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Skymin Discussion Thread
- Thread starter 1059860
- Start date
Yeah, but you have to remember that Hypnosis does nothing when it misses. When Seed Flare fails to get the Special Defense drop, it's still a STAB Base 120 power move off of Base 120 Special Attack.. Also, there are a lot more viable users of Sleep Talk (to counter Hypnosis) than of Clear Body (to counter a Special Defense drop).
Steadfast rapes Flichkiss and skymin
That's an excellent point, and I just wanted to quote it because it's just good lol. But just to clear up a misconception, I only wanted to make it clear that people act like the sp. def drop happens 100% of the time, which it most definitely does not. That's the number 1 flaw I'm finding with a lot of people's arguments for skymin's uberness. That being said, I do think seed flare with serene grace is just too overpowering.
No. When you see a lucario come out, you EP it. When you see a gallade, you air slash. Air slash isn't a 1HKO without a boost so gallade might get a +1 speed boost. But chances are you have a sharder or a bullet puncher (scizor, metagross) both of which will finish the Gallade provided it can take down shaymin after its boost.
Does gallade even outspeed it after +1 speed provided its neutral nature?
Why would you compare D/P Hypnosis with SkyMin? SkyMin doesn't exist outside of PLAT
I really feel the best use of Skymin is as a Choice Scarfer, for these reasons:
1: With a Modest Nature, it reaches 353 speed - outspeeding all positive base 110 pokemon, as well as max speed Deoxys-E.
2: It has access to a Base 120 STAB move, albeit one with bad coverage. However, it still can do a great deal of damage on the switch.
3: It has an excellent Special Attack score, allowing it to hit hard with a Modest nature.
4: It has a solid special movepool, including a STAB attack with a 57% flinch rate.
Because of its relative fragility and many weaknesses, it does not make an optimal sweeper - but as a hit and run scarfer, it can shine.
1: With a Modest Nature, it reaches 353 speed - outspeeding all positive base 110 pokemon, as well as max speed Deoxys-E.
2: It has access to a Base 120 STAB move, albeit one with bad coverage. However, it still can do a great deal of damage on the switch.
3: It has an excellent Special Attack score, allowing it to hit hard with a Modest nature.
4: It has a solid special movepool, including a STAB attack with a 57% flinch rate.
Because of its relative fragility and many weaknesses, it does not make an optimal sweeper - but as a hit and run scarfer, it can shine.
As if this weren't a problem with SubSeed Sceptile? The only difference is that Weavile outspeeds it.
SkyMin is good, but it is definately not Uber. I have been using it for a while and it can't really sweep on its own, especially with all the priority, the Stealth Rock weakness, and the need to chip at its HP with Life Orb to do any real damage without being locked in. It is a force to contend with, definately, but I think it is way overhyped.
The speed issue is minute, as most Weavile have Ice Shard anyways, meaning it would hit both of them first regardless of base speed.
Crobat isn't the best Shaymin-S counter. If I used Shaymin-S, I would spam Air Slash to see what they would send in. A Choice Specs Air Slash does 53-63% to Crobat, or 46-55% with a Life Orb tp Jolly Crobat with 252 HP / 24 SpD / 232 Speed. Crobat must Roost to be able to come in another time, but with Air Slash doing over 50%, it will gradually be losing health each turn. This forces Crobat to go on the offensive with Brave Bird, which is when you switch in (insert high HP, yet low defense pokemon) to make them kill themselves! Honestly tho, I don't like the idea of a "counter" not only being weak to Stealth Rock, but also having to rely on a recoil move, which is easily predicted, to actually threaten them.
I haven't played a lot lately, but from what little I've seen, skymin is not that threatening. It is nowhere close to the dominance of chomp.
On average I've lost less than one pokemon for each skymin encountered, and considering dragonite is the only thing on my current team that can reliably switch into it (and even that's risky business, as it might carry HP ice), that's not very frightening IMO.
The thing looks very scary on paper, but with subseed, it is walled all the way to Reykjavik and back by very common pokemon, and without it, it's going to die itself before dealing significant damage.
Personally, I'm more worried about switching into a Glaceon's Ice Beam, than Skymin's Seed Flare
On average I've lost less than one pokemon for each skymin encountered, and considering dragonite is the only thing on my current team that can reliably switch into it (and even that's risky business, as it might carry HP ice), that's not very frightening IMO.
The thing looks very scary on paper, but with subseed, it is walled all the way to Reykjavik and back by very common pokemon, and without it, it's going to die itself before dealing significant damage.
Personally, I'm more worried about switching into a Glaceon's Ice Beam, than Skymin's Seed Flare
Honestly I don't give "it's not like garchomp" comments any credit at all and I hope nobody else here does either. Shaymin-S and Garchomp are entirely different pokemon that function quite differently, there's no use in comparing them directly. Really, stop trying to compare the two.
You can measure their threat levels though.
I do disagree with the "quite differently" comment however. I think you can fairly generalize them as relatively bulky Pokemon (341 HP 176 def and 358 226/206 are decent enough) that are offensively capable.
I would say it is not like Garchomp at all in terms of perceived threat.
I do disagree with the "quite differently" comment however. I think you can fairly generalize them as relatively bulky Pokemon (341 HP 176 def and 358 226/206 are decent enough) that are offensively capable.
I would say it is not like Garchomp at all in terms of perceived threat.
Ok, so they both fall under the same "category" as you put it. That still doesn't change the fact that they're both played very differently both offensivly and defensivly, making comparisons in terms of threat almost impossible which is what I was saying anyways.
