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Spikes and Toxic Spikes in BW NU [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2] [Done]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Jukain, Oct 15, 2012.

  1. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    <h2>Overview</h2>

    <p>When looking at the NU tier, a question that is often asked is "what do I use for Spikes and Toxic Spikes?" Most Spikes and Toxic Spikes users reside in the upper tiers, but there are still NU teams that want and benefit from them, especially stall teams. The setters of Spikes and Toxic Spikes are just that, as they have little use outside of setting them up. However, the reality is that Spikes, and to a lesser extent Toxic Spikes, are amazing in NU, thanks to a general lack of Rapid Spin users outside of Armaldo and most Pokemon being grounded, with the only common grounded Poison-types being Roselia, Garbodor, and Skuntank. Roselia and Garbodor, the premier users of Spikes in NU, are viable almost completely because of this. The use of either form of Spikes might seem impractical with their relative lack of users, but in actuality, they are probably among the most useful pieces of hardware to have in NU.</p>

    <h2>Spikes</h2>

    <p>Spikes is perhaps one of the most useful moves for any team, weakening the checks of offensive Pokemon and providing some much-needed residual damage for stall. Fortunately, Spikes is blessed with a few users that, while not screaming "amazing Pokemon, must use," are certainly decent Pokemon. Unlike Toxic Spikes, your options aren't Garbodor and... nothing; rather, there's three solid setters and a decent niche one. Additionally, Spikes don't have to worry about Garbodor, Skuntank, and Roselia clearing it from the field.</p>

    <p>The best setter of Spikes in NU is arguably Roselia. It does have its downfalls, with an unfortunate Flying-type weakness and physical frailty, but overall, there is no questioning its dominance. Roselia's main selling points as a Spiker are its offensive proficiency and great special bulk; for example, it can take every attack from Ludicolo other than Ice Beam. The standard Roselia usually has Giga Drain, some Hidden Power, Spikes, and a filler move, which can be pretty much whatever you want. One particularly good option is Rest, since with Natural Cure, Roselia can simply use Rest and get back to full health, switch out, and come back in with a vengeance. Backtracking a bit, Roselia's offensive ability allows it to power through most Pokemon that do not invest heavily in their Special Defense. This gives it favorable match-ups versus numerous foes. It can set up Spikes reliably against much of the metagame, but against teams that contain Pokemon it cannot set up Spikes against, it is strapped for options. While Roselia isn't quite as reliable as Garbodor, it still has an offensive presence and high special bulk, which give it an edge.</p>

    <p>Your other best option is Garbodor, who boasts many assets to secure this position. Its Poison typing and decent bulk allows it to check Fighting-types and other physical attacking foes of resisted attacking types, such as Choice-locked Sawk, Pinsir that lack Earthquake, Cacturne, and Gurdurr. Many walls are vulnerable to being set up on by Garbodor as well, including Alomomola, Miltank, Lickilicky, Bastiodon, Probopass, Weezing, opposing Garbodor, Tangela, Cradily, and Roselia. Aftermath, while not the most useful or coveted of abilities, when paired with a Rocky Helmet, enables Garbodor to deal significant damage to most physical attackers. Toxic can be layered on top of this damage to create a destructive cycle that leaves most enemies picking at their wounds. To put the icing on the cake, Garbodor learns Pain Split, which provides beloved recovery. Although this will not be sufficient against every team and every powerhouse, bulkier teams and teams that lack a clear hard hitter will crumple before Garbodor as it sets up three layers of Spikes, in addition to giving Garbodor a tool to stick around even until late-game and set Spikes up more than once if necessary. Garbodor is by far one of the best Spikers sitting in the trenches of NU, so if Spikes are what you want, trash is the type of Pokemon you should get.</p>

    <p>Aside from Garbodor, there are few viable Spikers. Cacturne is the most notable one, boasting a high base 115 Attack stat and STAB priority in Sucker Punch, allowing it to take on both offensive and supporting roles. On the other hand, Cacturne is quite frail, meaning it must rely on its offenses to force its opponents out and seize every opportunity it gets to set up Spikes. Cacturne also has Water Absorb, giving it an immunity to Water-type attacks; however, this does not afford Cacturne many extra opportunities to set up, as most Pokemon that have a Water-type attack as their STAB can threaten Cacturne with their coverage moves. Swords Dance complements Sucker Punch quite nicely, giving Cacturne free turns to set up Spikes on the switches it inevitably forces with the threat of boosted attacks. Cacturne sets up Spikes primarily by taking advantage of the switches it forces, and because of Water Absorb, can set up Spikes on Alomomola without having to fear a burn. Really though, this is all great, but this information is immaterial when compared to the importance of item choice. There are two items that Cacturne can use well&mdash;Focus Sash and Dark Gem. Focus Sash is the accepted standard, giving Cacturne an easy button that guarantees one layer of Spikes if not more in the lead position, or with some Rapid Spin support or skillful offensive pressure at any time during a match. Destiny Bond can be used alongside Focus Sash to make the most out of Cacturne's low Speed stat, as it will force out all opponents after they have broken Cacturne's Focus Sash and allow Cacturne to curse them with another layer of Spikes. This set is especially good because it buys Cacturne the free turns it needs to sweep. Dark Gem provides a power boost to Sucker Punch, which makes it a menace for offensive teams to face, as Ludicolo, among others, will always be OHKOed by Sucker Punch after Stealth Rock and/or Spikes damage. Be sure to select Cacturne for its merits outside of setting up Spikes; Roselia and Garbodor are the better "throw it on a team and go to town" Spikers, but Cacturne is a stellar Pokemon even without Spikes taken into account. In a nutshell, Cacturne is an offensive Pokemon first and a Spiker next, so be sure that Roselia or Garbodor couldn't better fill its position before using it. For some teams, this combination is invaluable, so you shouldn't have too much trouble doing so.</p>

    <p>Glalie is decent on paper; base 80 in all stats isn't particularly great, but it can set up Spikes and learns Taunt to prevent opposing entry hazards. It even has Explosion to keep up offensive momentum and is the only Spiker that isn't set up on by Altaria. However, Glalie is a piece of rubbish (and not the good Garbodor kind) beyond setting up one or two layers of Spikes, so really don't use it unless you have an obsession with icy life forms. Maractus is a similar situation, bringing even less to the table than its literally "spiky" compatriot. Although it can set up both Spikes and Sunny Day (with Chlorophyll doubling its Speed I might add), which makes it a seemingly perfect candidate for sun teams, it lies in the shadow of Cacturne. Its inability to take a hit and a barren movepool are other red lights saying "don't use me, I suck." On the flip side, there is Omanyte. Omanyte has access to all three entry hazards, which gives it a solid niche, and has great bulk with Eviolite. It's not deadweight either, making a solid check to Braviary, Swellow, Skuntank, physical Drifblim, Dragon Dance Lapras, Carracosta, and Rapidash lacking SolarBeam. It can even go on the offensive with its decent Special Attack stat and lay waste to many Pokemon while setting up Spikes. Abysmal Speed isn't helpful, but its ability to lay Spikes repeatedly is invaluable on teams reliant on Spikes for success.</p>

    <p>For the slow ones, use Roselia, Garbodor, or Cacturne in almost every case, usually the former. Other Spikers are trash and shouldn't be used, ever (besides Omanyte, who is niche). It is imperative that you not take the stupid route if you wish to succeed period, end of conversation, whatever phrase you prefer that represents closure.</p>

    <p>Many people believe that you need some special reason to use Spikes; don't listen to them, Spikes are good on pretty much every team that can find room for them. Without Spikes in play, Tangela and Alomomola can waltz in and out of play freely, living forever to be horrendous nuisances due to being able to fall back on Regenerator whenever they lose health and come back in unscathed. Not with Spikes, however, since in conjunction with Stealth Rock they will give these popular walls a net <em>loss</em> of HP! Offensive Pokemon love to tear apart every Pokemon in their path, but without the extra damage from Spikes it is more difficult to do so, not to mention the plethora of OHKOs and 2HKOs they secure for multiple Pokemon. Pokemon attempting to Toxic stall or to pull off some other strategy of the like have a much easier time with more residual damage aiding their efforts. There are even some gimmicks, such as Riolu's Copycat + Roar strategy, that you can use and are aided by Spikes. If you can fit Spikes on your team, do it; they're useful for pretty much every strategy imaginable.</p>

    <h2>Toxic Spikes</h2>

    <p>Toxic Spikes are much worse than Spikes, mainly due to the omnipresence of Roselia, Garbodor and Skuntank. Regardless, they're still useful, being extraordinarily helpful for stall and beneficial for most sweepers. There aren't exactly a ton of Toxic Spikes users, but hey, there's still Roselia and Garbodor and that's all that matters. For a time, Amoonguss dominated the NU tier, but its rise to RU catapulted the viability of Toxic Spikes&mdash;or so one might think. NU is filled to the brim with powerful attackers that can muscle through almost all of their so-called "counters." This means Toxic Spikes just aren't needed most of the time. This simple fact combined with the constant increase in Roselia and Garbodor usage keeps Toxic Spikes down in the abyss of those not loved. Oftentimes, setting them up is a simple waste of turns that could be used doing more important things. They're still great as a tool for residual damage, but they're not what they used to be and not what they are in other tiers.</p>

    <p>The second reason for the obscurity of Toxic Spikes is the lack of users. If you're not using Garbodor or Roselia (who are prioritizing setting up Spikes because they are so much more useful), you're kind of stuck. I mean, they're amazing Pokemon, but if you can't fit them in/don't want to use them, again, you're kind of stuck. Omanyte is great too but struggles to fit Toxic Spikes into its moveset because it then has to forfeit another, usually more important, move. There are 3 other usable (not saying viable) Toxic Spikes users. Beedrill boasts access to U-turn to bring a teammate in free, Knock Off to neuter Eviolite users, and Pursuit to trap spinblockers, which is particularly useful if Beedrill is paired with a spinner. It's <em>okay</em>, but it's really not a Pokemon you want to use. Ariados is another; even two priority options in Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak with a decent Attack stat fail to make up for its horrid defenses and Speed. Whirlipede holds the title of MWB (Most Worthless Bug), having no use outside of setting up Toxic Spikes. That's it for Toxic Spikes users; hopefully you can see now why they're rare.</p>

