SleepTrapping in SM Ubers: A Proposal

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Omfuga

Banned deucer.
#26
"Brings another dimension to teambuilding and makes games more intense" is not a role or purpose. Say something specific about why gengar actually should have a clause modified for it only instead of being banned
 

Hack

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus
Ubers Co-Leader
#27
Anything Goes exists. It is supposed to be metagame without clauses and bans. Ubers was declared a tier so shouldn't it be treated as such?
Yes, but not in the same way as OU, because what would be the purpose of Ubers then?

Here are some guidelines towards banning in Ubers:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-is-added-m-ray-is-banned-from-ubers.3523205/

"Brings another dimension to teambuilding and makes games more intense" is not a role or purpose. Say something specific about why gengar actually should have a clause modified for it only instead of being banned
Do you really think that's a realistic possibility? It's about extending an existing, in-place clause because there is a clear loophole taken advantage of here and that makes the tier less enjoyable.
 
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#28
It was suspected in XY and that was long ago. Also I can assure you that every single Ubers player in the community is fond of Mega Gengar like you just said and knows how important this pokemon is for the metagame. It brings another dimension to teambuilding and makes games more intense with the double switches it actually causes. It is a big part of ubers and many competitive and high level teams have been built with it. That's why banning Mega Gengar completely is out of question.
I also think that the Destiny Bond and Will O Wisp nerfs will compensate for the extra moveslot it got this gen and it will be just fine like it forever was.
Can't you say that about every Pokemon that has been banned from every tier ever?
 

Hack

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus
Ubers Co-Leader
#29
Can't you say that about every Pokemon that has been banned from every tier ever?
Stop derailing this discussion. Maybe Outrage isn't making the best argument here but what does it really give you to throw out pointless one-liners? Fwiw there have been exactly 0 Pokémon bans from Ubers, we only banned the mega attribute of Rayquaza. Although we're strictly speaking Mega Gengar here and not the entirety of the Pokémon, it's out of question to ban because it isn't a realistic option.

Although I appreciate the involvement and concern from players outside the tier's community, what needs to be said is that this is, by all means and purposes, a decision the vast majority of the community agrees with. There is precedence for this sort of thing as well. Can I hear an argument against the actual content of the opening post instead of these trivialities?
 
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#30
Hello, I am here to talk about a strategy that was banned (in one form, at least) way back when in GSC, and it is threatening to make SM Ubers unplayable competitively: SleepTrapping.

While SleepTrap never seemed to be a bother in Gens 3-5, it started creeping back up towards the end of Gen 6 and it came back with a vengeance at the start of Gen 7. Hypnosis Mega Gengar is becoming a hot topic among both community and moderators alike as a large issue to metagame growth, and with major tournaments such as SPL just around the corner, we felt it prudent to take action. Shadow Tag eliminates the foe's chance to switch out, and assuming the opponent attempts to send in a "check" to scare off Mega Gengar, the Mega Gengar user has ~84% chance to hit one of two Hypnosis. With STAB 130 BP Hex off base 170 SpA, all Mega Gengar has to do is hope the foe does not get a first-turn wake (66.6% chance) and they are usually dead. Even if the Mega Gengar only has an opportunity to use Hypnosis once, they still have roughly a 40% chance (.6 chance of hitting Hypnosis * .666 chance of not getting a first turn wake) of just ending whatever comes in with two Sleep-boosted shots of Hex.

What this means is that Hypnosis is effectively a legal OHKO move when used by Mega Gengar.

We do not believe such a ban would be unreasonable for Ubers to implement because of these reasons:

1) There is some precedent for banning SleepTrap in GSC.
Granted, the specific ban is for SleepPerishTrap, and we are proposing a more general ban on SleepTrap. However, Perish Song isn't necessary to KO trapped targets in a timely fashion anymore, and the GSC ban did not factor in trapping abilities which defeats the main counterplay to SleepTrap in the old days (sending in a Sleep Talker).

2) The proposed ban is simply an extension of Sleep Clause. SleepTrap can be viewed as a loophole in our existing Sleep Clause: this proposal would serve to close that loophole.
Ok I'll give it my best shot. So what it exactly boils down to is if Mega Gengar gets off a Hypnosis, the other player can most likely do nothing to stop a KO. As far as I know there are only four Pokemon in Ubers that can outspeed Mega Gengar and all just happen to be weak to its STAB.

What are some criteria for banning things from Ubers? We don't quite know yet, but here are some warning signs:
  • This Pokemon/ability/etc unreasonably raises the volatility of Ubers. Think Moody or OHKO spam.
  • This Pokemon is ~unreasonably~ centralizing. Think 70%+ usage. Even Xerneas was (I think) ~45% usage.
  • Related to the above point: This Pokemon is obviously in a different power bracket than most of the other Ubers. I argued earlier that M-Ray was in a different power bracket because it is the first ~800 BST Pokemon with a useful ability and unrestricted item.
  • It is no fun to play or watch matches with this Pokemon/ability/etc (henceforth just Pokemon) allowed. Having this Pokemon in Ubers makes me want to play some other meta. I would be bored as fuck to watch a match with this Pokemon allowed. This is a subjective criterion, but an important one I think: if everyone hates Ubers, then why have it? It is our obligation in such a case to try to fix it.
The way I see it, if Mega Gengar is as bad as is being claimed with regard to Hypnosis and Shadow Tag and being an almost unstoppable OHKO'er, thats unreasonably raising the volatility of Ubers. I'm sure with the claimed greatness of this strategy that Mega Gengar would see a huge rise in use in Ubers and would be almost necessary to run on a team. I don't know about you all, but if all of this is the case, I wouldn't have fun watching every team desperately trying to stop Mega Gengar from KOing anything it Hypnotises.

