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Slow River of Sand - Sandstorm + Trick Room

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by blackwolf1401, Jan 16, 2013.

  1. blackwolf1401

    blackwolf1401

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2013
    Messages:
    5

    EDIT: Thank you everyone for your suggestions, every help is important, and make this team better.

    TEAM BULDING PROCESS
    Team Building Process (open)



    Former members (open)



    CURRENT TEAM
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    DETAILS

    [​IMG]

    Juggernaut
    Hippowdon (F) @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 200 SpDef / 56 Atk
    Sassy Nature (+SpDef -Spd)
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Fang
    - Crunch
    - Protect

    This Hippowdon allows me to set the sand and cover Tyranitars' weaknesses. With Earthquake as its main STAB spread move, Hippowdon can hit hard without sacrifying defenses. Ice Fang for flyings, dragons and almost everything that resists or is immune to EQ. Crunch, for those annoying psychics or ghosts, and Protect for scouting. I was thinking in Passho Berry to resist water type moves, but in that case, good is Gastrondon's Storm Drain to handle them. Leftovers may be useful, but Sitrus Berry's quick health regain is a better way to survive. The EVs spread allows the Hippo to endure almost every Scald in OU and a lot of Surfs.

    [​IMG]

    Namor
    Gastrodon (F) @ Rindo Berry
    Trait: Storm Drain
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Ice Beam
    - Stockpile/Earth Power
    - Recover


    This guy is crucial against Rain teams and/or any water type Pokémon. Is the perfect counter to Rotom-W, making it useless. Bold nature making it a little more bulky, for spaming Recover. Scald for STAB and Ice Beam for type covering. Rindo Berry in case of grass types.
    I finally chose Recover as my stall move and I'm trying Stockpile instead of Earth Power. This is because I already have two strong Earthquake users, so another is not that necesary. This Stockpile + Recover combo is more effective (and annoyer) than Protect and helps Gastro to live longer. Gastrodon's role has became essential since the addition of Aggron, Chandelure and Hippowdon, thinking in the huge amount of rain teams out there in the VGC metagame.
    Well, Aggron is not included anymore, but Marowak also suffers with rain.

    [​IMG]

    QuickSilver
    Hitmontop (M) @ Fighting Gem
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Fake Out
    - Close Combat
    - Sucker Punch
    - Wide Guard


    Standard offensive support Hitmontop. This guy used to help Tyranitar against opposing fighting types, but nowadays helps Marowak with its Intimidate.
    Fake Out for Trick Room setting along with Musharna, Sucker Punch for those annoying Psychic and Ghost types, Close Combat + Fighting Gem for a massive damaging STAB hit, OHKOing the most Tyranitar, Terrakion, Hydreigon and many other typical threats in VGC. Wide Guard in case your prediction skills are awesome, Detect for scouting.
    Since I'm playing this Hitmontop for a long time, I finally chose Wide Guard.

    [​IMG]

    Havok
    Bronzong (F) @ Mental Herb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 188 SpDef
    Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
    - Trick Room
    - Gyro Ball
    - Imprison / Zen Headbutt / Light Screen
    - Protect


    Being a defensive Pokémon and having Steel as one of your types is a huge advantage and Bronzong knows how to use it well. Brave nature to give its attack a little boost, but its EV spread is more defensive, focusing mainly in its spDef thinking in just two things: Chandelure and Heatran. Setting Trick Room is its main function so Mental Herb is needed here. This guy is taunted and it's dead weight. STAB Gyro Ball as its main offensive move, and Protect as a staple move in VGC. The third slot is making me doubt. Imprison helps me to nullify a lot of stallers or anti-Trick Room on the opposing side. It also prevents the foe from using Protect, leaving them literally unprotected. Zen Headbutt may become my second STAB offensive move, giving Bronzong another way to be important in the team, as an offensive threat. This also implies the rearrange of its EV spread to a more offensive one and Light Screen gives my team a very useful SpDef boost, apreciated by Chandelure and himself.

