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Metagame SM PU Alpha (playable on PS!)

Discussion in 'ORAS PU' started by Anty, Nov 19, 2016.

  1. Anty

    Anty underworked and oversexed
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    [​IMG]
    Welcome to the Sun and Moon PU speculation thread! Since SM PU won't be out for quite a few months, this is the thread to discuss what you think Sun and Moon PU will look like, like what Pokemon do you think will drop? How will Z-moves effect the metagame? Though this thread is just speculation, we would like you to be reasonable in what Pokemon you think will drop, for example Tapu Lele has no chance at dropping to PU, whereas Comfey has a reasonable chance.


    Current tier list can be found here
    Join the PU room on Pokemon Showdown for battles!


    If you need some help in learning new game mechanic changes, here is some relevant information (stolen from Spirit):
    -Z move information: https://paste.ee/r/mvJ70 and http://pastebin.com/d5Hed1cw
    -Abilities such as Refrigerate now give a 1.2x boost instead of a 1.3x boost
    -Thunder Wave is now 90% accurate and reduces Speed to 1/2 and not 1/4
    -Hitting yourself in confusion has been reduced to 33% from 50% [Machoking Intensifies]
    -Destiny Bond now has a chance to fail if used repeatedly, much like Protect
    -Gale Wings now only works if the Pokemon using it is at full health
    -Weak Armor now boosts Speed by +2 in addition to lowering the defense by -1
    -Burn damage has been reduced to 1/16 of the user's max HP
    -Leech Life now buffed to 80 BP
    -Sucker Punch nerfed to 70 BP
    -Dark-types are now immune to priority moves used by Prankster

    And quite a few old Pokemon got buffed:
    - Masquerain, Arbok, and other Pokemon got stat boosts: http://www.serebii.net/sunmoon/updatedstats.shtml
    - Pelipper got Drizzle, Torkoal got Drought, Gigalith got Sand stream, and Vanniluxe got Snow Warming
    - Beartic and Sandlash-A get a new ability, Slush Rush, which doubles Speed in Hail
    - Dodrio gets Swords Dance and Jump Kick (along with a Speed stat boost)
    - Sudowoodo gets Head Smash
    - Seviper gets Swords Dance
    - Bibarrel gets Swords Dance and Aqua Jet
    - Stoutland gets a new move called Psychic Fangs
    - More can be found here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/movepool-changes.3586517/

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    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 11, 2017
  2. SavageToaster

    SavageToaster

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    Well, I'll start with basically a lock for PU: Gumshoos! It's basically a slower Stoutland that hits harder with adaptability. It's really slow for an offensive normal type (which sucks) but bopping everything with banded adaptability frustration sounds fun. Here's two calcs using Stoutland (since it has the same base attack) to show how hard this thing hits.

    252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 144-170 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Stoutland Return vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 190-224 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- 37.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  3. Take Azelfie

    Take Azelfie Master of saying the wrong thing at the right time
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    Bellosom gets Quiver Dance this generation which might be sick to play around with Sleep Powder and Giga Darin. But the Pokemon I'd be most excited to see would be lurantis due to its cool ability in contrary and decent offensive stats that could let it in work as a Swords Dance user or Leaf Storm spammer. Lack of a movepoll really hurts it though.
    Boyeraj17 and Taskr like this.
  4. Machoker

    Machoker

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    Aug 21, 2016
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    Tsareena (F)
    Ability: Queenly Majesty
    Nice grass rapid spinner but with mediocre STAB, no way of breaking ghosts, mediocre speed and no way of boosting any stat, I can def see it here

    Crabominable
    Ability: Iron Fist
    unique typing and design, but overall too slow and while the typing is unique its an awful defensive typing with 6 weaknesses to all too common types. Pu my be getting a new fighting mon

    Lurantis
    Ability: Contrary
    Similar to Tsareena, is just a poor's man Servine that is just awefully slow

    Shiinotic
    Ability: Effect Spore
    Cool lil mushroom and another user of Spore. Is what we thought Florges typing would of been. But outside of spore I don't see a reason to use it over Florges.
    NVM Strenght Sap is ridiculously broken.

