Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[IBZ]

how many times is this going to be in metagame discussion, theres a whole policy thread for a reason

Everyone who's talking about it here rn doesn't have a badge
Policy review is restricted to players with badges
That's why there's discussion about it here

 

[ausma]

Everyone who's talking about it here rn doesn't have a badge
Policy review is restricted to players with badges
That's why there's discussion about it here

For the record, non-badged users can request Policy Review access to the desired thread and have it accepted to the respective Tier Leaders’ discretion, so that’s not entirely true. If you’re interested in applying for posting access please read this post!

However, despite this, I personally have no real issues with King’s Rock being discussed here simply because, no matter how we approach the situation, it is a factor of the metagame that influences common trends; OLT Cycle 1’s results are stark proof of this. Just be sure to keep optics discussion out of here, avoid going in circles and repeating arguments, and most importantly, focus on metagame influence and trends that King’s Rock instigates.

Feel free to let us know if you have any further questions; thank you and happy discussing!

 

[Spoontech]

You're right, we should un-ban funbro.



Edit: Yeah obviously they're different. Shadow Tag is strictly superior to Arena Trap, but both are gone because of the negative effects they have on the meta.

Heatran has some obvious issues and the majority stem from Magma Storm. We've seen Block be complex banned on Slowbro (and others I guess) due to the issues it causes. Even things like Block Toxapex really aren't a skill rewarding mechanic and if you want to hand wave it by "just scout lol" then you're playing sub-optimally to scout for a niche set. I'm not saying any one of these things is especially broken (despite your strawman argument claiming I said that) but trapping moves have again and again been problems that need solving.

You could easily say that trapping moves aren't broken on every Pokemon but the same logic applies to Shadow Tag, Moody (poor Bidoof), Double Team etc. Sometimes blanket bans of bad mechanics help more than they hurt.

Edit 2 stop fukin editing:



It was banned because trapping allows a bad mechanic to be detrimental to the game. Obviously Smogon isn't going to ban trapping moves. Seems like the council is unwilling to test Heatran and even if they did it doesn't appear that there's an overwhelming amount of pro-ban support. But keep in mind for a very, VERY long time the community was willing to tolerate Dugtrio, and even test + re-test Shadow Tag through multiple gens. Today it's universally accepted that Dugtrio and similar Pokemon should go nowhere near OU as the effects are horrible to the way the game is played. Trapping moves are currently tolerated but as more and more issues form from them who's to say if in the eventual future the community will finally just say no to a bad mechanic?

Block is complex banned from Showdown because Blockbro could force an endless battle with the combination of Block, Slack off, Recycle + Heal pulse with the PP berry.

 

[Katy]