The other proposed bans in the thread, "no Hypnosis + Shadow Tag" or "no Hypnosis + Gengarite" are literally a new clause just based on the use of this one Pokemon and are banning a move or ability that is not broken on any other. It would be much simpler and make much more sense just to ban Mega Gengar, rather than creating a whole new clause or complex ban.
 
#31
The nature of ubers as a tier is supposed to provide as many Pokemon and strategies as possible, as has been stated previously. That being said it is an official tier and follows the tiering philosophy, though perhaps on a different level than other tiers. It might be simpler to just ban Gengar except in this case the mon itself isn't uncompetitive, but is when used in conjunction with Hypnosis. There are mons like support Arceus, PDon, Ho-Oh and Yveltal, that otherwise easily beat Gengar 1v1, but with Hypnosis Gengar can just put them to sleep, and with a decent sleep roll take them out, and potentially get more KOs from there.
 

Hack

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus
Ubers Co-Leader
#32
Ok I'll give it my best shot. So what it exactly boils down to is if Mega Gengar gets off a Hypnosis, the other player can most likely do nothing to stop a KO. As far as I know there are only four Pokemon in Ubers that can outspeed Mega Gengar and all just happen to be weak to its STAB.

The way I see it, if Mega Gengar is as bad as is being claimed with regard to Hypnosis and Shadow Tag and being an almost unstoppable OHKO'er, thats unreasonably raising the volatility of Ubers. I'm sure with the claimed greatness of this strategy that Mega Gengar would see a huge rise in use in Ubers and would be almost necessary to run on a team. I don't know about you all, but if all of this is the case, I wouldn't have fun watching every team desperately trying to stop Mega Gengar from KOing anything it Hypnotises.

The other proposed bans in the thread, "no Hypnosis + Shadow Tag" or "no Hypnosis + Gengarite" are literally a new clause just based on the use of this one Pokemon and are banning a move or ability that is not broken on any other. It would be much simpler and make much more sense just to ban Mega Gengar, rather than creating a whole new clause or complex ban.
It's never that simple to ban a Pokémon form from Ubers. There is a lot of PR factors involved in such a thing and it's almost impossible to quantify when a Pokémon should get the boot in the tier. In the case of Mega Rayquaza it was easier to provide evidence to how it operated in an entirely different power bracket than the rest of the tier. Gengar does indeed fall in fairly on some of the criteria stated. This solution is proposed because:

- there is precedence
- it fulfills the wishes of the playerbase
- it's merely a small extension (fix) to an existing clause

I do acknowledge sounding like a broken record at this point but it is really what it boils down to. It was a proposal done by us as community leaders, for the community, and in respect to existing cases and the complications of true Pokémon bans in the tier. This proposal boils down to the philosophy of sleep clause, not the actual Pokémon.
 
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Fireburn

BARN ALL
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Ubers Co-Leader
#33
I think people are misunderstanding what we are trying to accomplish here. We're essentially trying to fix a loophole in Sleep Clause. That's it. While Mega Gengar is the primary (and first) modern offender, the concept of SleepTrap itself violates the philosophy of Sleep Clause which I believe is well-outlined in the OP. Why make a new ban when all you have to do is fix an existing one? Given that Ubers tries to preserve a minimal number of bans, it is logical to make this proposal. We are fixing something we have already prohibited, not introducing something new.

Don't lose sight of the forest for the trees.
 

Lemonade

instrastring
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#34
tangentially related, but it could be cool for TLs or whoever to get together and write a bit about the intention of each Smogon-wide clause along with the "implementation" already listed. It's easier to follow "We have sleep clause because _ (and this is how we implement it). Sleeptrap goes against this principle, so we need to modify the implementation of the clause" than just the statement of the rule. And new players probably are going to have a hard time finding older discussions (or simply not want to read them), so making the ideas "official" could be useful.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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#35
Would there be any tier other than doubles (which follows a different sleep clause anyway) that couldn't just adopt this as a sitewide rule? Pretty sure mgar is the only trapper that can sleep. Don't extend it to mean look etc. just tag and trap.
 

Fireburn

BARN ALL
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Ubers Co-Leader
#36
Seeing as how we have both overwhelming support from the playerbase as well as clearance from Senior Staff to proceed, we have decided to go through with the ban. Henceforth, Shadow Tag + Sleep-Inducing Move is banned from SM Ubers as an extension of Sleep Clause, effective immediately.

Thank you to everyone who participated in this thread. I am glad we were able to get this taken care of before SPL.

Zarel
 
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