    Lycanroc
    Ability: Steadfast
    I really like the design and pure rock is cool and all, but just awful coverage its just a rock purugly, no reason to use over better rock types

    Passimian (Primeape)
    Ability: Defiant
    Ok i put this here not because I think we'll be getting Passimian but because it is litterally a better Primate so no reason to use Primate in NU.
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2016
    Taskr and MemesWithDreams like this.
  5. amber lamps

    amber lamps

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    Quiver bellossom looks like a weaker version of lilligant but with a better coverage with moonblast and sludgebomb, speaking about dancers masquerain got a buff on its stats so we might be able to see it sometimes.
    Dodrio got really more powerful thanks to jump kick, +10 on base speed and access to swords dance, so it might not be PU material anymore, alongside stuff like drought torkoal.
    Boyeraj17 and MemesWithDreams like this.
  6. pancake

    pancake neverending nightmare
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    I agree with most of those except for Komala and Araquanid, and Lurantis to some extent. Lurantis, while slow, has access to Contrary Leaf Storm and Defog. Even though it faces competition from other Grass-types it is a Defogger that is not weak to rocks and has some breaking potential, which for me keeps it out of here... but maybe this is just me overestimating its potential. Maybe Defog and not weak to Rocks isn't enough of a niche. Araquanid's main niche is going to be clicking CB Waterfall and watching Water-resists die. It pulls off this niche really well and its actually ridiculous how hard Water Bubble makes it hit (I'll add a few calcs). I'd expect this to be NU as well... maybe just me again. Komala has a ton of utility and I would be surprised if this was PU; maybe I'm overestimating this as well but rapid spin + not weak to rocks, U-turn, Sucker, Wish, very good coverage... seems good.

    I would also add Mudsdale, it hits pretty hard but its slow as fuck and its movepool is very limited. Marowak Alola is cutting it close but if it got down here it would be really good. An Electric type and Monferno counter with a huge movepool and decent type coverage seems very good; Ninetales-Alola is in the same boat.

    I expect Pelipper, Dodrio, and Gigalith to leave, along with possibly Vanilluxe; there will be no reason to use Hippopotas; Bellossom and Masquerain will have big increase in viability, I think.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2016
    Plancklength and Connor2000 like this.
  7. Connor2000

    Connor2000

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    No one has mentioned Bruxish yet, though. I think it will fall to PU. Although it has a devastating weakness to knock off and grass types, I feel
    that it's ability Dazzling, combined with decent speed and swords dance, will help it shine. Especially since it destroys
    Muk, Trapinch, and Probopass cores. Dazzling also protects it from sucker punch users, such as Pawniard, Cacturne, and Mawile.
    Here's what set I think will be used:
    Bruxish @ Life Orb
    Ability: Dazzling
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Lonely Nature
    - Psychic Fangs
    - Waterfall
    - Swords Dance
    - Ice Beam
    Crunch could be used over Ice Beam to hit pokemon such as Metang and Grumpig harder. I wonder if giving it aqua jet would be good, too.?
    I would give this pokemon a C+ rank. It can break apart common cores such as Muk, Probo, and Trapinch. Unforunately, it lacks superpower, a move that Basculin has that would hit pokemon such as Regice and Lapras much harder. Additionally, it has an unfortunate speed tier that causes it to be unable to outspeed important pokemon such as Leafeon. Due to its average bulk, any pokemon that is able to survive its attacks will likely nearly OHKO or heavily damage it. I think it would be best used as a late game cleaner, or a wallbreaker against stall. A niche it would have over other pokemon is that it cannot be hit with priority attacks.
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2016
    Iloveweather likes this.
  8. GenZeon

    GenZeon

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    I just want to put in my two cents about the most important changes of all PU mons.

    [​IMG] : Arbok's buff from 85 to 95 atk isn't a real game changer. Even though it hits slightly harder now with Gunk shot and EQ, the Sucker Punch nerf kinda sucks for the poison snake, because it deals less damage than before.
    Before changes:
    +1 252+ Atk old Arbok Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 264-312 (84.8 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    +1 252+ Atk old Arbok Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 118-139 (37.9 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    After changes:
    +1 252+ Atk new Arbok Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 283-334 (90.9 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
    +1 252+ Atk new Arbok Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 111-131 (35.6 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Will it stay in PU: Yes!

    [​IMG]
    : Farfetch'd got actually a pretty huge attack buff (from 65 to 90), but to be honest it still has no speed and defenses and it's in general very underwhelming. It should only be used on fun/meme teams, cause it's simply outclassed by other birds.

    Will it stay in PU: Without a shadow of a doubt!

    [​IMG]
    : Oh boy. Dodrio got probably one of the biggest buffs out of all Pokemon. If a speed boost from 100 to 110 wasn't enough, GF also gave it SD and Jump Kick. This monster has no future in PU and will definitely rise to UU or even OU.
    Some calcs for the OU players:
    252 Atk Life Orb Dodrio Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 242-286 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Dodrio Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 335-395 (85 - 100.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Life Orb Dodrio Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 273-321 (91.3 - 107.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Will it stay in PU: No way!

    [​IMG]
    : Electrode's buff from 140 speed to 150 doesn't really matter at all. The only things it now outspeeds are: Adamant Ninjask (rare), +2 Relicanth/Weepinbell, Modest scarfed Chatot (rare) and scarfed Monferno (rare).