Short Timleine of SS OU metagame (past months!):​

5 Past great Pokemon:
Was a great Pokemon in the past during the Urshifu-S, Spectrier metagame and it also covered Dragapult pretty well too, however this Pokemon is declining, as people found ways to combat Dragapult and Hydreigon nowadays without being passive. Pokemon such as specially defensive Clefable, Choice Scarf Tapu Fini, Tapu Koko, and Weavile are on a rise, and aren't passive unlike Mandibuzz, which also is pretty reliant on not getting knocked because it needs its Heavy-Duty Boots to counteract to the previous mentioned threats. Also Urshifu-S and Spectriers department means, that Mandibuzz isn't needed that much on teams anymore, and even then Mandibuzz could lose to Sub + Hex + WoW + Nasty Plot Spectrier after being burned and weakened. Mandibuzz clearly lost its impact as a mandatory teammate, other ways where found without being passive and in the current metagame, that Pokemon doesn't fare that well overall.
Once a big threat to account for, even deemend banworthy at one point by a handful of users, but this Pokemon lost its placement in OU, it isn't used that much anymore, as there are too many Pokemon to counter it such as Corviknight, Dragonite, Volcarona, and Scizor, which all threaten it offensively as well. Tapu Bulus rise with great coverage in Stone Edge to hit Flying-types such as Tornadus-T and Zapdos for super effective damage does not help Rillaboom either and Rillaboom has competition in this uprising grassy star. Rillaboom can still work however, with Magnezone as a valuable partner or Kartana as a way to overwhelm their shared checks, but in any way this Pokemon had its peak as one of the top threats to prep for.
Slowbro had its great peak in SS OU, however this Pokemons viability and usage dropped off, it was once a Pokemon which people used to help against Cinderace, Zamazenta-Crowned (during the 2 weeks it got suspected), and it can still help against Garchomp, Landorus-T, Excadrill, and Hawlucha as example, but with Corviknight at an all tiem high checking all four mentioned Pokemon reliable and with the decline of Excadrill and Hawlucha, Slowbro finds itself not that much needed on teams. Other Pokemon such as Tapu Fini, Hippowdon, and Landorus-T can also take on all of them and Tapu Fini can also take on Urshifu-R currently. Slowbro had its peaks but for now, its usage isn't that high because of the aforementioned reasons.
Specially defensive Tyranitar was a great Stealth Rock setter and pick during the Spectrier metagame but has declined alot the recent weeks, if not to say months, sand teams aren't that threatening anymore since most teams have natural checks for sand based Pokemon such as Excadrill as example. Sand in itself declined a lot and therefore made Tyranitar rather unnecessary and with competition of specially defensive Hippowdon on such and similar teams, it finds itself in an awkward placement. It as a standalone breaker is also not great to fit, as with Urshifu-R, Tapu Fini, Landorus-T, and Corviknight as threats it has trouble getting past them, even with a Choice Band set.
The Sets of this Pokemon didn't only rely on abusing Sand but also it is able to check Clefable with its specially defensive support set. However, as mentioned above the team archetype Sand declined and therefore made Excadrills suage pretty low and if teams need a supporter Landorus-T, Heatran, and Hippowdon can fullfill that slot too with great assets on their own; Landorus-T has Knock Off to cripple Pokemon and can withstand a +1 Volcarona, Hippowdons SpD-Set can check Dragapult with having longevity in Slack Off, Heatran can run a wide variety of sets to annoy Pokemon such as Toxapex, Slowking, and Slowbro reliable due to Taunt and for the latter 2 Toxic.

5 Current great Pokemon:
great Pokemon with checking a great amount of Pokemon currently, worth a try, Choice Scarf gives valuable speed control and Calm Mind with Draining Kiss is also worthful. Trapping sets with Whirlpool, Taunt, and Natures Madness are amazing at breaking down passive and fat Pokemon in the long run.
Speedy Pokemon, in fact the 4th naturally fastest Pokemon among the greats, the only three which are afster than it are Zeraora, ragapult, and Tapu Koko, therefore great to run as a speed control with breaking power due to sets such as Swords Dance and Knock Off, or the lesser used Choice Band boosted Knock Off. Priority in Ice Shard is pretty great right now too, with revengekilling Pokemon such as Garchomp, Dragonite, and Dragapult reliably.
Checks a great amount of special wallbreakers currently: Clefable, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Tornadus-T, and Nidoking just to name a few. With Future Sight to force progress and great coverage options depending on your teams needs it shot up as a top tier Pokemon.
Great Pokemon with a decent Speed tier and U-turn packed with Surging Strikes, Close Combat and Aqua Jet makes it one of the best physical wallbreakers at the moment. It can even run Thunder Punch to annoy its switch-ins such as Tapu Fini and Toxapex. Aqua Jet is also a great tool to revengekill bulky Volcarona after a little chip-damage, which is pretty valuable.
Checks a great amount of Pokemon currently, be it Rillaboom, Kartana, Scizor, Heatran, and Urshifu-R it is a great pick with the defensive Dragon Dance set or the supporting set on teams. heal bell is also a great tool to help out its teammates on bulkier teams Dragonite find itself on.

Honorable mentions as current great Pokemon:




5 Pokemon and/or Sets to try out:

Tapu Bulu @ Life Orb
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Horn Leech
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge


Dragapult @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Darts
- Phantom Force
- Fire Blast


Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Thunderbolt


Tapu Lele @ Leftovers
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt


Melmetal @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Acid Armor
- Body Press
- Double Iron Bash
- Ice Punch / Thunder Punch

These are 5 Pokemon / Sets I thought could be worth a try. Obviously Tapu Bulu is in here, as it gained a lot of attraction recently and should not be dismissed at all. Other Pokemon include some Honorable mentions such as Tapu Lele with its Calm Mind set.