    <p>Remember when I said with Spikes that you have no need to have a specific way to take advantage of them? Throw that out of the window for Toxic Spikes; they're not good enough to just be thrown on a team without a great need for them (or Garbodor). Bulk Up Braviary and similar physical sweepers with Substitute are excellent utilizers, as Toxic Spikes allow them to break through their arch-nemesis, Alomomola. Stall enjoys Toxic Spikes to add to its pile of residual damage. In all actuality, you might even have Toxic Spikes on your team quite often, just not see it get used much, as Garbodor often carries it but in many cases doesn't get around to setting them up.</p>

    <h2>Fitting Spikes and Toxic Spikes Onto Teams</h2>

    <p>I'm going to take this opportunity to explain team types that are centered around Spikes. First and foremost is Spikes-stacking offense, which revolves around getting Spikes up quickly and capitalizing on them with veritable offensive nukes. It is best to have a Pokemon that can get up Spikes reliably and maintain momentum, so Roselia or Cacturne is recommended. Choice Band Braviary is one of the top Pokemon to take advantage of Spikes, utilizing them to do such a nefarious deed as breaking through Alomomola. It can force many switches and even use U-turn in order to bring out a Pokemon that might force out a check or counter, thus spreading Spikes damage. Stall is another team type that makes good use of Spikes, and in fact requires them to succeed because of the invaluable residual damage that they provide. It is wise to use a Spiker with the ability to survive for a long period of time; defensive Garbodor is the best choice for this reason. Additionally, stall teams often carry phazers, such as Altaria, Bastiodon, Lairon, and Lapras, that shuffle around the opposing team, spreading Spikes damage. When running Spikes on stall, it is imperative to use a spinblocker to keep them up as long as possible. This role is best filled by Golurk or Misdreavus, the only spinblockers available in NU that have much in the way of bulk. At this point, you might be wondering—where do the other Spikers fit in? Well, Glalie is poor and Maractus is 99% trash, leaving Omanyte, which would be used for type synergy purposes where it fits better than Roselia, Garbodor, or Cacturne. If you're looking to make use of Spikes, these two team types are a good base to build from.</p>

    <p>Outside of using Spikes, you should consider supporting the Spikes themselves. This is best done with a spinblocker. It's not very difficult to fit a spinblocker on a team with the many solid Ghost-types available in NU, and the opportunity cost of setting up Spikes becomes paramount when you have to set them up more than once. The star of the show is Golurk, who has decent bulk, a very high base 124 Attack stat, and a useful secondary Ground typing. It matches up well with the large majority of the NU tier that cannot hit it super effectively. Golurk also demolishes both Armaldo and Torkoal, the best Rapid Spin users in NU. Just don't switch Golurk directly into Torkoal, as Torkoal OHKOes Golurk after a Shell Smash boost. You should also scout for Aqua Tail if facing an Armaldo. Almost dead-even with Golurk is everyone's favorite spirit, Misdreavus. Misdreavus is Golurk's defensive equivalent, boasting an immunity to Ground-type attacks, solid bulk, and a movepool that contains a multitude of useful support moves such as Heal Bell. It is a 100% counter Armaldo, NU's premier Rapid Spin user, so long as it isn't a Swords Dance variant with Life Orb or Lum Berry. It also has Will-O-Wisp to burn Armaldo and is immune to the Toxic often carried by support variants. Additionally, it can take advantage of Torkoal's low Special Defense with its base 85 Special Attack Shadow Ball. Lastly, Frillish can be used if and only if it is put on a stall team, as it has zero offensive presence, but it walls Torkoal for ages and is able to use Recover to do so multiple times. Now, all of these Pokemon are great, but NU Rapid Spin users are better than the Ghost-types. They all have their own respective ways around spinblockers, so you're just going have to accept that sometimes your Spikes are going to be spun away. For this reason, it is imperative that you keep the pressure on opposing spinners, limiting their opportunities to switch in lest the Spikes you fought hard to set up be negated. Keep this in mind when going for a spinblocker and you'll be sure to succeed.</p>

    <h2>How to Deal with Spikes and Toxic Spikes</h2>

    <p>Enough about how great Spikes and how mediocre Toxic Spikes are; you need to know how to beat them. I've alluded to these threats throughout this letter. Rapid Spin users are the most surefire way to deal with Spikes; you take them away, and if your opponent wants them back they have to set them up again. SMASHKOAL, which is the popular name for Shell Smash Torkoal, is your best bet. While a weakness to Stealth Rock and vulnerability to both forms of Spikes might turn you off, realize that all the spinblockers I mentioned in the Spikes section can be beaten after a Shell Smash; every single one of them. It can just set up and spin really reliably between STAB Fire Blast and Earth Power or Hidden Power Grass. If it is unboosted against SubDisable Haunter, however, it will be unable to spin. Armaldo's the most common spinner, but it has trouble against pretty much all of the common spinblockers, even with Swords Dance, and is also weak to Stealth Rock and vulnerable to both forms of Spikes. However, it does demolish Garbodor and Cacturne with the right offensive moves and can take some pretty powerful attacks. Wartortle is a pretty cool spinner as well, boasting a decent amount of bulk and the coveted combination of Foresight and Rapid Spin.</p>

    <p>Okay, maybe the relatively pitiful showing of spinners in NU dissuades you from using them. No one can blame you. SMASHKOAL is the best one and it's not the easiest Pokemon to fit on a team. The only other decent spinner is offensive Armaldo, who has the same issue. As such, you might want a Taunt user. Skuntank is the only one that's particularly good, and it fairs pretty well against Roselia, Garbodor, and Cacturne. Magic Bounce reflects entry hazards, and NU has a Pokemon with that ability in Natu. Natu is impossible to set up Spikes against, as it can just set up screens while Cacturne tries to Sucker Punch. Its only weakness in this role is against Garbodor that carry Rock Blast, as well as the fact that it really isn't the best Pokemon out there. Toxic Spikes has one big issue that you can easily take advantage of, and that's Poison-types absorbing them. Skuntank and Garbodor are fairly easy to fit on a team. If none of these options float your boat, you can always just keep up the offensive pressure, consistently making correct predictions (mainly double switches) that make it difficult for Spikers to get in freely and set up Spikes. If they do get set up and you are left without any of these countermeasures, the best thing you can do is to attempt to minimize their impact. This means getting in the Pokemon that you cannot afford to have badly poisoned when there is only one layer of Toxic Spikes up. This means minimizing switching into grounded Pokemon. If worst comes worst, smart play will usually be able to save you from any major issues with either form of Spikes.</p>

    <h2>Conclusion</h2>

    <p>Go out there and try Spikes and Toxic Spikes! There's enough viable users if you want them, so don't be scared away when told that NU has nothing to use them, for that is, simply put, not the case. Find the many uses of the entry hazards and put them on your offensive teams, your stall teams, and everything in between. Show the NU tier what Spikes and Toxic Spikes can do, surprise your opponents, screw over strategies, and even frustrate them with Riolu. It's easy; get some of these wonderful entry hazards and watch your games become much easier!</p>
  2. Gengan

    Gengan

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    Glalie isn't NFE so why did you say it was? Glalie does not evolve into Froslass. Only Female Snorunt can evolve into Froslass.

    Also this is a grammar note but you use obviously quite a bit. Try to avoid repetition.
  3. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    thanks gengan. i fixed the first part, just an absentminded mistake. the use of obviously has been cut down to only once.

    EDIT: btw i put in paragraph tags because i know i'll need them, should i put in header tags or is it fine for now?
  4. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    I talked to Zeb and he said he gave you approval for this a while ago. Make sure NU QC looks it over and approves, and then move it along to GP~
  5. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    You talk about the attributes of each Pokemon with Spikes / Toxic Spikes. That is great and all, but there is a lack of talk about how they set it up and what they set it up on. I also think you should just talk about Garbodor / Cacturne. Glalie and Omanyte should just get short mentions. The rest of the Pokemon are irrelevant and this article would be a much more useful information source if you just talked about the good users of the two hazard moves.

    I have a few beefs with the Toxic Spikes area. First, you do not even talk about what they are useful for. You mention that there are Pokemon that can capitalize on, but you do not talk about what it is useful for. For example, I find that offense teams are so much easier to handle when you set up even a single layer of Toxic Spikes against them. Really, Toxic Spikes are tools that are helpful against the aforementioned offense teams, but they are not something you should build a team around. You use them occasionally, but you do not rely on them. That is not to say you should not use Pokemon that can capitalize on Toxic Spikes being laid down.

    You should talk about Emboar in the last paragraph in the Toxic Spikes section. It can scare away all of the common grounded Poison-types.

    SubBU Braviary with Toxic Spikes support is good, but not for the reasons you talk about. It can already get past Alomomola. There is no specific example that Toxic Spikes helps SubBU Braviary beat besides Ampharos. It has the general utility of wearing Pokemon down while you are boosting or healing or whatever. It makes so many situations that much easier. I also think you should mention defensive SubRoost Articuno as a Pokemon that capitalizes on Toxic Spikes being laid down. Articuno's job is made much easier when it does not have to Toxic everything. Also, it can easily get past the Flying-types that are immune to Toxic Spikes as well as being able to set up on Amoonguss.

    In the Overview, you miss Garbodor as one of the examples of common grounded Poison-types.

    Under Conclusion, there is a statement that really irks me. "It's easy; slap on a Spikes and Toxic Spikes user and watch the wins come!" -- This is most definitely not the case. You do not just throw Spikes / Toxic Spikes on a team. They really are not amazing in NU, just good. I understand that this was an exaggeration but this is just a bit too much.