    Will it stay in PU: Yes!

    [​IMG]
    : Another bird that got buffed. The special attack buff is highly appreciated and also the addition of Moonblast is really nice, but it's main set will remain as a special defensive wall. Even though it has such a nice movepool (Psychic, Heatwave, Shadowball, Moonblast), 86 spatk is just too weak. Pls GF give this little bird Hurricane :/

    Will it stay in PU: Definitely!


    [​IMG] : Ariados got some interesting new features, which I'm looking forward to use. First of all, it's spdef rose to 70 (now it has 70/70/70 bulk), which is still meh. But it also got SD and a new move called "Toxic Thread" which lowers the opponents speed by 1 and also poisons the opponent.
    A possible moveset could look like this:
    Ariados @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Sniper
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Sticky Web
    - Toxic Thread
    - Sucker Punch
    - Megahorn

    In all honesty, I still believe it is outclassed by other Sticky webbers, but maybe it can find it's own niche.

    Will it stay in PU: Yeah!

    [​IMG]
    : Buffs: HP 50->60 and Spatk 80->90
    I'll keep it short: It's still a mon with an super bad typing and it's still outclassed by the likes of Golem or Stunfisk.

    Will it stay in PU: Yes!

    [​IMG] : This is a mon I'm exited for. All of it's bulk rose from 55/85/85 to 65/95/95, which makes it a sturdy wall combined with Regenerator. It also got the new busted watertype move "Liquidation" with 85 bp and a chance to lower the opponents defense. Corsola is definitely a force to be reckoned with in the new meta.

    Will it stay in PU: Most likely!

    [​IMG]
    : This thing is interesting. With it's upgraded Spatk and Speed it's actually a scary setup sweeper. With Intimidate it creates setup opportunities against physical attackers and at +1 it outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame besides Ninjask and Electrode. Flying types (maybe Noctowl???), which normally wall this thing, get rekt by an strong Ice Beam.
    An interesting calc:
    -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Masquerain: 238-282 (84.3 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Masquerain Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stoutland: 261-308 (83.9 - 99%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Will it stay in PU: Probably, because of Vivillion and Lilligant!

    [​IMG] : Buff: Speed 70->90 and it still sucks

    Will it stay in PU: The day this rises to NU I'll quit Pokemon forever!

    [​IMG]
    : Volbeat (and Illumise) got both better bulk, which makes Tail Glow passing even more viable and threatening. Also as PU's premier rain setter, it can now setup rain even easier than before.
    Some calcs to show it's improved bulk:
    Before: 252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volbeat: 252-297 (75.4 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    After: 252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volbeat: 211-249 (63.1 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Before: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volbeat: 280-331 (83.8 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    After: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volbeat: 255-300 (76.3 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Will it stay in PU: Honestly I'm not sure, but probably not!


    [​IMG][​IMG] : Both got an increase in HP and a new move each. Power Gem and Flare Blitz. That's quit an huge buff for both of them, because Lunatone, which runs normally an offensive set with LO, really needs a strong, special rock move. Solrock won't really run Flare Blitz, because it's main set/niche is a rocker with will-o-wisp and levitate, so the increase of HP really comes in handy.
    Some calcs:
    Before: 252+ Atk Choice Band Leafeon Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 344-408 (100 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    After: 252+ Atk Choice Band Leafeon Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 344-408 (89.5 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
    Before: 252+ SpA Life Orb Lunatone Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Monferno: 191-226 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    After: 252+ SpA Life Orb Lunatone Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Monferno: 253-300 (94 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Will they stay in PU: Lunatone for sure and Solrock probably!

    [​IMG]
    : Even though Chimecho has pretty good bulk with 75/80/90 after the buff, I still see no reason to use this mon over Grumpig. It only benefits are a ground immunity, slightly better physical bulk and screens.

    Will it stay in PU: Yes!


    [​IMG]
    : Crustle's attack increase from 95 to 105 doen't change much.
    Here are some examples:
    Before: +2 252 Atk Crustle Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Golem: 282-332 (77.6 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    After: +2 252 Atk Crustle Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Golem: 300-354 (82.6 - 97.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Before: +2 252 Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 288-339 (92.6 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    After: +2 252 Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 307-363 (98.7 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

    Will it stay in PU: Most likely!


    [​IMG]
    : Finally this thing doesn't die of any priority move in the game thanks to and def boost from 30 to 50 and an HP buff from 70 to 80.
    Just a little example:
    Before: 252 Atk Iron Fist Monferno Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cryogonal: 270-320 (96 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
    After: 252 Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cryogonal: 302-356 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Okay maybe this isn't the greatest example of all time, but damn that second calc made me happy :)
    But in all honesty, I don't believe this thing is staying in the tier. Cryo was always a decent mon in NU and now it got a lot better.