The way I see it is a very simple comparison of "power vs technique". Garchomp is the powerhouse, while Skymin relys on a myriad of options such as Leech Seed, Air Slash, Seed Flare, Substitute, even Growth to beat the opponent.
Weavile is probably the most notable counter for skymin. Heatran is already one of the most popular pokemon and now its gonna be on every team like chomp was before ubers...I just hope Skymin should go uber right away so people can start making the metagame better by thinking of their own threats rather than just using common pokemon which are counters. Weaviles Ice Shard will kill it, Scizor Quick attack after SD will kill it, LAPRAS can kill it. Not only tran will increase if you think about it. I just hope Skymin is uber by the time English Plat comes out.
Sorry If i sounded stupid-.-
Sorry If i sounded stupid-.-
Skymin's Choice Specs Seed Flare does 215-253 (234.33 average) damge to 307 SpcDef (standard - Bold and no SpcDef Evs) Blissey. If Seed Flare's effect works, she now takes 429-505 (467.39 average) damage. This means if she swaps into this attack, receives Seed Flare's effect (which, counting accuracy, has a 68% chance of occuring - its likely), and then stays to be hit by Seed Flare again, she takes 644-758 (701.72 average) damage. If SR is in play, this means that the standard Blissey (714 Hlth, 307 SpcDef), is very likely to be 2HKOed by Timid Choice Specs Seed Flare.
Blisseys will have to start investing in SpcDef if they want to be a true Skymin counter. Furthermore, Blisseys, with no SpcAtt EVss (and bold) can't OHKO Skymin with Ice Beam unless SR is in play.
If Skymin is a subseeder, and has 252 Hlth, Blissey's 252 SpcAtt EVs (and Bold) still has less than 50% chance of OHKOing Skymin (it does 370-435 (402.88 average) damage). This means that Skymin can set up leech seed on Blissey and stall to death with Substitute. If she swaps out, Skymin gets a free hit on the next pokemon.
So, in short, Blissey, the most famous SpcWall and arguably the best, is not a reliable Skymin counter. And even in other scenarios, Skymin can also launch a Air Slash with a 57% chance (counting accuracy) of flinching Blissey.
Skymin alone has massively increased Registeel, Regice and Timid Scarftran numbers, as well as more SpcDef focus in Metagross and Skarmory and promoting Mamoswine numbers. She is severly affecting the metagame, and has very few actual counters. Garchomp was banned for these two reasons (due to his Yache Berry, though Skymin doesnt even need the berry due to the chance factors of Seed Flare and Air Slash making many other pokemon unreliable counters); Skymin should be next, other we will have a heavily chance-based metagame.
Blisseys will have to start investing in SpcDef if they want to be a true Skymin counter. Furthermore, Blisseys, with no SpcAtt EVss (and bold) can't OHKO Skymin with Ice Beam unless SR is in play.
If Skymin is a subseeder, and has 252 Hlth, Blissey's 252 SpcAtt EVs (and Bold) still has less than 50% chance of OHKOing Skymin (it does 370-435 (402.88 average) damage). This means that Skymin can set up leech seed on Blissey and stall to death with Substitute. If she swaps out, Skymin gets a free hit on the next pokemon.
So, in short, Blissey, the most famous SpcWall and arguably the best, is not a reliable Skymin counter. And even in other scenarios, Skymin can also launch a Air Slash with a 57% chance (counting accuracy) of flinching Blissey.
Skymin alone has massively increased Registeel, Regice and Timid Scarftran numbers, as well as more SpcDef focus in Metagross and Skarmory and promoting Mamoswine numbers. She is severly affecting the metagame, and has very few actual counters. Garchomp was banned for these two reasons (due to his Yache Berry, though Skymin doesnt even need the berry due to the chance factors of Seed Flare and Air Slash making many other pokemon unreliable counters); Skymin should be next, other we will have a heavily chance-based metagame.
Apparently you missed what he said. Blissey hasn't been running 252 HP / 252 Def with a Bold nature for quite some time. Blissey with SpDef is now very common, since you need it to take hits from pokemon like....Skymin. Now, I still wouldn't use Blissey as my definite Skymin counter, because of Seed Flare + Air Slash luck. That's why I wouldn't use Blissey as an example if you're trying to show Skymin is overpowered. Yes, Blissey is the best pokemon at taking neutral hits. What Blissey is missing is resistances, and this is why pokemon like Heatran are suddenly top tier. They stop Skymin by resisting attacks, meaning even with the SpDef drop Skymin still can't beat them.
Actually, I disagree. In my experience, the Skymins that work are the Skymins that rely on brute force, sporting HP Ice and Earth Power to deal with likely switch-ins like Heatran and Dragonite.
Subseed may look good on paper, but it simply doesn't work that well. Skymin isn't much more resilitient than Sceptile nor is it significantly faster... and, well, how many Sceptiles do you see? And how many of them are subseeders? I'm fairly confident the answer to both will be 'few'.
And before you mention Seed Flare, Air Slash or Skymin's greater SpAtk, ask yourself, when is the subseeder going to get it's chance to attack? It's defences aren't terribly impressive nor is grass/flying typing, meaning most things facing it will take down that sub in one hit.
Come in on something you immediately threaten, Sub on a predicted switch, Leech Seed as they break the Sub then, provided you're faster, keep Subbing as they constantly lose health while they break the Sub. Eventually they will lose so much health that they'll need to take a turn to recover, at which point they give Skymin a free Sub and one turn of healing. Skymin can then Air Slash them for flinch-hax (or Seed Flare / Earth Power if that is the better option). It is not completely out of the question that Skymin would end up killing the opponent with a Sub intact as well as the majority of its health left.