    Cheers :toast:
  6. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    DTC I will get to your post when I work on the Toxic Spikes section (which I intend on doing very soon) but what this post is for is to show the update to the Spikes section. For comparison's sake, here are the two versions of the section:

    old (open)

    <p>Spikes is perhaps one of the most useful moves for any team, weakening the checks of offensive Pokemon and providing some much-needed residual damage for stall. Fortunately, Spikes is blessed with a few users that while they don't scream "amazing Pokemon must use", they are certainly decent Pokemon. This is a major advantage over Toxic Spikes, which has few users, mostly NFEs at that. Additionally, Spikes don't have to worry about Amoonguss and Skuntank absorbing them.</p>

    <p>The first and best setter of Spikes is Garbodor, who has a useful defensive typing that allows it to check Fighting-types, decent bulk, and solid offenses along with a wide offensive movepool that includes gems like Gunk Shot, Giga Drain, Drain Punch, and Seed Bomb. While it isn't exactly stellar offensively, it gets the job done and can beat offensive Armaldo, NU's best Rapid Spin user. Additionally, it can deter setup sweepers with Clear Smog. Its Speed stat is high enough to outspeed most walls and common sweepers. It even has Toxic Spikes, making it doubly useful. Do you want Spikes? Use Garbodor, it's that simple.</p>

    Moving on, there's a few other options. Cacturne is the most notable one, boasting a high base 115 Attack stat and STAB priority in Sucker Punch, making it a double threat, both offensively and support-wise. Cacturne also has Water Absorb, giving it an immunity to Water-type attacks. Glalie is another choice; its even base 80 in all of its stats isn't particularly great, but it sets up Spikes and has Taunt to prevent opposing entry hazards. Yet another option is Maractus, who's Speed, courtesy of Chlorophyll, is doubled in sun. This allows Maractus to set up Spikes quickly, and although its bulk is mediocre, its base 106 Special Attack makes up for it.</p>

    <p>There's also some NFEs to choose from. Glalie has already been mentioned, but there are two more of note, namely Omanyte and Whirlipede. Omanyte has access to all three entry hazards, which gives it a solid niche, and has great bulk with Eviolite. Whirlipede is quite bulky with Eviolite and has Toxic Spikes as well. While neither are amazing Pokemon, their great bulk and access to multiple forms of entry hazards makes them viable choices regardless.</p>

    <p>If you're using Spikes, it is imperative that you have a way to properly abuse them. Offensive Pokemon, such as Braviary and Samurott, love Spikes to weaken their counters, specifically Bulk Up Braviary, who absolutely loves Spikes in general so that it can defeat its usual counters. Spikes-stacking offense is also a viable strategy, and Spikes are the focal point of it. Stall teams require Spikes to wear down their opposition, as they usually lack any other form of offense. There's also perhaps the most annoying little aura guardian in all of Pokemon, Riolu, which utilizes its infamous Copycat + Roar strategy best when it has Spikes to abuse them with. It's important to put some thought into putting Spikes on a team—if you don't need them or heavily benefit from them, don't use them, use a better Pokemon in that slot taken up by a Spikes user. Consider running Golurk if using Spikes, as it can defeat Armaldo and Torkoal, the two most common Rapid Spin users, and Spikes are difficult enough to set up once, let alone twice.</p>


    new (open)

    <p>Spikes is perhaps one of the most useful moves for any team, weakening the checks of offensive Pokemon and providing some much-needed residual damage for stall. Fortunately, Spikes is blessed with a few users that while they don't scream "amazing Pokemon must use", they are certainly decent Pokemon. This is a major advantage over Toxic Spikes, which has few users, mostly NFEs at that. Additionally, Spikes don't have to worry about Amoonguss and Skuntank absorbing them.</p>

    <p>The first and best setter of Spikes is Garbodor, who has a useful defensive typing that allows it to check Fighting-types, decent bulk, and solid offenses along with a wide offensive movepool that includes many gems, such as STAB Gunk Shot, Giga Drain, Drain Punch, and Seed Bomb. While it isn't exactly stellar offensively, it gets the job done and can beat offensive Armaldo, NU's best Rapid Spin user. Additionally, it can deter setup sweepers with Clear Smog. Its Speed stat is high enough to outspeed most walls and common sweepers. It even has Toxic Spikes, making it doubly useful. It's also got Aftermath for an ability, which dishes out pain if Garbodor is KOed. Do you want Spikes? Use Garbodor, it's that simple.</p>

    <p>Moving on, there's a few other options. Cacturne is the most notable one, boasting a high base 115 Attack stat and STAB priority in Sucker Punch, making it a double threat, both offensively and support-wise. Cacturne also has Water Absorb, giving it an immunity to Water-type attacks. It can even boost its Attack stat with Swords Dance, giving it sweeping potential and forcing many switches, which creates opportunity to set up Spikes. Alternatively, it can go with Substitute, which eases prediction and allows it to set up Spikes quite reliably. If using Cacturne, place emphasis on its offensive capabilities, as otherwise you're better off using another Spiker. Glalie is another option; its even base 80 in all stats isn't particularly great, but it sets up Spikes and has Taunt to prevent opposing entry hazards. Taunt also gives it the ability to set up Spikes on Amoonguss's Spore, something that only Substitute Cacturne can boast. Glalie also has Explosion to keep up offensive momentum and is the only Spiker that isn't set up on by Altaria. When you combine this with a Focus Sash, Glalie will set up 2-3 layers of Spikes almost every match.</p>

    <p>Yet another option is Maractus, who's Speed, courtesy of Chlorophyll, is doubled in sun. This allows Maractus to set up Spikes quickly, and although its bulk is mediocre, its base 106 Special Attack makes up for it. Maractus is an excellent Pokemon to set the stage for sun sweepers, such as Exeggutor and Charizard, both setting up sun and entry hazards for them. It's even got decent recovery in STAB Giga Drain. While it lay seem like just another useless NFE. Omanyte has access to all three entry hazards, which gives it a solid niche, and has great bulk with Eviolite. It's not dead weight either, making a great check to Braviary and Swellow and switch-in to Cinccino's Tail Slap. Skuntank, SMASHKOAL, physical Drifblim, Dragon Dance Lapras, Carracosta, and Rapidash lacking Solarbeam are other Pokemon that Omanyte does well against. It can even go offensive with its decent Special Attack stat and lay waste to many Pokemon while setting up Spikes. Abysmal Speed isn't helpful, but its ability to repeatedly set up Spikes is invaluable on teams reliant on Spikes for success.</p>

    <p>At this point, you know the Spikes users, but you should also know when to use them. If your team is reliant on getting up Spikes quickly, Garbodor or Glalie is recommended, as they have enough bulk and Speed to get the job done. However, neither of them are staying alive for very long, and getting up 3 layers of Spikes more than once is unlikely. For this reason, Omanyte is the best choice on teams that are so reliant on Spikes, such as stall teams, that having the ability to set them up more than once is required. However, as to not be misleading, you should definitely note that defensive Garbodor can set up Spikes multiple times, also making a good Toxic Spikes absorber, but it overlaps with Amoonguss, which almost all stall teams use. Cacturne is a good choice for teams that are very offensive, as its own offensive capabilities allow it to both sweep and set up Spikes. If you haven't noticed yet, I left out Maractus, and that's because it should be used solely on sun teams.</p>

    <p>If you're using Spikes, it is imperative that you have a way to properly abuse them. Offensive Pokemon, such as Braviary and Samurott, love Spikes to weaken their counters, specifically Bulk Up Braviary, who absolutely loves Spikes in general so that it can defeat its usual counters. There's also perhaps the most annoying little aura guardian in all of Pokemon, Riolu, which utilizes its infamous Copycat + Roar strategy best when it has Spikes to abuse them with. Note that Riolu isn't all that effective because of the prevalence of priority in NU.It's important to put some thought into putting Spikes on a team—if you don't need them or heavily benefit from them, don't use them, use a better Pokemon in that slot taken up by a Spikes user.</p>

    <p>I'm going to take this opportunity to explain team types that are centered around Spikes. First and foremost is Spikes-stacking offense, which revolves around getting Spikes up quickly and abusing them with veritable offensive nuke. It is best to have a Pokemon that can get up Spikes reliably and maintain momentum, so offensive Garbodor, Glalie, or Substitute Cacturne is recommended for such teams. Cinccino and Choice Band Braviary are two of the best abusers of Spikes, utilizing them to do such nefarious deeds as breaking Amoonguss for the former and breaking Alomomola for the latter. They force many switches and the latter even has U-turn in order to bring out a Pokemon that might force out a check or counter, thus spreading Spikes damage. Stall is another team type that makes good use of Spikes, and in fact requires them to succeed because of the invaluable residual damage that they provide. It is wise to use a Spikes user with the ability to survive for a long period of time; Omanyte is a good choice for this role. Additionally, stall teams often carry phazers, such as Altaria, Bastiodon, Lairon, and Lapras, that shuffle around the opposing team, spreading Spikes damage. When running Spikes on stall, it ia imperative to use a spinblocker to keep them up as long as possible. This role is best filled by Golurk, the only decent spinblocker available in NU. If you're looking to abuse Spikes, these two team types are a good base to build from.</p>

    <p>Outside of abusing Spikes, you should consider supporting the Spikes themselves. This is best done with a spinblocker. It's not very difficult to fit a spinblocker onto a team with the many solid Ghost-types available in NU, and the opportunity cost of setting up Spikes becomes paramount when you have to set them up more than once. The star of the show is Golurk, who has decent bulk, a very high base 124 Attack stat, and a useful second typing in Ground. It can even sweep with Rock Polish, and matches up well with the large majority of the NU tier that cannot hit it super effectively. Golurk demolishes both Golurk and Torkoal, the best Rapid Spin users in NU. Almost dead even with Golurk is everyone's favorite spirit, Misdreavus. Misdreavus is Golurk's defensive equivalent, boasting immunities to Toxic and Ground-types, solid bulk, and a movepool that contains a multitude of useful support moves. It is a 100% failsafe counter to Armaldo, NU's premier Rapid Spin user, having Will-O-Wisp to burn it and being immune to the Toxic often carried by support variants. Additionally it can take advantage of Torkoal's low Special Defense stat with base 85 Special Attack Shadow Ball. Next up is Haunter. It's very frail, so switching it on moves that are not Rapid Spin, Toxic, a recovery move, or similar support moves is not recommended, but it can switch into Armaldo's X-Scissor and hits hard with base 115 Special Attack. Drifblim is yet another great Ghost-type, and it can utilize the free turn it gets from switching into Rapid Spin to set up with Calm Mind or activate Unburden with Acrobatics. While Lampent straight-up loses to Armaldo, it takes a dump all over Torkoal and hits fairly hard woth STAB Flamethrower/Fire Blast. Lastly, Frillish can be used if and only if it is put on a stall team, as it has zero offensive presence but walls Torkoal and Armaldo for ages, even having the ability to burn them and being able to use Recover to do so many times.</p>


    As you can see, a TON of work was done on the Spikes section. Here's the basic list of changes:

    - As far as the Pokemon, I removed Whirlipede since it doesn't actually ever use Spikes. I expanded about each and every Pokemon with discussion of their unique moves and how they are commonly used.
    - Every Pokemon has mentions of what it can set up on.
    - I added when to use different Spikers, playstyles centered around Spikes, and spinblockers (which are very useful with Spikes).

    DTC, to be quite frank, I disagree with your opinion on only talking about Garbodor and Cacturne and giving Glalie and Omanyte short mentions. Maractus has a niche with sunny Spikes. Read the expanded descriptions; those explain a bit more.