    Will it stay in PU: Nope!


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    : All of them won't stay in PU. Peli will rise to OU, because it is a great supporter for mons like Swampert, Kingdra or Tapu Koko. Qurtel will only rise when drought gets unbanned in UU and below. It's simply not good enough for OU in my opinion. Same goes with Gigalith, which is a good mon, but outclassed by Tyranitar and Hippo. Vanilluxe will rise to NU, because it's just too strong with it's 100% accuracy Blizzard.


    [​IMG] : This thing is BUSTED with SD and Aqua Jet. After one SD it is nearly unstoppable. It can basically ohko all major sweepers (Floatzel, Zebstrika, Mr. Mime,...) at +4 with the combination of Jet and QA. This monster will definitely rise atleast to RU or maybe even higher.


    [​IMG] : Air Slash -> Useless
    [​IMG] : Stockpile -> Useless
    [​IMG] : Stomping Tantrum -> Interesting, but probably worse than EQ or Bonemerang
    [​IMG] : Coil -> Not a bad move, but it's outclassed by Stoutland
    [​IMG] : Air Slash -> Useless
    [​IMG] : Quiver Dance -> Could be her main set, but she is even after +1 speed pretty slow
    [​IMG] : Head Smash & Tearful Look -> It's still whack, what you losers gon' do?
    [​IMG] : Air Slash & Dragon Rush -> Useless
    [​IMG] : Drill Peck -> Useless
    [​IMG] : Noble Roar -> Useless
    [​IMG] : Belch -> Actually works against Cacturn after the triggered Colbur Berry from Sucker Punch
    [​IMG] : Spotlight -> Useless
    [​IMG] : Swords Dance -> Interesting, but no benefits over Arbok
    [​IMG] : Belch -> Useless
    [​IMG] : Quiver Dance & Bug Buzz -> No reason to use it over other Quiver Dancers like Masquerain
    [​IMG] : Lunge -> Good move, bad Pokemon
    [​IMG] : Magnetic Flux -> Useless
    [​IMG] : Nasty Plot -> Useless
    [​IMG] : Psychic Fangs -> Return, Facade, Superpower and Pursuit/Crunch are more useful
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] : Frenzy Plant, Blast Burn, Hydro Cannon -> Useless
    [​IMG] : Head Smash -> Actually a neat addition to kill things like Altaria or Articuno
    [​IMG] : Speed Swap -> Useless
    [​IMG] : Psychic Terrain -> Interesting
    [​IMG] : Fire Lash -> Useless

    Peace!
  9. Solar Flare

    Solar Flare

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    57
    Just gonna put my opinion out there for the buffs and whether or not we're keeping the buffed mons.

    First, mons who were given new moves:

    Kanto
    Butterfree - Air Slash. This isn't a huge buff but its somewhat decent, it won't effect Butterfree's viability much honestly, but does just give you less reason to use Mothim over it.
    Dodrio - Jump Kick & Swords Dance. +10 Spe. These buffs combo'd together are just so good. It now has answers for rocks and steels as well as a speed tier viable in higher tiers. Definitely will NOT be keeping this.
    Fearow - Focus Energy. This could be really good for Fearow since it has sniper. Or, it could be literally nothing. Who knows?
    Marowak - Stomping Tantrum. No reason to use this over Bonemerang.
    Wigglytuff - Stockpile. No reason to really use Stockpile Wigglytuff.

    Johto
    Furret - Coil. This gives Furret a niche as a Coilpasser, but the issue is that Huntail and Gorebyss already do this and even then its not a fantastic niche, just use them for shell smash. Might change its rank from E to D but odds are its still complete trash.
    Noctowl - Moonblast. +10 SpA. Nothing too big, but the +10 could be nice. Makes Noctowl not as passive as a defogger and could actually make it decent offensively.
    Ledian - Air Slash. No reason to use air slash on Ledian. In fact, no reason to use Ledian in general.
    Ariados - Swords Dance & Toxic Thread. +10 SpD. Ariados was already given a decent buff via the Leech Life buff (now 80 BP), but these small buffs could actually give Ariados some type of niche in the metagame thanks to its not bad attack and priority. However, competition with other poisons probably will make this buff not enough.
    Pichu - Electric Terrain. Alolan Raichu could use this as a Self-Setting sweeper like Golduck, thanks to Surge Surfer. However, I don't know if this will be enough of a buff to warrant use.
    Bellossom - Quiver Dance. This is a cool as hell buff. Bellossom may be slow but has decent SpA, good bulk, and a movepool that isn't exactly bad. This could be just what it needs to put it on the map viability wise.
    Sudowoodo - Head Smash & Tearful Look. Sudowoodo with a stab that it can abuse thanks to rock head looks good, but the existence of Relicanth just kind of makes that seem way worse. However, wood hammer is also a good coverage move it gets so we can see where that goes I guess.
    Dunsparce - Air Slash & Dragon Rush. Nothing notable here, just use headbutt and/or rock slide, or better yet don't use Dunsparce.
    Corsola - Liquidation. +10 HP, +10 Def, +10 SpD. This isn't a big buff, and Relicanth outclasses Corsola in every sense of the word, but its still neat that Corsola finally has a usable physical water stab to go with Hustle.
    Delibird - Drill Peck. Same thing with Corsola, outclassed but its neat that it now has a good physical flying stab to abuse hustle with.