    [​IMG]

    Marrow
    Marowak(F) @ Thick Club
    Trait: Lightningrod / Rock Head
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Bonemerang / Double Edge
    - Detect


    Whitout Tick Club, there would be no reason to use Marowak at all. But its decent bulk, its monstrous attack stat (reaching 289 under VGC rules) and typing make this Pokémon at least an interesting alternative. Being just Ground type eliminates a lot of weaknesses and with that enormous attack a STAB Rock Slide would be greedy. Earthquake as its main STAB offensive and spread move, inflicting massive damage to both rivals (nor flying, nor levitating), Rock Slide for Flying and Ice covering and Detect over Protect because Imprison. But, same as Bronzong, this girl is being tested, so the third move (and its appropiate ability) is causing me trouble.
    When I need to hit hard and with STAB without hurting my partner, Bonemerang is the best way to do it. If so, Lightningrod should be the ability, protecting my three non-ground Pokémon from being hit by a single-target electric move. But, if I want more type coverage, abusing its huge attack, Double-Edge is a very good alternative, making Marowak absolutely depending to Rock Head for avoiding recoil damage.

    [​IMG]

    FlameOn!
    Chandelure (F) @ Fire Gem
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpAtk / 4 SpDef
    Quiet Nature (+SpAtk, -Spd)
    - Trick Room
    - Heat Wave
    - Shadow Ball/Energy Ball
    - Protect


    The chandelier is one of my favourite Pokémon (with Aggron -not anymore- and Gastrodon) in the team. The tremendous power of Fire Gem + Heat Wave can bring down almost everything that don't resists it or at least inflict a lot of damage. I thought in Focus Sash instead of Fire Gem, but under Hippowdon's sand, Chandelure's typing (not Rock, Ground or Steel) would make the sash absolutely useless. Those 252 EVs in HP allows Chandelure to resist many Rock Slides, Scalds and/or Earthquakes and set Trick Room. Thanks to its typing and ability, it's immune to Fake Out and other Heat Waves. Maybe I could sacrifice some EVs on the SpAtk to improve its SpDef or its Def, but I would really miss those points.
    I'm still not sure about Shadow Ball or Energy Ball. I know that Shadow Ball gains STAB, but sometimes a grass type move may be very helpfull. At the moment, I stay with Shadow Ball, just for the STAB.

    Team usage / Sinergy

    To lead, Hitmontop is a must in my team. You can use it with Chandelure, Bronzong and Hippowdon. Chandelure and Bronzong are obvious thinking in its Trick Room. Allows Hippowdon to set the sand and to scout without any worries. Also, Hitmontop may help in defensive ways with its Wide Guard and Sucker Punch, keeping the team safe of spread moves and eliminating dying foes. This may be useful when paired with Gastrodon since Gastro needs some covering to set its Stockpile without issues.

    Gastrondon is useful at anytime and almost against any trainer or strategy. I commonly use him along with Chandelure, absorbing and redirecting water type moves aimed to Chandelure to itself. This situation gives Chandelure the chance to eliminate water types using Energy Ball. So works viceversa; Chandelure sweeps those grass type Pokémon that try to kill Gastro, keeping it safe.

    Gastrodon is also useful along with Marowak or Hippowdon, for the same reason that is along with Chadelure, its awesome ability Storm Drain. Gastrodon's Scald is particularly useful when paired with Marowak because of the burns that it may cause. Those burns cuts foe's attack, helping Marowak against physical sweepers, increasing its bulk.



  2. fuel

    fuel

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2012
    Messages:
    32
    I like the idea of your team, I'm actually using a Rainy Trick Room team. I'm new to rating teams, but I'll give you some suggestions.

    On Tyranitar, since you have 252 HP, you could change Chople Berry for an Iron Ball, if you aren't too scared of it being KO'd. Having the Iron Ball will guarantee that Sandstorm gets up, and then you can use Fling (130 base) over Crunch, and it will activate opponent's berries so it could help you get weakness berries that the opponent has out of the way.