    I added Garbodor to grounded Poison-types in the Overview (like you said DTC).

    Also, the titles of sections are in header tags.

    Cheers.

    EDIT: btw, Amarillo gave me some help on irc, so props to him!
  7. marilli

    marilli
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    The thing with 'sunny spikes' is that Sunny Day teams really don't need additional power trying to KO stuff. I've rarely seen people who go "oh man, only if my Charizard could hit just a bit harder..." Most weather teams are really fast paced offensive, and they're just better off setting the weather, SR and just attacking. Anything else is, arguably, wasted turns.

    But I have no qualms mentioning it given that it's pretty clear that Garbodor / Cacturne sits high above all other spikers.

    Misdreavus is not immune to toxic. Maybe say it has Heal Bell, but heal belling wastes a turn and is nothing like an immunity.
  8. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    why do I always seem to think that missy is immune to toxic... >_<

    fixed, thanks amarillo.
  9. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    This looks good to me now.

    [qc]1/3[/qc]

    I guess
  10. FLCL

    FLCL
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    "Golurk demolishes both Golurk and Torkoal, the best Rapid Spin users in NU."

    Did you mean Armaldo?

    Also, mention how you shouldn't switch Golurk directly into Torkoal since it can simply Shell Smash and OHKO you.

    Other than that this looks good.

    [qc]2/3[/qc]
  11. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    • Mention Torkoal as a Rapid Spin user alongside Armaldo in the 1st paragraph and maybe Wartortle as well
    • When listing Garbodor's main moves add in Rock Blast
    • "Grass-types, such as Amoonguss and Exeggutor, can be set up on." ~Remove Amoonguss from this Cacturne cannot set up on Amoonguss for its life and even Eggy is shaky, at least the Specs set.
    • "Taunt also gives it the ability to set up Spikes on Amoonguss's Spore, something that only Substitute Cacturne can boast." ~remove saying that Cacturne can do this as Amoonguss will be using Sludge Bomb on it
    • There is a bit too much about Maractus, who isn't very relevant at all. "and a resistance to Grass-type attacks allows it to switch in on Choice Specs Exeggutor and set up Spikes." ~Maractus is actually OHKOed by Specs Leaf Storm after Stealth Rock
    • Mention Sawsbuck as a great abuser of Spikes as it has awesome synergy with Garbodor and with Spikes can even OHKO Defensive Amoonguss at +2
    • "Toxic Spikes are definitely worse than Spikes" ~This is way to blunt. TSpikes are not as useful as Spikes but not enough to say definitely worse
    • It(Golurk) can even sweep with Rock Polish ~Nobody uses this
    • "Golurk demolishes both Golurk and Torkoal, the best Rapid Spin users in NU" ~You mean Armaldo as well as Golurk is not the safest switch into either. Armaldo OHKOes with +2 Aqua Tail and Torkoal OHKOes after a Shell Smash
    • "While Lampent straight-up loses to Armaldo, it takes a dump all over Torkoal and hits fairly hard woth STAB Flamethrower/Fire Blast" ~Lampent is not dumping all over Torkoal when most Smashkoals use Earth Power
    • "Frillish can be used if and only if it is put on a stall team, as it has zero offensive presence but walls Torkoal and Armaldo for ages" ~SD LO Armaldo actually OHKOes with Stone Edge
    • Mention that Misdreavus loses to Lum/Life Orb SD Armaldo
    • "It's not dead weight either, making a great check to Braviary and Swellow and switch-in to Cinccino's Tail Slap. Skuntank, SMASHKOAL" ~Omanyte is not a Smashkoal counter, they will either have Earth Power or Hidden Power Grass. It switching into Cinccino is not reliable either unless you try to use it as a pivot.

      Fix all of this and I guess...
      [QC]3/3[/QC]

    Habits never die with FLCL, he quit QC like 2 days ago. So this is the official 2/3 :) apparently he decided to randomly rejoin like 10 seconds ago
  12. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    Thanks a bunch EBeast, changes implemented. btw, I didn't see before so congrats on QC team!

    This is now ready for GP.

    EDIT: oh and at least for this sort of letter, the qc approval system seems to work really nice.
  13. Aurora

    Aurora If the spelling was P-E-T-E-R...
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    Amateur check.

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    am check (open)
    <h2>Overview</h2>

    <p>When looking at the NU tier, a question that is often asked is this&mdash;what do I use for Spikes and Toxic Spikes? Most Spikes and Toxic Spikes users are banished to other tiers, but obviously there are still teams that enjoy them, especially stall teams. The setters of Spikes and Toxic Spikes are just that, as they have little use outside of setting them up, so they're quite rare. However, the reality is that the two hazards are amazing in the NU tier, with thanks to a general lack of Rapid Spin users outside of Armaldo and most Pokemon being grounded, and the only common grounded Poison-types being Amoonguss, Garbodor, and Skuntank. Garbodor, the premier user of Spikes in NU, is viable almost completely because of this. The use of either form of Spikes may seem futile with the relative lack of users, but in actuality they are probably among the most useful pieces of hardware to have in NU.</p>

    <h2>Spikes</h2>

    <p>Spikes is perhaps one of the most useful moves for any team, weakening the checks of offensive Pokemon and providing some much-needed residual damage for stall. Fortunately, Spikes is blessed with a few users that, and while they don't not screaming "amazing Pokemon, must use", they are certainly decent Pokemon. This is a major advantage over Toxic Spikes, which has few users,: mostly NFEs at that. Additionally, Spikes don't have to worry about Amoonguss and Skuntank absorbing them.</p>

    <p>The first and best setter of Spikes is Garbodor, who has a useful defensive typing that allows it to check Fighting-types, as well as decent bulk, and solid offenses along with a wide offensive movepool that includes many gems, such as STAB Gunk Shot, Giga Drain, Drain Punch, and Seed Bomb. While it isn't exactly stellar offensively, it gets the job done and can beat offensive Armaldo, NU's best Rapid Spin user. Additionally, it can deter setup sweepers with Clear Smog. Its Speed stat is high enough to outspeed most walls and common sweepers. It even has Toxic Spikes, making it doubly useful. It's also got Aftermath for an ability, which dishes out pain if Garbodor is KOed. It resists Grass- and Fighting-type attacks, allowing it to set up on Amoonguss (Exeggutor has STAB Psychic, though Garbodor has Gunk Shot to KO it) and Sawk, and has enough Defense if invested to set up on Choice Scarf Braviary, Bulk Up Gurdurr, and Skuntank. Its oft-invested bulk is what will enable it to set up Spikes usually, as base 95 Attack isn't forcing many switches. Do you want Spikes? Use Garbodor, it's that simple.</p>

    <p>Moving on, there's a few other options. Cacturne is the most notable one, boasting a high base 115 Attack stat and STAB priority in Sucker Punch, making it a double threat, both offensively and support-wise. Cacturne also has Water Absorb, giving it an immunity to Water-type attacks. It can even boost its Attack stat with Swords Dance, giving it sweeping potential and forcing many switches, which creates an opportunity to set up Spikes. Alternatively, it can go with Substitute, which eases prediction and allows it to set up Spikes quite reliably. Cacturne sets up Spikes primarily by taking advantage of the switches it forces, and because of Water Absorb can set up Spikes on pretty much every Water-type. Grass-types, such as Amoonguss and Exeggutor, can also be set up on. If using Cacturne, place emphasis on its offensive capabilities, as otherwise you're better off using another Spiker. Glalie is another option; its even base 80 in all stats isn't particularly great, but it sets up Spikes and has Taunt to prevent opposing entry hazards. Taunt also gives it the ability to set up Spikes on Amoonguss's Spore, something that only Substitute Cacturne can boast. Glalie also has Explosion to keep up offensive momentum and is the only Spiker that isn't set up on by Altaria. When you combine this with a Focus Sash, Glalie will set up 2-3 layers of Spikes almost every match.</p>

    <p>Yet another option is Maractus, who'se Speed, courtesy of Chlorophyll, is doubled in sun. This allows Maractus to set up Spikes quickly, and although its bulk is mediocre, its base 106 Special Attack makes up for it. Maractus is an excellent Pokemon to set the stage for sun sweepers, such as Exeggutor and Charizard, as it both settings up sun and entry hazards for them. It's even got decent recovery in STAB Giga Drain. All Water-types in NU are outsped and thus forced out by Maractus, and a resistance to Grass-type attacks allows it to switch in on Choice Specs Exeggutor and set up Spikes. While it lmay seem like just another useless NFE., Omanyte has access to all three entry hazards, which gives it a solid niche, and has great bulk with Eviolite. It's not dead weight either, making a great check to Braviary and Swellow and switch-in to Cinccino's Tail Slap. Skuntank, physical Drifblim, Dragon Dance Lapras, Carracosta, and Rapidash lacking Solarbeam are other Pokemon that Omanyte does well against. It can even go offensive with its decent Special Attack stat and lay waste to many Pokemon while setting up Spikes. Abysmal Speed isn't helpful, but its ability to repeatedly set up Spikes is invaluable on teams reliant on Spikes for success.</p>

    <p>At this point, you know the Spikes users, but you should also know when to use them. If your team is reliant on getting up Spikes quickly, Garbodor or Glalie is are recommended, as they have enough bulk and Speed to get the job done. However, neither of them are staying alive for very long, and getting up 3 layers of Spikes more than once is unlikely. For this reason, Omanyte is the best choice on teams that are so reliant on Spikes, such as stall teams, that having the ability to set them up more than once is required. However, as to not be misleading, you should definitely note that defensive Garbodor can set up Spikes multiple times, also making a good Toxic Spikes absorber, but it overlaps with Amoonguss, which almost all stall teams use. Cacturne is a good choice for teams that are very offensive, as its own offensive capabilities allow it to both sweep and set up Spikes. If you haven't noticed yet, I left out Maractus, and that's because it should be used solely on sun teams.</p>

    <p>If you're using Spikes, it is imperative that you have a way to properly abuse them. Offensive Pokemon, such as Braviary and Samurott, love Spikes to weaken their counters, specifically Bulk Up Braviary, who absolutely loves Spikes in general so that it can defeat its usual counters. There's also perhaps the most annoying little aura guardian in all of Pokemon, Riolu, which utilizes its infamous Copycat + Roar strategy best when it has Spikes to abuse them with. Note that Riolu isn't all that effective because of the prevalence of priority in NU. (space) It's important to put some thought into putting Spikes on a team—if you don't need them or heavily benefit from them, don't use them,; use a better Pokemon in that slot taken up by a Spikes user instead.</p>