    Hoenn
    Carvanha - Psychic Fangs. Could be neat coverage but I doubt it will change much.
    Wailord - Noble Roar. Useless "buff."
    Grumpig - Belch. Also a useless buff
    Spinda - Spotlight. see above
    Masquerain - Lunge. +20 SpA, +20 Spe. While Lunge will do nothing for Masquerain, the stat buffs are insane and I cannot see us keeping this whatsoever. Hydro pump+good stats is just something I can't see PU Having.
    Seviper - Swords Dance. Gives it a Cacturne-like niche in PU but don't see any reason to use it over Arbok.
    Whiscash - Belch Useless.
    Lunatone - Power Gem. +20 HP. the Hp buff, and access to special rock stab could be really good for Lunatone. It does in fact have good special attack, access to earth power to have edgequake coverage, and boosting moves like rock polish and calm mind.
    Solrock - Flare Blitz. +20 HP. Solrock can now do what it does best even better. Not much to say.

    Sinnoh
    Bibarel - Swords Dance, Crunch, & Aqua Jet. Bibarel now has 2 options for priority, a boosting move to boost to +4 in a single turn (sure intimidate brings that to +2 but still), and the ability to now hit ghosts consistantly. It definitely won't be broken, but I don't know if we'll keep it.
    Wormadam - Quiver Dance & Bug Buzz. Nothing really notable here, nice moves but no stats to really abuse them that well just leaves me to want to use the buffed butterfree instead.
    Mothim - Lunge. Access to a physical bug move could give mothim a niche but it won't get used with something like Ninjask running around, as well as Butterfree.
    Probopass - Magnetic Flux. Not noteworthy.

    Unova
    Watchog - Nasty Plot. Watchog can now nasty pass, which against just makes me think "why would I use this over said normal type" still, just now I can say its outclassed by Girafarig too.
    Lillipup - Psychic Fangs. Could be neat coverage like with Carvanha, but I'd still rather use the usual set for Stoutland.
    Simisage - Frenzy Plant. Why has
    Simisear - Blast Burn. God
    Simipour - Hydro Cannon. Forsaken us.
    Basculin - Head Smash. Neat Coverage for Rock head but adaptability waterfall will probably still be better.
    Emolga - Speed Swap. Time to give the opponent my good speed. Don't see how this will fail!
    Beheeyem - Psychic Terrain. I don't see this doing much for Beheeyem.
    Heatmor - Fire Lash. A cool move that can be used on physical Heatmor to make its counters easier to break

    Now, stat boosts and/or ability changes:

    Kanto
    Arbok - +10 Attack. Could be good, helps it break things more, but its definitely nothing too too major.
    Electrode - +10 Spe. Allows it to run less speed EVs on normal sets which gives it more EVs for HP, but also lets it outspeed more? Too bad its still not gonna be running max speed, lets be real.
    Farfetch'd - +25 Attack. Please see the Simis.

    Johto
    Magcargo - +10 HP, +10 SpA. Nothing noteworthy here, but there was that time where Magcargo was D due to its typing and ability. Maybe these could put it back into D?

    Hoenn
    Chimecho - +10 HP, +10 Def, +10 SpD. Chimecho is still pretty ass, this won't change much.
    Delcatty - +10 Spe. Lopunny exists. Please use Lopunny.
    Pelipper - +10 SpA, +Drizzle. Not only is Pelipper the only weather setter with u-turn, its also the only weather setter with stab hurricane. Even has more SpA than Politoed. However, we won't get that end of the buff. the SpA buff is cool for Peli, doesn't change too much besides offensive being better but still see defensive being the best set.
    Volbeat & Illumise - +20 Def, +10 SpD. Volbeat and Illumise have always been neat bulky pivots, thanks to roost and thunder wave, but now they may be slightly better. They're also bugs, they can hit darks who swap in on their prankster with a stab U-Turn.
    Torkoal - +Drought. This won't change a single thing, Torkoal is still trash as hell.