    I like your Gastrodon...but you might want to take a good chunk of Def EV's and put into Sp. Def EV's considering it only has 4, and one of Gastrodon's most feared moves is Energy Ball.

    Your Hitmontop looks great, unless you want to sacrifice the extra power of Close Combat for a White Herb since he doesn't appreciate that Def/Sp. Def drop.

    Musharna is interesting....doesn't seem that popular. You're probably gonna want to fit Light Screen in there if you aren't going to use Cresselia to help Musharna last longer.

    Why are you adding Speed EV's to Garchomp if this is a Trick Room team? I understand that you might use him if Trick Room fails, but he has 102 base speed for pete's sake. I hope you aren't going to use him under Trick Room is all I have to say..

    I love Eelektross. DisQuake seems to be a powerful combo. Btw there's a typo in "Hidden Power Ice."


    This might not be the best advice, I'm a big noob. These things aren't exactly mandatory, just suggestions. Good luck at Regionals!
  3. blackwolf1401

    blackwolf1401

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2013
    Messages:
    5
    First of all, thank you for your time.

    Let's talk about your suggestions:
    - Iron Ball would be a great idea for Tyratinar, but I need him to last the longer as possible. So making it faster and more susceptible to fighting moves after throwing the Iron Ball it's not a good idea for me.
    - For Gastrodon, I was actually thinking about moving some EVs to SpDef, since the only way that this boy got killed was through Energy Ball, so I'll definetly do what you say.
    - White Herb for Hitmontop was one of my possible choices, but I decided to use Fighting Gem due to the constant spamming of Close Combat after setting Trick Room. This means that I'll be constantly dropping my Def and SpDef for the sake of killing. If this guy has to die by a OHKO, then so be it, but after defeating at least 2 of the opponent threats easily, thanks to Fighting Gem.
    - I thought about Light Screen (Reflect isn't that useful for me since my Hitmontop's Intimidate), but I really can't see a spot for it. I already have some doubts about where to put Safeguard, but Light Screen is also very useful... I love this guy's Telepathy ability, this Musharna really likes Eel's Discharge or Chomp's EQ boosting them with Helping Hand and taking no damage at all, but I can't take out it's Psychic. Just taunting it, would turn it to a piece of trash. I like Light Screen, but I don't know where can it fit looking at that moveset.
    - You're absolutely right with Garchomp. His IVs and EVs spread has nothing to do in this Trick Room team, but this guy is amazing in the late game. So yes, I'm not going to use it under Trick Room. In fact, Garchomp may have to uses: As a Lead, with Eelektross when the opponent team is too predictable o as a Sweeper for the late game. This guy never disappoints you.
    - Eelektross has worked amazingly fine for me, DisQuake combo is one of my favourite and powerful combinations, but I've made a huge mistake: Discharge + Trick Room are not a good idea. Since Discharge great paralysis probability (30%), making slower Pokémon "faster" under Trick Room make this strategy a double edge weapon. Sometimes paralyzing a foe can take you to the absolute failure. This is why Eelektross probably is going to be replaced. Maybe I just change Discharge for Thunderbolt, but my great DisQuake combo would be dead.

    So, thanks again, you've been a huge help.
    Good luck at the regionals for you too!
  4. tlyee61

    tlyee61

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    377
    hey man, looks like a solid Sand / TR team.
    I would change Musharna to Cress because the only spread move that Musharna is immune to, Cress is too. You could go somewhat offensive, with a spread of 252 HP / 52 Def / 28 SpAtk / 176 SpDef (on cress, not musharna) to never be KOed by Max Attack Dark Gem TTar crunch or +1 bug buzz from volcarona. also, you 2HKO terrakion, virizion, top with Psyshock and 2HKO genies with Ice Beam.