    <p>I'm going to take this opportunity to explain team types that are centered around Spikes. First and foremost is Spikes-stacking offense, which revolves around getting Spikes up quickly and abusing them with veritable offensive nukes. It is best to have a Pokemon that can get up Spikes reliably and maintain momentum, so offensive Garbodor, Glalie, or Substitute Cacturne is are recommended for such teams. Cinccino and Choice Band Braviary are two of the best abusers of Spikes, utilizing them to do such nefarious deeds as breaking Amoonguss for the former and breaking Alomomola for the latter. They force many switches and the latter even has U-turn in order to bring out a Pokemon that might force out a check or counter, thus spreading Spikes damage. Stall is another team type that makes good use of Spikes, and in fact requires them to succeed because of the invaluable residual damage that they provide. It is wise to use a Spikes user with the ability to survive for a long period of time; Omanyte is a good choice for this role. Additionally, stall teams often carry phazers, such as Altaria, Bastiodon, Lairon, and Lapras, that shuffle around the opposing team, spreading Spikes damage. When running Spikes on stall, it ias imperative to use a spinblocker to keep them up as long as possible. This role is best filled by Golurk, the only decent spinblocker available in NU. If you're looking to abuse Spikes, these two team types are a good base to build from.</p>

    <p>Outside of abusing Spikes, you should consider supporting the Spikes themselves. This is best done with a spinblocker. It's not very difficult to fit a spinblocker onto a team with the many solid Ghost-types available in NU, and the opportunity cost of setting up Spikes becomes paramount when you have to set them up more than once. The star of the show is Golurk, who has decent bulk, a very high base 124 Attack stat, and a useful secondary typing in Ground. It matches up well with the large majority of the NU tier that cannot hit it super effectively. Golurk demolishes both Armaldo and Torkoal, the best Rapid Spin users in NU. Just don't switch Golurk directly into Torkoal, as Torkoal OHKOes Golurk after a Shell Smash boost. You should also scout for Aqua Tail if facing an Armaldo. Almost dead even with Golurk is everyone's favorite spirit, Misdreavus. Misdreavus is Golurk's defensive equivalent, boasting an immunity to Ground-type attacks, solid bulk, and a movepool that contains a multitude of useful support moves, such as Heal Bell. It is a 100% failsafe counter Armaldo, NU's premier Rapid Spin user, so long as it isn't a Swords Dance variant with Life Orb or Lum Berry, and has Will-O-Wisp to burn it and is immune to the Toxic often carried by support variants. Additionally, it can take advantage of Torkoal's low Special Defense stat with base 85 Special Attack Shadow Ball. Next up is Haunter. It's very frail, so switching it on moves that are not Rapid Spin, Toxic, a recovery move, or similar support moves is not recommended, but it can switch into Armaldo's X-Scissor and hits hard with base 115 Special Attack. Drifblim is yet another great Ghost-type, and it can utilize the free turn it gets from switching into Rapid Spin to set up with Calm Mind or activate Unburden with Acrobatics. While Lampent straight-up loses to Armaldo, it beats Torkoal that lack Earth Power and hits fairly hard with STAB Flamethrower / Fire Blast (added spaces between moves and slashes). Lastly, Frillish can be used if and only if it is put on a stall team, as it has zero offensive presence but walls Torkoal for ages and is able to use Recover to do so multiple times.</p>

    <h2>Toxic Spikes</h2>

    <p>Toxic Spikes are a bit worse than Spikes, mainly due to the omnipresence of Amoonguss and Skuntank. Regardless, they're still useful, being extraordinarily helpful for stall and beneficial for most sweepers. They're aren't exactly a ton of Toxic Spikes users, but hey, there's still Garbodor and that's all that matters.</p>

    <p>Welcome Garbodor back to the table. Again, its bulk, typing, and movepool make it an excellent setter of Toxic Spikes. Garbodor is by-and-far (that looks a little odd) the best user of Toxic Spikes, but and while there's a few more, though they definitely skirt the line between viable and not of viability. Starting off, there's two more fully evolved Pokemon with Toxic Spikes,: Ariados and Beedrill. Beedrill is probably the best of these two, boasting access to U-turn to gain momentum, Knock Off to screw with Eviolite users, and Pursuit to trap spinblockers if you want to pair Beedrill with something like Armaldo or Torkoal. Ariados is slightly less promising, with horrid defenses and Speed, but Toxic Spikes are still Toxic Spikes and it has two options for priority in Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak along with a decent Attack stat to abuse them. In the NFE department, Omanyte returns from its Spikes-setting prowess with a new friend in Whirlipede to set up Toxic Spikes, both of the two boasting solid bulk and access to multiple forms of entry hazards.</p>

    <p>Where I said with Spikes you need to be able abuse them effectively, that goes double for Toxic Spikes, as other than Garbodor you're using up an entire Pokemon slot on Toxic Spikes. Bulk Up Braviary and similar physical sweepers with Substitute are excellent abusers, as Toxic Spikes allowing them to break through their arch-nemesis, Alomomola. Stall enjoys Toxic Spikes to add to its pile of residual damage. Something that should really be considered when running Toxic Spikes is Gothorita, who can trap Amoonguss, the move's largest deterrent.</p>

    <h2>Conclusion</h2>

    <p>Go out there, and try Spikes and Toxic Spikes. There's enough viable users if you want them, so don't be scared away when told that NU has nothing to use them, for that is, simply put, not the case. Find the many users of the entry hazards, put them on your offensive teams, your stall teams, and everything in-between if you can abuse them effectively. Show the NU tier what Spikes and Toxic Spikes can do,: surprise your opponents, screw over strategies, and even annoy the f*** out of the them with Riolu. It's easy; gset some of these wonderful entry hazards with proper support and watch your games become much easier!</p>
  14. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    Okay Rory I've got some feedback for you. I implemented your check except for the following:

    • First paragraph of Spikes, second sentence:
    • Your Change: Fortunately, Spikes is blessed with a few users that, and while they don't not screaming "amazing Pokemon, must use", they are certainly decent Pokemon.
    • My Change: Fortunately, Spikes is blessed with a few users that, while they don't not screaming "amazing Pokemon, must use", they are certainly decent Pokemon.
    • Reasoning: The "and" you said to put in sounded awkward.
    • In general:
    • (I'll use the first example) If your team is reliant on getting up Spikes quickly, Garbodor or Glalie is are recommended.
    • Reasoning: Say that sentence out load, both your change and my original. The original not only sounds better but also (I could be mistaken, but I don't think so) is more correct. If you're saying "x or x __ recommended", "is" works better as you are only suggesting the use of one of them.

    That should do it, thanks Rory!
  15. gookie

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    this is only a partial check, after doing this much i realised i was asking zeb about stuff and i should not be doing that as gp.

    i asked zeb to look over this for qc purposes and i am holding out on the rest of this check until he finishes that.

    a few things to note though: elaborate as to why things are checks, and check your information; sub spikes cacturne is terrible apparently, moreover, things like cacturne setting up on spore amoonguss with substitute when it has sludge bomb are just factually incorrect.

    i also noticed a paragraphing problem when listing the best spikers, you separated it like this

    -garbodor (subject: best spiker)

    -cacturne & glalie (subject: remaining spikers)

    -maractus (subject: remaining spiker?????????)

    either split cacturne, glalie, and maractus, or put them all together under 'remaining spikers' as a subject. personally, i would just give each of them a separate paragraph.
  16. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken
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    i am giving this another qc on request. keep in mind that i don't mean to be excessively picky, i just don't want incorrect information being released.

    toxic spikes are not 'amazing' in NU, especially given how just about every other team carries some kind of poison-type (and amoonguss / garbodor / skuntank are not exactly uncommon). it has some advantageous matchups against things like weather etc and is generally underused because so many people use amoonguss, but i think you're overstating its usefulness by just sticking it in there with spikes. toxic spikes is easily the worst hazard in NU, but it is still plausibly useful.

    for some reason i don't really like the 'advantage' portion, given that spikes has a grand total of four fully evolved users (two of which are unviable) and that toxic spikes have three fully evolved users (again, two of which are unviable). it's really not an advantage, just that you actually have another fully evolved mon outside of garbodor that you can possibly use without resorting to shit like glalie / ariados etc

    why is exeggutor mentioned?

    garbodor should be the highlight of this letter and while this is a nice overview of garbodor's qualities it really doesn't point out exactly why it's so great in NU. you mentioned garbodor's typing but didn't really talk about it; being a pure poison-type in NU is an amazing thing atm, since it means you just set up all over nearly every common defensive core since they really can't touch you (alomoonguss, especially). garbodor also is exceptional at keeping some really common offensive threats in check, which is more than basically every other spiker can say. just to exemplify my point - out of the top 50 or so in usage, it outright sets up on gurdurr, choice locked sawk, amoonguss, alomomola, miltank, lickilicky, non-eq pinsir, bastidon, probopass, weezing, cacturne, other garbodor, floatzel, tangela, cradily, serperior. i didn't include skuntank because it commonly uses taunt. you mentioned a few of these but garbodor's ability to set up is just so far above every other spiker in the tier that it needs to be drilled into the heads of the readers.

    garbodor also has access to semi-reliable recovery in pain split - while this isn't sufficient for every match, it still lets it get up three layers against bulkier teams and lets garbodor stick around to annoy them until late-game. garbodor also has utility outside of spiking - between aftermath, rocky helmet (most garbodor should honestly be using this, it's a fantastic cinccino check and deals with things like cb emboar), and toxic / its attacks, it can deter just about everything from switching into it directly or even wanting to attack it. to top that off, it can also run a pretty strong offensive spiking set since it outspeeds a few relevant threats like adamant absol, ludicolo, and samurott. also it doesn't beat armaldo, who resists and/or is neutral to all of its attacks. you explained its attributes rather well but didn't really talk about its role in NU, which should probably change

    water absorb is not that good; everything except for alomomola has another attack that deters it from setting up. honestly i really don't like spikes with substitute at all, since you're not evading status from anything you weren't able to set up on before. also no way in hell does cacturne reliably set up on either eggy or amoonguss...