    Unova
    Beartic - +20 Atk, +Slush Rush. With new hail setters being added to the game, hail abusers are going to be nice to have. Beartic fits the role of hail abuser perfectly. It already has done wonders on rain in PU thanks to swift swim, but now Slush Rush lets it do the same on hail. +20 attack also means Beartic is going to hit like a truck now (as if it didn't before).
    Crustle - +10 Atk. Doesn't change much, just makes crustle even nicer as a suilead or as a shell smash abuser.
    Cryogonal - +10 HP, +20 Def. Finally, Cryogonal won't feel like a sheet of wet paper when it comes to physical attacks. Now it can actually take at least 1 hit before dying. It is also even fatter specially, so can see this thing getting better.
    Gigalith - +Sand Stream. Gigalith with Sand Stream is nice, since it has great bulk (especially with sand up) and good offenses. Pair it with Stoutland and things will die.
    Vanilluxe - +Snow Warning. Vanilluxe is now a monster, especially when paired with Beartic. Vanilluxe punches holes in teams with its 110 SpA and Blizzard, while Beartic breaks and cleans with its 130 Atk and Slush Rush. I'll go as far to say that we won't keep this, but if we do it will be really nice.
  10. Taskr

    Taskr

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    196
    [​IMG]
    Example Set:
    Mareanie @ Eviolite
    Ability: Regenerator
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Scald
    - Recover
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Haze

    Here is a very interesting NFE that might get some use in PU. Mareanie has access to a lot of good moves like Scald and Toxic Spikes along with reliably recovery and great ability in Regenerator. It's typing let's it take on Monferno and a lot of the water types in the tier. For Toxic Spikes at the moment we're basically limited to Roselia, Frogadier and Smeargle so having another T-Spikes user will be a breath of fresh air. I can see Mareanie being used primarily on Balance and Stall teams as these appreciate Toxic Spikes the most.

    Calcs (open)

    252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 49-58 (16.1 - 19.1%) -- possible 6HKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 97-114 (32 - 37.6%) -- 92.3% chance to 3HKO

    252 Atk Choice Band Leafeon Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 127-150 (41.9 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2016
    Boyeraj17, eht, wishes and 12 others like this.
  11. Magnemite

    Magnemite
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    3,173
    There's no way Araquanid will be PU with how insane its ability is, lol.

    In a while once we have a slightly less vague idea of how good everything is, I want to make a full list of Pokemon that we might gain or lose this generation so that we can play a speculative meta.

    e: there's also no way were getting Type: Null (unless other tiers forget it exists which may well happen), a Normal type with 95/95/95 defenses and Eviolite would be ridiculous in PU even with its lack of a recovery move.
    Kutscher likes this.
  12. pancake

    pancake neverending nightmare
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
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    1,177
    I very much disagree with this. I'm expecting RU for Bruxish... not even close to C+ rank in PU. There's a few really good things about Bruxish that make it much better than you originally make it out to be. I'd suggest checking out the entire thread I wrote about this Pokemon here.

    - With Dazzling + Aqua Jet, SD Bruxish is very difficult to revenge kill. This is really important for a sweeper, and drastically improves the matchup against offense because many offensive teams rely on a Scarfer or Priority to revenge kill you (lol this is obvious but whatever) and so because they can't use this priority and Aqua Jet "outspeeds" their scarfer, it is a lot more difficult to revenge kill than you might expect.

    - Both sets hit hard as fuck with Psychic Fangs. STAB Strong Jaw Psychic Fangs is actually ridiculous and it 2HKOs many typical Psychic-type switchins for balance / offense. Combined with decent speed, it is difficult to switch a lot of things into this, especially in lower tiers.

    I have high hopes for Bruxish for RU, but it definitely won't drop any lower than NU, certainly not to C+ rank in PU.
    Lord Sample Team and GenZeon like this.
  13. TTFTW

    TTFTW
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    Apr 23, 2015
    Messages:
    387
    (◕‿◕✿) mudsdale is kinda mediocre and will likely be pu as well imo, araquanid is beyond busted and for the sake of a balanced tier you should hope for it not to drop. other thing that doesn't surprise me at all is turtonator, can't really tell if it's pu material or not, but essentially it's not something i consider to be any good(◕‿◕✿)
    (◕‿◕✿) 17/50(◕‿◕✿)
    Pearl likes this.
  14. Machoker

    Machoker

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2016
    Messages:
    60
    As much as I would love for this thing in PU it won't drop. Toxi is a lock ou because is so good so with all amazing ou things the evio version will be snatched by one of the lower tiers.
  15. neoELVIS

    neoELVIS

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2016
    Messages:
    19
    something I want to say is that smeargle cant use dark void anymore. I don't think I read it anywhere on here but yeah. somethings changed about sketch gen 7 I guess I don't know.
  16. Melons-N-Soda

    Melons-N-Soda

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2013
    Messages:
    665
    If Dodrio does end up leaving, what could, at the very least, be a somewhat viable replacement as a Flying-type attacker?
  17. HotFuzzBall

    HotFuzzBall im bored now
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    858
    fyi Don't use Floral Healing on Comfey, it only targets opponents and allies!!!!!!!