    TTar: if you go with Iron Ball, I might recommend Fling over Low Kick. Since this is a TR Team, you'll get a 130 BP (not factoring in STAB or anything yet) move! Even if your Iron Ball is wasted, you can still rely on Crunch to do massive damage.

    Gastrodon: I would go with a more offensive spread of 252 HP / 20 Def / 100 SAtk / 136 SDef
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Scald / Muddy Water
    - Ice Beam
    - Earth Power
    - Protect / Recover
    (with Earth Gem)

    The most obvious part of this set is that it’s made to be able to OHKO 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross. That would be the reason behind the Special Attack boosting nature, the 100 Special Attack EVs, and Earth Gem. Of course, not all Metagross use this spread, so it’s important to be aware of the fact that it might survive. The defensives allow Gastrodon to survive both a Fighting Gem Close Combat from Adamant Hitmontop or a Dragon Gem Draco Meteor from Timid Latios (therefore handling any Dragon Gem Draco Meteor besides Modest Latios and Hydreigon in VGC 2012) with barely any HP left.

    more spreads here : http://nuggetbridge.com/articles/gastrodon-for-dummies/

    Top: looks good.

    Musharna: I already mentioned that above.

    Chomp: Looks pretty good, but I might change the moves and EVs around slightly. Go with Haban Berry and a spread of 108 HP / 44 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SDef / 100 Spd with Adamant nature. It allows it to survive Timid Latios' Dragon Gem Draco Meteor, a feat your previos spread didn't allow. (how will you OHKO is without surviving the hit xD) It also guarantees a kill against said Latios still.

    Eel; looks fine
  5. fuel

    fuel

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2012
    Messages:
    32
    Well, if you aren't going to use Eelektross anymore, I have a few suggestions. You can go with Thundurus-T, which has a monstrous Sp. Att stat (145 base) and a Speed stat (101 base), which would make it shoot off very powerful and quick T-bolts if you aren't using him under Trick Room. Sadly, I don't have a set for him..

    If you want a Pokemon to use under Trick Room, I have a couple of ideas.

    Reuniclus
    Ability: Magic Guard
    Nature: Modest
    EVs: 252 HP, 252 Special Attack,4 Special Defense
    Item: Life Orb
    -Psychic
    -Recover
    -Focus Blast
    -Trick Room

    He is a very powerful Special sweeper under Trick Room. He isn't affected by sandstorm thanks to Magic Guard. He has STAB Psychic, Focus Blast for coverage agaist Pokemon that resist Psychic, Recover to store health, and Trick Room in case you Musharna fails.

    Dusclops
    Ability: Pressure
    Nature: Relaxed
    Ev's: 252 HP, 252 Defense, 4 Special Defense
    Item: Eviolite
    -Will-O-Wisp
    -Pain Split
    -Trick Room
    -Fire Punch/Ice Punch/Thunder Punch

    You can use this bad boy as a wall. You can burn Pokemon, reestablish Trick Room, and Pain Split to remain in the battle for as long as possible. You can pick from any of the punches, but I would probably choose Thunder to hit those Flying-types and Water-types hard.

    Both choices can be versatile, but the ultimate choice is yours.
  6. tlyee61

    tlyee61

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    377
    Actually, I would go with Night Shade (or Seismic Toss) because Dusclops will be doing abysmal damage with any of the punches lol
  7. blackwolf1401

    blackwolf1401

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2013
    Messages:
    5
    I was really considering to include Reuniclus in my team, but I would change that spread to something more deffensive, just in case.
    Thank you very much! :D

    THANKS A LOT MAN, that Gastrodon information was REALLY USEFUL.
  8. Golden Piloswine

    Golden Piloswine

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Messages:
    432
    Let's see. The only thing I might comment on is adding a steel type to resist ice and dragon type moves. Although Draco Meteor has become less common. It could force you to alter your strategy, but a ton of steel types are slow though, but it's just a soft suggestion. OOoooo What if you use Aggron so the sandstorm improves it's special defense, but then you'd have 2 Pokemon with 4x fighting weakness. Or you could use Hippowdon over T-Tar. But like I said before it's changing your team.

