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Gen 3 so i've been doing quite well with this team after getting back after a few months.

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by dayren, Dec 23, 2008.

  1. Umby

    Umby I'm gonna bury you in the ground~
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    I look at it this way:

    Tauros can throw out CB Returns however it likes. Then two things can end up happening:

    A) It gets wise to your Metagross switch-ins and throws out an Earthquake.

    B) You try to predict that Tauros predicts you and try to switch to Gyarados.

    When the latter option is available and fails you, then that creates a problem, as losing one single pokemon can put a serious hole into your overall defenses. You shouldn't have to rely both on one Pokemon AND your opponent at the same time to keep an opposing Pokemon at bay. I've always believed in having some sort of backup/exit strategy when it comes to covering your weaknesses.

    Also note Explosion on Metagross. It's likely that Metagross can die before the CBer is done rampaging.
  2. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    SNorlax and Milotic can also take Tauros' CB hits well, so he still has an exit strategy. I'm pretty sure his Curselax, or perhaps a more defensive spread, can even set up Curse. This team can handle Tauros.

    It would be harder for your Pokemon to avoid death against CB Slaking imo, but Traunt then allows your team to take the offensive.
  3. Umby

    Umby I'm gonna bury you in the ground~
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    My post is more focused on him switching in on Tauros. It's likely that Snorlax can set up a Curse if it's already in, and Milotic I can only see sponging off enough of Tauros with Marvel Scale active (or a previously switched in Intimidate), but neither of them are your go-to guys for actually countering/dealing with Tauros.
  4. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Well the Point is, Tauros cant switch in on...anything. And if it comes in to revenge kill something. It can try to revenge kill milotic, but he can just scout with recovering first turn. Magneton has protect. Gyarados only if he hasnt DD'd. Snorlax can set up curse. etc.
  5. Lutra

    Lutra

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    Ok, so now we are all in agreement that everything is practically fine. Make sure to test out my ev spread for Lax though, it should be suited to this kind of team. If it isn't, then you're RMT is done. Go celebrate xd

    12 HP/ 152 Def/ 120 Atk/ 224 SpDef (Impish Nature)
  6. ABC-Trainer

    ABC-Trainer

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    Tauros was just one example. I think everybody knows that Tauros is very fragile and not the strongest CBer. The problem is that this team definitely has the potential to be wrecked by it. Intimidated Return is an almost definite 2hko on Gyara. Regular Return is also almost always a 2hko on Milotic (w/o marvel scale activated) and a guaranteed 2hko on Snorlax. After Metagross gets earthquaked once, nothing can switch into Tauros.

    Now if the team has this kind of problem with Tauros just imagine what will happen when it is against a CB snorlax who has a wider movepool and hits stuff a LOT harder. Or either of these guys packing Double-Edge.

    If you feel like you can handle it more power to you. But there is no denying that this team cannot handle normal STAB cbers to a certain degree. I'm not saying that it is a bad team and you seem to have tried to remedy your lackluster defenses by making Milotic and Snorlax extremely defensive already. But to me it looks like no matter what you do your team will have a certain apprehension towards strong physical attackers.
  7. Hot Nikkels

    Hot Nikkels

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    A) Why does he have to be the one to absorb sleep? You're already using good walls on the team that are better suited for that task. I don't think it's a good move for absorbing sleep when you have to go out of your way and make unsafe switchins in order to utilize said move, and then you're stuck with a CBer that you really have no control over. Using Sleep Talk without Rest puts your fate into the opponent's hands imo. Aside from that, 1 out of 4 total moves are unusable until he is put in this condition. That's 25% of your "resources" down the drain. What if you find him having to switch in on some other type of status like Para?

    B) When I send Hera out I'm generally not worried about Ghosts, Rock Slide will pretty much do it against a Gengar switchin, and noone would send in Dusclops on Hera unless they were sure it was EndRev with Salac I guess? And then they'd be switching in on a Substitute. Rock Slide and Megahorn will do the trick against both OU Ghosts, Gengar still doesn't like eating CB Megahorns despite the 4X resist, and Rock Slide should OHKO iirc.

    C) You say that prediction does not mean your team has a weakness, yet you use examples of good predictions in trying to explain the strengths of the team. Not all Milotics will just switch in and immediately Hypnosis, so your Hera will switch in on Surf, Ice Beam or probably something like Toxic (which while kind of cool at first, quickly becomes a pain in the ass), not a terribly safe task for somebody like CB Hera to attempt. Say Hypnosis does hit, then you're not even relying on prediction, experience and skill, but random chance :/ Even if Hypnosis misses, the Milotic user will know that you are holding a Hera (giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you hid Hera until now, which is pretty hard to do with a CBer), and that switchin will be that much harder to pull off next time.

