Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt
- Nature's Madness
- Moonblast
- Whirlpool
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Resource Simple Questions, Simple Answers Thread (read the op before posting a thread)
- Thread starter Celticpride
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Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt
- Nature's Madness
- Moonblast
- Whirlpool
Rotom-C
In all seriousness, Choice Scarf Kartana is very effective at checking Mega Swampert due to them all running an Adamant Nature. In the same vein, Scarf Latios and Scarf Pump Gren (Protean) are great too. In the realm of Grass-types, Tapu Bulu and Ferrothorn (this one's a tad defensive) can also make good checks to it.
defensive gets 2hkoed by ice punch after rocks and offensive doesn't even outspeed and is a free spike for ferrothorn
252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Mow: 138-164 (45.5 - 54.1%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Swampert is most likely going to be the rocker on rain teams and thus, ur most likely not switching into Stealth Rock. Also, almost every check to Swampert is a switch in for Ferrothorn, but, ladder is trash so instead they'll just sack Swampert, probably. (good to rely on)
I was just joking about Rotom-C and LL's post is actually useful.
In a one-on-one setting that's true, but switching in after Chansey means it'll just get its Wish/Heal Bell/Softboiled off on a less offensive-oriented Pokemon and switch out. Gengar has difficulty breaking a Toxapex/Tangrowth core if they spam-switch due to extreme difficulty in getting rocks up against Mega-Sableye. You have to outplay your opponent many times over for him to give you some kind of consistent 1v1 vs. Chansey once he knows you have Taunt, and if the Chansey has Thunder Wave it's dangerous to even switch in.
On a related note (new question), I feel as though every defensively-oriented team I build MUST run Jirachi to not get torn to pieces by Tapu Lele, MUST run Zapdos to not get swept by Mega-Pinsir/Hawlucha/Kartana, and MUST run Toxapex (or similar superbulkster) to not get swept by Specs Greninja/Volcarona. Am I wrong?
If so, what can I be using instead?
On a related note (new question), I feel as though every defensively-oriented team I build MUST run Jirachi to not get torn to pieces by Tapu Lele, MUST run Zapdos to not get swept by Mega-Pinsir/Hawlucha/Kartana, and MUST run Toxapex (or similar superbulkster) to not get swept by Specs Greninja/Volcarona. Am I wrong?
If so, what can I be using instead?
Celesteela walls Lele, Unaware Clefable walls MPinsir/Hawucha/Kartana (without Smart Strike, which is usually foregone for Knock Off). Theres a reason Toxapex is S rank, but Chansey works for a blanket Special Attackers check. Just a few examples.
Just look at the checks and counters section of the smogon page, you're trying to... check and counter...
for Lele there are also Heatran, Magearna, Magnezone, Celesteela etc. There is also Mantine for Volc+Gren and for Gren in general there is like Gastrodon, Tangrowth, Amoongus, Mega-Venu etc. Skarm/Steela can also check Kartana especcially combined with Mega Venu or Amoonguus.
It's less the Pokemon involved than that I need 3 to do it. I understand different Pokemon can fulfill the same roles.
But I disagree that any Pokemon other than Jirachi, Chansey, and Bronzong can "wall" Tapu Lele. At best you take 40% + SR with most of her so-called checks, she switches out, and the next time she comes in the wall gets 2HKO'd on the switch. Celesteela can grab some healing with Leech Seed on the way out, but it's not as reliable as instant recovery/4x resist.
But I disagree that any Pokemon other than Jirachi, Chansey, and Bronzong can "wall" Tapu Lele. At best you take 40% + SR with most of her so-called checks, she switches out, and the next time she comes in the wall gets 2HKO'd on the switch. Celesteela can grab some healing with Leech Seed on the way out, but it's not as reliable as instant recovery/4x resist.
Chansey doesnt wall, its cleanly 2hkod
Quick Question: Currently which mega is the best on stall?