    Show Hide

    [​IMG] (I would replace Garchomp!)
    Ability: Sturdy
    Item: Choice Band/Rock Gem
    Nature: Brave
    Ev's: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpDef

    Rock Slide
    Metal Burst/Iron Head
    Earthquake/Fire Punch
    Protect/Fire Punch

    [​IMG](I would replace T-tar!)
    Item: Sitrus Berry/Leftovers
    Nature: Brave
    Ev's: 252 HP/ 4 Def / 252 SpDef

    Crunch/Ice Fang/Thunder Fang
    Earthquake
    Revenge/Ice Fang
    Protect/Slack Off



    If you still are using Eelektross, I think you should go with Protect > Grass Knot. I mostly use grass moves because my team dislikes the gastro, but fight gem CC, should do very sizable damage to common Gastrodon.

    Also, since it still says you are undecided on Protect/Recover for Gastro. I find recover is much more annoying, especially with the defensive spread you have equipped.

    I might add I'm a fan of musharna because of discharge and earthquake. Was really useful in vgc for me.

    Hopefully you can use some of this! :)
  9. fuel

    fuel

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2012
    Messages:
    32
    I agree with Golden Piloswine, you should replace Tyranitar with Hippowdon. It would get rid of the Ground, Bug, Steel, and 4x Fightning weakness, while adding only an Ice weakness. Hippowdon is also much more of a Physical wall, but you should invest in Sp. Def like in Golden Piloswine's set. Hippowdon is also slower, so all you would be losing is your Dark STAB.
  10. Golden Piloswine

    Golden Piloswine

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Messages:
    432
    Another thing I might add. Garchomp is counter productive in TR. So Aggron would be a good replacement. Also you can opt for the elemental fangs in place of Crunch. But it's still nice to hit Psychic types.

    I've edited my original post to show some other options you can use with Hippowdown, basically what I said above.
  11. blackwolf1401

    blackwolf1401

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2013
    Messages:
    5
    Thanks for all your suggestions guys, I've modified my post to explain things better and for giving some order to the team construction and its modifications.
  12. Lucien Lachance

    Lucien Lachance

    Joined:
    May 16, 2010
    Messages:
    669
    I tried Trick Room + Sand a long time ago back in 2012 and I found it very deadly if you could pull it off. I had minor differences that worked well for me and you might like to implement them yourself after some testing.

    I personally used Bronzong to set up Trick Room. It resisted the residual damage from Sand and is incredibly bulky. Bronzong has numerous resistances and it has just as many support moves as Musharna and is capable of being more offensive if you elect to do so.

    For my main sweeper, I choose to use Sand Force Excadrill. Getting an extra 1.3% damage off of its already monstrous Attack stat, Excadrill can easily OHKO or finish off slightly weakened threats with ease. You don't need to run Iron Ball, since with 0 IVs and a Brave nature Excadrill hits 83 speed, which is only underspeed by 0 investment Pokemon who are more than likely dedicated Trick Room counters. Excadrill can also easily scare the opponent into thinking that it is Sand Rush for a powerful starting sweep or perhaps a lategame clean up. With Aggron there is no surprises.

    I feel like Gastrodon would like if it could be more offensive since it can boost its defensive stats with Stockpile. Just a thought.

    Overall, I really love seeing other people trying out underrated weather combinations to make a threatening and totally viable team. My only problem is that it is completely reliant on Trick Room, which can be a bit of a pain at times, but it's manageable. Good luck with testing and whatnot.
  13. blackwolf1401

    blackwolf1401

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2013
    Messages:
    5
    First of all, thanks for your rate.
    Second, I was, in fact, testing something new for Aggron and Musharna. They were doing it great but the "surprise factor" was completely absent of this team, so you're right.
    I will soon edit my original post (and of course the team) and I'll explain things better.

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