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cacturne: 276-325 (97.87 - 115.24%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
    4 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cacturne: 258-306 (91.48 - 108.51%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

    i mean i know specs eggy is not particularly common but you give far too much leeway to cacturne here. points that should be emphasized when talking about cacturne as a spikes user: it's frail as fuck but deters stuff from staying in thanks to impressive 115 offenses. it doesn't have as many reliable opportunities to set up spikes but it will take what it can get. most cacturne sets are actually heavily reliant on their item, with two primary variants; focus sash/yache berry and dark gem. focus sash guarantees cacturne at least one free layer if not two, while also allowing cacturne to act as a failsafe later in the game if hazards are not up by then. higher-quality players have also been using destiny bond on sash cacturne to force things like cinccino to switch out and can also ensure a few more layers. yache berry does similarly but isn't disrupted by hazards and actually works with water absorb against stuff like gorebyss / ludicolo, where it can then revenge them with seed bomb + sucker punch. dark gem makes it more useful against offensive teams, picking up guaranteed KOes on ludicolo / cinccino after sr etc. anyway point is that cacturne is better off being used for its other qualities before its spiking utilities (but a team looking for both will find cacturne really appealing).

    putting these two together. both are abysmal in the current NU metagame. maractus is _directly_ outclassed by cacturne, with only slightly better defenses, chlorophyll, and no fighting weakness. while both garbodor and cacturne have utility outside of spikes, glalie's only use is to set up spikes and die in the beginning of the match, and just about every team carries something that outspeeds a base 80 pokemon. better yet, cinccino ohkoes through its sash with rock blast. even offensive sash garbodor is better than glalie since it can potentially get a speed boost with weak armor and get another layer. both of these have the ability to use spikes but just have huge drawbacks that make them much worse than the former two options. we're not trying to sell them here, so just tell 'em how it is.

    don't mention cinccino's tail slap since the majority of them are lo and will just decimate it with bullet seed in the next turn. otherwise i'm okay with this i guess

    garbodor is easily the best choice for -any- team that needs spikes. omanyte has some bulk but no recovery... idg what your thought process was there? also amoonguss is not an essential mon for stall teams either. i'm not particularly fond of this paragraph in its entirety. unless you're going to reword it pointing out that garbodor is the best in nearly every scenario...

    bu brav's primary counters are electric-types, most notably eelektross and rotom-a and neither are susceptible to spikes. i suppose probopass also counts but brav wins that matchup anyway..

    spikes are beneficial to just about every team if you can fit them in, especially since NU lacks a lot of recovery. you don't necessarily need anything weird like riolu to make them work, they just cut it. it also cuts down the effectiveness of regen mons by a ton. i would honestly encourage the use of spikes on most teams rather than saying "oh if you don't need them don't use them". it's not like they need a special occasion or anything to be good

    plz cut out glalie it's atrocious. also sub cacturne is meh

    i still don't know where you get the idea that omanyte has any kind of survivability

    haunter can pseudo spinblock and actually beats most spinners with disable, misdreavus is bulky as hell, even frillish does a good job. golurk is not the only 'decent' one. i otherwise don't have much to say about this i suppose

    mention subdisable haunter which i would honestly argue to be one of the best spinblockers

    ghosts vs spinners is a war usually won by the spinners, as all three 'good' spinners have ways to beat every ghost-type (ss torkoal, sd lum armaldo, foresight wartortle). i don't know if it's worth just rehashing the qualities of every spinblocker in NU when it's really hard to block spins from good players anyway... i'd rather have you talk about the mentality of NU spinblocking etc rather than wasting words on stuff that anyone who has access to the analyses should already know

    more than a bit. to reiterate myself, a few good matchups against weather teams and bulky boosters w/o a poison type

    edit: misread gothitelle here, sorry about that.

    this section should talk mostly about how most toxic spikes users outside of garbodor are just outright bad and discuss its potential usefulness and why that has declined, etc


    possibly a 'how to deal with spikes' section where you talk about the most effective ways to use the spinners and/or take advantage of the hazards setters


    sorry for the derailed thoughts toward the end, i'm kind of rushing so i can get this posted before my internet cuts in a few minutes and i'm also somewhat tired. don't take any insult to my criticisms, but i really don't like how a lot of this is just a rehashing of their characteristics which we could already find out by looking at any of the analyses for these pokemon. isn't this supposed to be a guide to help people understand how NU works better? can we fix this up so that it's actually about NU, and not just another analysis?
  17. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    I haven't responded for a while so I guess I owe a progress report.

    zeb, thanks for going over it again. I made the structural changes you suggested. I believe two paragraphs were removed, one of them rewritten. I redid the descriptions of the Spikers and Toxic Spikers to tell it exactly how it is and give the relevant ones better quality descriptions. Unnecessary information like the description of Aftermath was taken out. As you said, people can look at the analyses for information like that. I also added a "How to Deal with Spikes and Toxic Spikes" section.

    If you take the time to read it, you'll notice the overall tone of the writing is different. When I originally wrote this, it was overtly formal, with superfluous wording that isn't really that easy to follow. It's important when there's a wall of text about a metagame that it's bearable to read so it can actually be absorbed. As such, I relaxed the tone of the writing, taking a more laidback approach as opposed to making it read like an essay. I suppose the grammar might not be so great because of that. I'm making this post now to give an update, but please don't GP it until I edit this post saying it's completely ready. It's not yet in an acceptable state grammar-wise, so I'd like to give it a look-over.

    Expect this to be fully ready shortly.

    EDIT: alright this can be gp'd now
  18. gookie

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    do i dare?
  19. NixHex

    NixHex what is béisbol
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    No Poppy I got this.
    diff (open)
    <h2>Overview</h2>

    <p>When looking at the NU tier, a question that is often asked is this: what do I use for Spikes and Toxic Spikes? Most Spikes and Toxic Spikes users are banished to the upper tiers, but there are still NU teams that want and benefit from them, especially stall teams. The setters of Spikes and Toxic Spikes are just that, as they have little use outside of setting them up. However, the reality is that Spikes, and to a lesser extent Toxic Spikes, are amazing in NU, thanks to a general lack of Rapid Spin users outside of Armaldo and most Pokemon being grounded, the only common grounded Poison-types being Amoonguss, Garbodor, and Skuntank. Garbodor, the premier user of Spikes in NU, is viable almost completely because of this. The use of either form of Spikes might seem impractical with its relative lack of users, but in actuality they are probably among the most useful pieces of hardware to have in NU.</p>

    <h2>Spikes</h2>

    <p>Spikes is perhaps one of the most useful moves for any team, weakening the checks of offensive Pokemon and providing some much-needed residual damage for stall. Fortunately, Spikes is blessed with a few users that, while not screaming "amazing Pokemon, must use", are certainly decent Pokemon. Unlike Toxic Spikes, your options aren't Garbodor and... nothing; rather, there's two solid setters and a decent niche one. Additionally, Spikes don't have to worry about Amoonguss, Garbodor, and Skuntank absorbing them.</p>

    <p>The best setter of Spikes is Garbodor, who boasts many assets to secure this position; i. Its Poison typing and decent bulk allows it to check Fighting-types; i. Its decent offensive stats, along with a wide offensive movepool&mdash;STAB Gunk Shot, Giga Drain, Drain Punch, and Seed Bomb all make an appearance&mdash;allow Garbodor to beat Torkoal before it sets up a Shell Smash and Wartortle. Speaking of its Poison typing, it gives Garbodor the ability to set up Spikes on most common defensive threats partially due to providing resistances to Grass- and Foighting-type attacks, such as Amoonguss, Alomomola, Miltank, Lickilicky, Bastiodon, Probopass, Weezing, opposing Garbodor, Tangela, and Cradily. Garbodor can also keep quite a few offensive threats in check and set up Spikes thanks to its solid physical bulk when invested in. Examples include Choice locked Sawk, Pinsir that lack Earthquake, Cacturne, Gurdurr, and Absol. Garbodor even has access to Toxic Spikes, making it a member of the elite club of Pokemon in NU to have access to both hazards. Aftermath, while not the most useful or coveted of abilities, when paired with a Rocky Helmet enables Garbodor to deal significant damage to Pokemon such as Cinccino and Choice Band Emboar. Toxic can be layered on top of this damage to create a destructive cycle that leaves most enemies picking at their wounds. To put the icing on the cake, Garbodor learns Pain Split, which provides beloved recovery. Although this will not be sufficient against every team and every powerhouse, bulkier teams and teams that lack a clear hard hitter will crumple before Garbodor as it sets up three layers of Spikes, in addition to giving Garbodor a tool to stick around even until late-game and set Spikes up more than once if necessary. This is only considering Garbodor's flagship defensive set, as an offensive set is stellar as well. Between outspeeding non-Jolly Absol, Ludicolo, and Samurott and boasting a plethora of coverage moves, Garbodor will, with great regularity, set up multiple layers of Spikes (and possibly Toxic Spikes). Garbodor is by and far the best Spiker sitting in the trenches of NU, so if Spikes are what you want, trash is the type of Pokemon you should get.</p>

    <p>Aside from Garbodor, there are few viable Spikes users. Cacturne is the most notable one, boasting a high base 115 Attack stat and STAB priority in Sucker Punch, allowing it to take on both offensive and supporting roles. On the other hand, Cacturne is quite frail, meaning it must rely on its offenses to force its opponents out and seize every opportunity it gets to set up Spikes. Cacturne also has Water Absorb as an ability, giving it an immunity to Water-type attacks; however, this does not afford Cacturne many extra opportunities to set up, as most Pokemon who have a Water-type attack as their STAB can threaten Cacturne with their coverage moves. Swords Dance complements Sucker Punch quite nicely, giving Cacturne free turns to set up Spikes on the switches it inevitably forces with the threat of boosted attacks. Cacturne sets up Spikes primarily by taking advantage of the switches it forces, and because of Water Absorb can set up Spikes on Alomomola without having to fear a burn. Really though, this is all great, but this information is immaterial when compared to the importance of item choice. There are three items that Cacturne can use well&mdash;Focus Sash, Yache Berry, and Dark Gem. Focus Sash is the accepted standard, giving Cacturne one of those nifty easy buttons, specifically one that guarantees one layer of Spikes if not more in the lead position, or with some Rapid Spin support or skillful offensive pressure, at any time during a match. Destiny Bond can be used alongside Focus Sash to make the most out of Cacturne's low Speed stat, as it will force out all opponents (with the sole exclusion of Cinccino) after they have broken Cacturne's Focus Sash and allow Cacturne to curse them with another layer of Spikes. Yache Berry variants function in a similar fashion, allowing Cacturne to take advantage of Water Absorb against numerous Water-type threats, such as Gorebyss and Ludicolo. Because it can survive the incoming Ice Beam, Cacturne can pull off a revenge kill between Seed Bomb and Sucker Punch. Dark Gem provides a power boost to Sucker Punch, which makes it a menace for offensive teams to face, as Ludicolo and Cinccino, among others, will always be OHKOed by Sucker Punch after Stealth Rock and / or Spikes damage. Be sure to select Cacturne for its merits outside of setting up Spikes; Garbodor is the better "throw it on a team and go to town" Spiker, but Cacturne is a stellar Pokemon even without Spikes taken into account. In a nutshell, Cacturne is an offensive Pokemon first and a Spiker next, so be sure that Garbodor couldn't better fill its position before using it. For some teams, this combination is invaluable, so you shouldn't have too much trouble doing so.</p>