Mega Sableye, but Mega Venusaur is usable, in very rare circumstances, however.
Mega Sableye, Mega Scizor, Mega Alt, Mega Venu (dont use him) in order of viability on stall. Everything else sucks.
Celesteela absolutely hard walls Lele and gets a clean OHKO with Heavy Slam, Celesteela actually walls far better than Chansey seeing as a lot of people run Lele with Psyshock. Celesteela also deals with Choice locked Kartana and Mega Pinsir
Its pretty well known Lele is a bane to defensive teams so one of these mons is pretty much necessary, the best way of dealing with Lele for me its out speeding it with a revenge killer.
252 SpA Tapu Lele All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 181-214 (45.4 - 53.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Remembering you have leech seed and protect to heal after if someone actually wants to Fightinium Z you)
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 330-390 (117.4 - 138.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 330-390 (117.4 - 138.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Does Blacephalon simply not have room on any of its sets for Psyshock?
It's more a matter of who are you clicking psyshock against that you can't already deal with using shadow ball and flamethrower/mindblown/fire move
Spd Pex, primarily.
The problem with running this for Pex is:
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Toxapex: 135-160 (44.4 - 52.6%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO
Not even an OHKO and only slightly better than Shadow Ball.
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Blacephalon: 126-150 (51 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Remembering you're now locked into Psyshock and Pex can just regenerator out. Its probably not worth foregoing something like Trick for shutting down Chansey etc, or HP [Ice] for hitting Lando and Zygarde.
Even if you use Psychium Z for just Pex and to avoid getting locked:
252 SpA Blacephalon Shattered Psyche (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Toxapex: 240-284 (78.9 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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Kakimori said:
Celesteela, AV Magearna, Jirachi, spdef mew, spdef heatran (if they're not focus blast) and AV Bulu (sort of) can take on lele. Also you can run weavile to revenge trap and tyranitar if they're locked into a psychic move. Also on offense, lele isn't hard to revenge kill at all and basically any faster physical attacker can revenger. Also there are plenty of special attackers that can revenge lele like blace, gengar, scarf heatran and scarf magnezone but be wary lele can eat their hits especially after a calm mind.
For these three zapdos or unaware clef is going to be your best bet defensively but they can all be revenged by koko (which dies to +2 hjk after 2 rock switch ins tho). You can run smthn like venusaur/amoonguss for kartana and take on hawlucha/pinsir with another bird check like celesteela, skarmory or unaware quag. (but hawlucha beats steela 1v1 so) Kartana can get trapped by scarf zone and pinsir gets revenge killed. These 2 also get revenge killed by scarf heatran.
First of all toxapex loses to volcarona since they're all z psychic anyway. Volc is pretty hard to wall outside of SpDef tran (unless they're hp ground) and ttar/lati (unless they're bug buzz.) Mantine and Tapu Fini hard wall volc tho. However, volc is super easy to revenge kill with lucha/pinsir or any 100+ base speed scarf pokemon that has a move to hit it. There are also some pokemon like that can eat a +1 hit from full and kill back.
Greninja can be taken on by most bulky waters and bulky grasses.
Good Bulky grasses include:
-ferrothorn can set hazards, knock things off, leech seed and thunder wave.
-(spdef) amoonguss can spore
-AV tangrowth has good coverage and utility
-AV Bulu is pretty strong and can do some wallbreaking
-Mega venusaur is bad
These bulky grasses are all a safe bet vs. ash greninja and are also good at taking on electric types
Good bulky waters to check ash greninja include:
-Toxapex can set Toxic Spikes, scald, remove toxic spikes, haze, knock off and never dies because of regenerator+recover
-Mantine can defog, scald and haze and is immune to spikes/tspikes
-Fini can defog and stallbreak
-(spdef) rotom can defog, spread will-o-wisp and thunder wave and bring momentum
-suicune can set up with CM and PP stall and has utility in scald
-alomomola can knock off, scald, toxic and wishpass
-gastrodon can take on koko, spread scald burns and toxics or set up with curse
-PerishTrap Azu can wall it (and a ton of other stuff) while also trapping things, stallbreaking and providing scald and knock off utility.
