Smogon's Official Ladder Tournament III - Round 2 (Loser brackets)

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Read the subtitles to this song. I find they fit this battle perfectly.


"Advance to tomorrow" - siege mentality
"My passionate heart" - Tele as he called multiple TDs out
"Everyone come here (more and more)" - people from many, many servers flocking to see this circus attraction
"I'm still not giving up (Hi hi hi)" - both players as they ground out 1287 turns
"Let's dance, with an unlimited energy" - Tele as he consumed his 8th ROCKSTAR of the morning
"Something... is beginning" - ABR as he clicked an attack
 

Steve Angello

Tournament Banned
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Using timezones as a wincondition is gay as fuck. I mean it is the fault of the players for using stall, but I feel with Tele here. ABR hasn't done anything wrong here and it could have been a "legit" way of winning that battle. But I personally think it should be infracted that he said something like "I hope it hurts your RL" Yeah I am the wrong person to call infractions since I m stupid in battles as well but I never tried to hurt someones RL. Next level strats.

Its no offense to ABR as a player, he is a great player.
 

Tele

a quality human being
So what, in your twisted, juvenile mind, gives you the idea that it would be appropiate to go on a full capslock rant insulting him, insulting mods, being homophobic, etc.pp.? You need to seriously, and I mean SERIOUSLY need to re-think several of your life-choices if that behavior seems like the correct choice for you, because I'll assure you, once you're an adult, you'll get nowhere like this
dont pull this bullshit on me you retarded (BAN ME PLEASE)

i thought doing abr a favour in agreeing to play yesterday becos he told me he would be leaving for the weekend and wouldnt come back until next week. I rarely play my games on weekdays but given the extreme circumstances i agreed on playing at 11pm of a wednesday. i didnt give much importance to the game either given the fact its round 2 and there are at least 10 more rounds to go. i certainly didnt expect abr to pull this retarded shit. im not the one who should question his life choices since im not the one who unecessarily prolonged the game for 7 hours.
i indeed insulted dezkeh. at 3am my time, i asked for a tie to be drawn after abr had been switching for the last 250 turns or so. dezkeh answered on the smogtours chat by asking me to shut up and play. at the end of the day abr just showed how much of a tryhard he is and the tders showed how much iased they are.
 
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I guess enough people have said something that it's time to respond.

Timezone/timer stalling was never my win path, and any time I said that was my win condition it was simply to get to tele's head, like any trash talking is meant to do.

I said it at turn 200, and about 15 more times: I had a legitimate way to kill his pokemon. As we can see from the way the game ended, I won just like any other pokemon game is won, and I did in fact utilize that win condition I was referencing.

Now you might ask why I didn't go for game sooner. If you were paying attention to the game at all, you'll notice that I had to entirely risk the game to make progress. There were like 10 occasions where I attacked skarm vs azu as he switched out, and if I didn't time those perfectly he could have scald burned me. There were many more cases of this which I won't go into, but generally I wanted to make those kinds of plays at very unexpected times, not every few turns. If I pull the same doubles for 50 turns and then attack sparingly, his chances of predicting me are super low.

If you think I did anything other than play how I needed to win after turn 300 or whatever then you're simply wrong.
 

NVT_Sart

Banned deucer.
Using timezones as a wincondition is gay as fuck. I mean it is the fault of the players for using stall, but I feel with Tele here. ABR hasn't done anything wrong here and it could have been a "legit" way of winning that battle. But I personally think it should be infracted that he said something like "I hope it hurts your RL" Yeah I am the wrong person to call infractions since I m stupid in battles as well but I never tried to hurt someones RL. Next level strats.

Its no offense to ABR as a player, he is a great player.
Why should he get an infraction for that? Tele was the one stalling out an obvious loss for hundreds of turns, ABR reacted in kind. Tele was the one making this battle a problem, ABR wished him to suffer consequences.

ABR did nothing wrong. Neither from a rule, nor a moral point of view.
 