    Toucannon will probably find itself in PU.

    Stallbreaker
    Toucannon @ Life Orb / Leftovers
    Ability: Skill Link / Sheer Force
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Att / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Drill Peck / Brave Bird
    - Swords Dance
    - Substitute
    - Roost

    Choice Band/Scarf

    Toucannon @ Choice Band / Choice Scarf
    Ability: Skill Link
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Att / 252 Spe
    Jolly / Adamant / Lonely Nature
    - Drill Peck / Brave Bird
    - Bullet Seed
    - Return
    - U-Turn / Overheat

    I believe these 2 sets will function pretty well in PU.
    Sacrificed and Melons-N-Soda like this.
  18. Sacrificed

    Sacrificed

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2015
    Messages:
    5
    I think murkrow would be best replacement for Flying type attacker,İf dodrio leaves.[​IMG]
  19. Lord Sample Team

    Lord Sample Team

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2016
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    Fearow is the most direct replacement, but we also have a few other Physical Flying types in Jumpluff, Drifblim, Ninjask, and Murkrow. I would also venture a guess that we might end up with a few if not all of the Oricorio formes though i haven't really tested them yet.
  20. SergioRules

    SergioRules

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2015
    Messages:
    65
    Midday Form: I slightly disagree with this. While it doesn't have much in the way of coverage, it is not just a rock type Purugly given the fact that Purugly only has 82 Atk and Lycanroc has 115. Also Rock STAB is much better than Normal STAB. I think the only reason Purugly isn't as good as it should be is because of its lackluster attack. Roc also has a different ability in Sand Rush, allowing it to run Adamant on sand teams and giving it even more power. It also has Swords Dance/Bulk Up along with a fast Taunt and Stealth Rock. This thing will absolutely not be PU (in my humble opinion). In fact, I could see it functioning well in OU with the sand setters and Excadrill, but without sand support I could see it more in RU. Fun fact: the only common things that can out-speed Adamant Sand Rush Lycanroc are Unburdened Hawlucha and +2 Scolipede.

    Midnight Form:
    This thing however, I could for sure see down near us. No Guard Stone Edges are good but 82 Speed leaves it very slow and its bulk still isn't great even though it has more than Midday. I could see this form possibly being PU but a Rock Polish set looks kinda frightening if it can set up.
  21. Cubonesmother

    Cubonesmother

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2016
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    12
    True but it won't affect the tier too much because it can still use spore :]
  22. Machoker

    Machoker

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2016
    Messages:
    60
    Alright so I know we in the SuMo mons hype train, but I also think with the help of gen 7 mechanics we will be getting back our good friend Machoke back. I tested the new confusion mechanics with the help of ShuckleDeath and with only 33% of hitting yourself in confusion Machoke does not seem broken at all anymore.

    Taskr likes this.
  23. EnemyJurist

    EnemyJurist

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2015
    Messages:
    439
    To be honest, I'm expecting PU to be very different in SuMo than what it was in ORAS. I believe OU is going to change drastically with even more power creep, and that means the rest of the tiers will as well, unless the tier leaders decide to try and recreate what we had in ORAS. If OU shifts to become more powerful, so will UU, RU, NU, and of course PU. I think we could potentially be looking at an entirely different meta.

    A lot of mons got new access to Quiver Dance, which is really neat (Bellossom and the Wormadams.) Other people have covered Bellossom, but the Worms have not yet been covered, so I wanted to go through a bit of what they can do.

    Wormadam-Trash is probably the best user of the move, as it has the best defensive typing and good coverage on its dual stab. I'm picturing a moveset of Quiver Dance, Bug Buzz (which the worms also got access to in SuMo), Flash Cannon, and Hidden Power Ground for Ground- and Fire- type pokemon. Timid Max Speed outspeeds Zebstrika and Floatzel at +2, and some viable items include Leftovers, A Z-Crystal of your choice, a Life Orb, or even an Occa Berry:

    252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Overheat vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Occa Berry Wormadam-Trash: 187-221 (71.6 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252 SpA Wormadam-S Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zebstrika: 283-334 (96.9 - 114.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

    I can see the other worms working also, though probably not as well as the trash form. Wormadam-Sandy can use Bug Buzz/Earth Power dual stab, which is probably the best coverage of any of the worm's dual stab, although it's weaker to more types than Fire. I doubt the normal form will come close to the other two in viability.