However, toxapex is generally the best bulky water but the others definitely have their niches.
Good Bulky grasses include:
-ferrothorn can set hazards, knock things off, leech seed and thunder wave.
-(spdef) amoonguss can spore
-AV tangrowth has good coverage and utility
-AV Bulu is pretty strong and can do some wallbreaking
-Mega venusaur is bad
These bulky grasses are all a safe bet vs. ash greninja and are also good at taking on electric types
Good bulky waters to check ash greninja include:
-Toxapex can set Toxic Spikes, scald, remove toxic spikes, haze, knock off and never dies because of regenerator+recover
-Mantine can defog, scald and haze and is immune to spikes/tspikes
-Fini can defog and stallbreak
-(spdef) rotom can defog, spread will-o-wisp and thunder wave and bring momentum
-suicune can set up with CM and PP stall and has utility in scald
-alomomola can knock off, scald, toxic and wishpass
-gastrodon can take on koko, spread scald burns and toxics or set up with curse
-PerishTrap Azu can wall it (and a ton of other stuff) while also trapping things, stallbreaking and providing scald and knock off utility.
However, toxapex is generally the best bulky water but the others definitely have their niches.
yeah, specs psyshock is pretty good and 2hkoes toxapex but they'll just regenerate it off and go into something else.Scuba Diver said:
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 204-240 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
this is still a very small chance and you're not keeping these hazards up anyway. they can just regenerate it off and go into something else (or go hard ttar/weavile to trap you) For specs/scarf, always run Fire Blast or flamethrower/Shadow Ball/Trick/filler. However, the filler should always be HP ground/Psyshock on specs. HP ground can 2hko bandtar and nearly ohko spdef tran. HP grass also 2hkoes on bandtar but gastrodon isn't common enough to justify it over HP ground. Toxapex is a bad blacephalon check anyway since you have to spam recover while they can spam shadow ball hoping for a spdef drop. On scarf run smack down or explosion as the filler if you need it to check volcarona. Hp Ice is good on scarf as well since nearly ohkoes defensive lando and zygarde. HP ice useless on specs since shadow ball 2hkoes zygarde and lando dies to specs fire blast anyway. Dual Fire Stab and knock off are bad options as your filler move. Also don't give up trick on scarf/specs so you're not completely deadweight against stall.
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Hidden Power Ground vs. 84 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 146-174 (40.3 - 48%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 312-368 (81 - 95.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 123-145 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 123-145 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gastrodon: 199-235 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 178-211 (41.7 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 360-424 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 312-368 (81 - 95.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 123-145 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 123-145 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gastrodon: 199-235 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 178-211 (41.7 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 360-424 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Sableye is the best mega for stall and will probably be for a long time. Sableye checks medicham and zon z heatran and has the invaluable ability magic bounce. Magic bounce bounces status/hazards/taunts which are the best ways of wearing down stall and if you can't keep hazards up you're basically not breaking stall. Not to mention, since it's a mega it can absorb tricks and knock offs to keep chansey's eviolite intact. Sableye also has the great ghost typing so it can avoid being trapped and the dark typing to wall mono-stored power pokemon.Lugia Proto said:
Don't use Venusaur on stall just use amoonguss or physdef tangrowth to check kartana/koko. Scizor is super fat and has that nice steel typing but shouldn't be relied on as a lele/sd landorus/dd zygarde check. It also still gets blown away by +2 z fightium from kartana. However, with these megas, you're basically forced to run mew/cress/reuni to not get 6-0ed by medicham. I guess Slowbro can work as a water resist/medicham check and can check a lot of physical attackers because of how fat it is. Mega Alt/defensive Zard X can work if you wanna lose. You don't even need a mega on stall as long as you can keep hazards off and check all the mons you need to check.