Tele

a quality human being
i mean, abr lost to bushtush in 2 games anyway, hes clearly not going anywhere and hes most likely gonna get kicked out of the tournament by the next round. he perfectly knows that so hes trying to "have fun" while it lasts, and by 'have fun' i mean sitting in front of his pc for 7 hours and force everyone to watch a pathetic show

i still think i would have been perfectly able to win that game by playing at a reasonable time. my team is better than his and its winning 9 times out of 10. yesterdays game also helped me to figure out some fixes that could make the team a lot better. thats what truly matters the most to me. abrs team is an insta loss to chard Y instead. enough said
 
Every team has a weakness, like SD Lum Bisharp for your team, this is incredibile, ABR totally outplayed you with a really bad matchup and your excuse is to have played in a bad time? You are seriously the Anti-Pokèmon, a game made just to have fun and your matches are full of disrespect, and you still think the spectators are losers? Cmon, why should they root on a disrespectful player like you?
 

Finchinator

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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Anyone criticizing ABR for how he handled that game while not doing the same for Tele is in the wrong here. If you want to be civil and respect both players, their team choices, and their execution throughout the game, then by all means, do so - personally, I find this the ideal way of acting in almost all situations. But if you're going to give someone flack for the team they brought or the way they managed the game, then the party to direct that at is definitely Tele here.

Just look at Tele's team:
TWave / Ice Beam / HP Fighting / Roost Mega Latias
Discharge / Heat Wave / Roost / Defog Zapdos
Wish / Protect / Heal Bell / Moonblast Clefable
Taunt / Softboiled / Will-O-Wisp / Knock Off Mew
Toxic / presumably Stealth Rock as nothing else had it / presumably Iron Head or Seismic Toss to do some form of damage / ? Registeel
Rest / Toxic / Scald / Encore Azumarill

(Italics indicate attacking moves while underline indicates status moves or moves that can be used to 'fish' for status (i.e: 30% secondary effect moves))

There is no win condition on this team. This team just sits there and doesn't die. Tele was, more or less, begging for a game that would last hours and hours in bringing this team, especially against someone like ABR who is known for bringing conservative builds himself. Essentially, Tele either brought this team with complete disregard for his opponent and the prospect that it would likely drag the game out for a long time due to the nature of the team or Tele considered this prospect and determined that a prolonged game would be fun because he could flaunt his ego and attitude throughout the game and the aftermath regardless of the result due to the marathon nature of the impending game.

Tele's only ways of doing consistent damage were: Poison (Toxic on Registeel and Azumarill) and Burn (Will-O-Wisp on Mew, Scald on Azumarill, and Heat Wave on Zapdos) which had status overlap with multiple pokemon that could inflict paralysis* (TWave on Latias and Discharge on Zapdos), non-boosted non-STAB attacks off of a weak Mega Latias, uninvested attacks off of a primarily supportive Zapdos, uninvested Moonblast off of a Clefable that's WishTecting almost all of the time, Knock Off from Mew, weak Scald from defensive Azumarill, and Stealth Rock.

*Paralysis actually hurts this team in any match-up against opposing semi-stall/stall because it tilts the PP war in the favor of the opponent and there's no strong way to take advantage of paralysis without an actual win condition unless you're playing offense and want to slow down a breaker, so Tele essentially has multiple moves that he has to avoid at all costs in order to prioritize other statuses and yet he still failed to find room to add a distinct win condition onto his team.

This team has no way whatsoever to beat teams with a fair amount of longevity when they're played intelligently. ABR's team is the perfect example of this as he had multiple pokemon with recovery and he worked his way around the very few lose conditions he had (they all involve taking unnecessary risks, essentially, which Tele's team had little-to-no way of provoking because he applied no pressure on the opponent). In theory, Tele's team can beat offense if he doesn't run into the wrong breaker, but because he has no way to do much direct damage, his odds of cleanly getting out of just about any match-up are significantly compromised because he will be taking so many hits in the process of slowly taking everything down.

If you look at other stall/semi-stall teams, you'll see they all have a win condition (and often times they slight offensive presence of some sort, too). Some examples of win conditions that have seen use on stall in the past are: Curse Quagsire, BU Talonflame, CM Clefable, CM Mega Latias, CM Suicune, SD Mega Scizor, SD Gliscor, and, now, even SD Skarmory! Basically every ORAS stall build I've seen has had one of these or some other form of a direct way to win the game. Some even had these in conjunction with a way of actually making progress on the opponents' team offensively (CB Weavile on ABR's stall is a prime example) and many of them had Spikes, which Tele would've desperately appreciated on his build to actually punish things for switching so frequently.