Honorable mentions:
as a Spikes stacker with Knock Off and Night Sahde to offset the opposition.
The Iron Defense, Body Press, and Thunderbolt work well together, also Choice Specs is a set worth to try out even with Teleport.
gives momentum due to U-turn, having a good Speed tier in 100 and great coverages and fitting well alongside teammates such as Tapu Koko to increase the Bolt Strike damage output.
Calm Mind sets should be tried out, they are pretty good to overwhelm its checks in Landorus-T and Galarian Slowking, can reliably setup on Pokemon such as Corviknight.
Choice Specs + Trick is a recommandable set to try out.

Conclusion / Closing Words:
I hope you had fun reading it and I hope it helped you to gain some knowledge about the timeline of the SS OU Metagame the recent passing months moreover I hope it helped everyone to gain some knowledge about why some Pokemon dropped / declined in their usage and viability and I hope you'll have a great day!

Thank you for reading! ^.^​

 

[Plushietran]

Short Timleine of SS OU metagame (past months!):​

5 Past great Pokemon:
Was a great Pokemon in the past during the Urshifu-S, Spectrier metagame and it also covered Dragapult pretty well too, however this Pokemon is declining, as people found ways to combat Dragapult and Hydreigon nowadays without being passive. Pokemon such as specially defensive Clefable, Choice Scarf Tapu Fini, Tapu Koko, and Weavile are on a rise, and aren't passive unlike Mandibuzz, which also is pretty reliant on not getting knocked because it needs its Heavy-Duty Boots to counteract to the previous mentioned threats. Also Urshifu-S and Spectriers department means, that Mandibuzz isn't needed that much on teams anymore, and even then Mandibuzz could lose to Sub + Hex + WoW + Nasty Plot Spectrier after being burned and weakened. Mandibuzz clearly lost its impact as a mandatory teammate, other ways where found without being passive and in the current metagame, that Pokemon doesn't fare that well overall.
Once a big threat to account for, even deemend banworthy at one point by a handful of users, but this Pokemon lost its placement in OU, it isn't used that much anymore, as there are too many Pokemon to counter it such as Corviknight, Dragonite, Volcarona, and Scizor, which all threaten it offensively as well. Tapu Bulus rise with great coverage in Stone Edge to hit Flying-types such as Tornadus-T and Zapdos for super effective damage does not help Rillaboom either and Rillaboom has competition in this uprising grassy star. Rillaboom can still work however, with Magnezone as a valuable partner or Kartana as a way to overwhelm their shared checks, but in any way this Pokemon had its peak as one of the top threats to prep for.
Slowbro had its great peak in SS OU, however this Pokemons viability and usage dropped off, it was once a Pokemon which people used to help against Cinderace, Zamazenta-Crowned (during the 2 weeks it got suspected), and it can still help against Garchomp, Landorus-T, Excadrill, and Hawlucha as example, but with Corviknight at an all tiem high checking all four mentioned Pokemon reliable and with the decline of Excadrill and Hawlucha, Slowbro finds itself not that much needed on teams. Other Pokemon such as Tapu Fini, Hippowdon, and Landorus-T can also take on all of them and Tapu Fini can also take on Urshifu-R currently. Slowbro had its peaks but for now, its usage isn't that high because of the aforementioned reasons.
Specially defensive Tyranitar was a great Stealth Rock setter and pick during the Spectrier metagame but has declined alot the recent weeks, if not to say months, sand teams aren't that threatening anymore since most teams have natural checks for sand based Pokemon such as Excadrill as example. Sand in itself declined a lot and therefore made Tyranitar rather unnecessary and with competition of specially defensive Hippowdon on such and similar teams, it finds itself in an awkward placement. It as a standalone breaker is also not great to fit, as with Urshifu-R, Tapu Fini, Landorus-T, and Corviknight as threats it has trouble getting past them, even with a Choice Band set.
The Sets of this Pokemon didn't only rely on abusing Sand but also it is able to check Clefable with its specially defensive support set. However, as mentioned above the team archetype Sand declined and therefore made Excadrills suage pretty low and if teams need a supporter Landorus-T, Heatran, and Hippowdon can fullfill that slot too with great assets on their own; Landorus-T has Knock Off to cripple Pokemon and can withstand a +1 Volcarona, Hippowdons SpD-Set can check Dragapult with having longevity in Slack Off, Heatran can run a wide variety of sets to annoy Pokemon such as Toxapex, Slowking, and Slowbro reliable due to Taunt and for the latter 2 Toxic.