    <p>Glalie is decent on paper; even base 80 in all stats isn't particularly great, but it can set up Spikes and learns Taunt to prevent opposing entry hazards. It even has Explosion to keep up offensive momentum and is the only Spiker that isn't set up on by Altaria. However, Glalie is a piece of rubbish beyond setting up one or two layers of Spikes, so really don't use it unless you have an obsession with icy life forms. In the same boat is Maractus, who blows even more. Although it can set up both Spikes and Sunny Day (with Chlorophyll doubling its Speed I might add), which makes it a seemingly perfect candidate for sun teams, it lies in the shadow of Cacturne. Its inability to take a hit and barren movepool are other red lights saying "don't use me, I suck". On the flip side, there is Omanyte. Omanyte has access to all three entry hazards, which gives it a solid niche, and has great bulk with Eviolite. It's not dead weight either, making a solid check to Braviary, Swellow, Skuntank, physical Drifblim, Dragon Dance Lapras, Carracosta, and Rapidash lacking Solarbeam. It can even go on the offensive with its decent Special Attack stat and lay waste to many Pokemon while setting up Spikes. Abysmal Speed isn't helpful, but its ability to lay Spikes repeatedly is invaluable on teams reliant on Spikes for success.</p>

    <p>For the slow ones, use Garbodor or Cacturne in almost every case, usually the former. Other Spikers are trash and shouldn't be used, ever (besides Omanyte, who is niche). It is imperative that you not take the stupid route if you wish to succeed, period, end of conversation, whatever phrase you prefer that represents closure.</p>

    <p>I'm going to take this opportunity to explain team types that are centered around Spikes. First and foremost is Spikes-stacking offense, which revolves around getting Spikes up quickly and abusing them with veritable offensive nukes. It is best to have a Pokemon that can get up Spikes reliably and maintain momentum, so offensive Garbodor (defensive can work too) or Cacturne is recommended.is recommended for such teams. Cinccino and Choice Band Braviary are two of the best abusers of Spikes, utilizing them to do such nefarious deeds as breaking Amoonguss for the former and breaking Alomomola for the latter. They force many switches and the latter even has U-turn in order to bring out a Pokemon that might force out a check or counter, thus spreading Spikes damage. Stall is another team type that makes good use of Spikes, and in fact requires them to succeed because of the invaluable residual damage that they provide. It is wise to use a Spikes user with the ability to survive for a long period of time; defensive Garbodor is the best choice for this reason. Additionally, stall teams often carry phazers, such as Altaria, Bastiodon, Lairon, and Lapras, that shuffle around the opposing team, spreading Spikes damage. When running Spikes on stall, it is imperative to use a spinblocker to keep them up as long as possible. This role is best filled by Golurk or Misdreavus, the only spinblockers available in NU that have much in the way of bulk. At this point, you might be wondering—where do the other Spikers fit in? Well, Glalie is poor and Maractus is 99% trash, leaving Omanyte, which would be used for type synergy purposes where it fits better than Garbodor or Cacturne. If you're looking to abuse Spikes, these two team types are a good base to build from.</p>

    <p>Outside of abusing Spikes, you should consider supporting the Spikes themselves. This is best done with a spinblocker. It's not very difficult to fit a spinblocker on a team with the many solid Ghost-types available in NU, and the opportunity cost of setting up Spikes becomes paramount when you have to set them up more than once. The star of the show is Golurk, who has decent bulk, a very high base 124 Attack stat, and a useful secondary Groundt typing in Ground. It matches up well with the large majority of the NU tier that cannot hit it super effectively. Golurk demolishes both Armaldo and Torkoal, the best Rapid Spin users in NU. Just don't switch Golurk directly into Torkoal, as Torkoal OHKOes Golurk after a Shell Smash boost. You should also scout for Aqua Tail if facing an Armaldo. Almost dead even with Golurk is everyone's favorite spirit, Misdreavus. Misdreavus is Golurk's defensive equivalent, boasting an immunity to Ground-type attacks, solid bulk, and a movepool that contains a multitude of useful support moves, such as Heal Bell. It is a 100% failsafe counter Armaldo, NU's premier Rapid Spin user, so long as it isn't a Swords Dance variant with Life Orb or Lum Berry, andIt also has Will-O-Wisp to burn it and is immune to the Toxic often carried by support variants. Additionally, it can take advantage of Torkoal's low Special Defense stat with base 85 Special Attack Shadow Ball. Next up is Haunter. It's very frail, so switching it on moves that are not Rapid Spin, Toxic, a recovery move, or similar support moves is not recommended, but it can switch into Armaldo's X-Scissor and hit hard with its high base 115 Special Attack. Haunter can also don its evolution's signature set, SubDisable, which prevents further use of Rapid Spin, allowing Haunter's teammates to take the reins without the worry of Spikes being spun away. Drifblim is yet another great Ghost-type, and it can take advantage of the free turn it gets from switching into Rapid Spin to set up with Calm Mind or activate Unburden with Acrobatics. While Lampent straight-up loses to Armaldo, it beats Torkoal that lack Earth Power and hits fairly hard with STAB Flamethrower / Fire Blast. Lastly, Frillish can be used if and only if it is put on a stall team, as it has zero offensive presence but walls Torkoal for ages and is able to use Recover to do so multiple times.</p>

    <p>Many people believe that you need some special reason to use Spikes; don't listen to them, Spikes should be on every team that can find room for them. Without Spikes in play, Amoonguss and Alomomola can waltz in and out of play freely, living forever to be horrendous nuisances due to being able to fall back on Regenerator whenever they lose health and come back in unscathed. Not with Spikes, however, as with Stealth Rock they will give these popular walls a net <em>loss</em> of HP! Offensive Pokemon love to tear apart every Pokemon in their path, but without the extra damage from Spikes it is more difficult to do so, not to mention the plethora of KOs and 2HKOs they secure for a plethora of Pokemon. Pokemon attempting to Toxic stall or to pull off some other strategy of the like have a much easier time with more residual damage aiding their efforts. There's are even some gimmicks, such as Riolu's Copycat + Roar strategy, that you can use and are aided by Spikes. If you can fit Spikes on your team, do it,; they're useful for pretty much every strategy imaginable.</p>

    <h2>Toxic Spikes</h2>

    <p>Toxic Spikes are much worse than Spikes, mainly due to the omnipresence of Amoonguss, Garbodor, and Skuntank. Regardless, they're still useful, being extraordinarily helpful for stall and beneficial for most sweepers. There aren't exactly a ton of Toxic Spikes users, but hey, there's still Garbodor and that's all that matters. Well, not really. Toxic Spikes are not very good at all. They used to be pretty nifty, wearing down walls such as Tangela and Alomomola along with a ton of other Pokemon. However, this all changed when BW2 cane along, as the new games brought Amoonguss, who just happens to be one of the most popular Pokemon in NU. Suddenly, Tangela dropped into obscurity and NU was left with a Poison-type as arguably the best wall in the metagame. That's right&mdash;Amoonguss absorbs Toxic Spikes. This simple fact combined with the increase in Garbodor usage threw Toxic Spikes into the abyss, rarely to be seen again. They're still great and all, being an excellent tool for residual damage, but they're not what they used to be and not what they are in other tiers.</p>

    <p>The second reason for the obscurity of Toxic Spikes is the lack of users. If you're not using Garbodor (who is prioritizing setting up Spikes because they are so much more useful), you're kind of stuck. I mean, Garbodor's an amazing Pokemon, but if you can't fit it in / don't want to use it, you're kind of stuck. Omanyte is great too but struggles to fit Toxic Spikes into its moveset because it then has to forfeit another, usually more important move. There's are 3 other usable (not saying viable) Toxic Spikes users. Beedrill boasts access to U-turn to bring a teammate in free, Knock Off to neuter Eviolite users, and Pursuit to trap spinblockers, which is particularly useful if Beedrill is paired with a spinner. It's <em>okay</em>, but it's really not a Pokemon you want to use. Ariados is another; even two priority options in Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak with a decent Attack stat fail to make up for horrid defenses and Speed. Whirlipede holds the title of MWB (Most Worthless Bug), having no use outside of setting up Toxic Spikes. That's it for Toxic Spikes users; hopefully you can see now why they're rare.</p>

    <p>Remember where I said with Spikes you have no need to have a specific way to take advantage of them? Forget that for Toxic Spikes,; they're not good enough to just be thrown on without a great need for them (or Garbodor). Bulk Up Braviary and similar physical sweepers with Substitute are excellent abusers, as Toxic Spikes allow them to break through their arch-nemesis, Alomomola. Stall enjoys Toxic Spikes to add to its pile of residual damage. Something that should really be considered when running Toxic Spikes is Gothorita, who can trap Amoonguss, the move's largest deterrent. In all actuality, you might be seeing and even having Toxic Spikes quite often, just not the move being used much, as Garbodor often carries it but it many cases doesn't get around to setting them up.</p>

    <h2>How to Deal with Spikes and Toxic Spikes</h2>

    <p>Enough about how great Spikes and how awful Toxic Spikes are; you need to know how to beat them. I've alluded to these threats throughout this letter. Rapid Spinners are the most surefire way to deal with Spikes; you take them away, and if your opponent wants then back they have to set them up again. SMASHKOAL, which is the popular name for Shell Smash Torkoal, is your best bet. While a weakness to Stealth Rock and vulnerability to both forms of Spikes might turn you off, realize that all the spinblockers I mentioned in the Spikes section can be beaten after a Shell Smash; every single one of them. It can just set up and spin really reliably between STAB Fire Blast and Earth Power or Hidden Power Grass. If it is unboosted against SubDisable Haunter, however, it will be unable to spin. Armaldo' is the most common spinner, but it has trouble against pretty much all of the common spinblockers, even with Swords Dance, and is also weak to Stealth Rock and vulnerable to both forms of Spikes,. However, it does demolish Garbodor and Cacturne with the right offensive moves and can take some pretty powerful attacks. Oh yeah, don't use Wartortle. It is a worthless Pokemon with pitiful offenses and not-so-amazing defenses. Never, ever, use Wartortle. It's the same situation with defensive Armaldo.</p>