Tele's team had no set-in-stone way to actually win the game. His team was about as do-nothing as humanly possible. By bringing this, Tele essentially handed the second game to ABR assuming he brought anything with a breaker or with longevity AND Tele took the fairly likely risk of having to play a game that came down to PP wars, both teams chipping away at each other progressively, etc. Nobody should feel any sympathy for Tele for having to stay up until 6:30am to play that game and nobody should blame ABR for the length of that game as Tele enabled it by bringing what he did and not ever relenting. ABR just maximized his odds of winning by making sure his win condition came through in the long haul through PP stalling of the pokemon that stood in it's way.


tl;dr - DON'T BRING DO-NOTHING TEAMS WITHOUT WIN CONDITIONS
 

Tele

a quality human being
Every team has a weakness, like SD Lum Bisharp for your team, this is incredibile, ABR totally outplayed you with a really bad matchup and your excuse is to have played in a bad time? You are seriously the Anti-Pokèmon, a game made just to have fun and your matches are full of disrespect, and you still think the spectators are losers? Cmon, why should they root on a disrespectful player like you?
and here you have another guy whos mad at me for not letting him get into the italian world cup team last year!

no, sd bisharp doesnt beat my team becos i have defensive zapdos

no, abr didnt outplay me, tiredness did

i said spectators lost too becos theres no real gain from watching such a pathetic, fake show. u clearly didnt get the sense of my words

finchinator everyone knows ur siding with abr no matter what and your siding against me no matter what so u might as well spare our time with innacurate analysis of what happened

mew is always a win condition btw
and if ur trying to say that my team looks like bad, ill answer to you by saying thats its probably better than any other team you have ever made or will ever make
 
lol why do you talk without know the facts? I refused to play for swc because i wanted to take a brief break, anyway i'm leaving, nobody is interested on why i didnt played the swc. Bye bye
 

Aberforth

Californium is PoMMan now.
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Tele it's pretty obvious that the team you brought was designed to not lose. If you don't have a way to win, the team is not a good team. This isn't a new concept either, Borat's Guide to GSC came out years ago and he said as much in it, and it hasn't changed over the generations. By bringing a team designed to not lose, you're banking on your opponent not being good enough to win, and ABR demonstrated that he was good enough to win by executing a gameplan and minimising risk as much as possible. If you think otherwise I would love to know what your plan to defeat ABR was, because your team simply does not have the capability to win that matchup on the strengths of itself, only on the weaknesses of it's opponent (ie, abr misplaying).

That's not to say my builds are great, they're demonstrably not good at all. But you're acting like you have some secret strategy that you simply failed to execute, without admitting that the team you brought was not a good team. It's now lost 3 of the 4 matches it's been in during the playoffs, that's not the record of a good team.
 

leremyju

Banned deucer.
Ridiculous that people are advising Tele what teams to use and saying it is his fault. He is one of the greatest players ever, OLT is practically his tour and he is the Bloo slayer. Of course he brings a team that is designed to not lose, since his team is designed to win (aka not lose)

It's obvious only fatigue can stop him.
 
So he's stalling you out, boohoo, big deal. Is it a popular tactic? Hardly. Will you make a lot of friends with it? Nope, not at all. We're all with you until that point Tele. But is this tactic banned? In some way illegal? Not allowed in a certain metagame, tier or tournament format? It's not. ABR didn't violate any rules.
This is absolutely correct.
However, I think most will agree that it should not be.

IMO, this match really highlighted that PS should maybe have some "Max time" clause too, along with Battle timeouts, like VGC. Then have some win criteria when that gets achieved or auto-tie. I mean, by any plausible win criteria for this case (more pokémon alive, more total % HP) ABR would've won anyway, but likely in 1 hour tops rather than... some 7 or 8 hours? It would still be much better for all parts involved, I guess.
 
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