    Pocket I just don't know what you mean when you say Lax can switch in on Tauros. Even a very defensive spread will be taking minimum 2 STAB CB Returns before getting 1 Curse in, or 1 Return into a switchin to a counter. EV spreads just don't seem like they'd much of a difference here, though I admit I'm too lazy to do any damage calc or anything.

    I hadn't really noticed this before but it really looks like Zapdos can give you some problems. Lax won't like switching into repeated Tbolts, and pray that those aren't backed with Spikes. tbh I'd fear RestTalk Zapdos over Tauros if I were you.
  8. dayren

    dayren

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    metal sound zapdos, really. sleep talk zapdos is usually more bulky.
  9. Heysup

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  10. Hot Nikkels

    Hot Nikkels

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    dunno if the quote is working or not, but you know what you said :)

    regarding the last sentence on my first paragraph, I meant him having to switch in on status before seeing a Sleep Powder/Hypnosis

    If switching Heracross in on Milotic hoping to get put to sleep is about risk/reward, then your reward isn't anywhere near guaranteed due to the inherintly random nature of SleepTalk.

    I'm a pretty avid Dusclops user and yes, anything Heracross throws out most certainly will hurt Dusclops unless it's one of those phys def variations that lets Starmie spin all over your team. I won't ever send in Clops on Hera unless I'm desperate. Same goes for Gengar, he can take what 3 CB Megahorns?

    I really can't agree that Hypnosis is an easy prediction. The reason most people send in something that doesn't take sleep is to bait out sleep. It's just not as cut and dry as "oh it's Lax easy sleep" (just occured to me that that might sound like I'm insulting you, just want you to know that's not the case). At the end of the day though, arguing over prediction is as pointless as trying to predict :)

    Again though, you're using prediction as a point toward your argument when you discounted the opponent's prediction earlier. Assuming you're better than the opponent in terms of prediction is...well, no good.

    Lax loves tanking Tbolts? Maybe within the first 5 turns of the game or if Lax can switch in on like 4/6 of the opp's team for easy Rests, other than that 330 sp attack Zapdos doesn't mind playing patiently waiting for Lax to get make one too many switches. Lax can switch in on Tbolts yes, Lax cannot tank Tbolts into the late game, however. Doesn't matter what Zapdos' set is, even RestTalkers can pump up sp attack at the expense of defenses or speed.
  11. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    What my point is, sleeping is more logic than prediction, for example:
    Gyarados comes in on milotic, now the milotic user can either predict a switch to something to absorb sleep, sleep the gyarados, or switch to another counter. The latter two options are more ideal for the opponent to use, as milotics SAtk isnt anything to brag about, especially if he expects a common sleep talker like Zapdos. However; conveniently those two options are ideal for sending heracross out because the thing that is sent out can likely be hurt by heracross, or heracross gets guts activation and sleep clause from sleep, allowing gyarados to set up freely.



    Zapdos dies to heracross, snorlax and pretty much anything besides gyarados and milotic can make it rest, allowing for one of those 2 counters to come in on the rest, or if he doesnt predict, he can come in and will not get hurt 66.7% of the time.
  12. Umby

    Umby I'm gonna bury you in the ground~
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    Sleeping is pretty straightforward. You use an attack and hope it hits.

    Putting something to sleep in hope that it prevents something from hindering your team can require prediction and weighing the risk/reward.

    Also, since when does Milotic try and outpredict a standard Gyarados with Hypnosis? Milotic is either going to be Ice Beaming or getting out of there. The only reason Milotic should even think about Hypnosis vs Gyara is if he's been switching out all game, due to Taunt, and predicts that one turn where Gyarados foregoes Taunt and goes straight to DD.

    Also you're pitting Pokemon in 1 on 1 situations to make your point. The reasoning behind Zapdos causing problems is how he must switch into it. Zapdos itself will find safe switch ins commonly through Gyarados, and sometimes Metagross, therefore he puts you into that particular situation, which is how we're discussing the matter.
  13. dayren

    dayren

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    in response to the zapdos problem, i've made snorlax careful, and slapped on return over body slam to compensate for the power.
  14. Lolcat

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    Dude, I actually LOVE your idea of using pursuit and magneton on the same team. To be honest i kind of stole your idea and tried to make it work but it does have one problem: Status. A lot of times gengar will willowisp or hypnosis and IF it hits it screws up metagross so i put healbell celery on the team and it worked nicely.

    Not sure if you want to try it but maybe fit Celery in one on of those water pokemon slots (helps for some more zapdos coverage also) so you'll have:

    Curselax
    Metagross(pursuit)
    Magneton
    Gyarados/Milotic
    Celebi
    Heracross counter/Tyranitar counter (depending on water pokemon you choose).

    I also tried it with TTAr since he gets STAB on his pursuit but sandstream does sort of mess with it a little bit and Metagross has better defensive typing.

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