    <p>Okay, maybe the relatively pitiful showing of spinners in NU dissuades you from using them. No one can blame you, SMASHKOAL is the best one and it's not the easiest Pokemon to fit on a team. The only other decent spinner is offensive Armaldo, who has the same issue. As such, you might want a Taunt user. Skuntank is the only one that's particularly good, and it fairs pretty well against Garbodor and Cacturne. Magic Bounce reflects entry hazards, and NU has a Pokemon with that ability,: Natu. Natu is impossible to set up Spikes against, as it can just set up screens while Cacturne tries to Sucker Punch. Its only fallacyweakness in this role is against Garbodor that carry Rock Blast. Toxic Spikes has one big issue that you can easily take advantage of, and that's Poison-types absorbing them. Amoonguss, Skuntank, and Garbodor are extremely easy to fit on a team, particularly the former. If none of these options float your boat, you can always just keep up the offensive pressure, consistently making correct predictions (mainly double switches) that make it difficult for Spikers to get in freely and set up Spikes. If they do get set up and you are left without any of these countermeasures, the best thing you can do is to attempt to minimize their impact. This means getting in the Pokemon that you cannot afford to be have Toxic poisoning in when there is only one layer of Toxic Spikes up. This means minimizing switching into grounded Pokemon. If worst comes worst, smart play will usually be able to save you from any major issues with Spikes, and to a lesser extent, Toxic Spikes.</p>

    <h2>Conclusion</h2>

    <p>Go out there and try Spikes and Toxic Spikes. There's enough viable users if you want them, so don't be scared away when told that NU has nothing to use them, for that is, simply put, not the case. Find the many uses of the entry hazards, and put them on your offensive teams, your stall teams, and everything in-between. Show the NU tier what Spikes and Toxic Spikes can do, surprise your opponents, screw over strategies, and even annoy the f*** out of thrustrate them with Riolu. It's easy; get some of these wonderful entry hazards and watch your games become much easier!</p>

    I don't know what you want to do about the f*** at the end. There's generally no need to use * in censoring because we know what you mean anyway, but randomly inserting "fuck" into your article seems silly and unnecessary. Other than that, good job.
    [gp]1/2[/gp]
  20. Oglemi

    Oglemi QUOTE DATABASE SLAYER, TIK SLAYER, going down the list
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    Before this gets another GP check Zebraiken wanted to take another look at it, but that won't happen until he's back from vacation, so we'll have to sit tight until then.
  21. Jukain

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    Okay, I've implemented nix's gp check, thanks! This can just wait until zeb gets back then.
  22. Jukain

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    okay this obviously has to be updated: NU just got a great Spiker / Toxic Spiker in Roselia, and Amoonguss left the tier, which makes Toxic Spikes much more viable. Absol also just left the tier and so cannot be listed as a Pursuiter. zeb also has things to say (I think?), so yeah.

    EDIT: I need to test Roselia some before I write about it so that will be done sometime soon
  23. Zebraiken

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    yo sorry for taking a little while to get to this, i am kind of shitty with time management and priorities

    you're definitely going to have to adjust a lot of this to take roselia into account. rose rivals garbodor as the best spiker in the tier for both spikes and tspikes - they're better on different teams and in different situations, and you should be prepared to explain that. to summarize the difference between them: garbodor performs better against physically-oriented threats and has the ability to use items (rocky helmet, black sludge, a few other interesting options like focus sash lead) while roselia has does much better against most specially-oriented pokemon, has much more of an offensive presence making it more useful on a lot of balanced teams, and has access to reliable recovery + a few neat things like leech seed. roselia is generally going to be better despite a few illegalities (leaf storm + spikes and sleep powder + spikes are notable; they are not illegal with tspikes) but garbodor is still a very solid option for teams that have minimal use for roselia's tools, or those that don't want to stack up on weaknesses to stuff like braviary.

    toxic spikes are going to be better, but roselia will probably be top 15 if not top 10 and we still have skuntank + garbodor to absorb them. i wouldn't add extra emphasis on their effectiveness because amoonguss is gone, given that skuntank is gonna be more dominant than ever now that absol's gone too.

    it's a bit nitpicky but i don't like the use of the term "banished". can we go with something along the lines of "reside in the upper tiers"? "banished" sounds a bit like we banned them which is not an impression that i want to give. i'd also generalize the rapid spin users you mention, as armaldo is really not that much better than torkoal or wartortle.

    tres now, aside from that this is cool

    garbodor loses to smashkoal, and can only toxic wartortle. seed bomb does like 20% to it and garbo really shouldn't be running seed bomb anyway imo. it has an ok offensive movepool and build but generally should not be trying to be an offensive spiker; it's relying on a 70% accurate stab attack with so-so coverage and doesn't really serve as a bulky poison-type with such a set (it gets cleanly 2hkoed by most powerful attacks with min investment). you can still point it out as somewhat anti-meta as it outspeeds the key base 70s, but it's just ehhhhh. i would primarily highlight its ability to set up on a buttload of pokemon, offensive and defensive alike. it's the most reliable spiker at getting them up and still being useful, even if you just switch it into something like braviary to rack up brave bird damage + rh damage + aftermath.

    i think you can shorten this up greatly by just condensing the description of garbodor's qualities into a few sentences and instead talk about how it performs in the metagame and why it's one of two premier options for spikes. we're not reading this letter to re-read the analysis about garbodor, but rather learn about how hazards work in NU, so try to keep focused on that. :]

    roselia also probably needs a paragraph of its own

    i'd like to have yache mention cut, tbh. sash is better in almost every scenario, and the few situations where cacturne needs to be dealing with ludicolo late-game (i hope you're not relying on it to beat ludi), dark gem sucker punch exists and ohkoes. you can give yache a brief mention but it's really not worth making it sound good. i like how you wrapped it up but this one also feels really heavy on just describing cacturne's qualities and little on how/why it's good with spikes. i don't think you need to dedicate 4+ sentences to telling us how water absorb is useless bar alomomola, how sd is neat, etc. i bolded the parts that i really like out of this segment and i'd like to see you explore a bit more with them, especially talking about how focus sash and dark gem are useful beyond simply describing how they work. the writing isn't anything particularly bad (it's pretty good imo), but it just feels irrelevant to the topic at hand when you just describe the pokemon in a vacuum rather than how it performs.

    i know that what i'm saying about talking less about the qualities of the pokemon and more about the metagame is probably a bit confusing, so let me give you an example of what i'm thinking about. in practice, cacturne generally finds it incredibly difficult to set up spikes without risking itself. it can set up on alomomola, yes, but that is literally the only thing in the metagame that it can easily set up on (bar maybe psychic + twave musharna?). the loss of encore from the sand veil ban prevents it from setting up on a ton of stuff, like pokemon cact could lock into sr etc, so buying free turns to set up is critical to cacturne's gameplan, which is why sash + destiny bond is such a good set. it allows cacturne to set a layer of spikes and potentially force a switch to get up more spikes or simply trade cacturne one-for-one while having a layer of hazards or more up for you. outside of focus sash, cacturne has a difficult time fitting spikes in its moveset, let alone finding a moment to use it on the field. if cacturne somehow gets a free turn, you have to start making decisions like picking between setting up an sd and having a chance to sweep, or setting up a single layer while your opp switches around or w/e. i really like the phrasing of the end there so please keep that!

    i'm okay with the part describing the other spikers, it's pretty spot-on though i'd prefer that you refer to them more along the lines of 'outclassed' than 'trash', since they still have a move that a ton of other mons would die for


    i feel like the section explaining spikes-based teams and spinblockers is incorrectly placed. why is it in the middle of the article before you even talk about t-spikes? that seems to fit best at the end. also remember to talk about how roselia and garbodor interact with each other here and which is the best pick for each kind of team. in regards to the spinblocking section in particular, you only really need to talk a lot about golurk and misdreavus imo. drifblim / haunter are okay at it and can block in a pinch for offensive given that you have good prediction, but they lose to all of the spinners apart from haunter disabling their stab moves. you don't need to say much beyond that, maybe give a brief mention of frillish but yeah.

    that first sentence is just overblown. you don't need spikes on every team, especially considering how limited your options are. they're useful on every team yeah, but... it doesn't mean that you NEED to put them on every team. also spikes + sr isn't a net loss for regen unless you have a full 3 layers of spikes up iirc, which is a ton and most games you will not get that much. i think you can really just edit the first sentence and cut out the second part about regen (or edit it to make it sound more along the lines of simply wearing bulky pokemon down) and this part will sound a lot better. also, you used plethora twice in same sentence


    in regards to toxic spikes, i'm okay with a lot of it but i'd like you to emphasize that the main trouble with them is not really that they're 'useless' all the time since many teams actually have a lot of problems with t-spikes (notably builds like gardevoir / gorebyss etc) but rather that they're a waste of a moveslot and turn(s) against any team with roselia / garbodor / skuntank. a single switch-in can erase a potential two turns of advantage.

    mediocre*, they're still good against a lot of mons like gorebyss gardevoir ludicolo samurott kangaskhan musharna alomomola etc

    smashkoal shouldn't be running hp grass; that makes it a bit confusing. when i ran smashkoal for the first time i confused myself when thinking about coverage and ended up not using rapid spin at all on accident. don't make it sound like hp should be the last slot :P

    don't diss wartortle, it has foresight spin which means it is the only spinner that is guaranteed to get a spin off. it's not great outside of spinning yeah, but neither are the other spinners, really...



    alright my inspiration to do this kind of fizzled out at the end so i mightve missed a few important things, but i'm pretty sure i hit everything. sorry to make you write so much for this, but rose does need a huge mention since it's basically just as good if not better than garbo. anyway i'm gonna go to bed, lmk when you write up the roselia section / edit the other parts and i'll give it a quick look-over
  24. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    okay

    first off, as I edited into my last post, I'm testing Roselia a bit before I give it a mention. The rest of the stuff I'll edit in when I have time, thanks for getting around to it!
  25. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    Sorry for the delay, I've been working on other stuff and this got pushed to the side. This should be just about ready now, though I'm requesting this go through 2 more GP checks simply because I did revise some significant portions.

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