Just remember, with stall all that matters is that you got your chansey, your 2 defoggers, your 2 status absorbers, your 2 setup stoppers and your check to zygarde, lele, koko, bulu, landorus, heatran, mawile, blacephalon, mega gyarados, keldeo, tornadus t, medicham, zard x, pinsir, band ttar, hoopa, manaphy, kyurem-b, cm clefable/latias/reuniclus, kartana, perish trap azu and bisharp. Once you got all that squared away you're good to go. Let's be real tho your stall is going to be weak to at least 2 of the things I just mentioned no combination of 6 mons can wall everything. Just run dugtrio to trap a bunch of the threats I just mentioned and build around walling the rest oh wait no we banned dugtrio.
You're not beating T punch Medicham+Koko (unless you have shedinja, cresselia or buzzwole in which case you're just bad)
You're not beating grassium heatran+bulu. (all of heatrans usual checks are gonna get smashed by boosted z grass and can't kill back with eq)
You're not beating icium kyurem black+koko (avalugg doesn't even beat it and it's supposed to avalugg stall is trash)
You're not beating nasty plot hoopa unless you have a weavile/scarf ttar to trap.
You're not beating SubCM Blacephalon without a weavile/scarf ttar to trap.
You're going to get timer stalled, get haxed and get called unkind words when running stall trust me I know from experience.
You're not beating T punch Medicham+Koko (unless you have shedinja, cresselia or buzzwole in which case you're just bad)
You're not beating grassium heatran+bulu. (all of heatrans usual checks are gonna get smashed by boosted z grass and can't kill back with eq)
You're not beating icium kyurem black+koko (avalugg doesn't even beat it and it's supposed to avalugg stall is trash)
You're not beating nasty plot hoopa unless you have a weavile/scarf ttar to trap.
You're not beating SubCM Blacephalon without a weavile/scarf ttar to trap.
You're going to get timer stalled, get haxed and get called unkind words when running stall trust me I know from experience.
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How do we feel about LO Kartana's moveset? I've been forgoing steel type coverage because Grass/Fighting/Dark seems pretty solid but is there some useful tech I'm forgetting? Is 4 Attacks viable?
Would a suspect test for Darkrai and/or Necrozma-DW be completely out of the question? Darkrai would be similar to Naganadel, just with a way worse defensive typing and a STAB that's not nearly as spammable in a meta infested with Tapus. Necrozma-DW would be a massive wallbreaker but suffer from having the literally worst defensive typing in the tier and an awful speed tier. I think they might both possibly work in OU.
To put it simply, no. That's not gonna happen based on the way mods have acted about the subject previously. Unfort that darkrai, dawn Wings, pheromosa, naganadel, lucario, salamence, metagross, khangaskhan, blaziken, marshadow, lando i, aegislash, deoxys s, deoxys d, mega gengar and skymin will never see the light of day in ou.
lucario, marshadow, deoxys s, naganadel, salamence and mega gengar are all busted in ubers too
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As far as I'm aware Life Orb is outclassed by the Z move because with that nuke you can get the Beast Boost with puts you at 1.5x and a KO, Life Orb just doesn't really provide enough stopping power, however if you hate the idea of Scarf and already have a Z user and Kartana still fits then it's still pretty reasonable. In terms of moves Smart Strike is it's worse move in terms of coverage, if you need a Steel move on your team however you've got to sacrifice Defog or Swords Dance, both of which are amazing on Kartana
Life Orb is in fact viable as it allows Kartana to p much get the same KOs its zmove would with +2 Knock Off, which can be valuable considering the fact u still keep ur z slot. tho it cant OHKO Celesteela, which may be hard sometimes, but considering the fact that Magnezone should be used w life orb Kartana almost always makes up for this p well.
Reshiram, specs
Zekrom, dd
Dialga, insane utility and power
Groudon, verstatile and ways around all checks
the counter is x to all the mons u listed