    The weather setters are all interesting. I disagree with GenZeon on a few of his points about them, particularly Torkoal and Gigalith. Pelipper is ofc leaving, and I think Torkoal is going to go the same way Ninetales went (separated from ability in lower tiers.) Vanilluxe is extremely interesting, as Weak Armor got buffed (+2 speed instead of +1) in addition to it gaining Snow Warning. I can see it seriously using scarf because its fast enough to outspeed all unboosted mons (except Ninjask) and can fire off very powerful Blizzards. Might move up to NU or even RU. Gigalith is also a cool option due to not having any 4x weaknesses with 130 base defense and 80 base special defense, with the sand boost to his spdef. I don't think it'll move up any tiers but I think it might make a cool tank in PU.

    Bibarel is also extremely cool with it gaining Aqua Jet and Swords Dance and already having Curse+Quick Attack. I can see SD+3 Attacks ending up in RU or UU.

    Cryogonal defense buff (70/30/135->80/50/135) is actually really neat. Now it doesn't need investment to survive +0 Sucker Punch from Pawniard (especially considering the nerf. Pawn might have become obsolete purely because of it, or at least moved down a few ranks.)

    Finally, I doubt Mareanie will be higher than PU considering 50/62/52 defenses. I guess I could see NU, but that bulk isn't near good enough, even with Regenerator+reliable recovery. Look at Tangela, which has 65/115 defense and Synthesis+Regenerator and is still PU.
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
  24. Solar Flare

    Solar Flare

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    57
    I feel I have made a fairly accurate list of what our gains/losses will be for gen 7 PU (not final ofc)
    Gain:
    [​IMG]Crabominable
    [​IMG]Fletchinder
    [​IMG]Gumshoos
    [​IMG]Lurantis
    [​IMG]Lycanroc-Midnight
    [​IMG]Komala
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]Oricorio (all but sensu)
    [​IMG]Oranguru
    [​IMG]Primeape (Might be a little overpowered, will be looking into this)
    [​IMG]Pyukumuku
    [​IMG]Silvallly (Poison / Bug / Ice / Fire type)
    [​IMG]Togedemaru
    [​IMG]Toucannon
    [​IMG]Wishiwashi
    [​IMG]Dugtrio-A (Might also be questionable)
    [​IMG]Persian-A
    [​IMG]Raticate-A
    [​IMG]Sandslash-A
    [​IMG]All Gen 7 NFE/LC mons

    Lose:
    [​IMG]Dodrio
    [​IMG]Pelipper

    Probably not the most accurate thing though, that is why its a speculation thread though.

    A reminder: Because its gen 7 PU, Bl4 mons are now considered PU and imo can be used in "speculation PU." These mons include:
    [​IMG]Carracosta
    [​IMG]Exeggutor
    [​IMG]Linoone
    [​IMG]Machoke
    [​IMG]Musharna
    [​IMG]Throh
    [​IMG]Victreebel
    [​IMG]Vigoroth


    Discussion points: Gigalith (loss), Vanilluxe (loss), Beartic (lose), Ninetales-A (gain)
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2016
    Boyeraj17, TJ, Memeing Hard and 3 others like this.
  25. MaroGod

    MaroGod

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2013
    Messages:
    416
    A lot of people know that around the end of ORAS i got really really bored of just building for it and lately with this speculation metaish thing i honestly have been really enjoying it simply because it's been a ton of fun. As far as the lists put by multiple people there are obviously some mons that won't drop because well they will be fine in other tiers (Araquanid,Alolan-Dugtrio,Pyukumuku ect) but there is a ton of fun shit.

    [​IMG]

    Persian-A sets (open)
    Persian-Alola @ Darkinium Z / Black Glasses
    Ability: Fur Coat
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Nasty Plot
    - Dark Pulse
    - Power Gem
    - Parting Shot


    Persian-Alola @ Life Orb
    Ability: Technician
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 1 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
    - Nasty Plot
    - Dark Pulse
    - Power Gem
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]

    This is just something i love using and i honestly heavily underrated it overall because...well it's still a Persian and while its not gonna be some top tier threat it is a rather decent and fun sweeper/support mon on teams thanks to that maintained high speed stat and usable special attack stat+coverage. This unlike its vanilla form has a lot going for it due to both it's typing and access to Z-Parting Shot and Fur Coat, For those who don't know Z-Parting Shot heals what you pivot into, i'm honestly really excited to get this and the only reason i'm so sure of it is mainly due to Liepard likely remaining in NU.
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2016

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  1. Dolph The Showoff