's definitely worth considering two or more checks to Gorebyss, simply because it's so instantly threatening, and because you carry Camerupt who forces you to play the gambling game of "do I risk a KO and go for the Roar, or try to switch out of the Surf and risk it setting up?" Other notable Gorebyss checks include Jynx and priority users, such as Absol.
    2. [​IMG] Toxic Spikes
      This isn't really as obvious, nor is it as much of a problem because you still have Heal Bell from Miltank (though you only have 8 uses...). Your entire defensive core is vulnerable and heavily stunted by Toxic Spikes, particularly Quagsire whose entire purpose is defeated when it gets Toxic'd. Obviously there are a couple of ways to fix this: one, pick up a Poison-type, or two, pick up a Rapid Spin user. If you opt for the latter, I'd strongly suggest Specially Defensive Cryogonal, preferably over one of your two offensivish Pokemon (Jumpluff or Haunter). Cryogonal spins away Toxic Spikes and other detrimental hazards, while performing a decent job preventing set-up itself via Haze. Cryo also has pretty good synergy with the rest of the team, as the few special attackers that really threaten it (Magmortar) are handled by Camerupt, whereas basically every physical threat in NU is walled by Shelgon. As far as Poison-types go, you have limited options and it's really just a choice of preference at that point. Garbodor sets up entry hazards fairly easily and thanks to the switches your team forces, they're well-abused. Toxic Spikes in particular helps out both Miltank and Quagsire as they set up, allowing you to be less worried about crits and opposing Pokemon setting up alongside them. Skuntank also picks up those Toxic Spikes and gives you some strong priority in Sucker Punch to help check Gorebyss and other such Pokemon if necessary. There are quite a few other Poison-types that might be worth considering, like Curse Muk, Aromatherapy Vileplume, and Amoonguss, but I'm not going to post those sets simply because I'm already posting so many already lol. If you're interested in those, shoot me a VM and I'll give you the sets.​

    I think those changes should significantly help your team and prepare it much more for other teams you will encounter while laddering. Following this are the (many) sets I mentioned above, for easy reference. I'd advise mixing and matching some of these options, especially since your two issues have a ton of different solutions that could potentially be effective, depending on your playstyle. Experiment!

    doop dah doop (open)

    [​IMG]
    Lickilicky @ Leftovers | Own Tempo
    Careful nature (+SpD, -SpA) | 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Protect / Wish / Heal Bell or Dragon Tail / Return

    [​IMG]
    Rotom-S @ Choice Scarf | Levitate
    Timid nature (+Spe, -Atk) | 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Volt Switch / Air Slash / Thunderbolt / Hidden Power Grass or Trick

    [​IMG]
    Throh @ Chesto Berry | Guts
    Careful nature (+SpD, -SpA) | 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Bulk Up / Circle Throw / Payback / Rest

    [​IMG]
    Cryogonal @ Leftovers | Levitate
    Calm nature (+SpD, -Atk) | 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
    Ice Beam / Rapid Spin / Haze / Recover

    [​IMG]
    Garbodor @ Leftovers | Stench
    Impish nature (+Def, -SpA) | 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Toxic Spikes / Gunk Shot / Payback / Spikes or Haze

    [​IMG]
    Skuntank @ Life Orb or Leftovers | Aftermath
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SpA) | 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
    Sucker Punch / Pursuit / Poison Jab / Taunt or Crunch


    Hope I helped, and GL with your team!

    edit @ other rates: mold breaker bypasses magic bounce
  5. Ewil

    Ewil

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    467
    So Guys, thanks a lot for your rates !
    Let's start to answer:

    Yeah ! I'm weak to Taunt, but i've always play around it with nice predictions, so rarely i found myself totally trapped by this move.

    The real problems are Rain & T-Spikes and the suggestion of Zebraiken are very usefull !
    I've replaced Jump & Quag with Throh & Skunktank (for a short period i've tested Cacturn, but he's too frail for my kind of team) and for now, they're doing their job pretty well, for now i don't see too many Gorebyss around, so i can't test the real walling capabilities of Throh. For Skunktank, i use a totatl dark move set in Taunt/Crunch/Pursuit/Sucker Punch since i'm a bit aware of Duosion, so Crunch can come in handy :D
    Taunt is a god send for this mon, being Will-O bait, i can Taunt for free and now i'm considering the idea to run Speed EVs on the little skunk, but i'm not really sure about what outspeeding lol

    I've run HP Ground on Haunter and it doing pretty well except that i'm attackless against Swellow & Braviary (the most common), but that's not a real big problem, since i've Pain Split if i'm behind a sub, and i've Shelgon defending me from Physical hit.

    So, thanks a lot again, and continue to suggest gimmicky sets, i really appreciate your help :D

    P.S. Happy Birthday to me lol

    edit: the OP will be edited soon
  6. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist PU! We don't stink though!
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnus
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    Hmm, with your changes Quagsire ironically walls most of your team, except for Shelgon. Skuntank can Taunt it, but an Earthquake will still do 63.4% - 75.1% to it. My biggest question now is what role does Haunter play in this updated team? It is the frailest Poke you have, isn't a fast enough revenge killer, and it doesn't fit in with your bulky attacker/defensive team, except as a spinblocker. Have you considered Misdreavus for the slot? Other than a slight danger to Swords Dance Samurott (it can still set up on half your team and and threaten your team if Shelgon faints) this team looks decent! :)
  7. Ewil

    Ewil

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    467
    That's true ! But Haunter function as bluffing a scarf set, since i've Life Orb, and so, he can proceed to setup a sub and start sweeping hard. His sweep capabilities never disapointing me and if the opponent's Quaggy is physically defensive, Haunter can 2HKO with Shadow Ball i think. I never let Shelgon faints early (excepts for crits) since is the main physical wall and WishProtect with her is so easy, so i can wait that quaggy became the last opponen's pokemon and toxic him and waiting for his death, or just waiting that his/her heal beller faints :)

    edit: i've place some possible good mons for the Throh place, what you think about them ? Have to test yet. Damn work and lag D:

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