5 Current great Pokemon:
great Pokemon with checking a great amount of Pokemon currently, worth a try, Choice Scarf gives valuable speed control and Calm Mind with Draining Kiss is also worthful. Trapping sets with Whirlpool, Taunt, and Natures Madness are amazing at breaking down passive and fat Pokemon in the long run.
Speedy Pokemon, in fact the 4th naturally fastest Pokemon among the greats, the only three which are afster than it are Zeraora, ragapult, and Tapu Koko, therefore great to run as a speed control with breaking power due to sets such as Swords Dance and Knock Off, or the lesser used Choice Band boosted Knock Off. Priority in Ice Shard is pretty great right now too, with revengekilling Pokemon such as Garchomp, Dragonite, and Dragapult reliably.
Checks a great amount of special wallbreakers currently: Clefable, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Tornadus-T, and Nidoking just to name a few. With Future Sight to force progress and great coverage options depending on your teams needs it shot up as a top tier Pokemon.
Great Pokemon with a decent Speed tier and U-turn packed with Surging Strikes, Close Combat and Aqua Jet makes it one of the best physical wallbreakers at the moment. It can even run Thunder Punch to annoy its switch-ins such as Tapu Fini and Toxapex. Aqua Jet is also a great tool to revengekill bulky Volcarona after a little chip-damage, which is pretty valuable.
Checks a great amount of Pokemon currently, be it Rillaboom, Kartana, Scizor, Heatran, and Urshifu-R it is a great pick with the defensive Dragon Dance set or the supporting set on teams. heal bell is also a great tool to help out its teammates on bulkier teams Dragonite find itself on.

Honorable mentions as current great Pokemon:




5 Pokemon and/or Sets to try out:

Tapu Bulu @ Life Orb
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Horn Leech
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge


Dragapult @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Darts
- Phantom Force
- Fire Blast


Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Thunderbolt


Tapu Lele @ Leftovers
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt


Melmetal @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Acid Armor
- Body Press
- Double Iron Bash
- Ice Punch / Thunder Punch

These are 5 Pokemon / Sets I thought could be worth a try. Obviously Tapu Bulu is in here, as it gained a lot of attraction recently and should not be dismissed at all. Other Pokemon include some Honorable mentions such as Tapu Lele with its Calm Mind set.

Honorable mentions:
as a Spikes stacker with Knock Off and Night Sahde to offset the opposition.
The Iron Defense, Body Press, and Thunderbolt work well together, also Choice Specs is a set worth to try out even with Teleport.
gives momentum due to U-turn, having a good Speed tier in 100 and great coverages and fitting well alongside teammates such as Tapu Koko to increase the Bolt Strike damage output.
Calm Mind sets should be tried out, they are pretty good to overwhelm its checks in Landorus-T and Galarian Slowking, can reliably setup on Pokemon such as Corviknight.
Choice Specs + Trick is a recommandable set to try out.

Conclusion / Closing Words:
I hope you had fun reading it and I hope it helped you to gain some knowledge about the timeline of the SS OU Metagame the recent passing months moreover I hope it helped everyone to gain some knowledge about why some Pokemon dropped / declined in their usage and viability and I hope you'll have a great day!

Thank you for reading! ^.^​

Great post Katy =^.^= its really well made and a good representation of the ssou timeline, i wanted to add some pokemon i wish people would use more, that you didnt include here :

i have talked about this pokemon previously in a post on this thread so i wont talk about it alot, but the tl:dr is that its a really cool breaker that takes advantage of corviknight, pex and slowking

bulk up protective sets have been used in wcop for good success but they never really took off that much so id like to see them being used more

dd sets are fun to use but really underexploredn great wincon with sub dd

as you mentioned in your post above, rillaboom has fallen off really hard from its place as a potentially banworthy offensive threat, although this might come from using the in my opinion inferior choice band set, since swords dance sets are pretty good late game sweepers, although it does have its own issues its a big improvement on the choice band set

 

[Ctann]

It’s interesting to see perception of Rillaboom being at all time lows. It’s easily one of the top threats still and provides team support with its terrain.

I think it’s choice band set lost relevance a long time ago.. approximately around the same time as corviknights surge in usage followed by Weaviles rise from UUBL and Bulkarona becoming the dominant Volcarona spread, which subsequently influenced the rise of Buzzswole and Dragonite.. all of these are particularly effective at punishing the band set.

but as always, the meta game takes time to gradually accept changes in viability

most things it revenges like weavile, cloyster or Zeraora are better off worn down with some prior chip damage.

the flexibility of having a swords dance up it’s sleeve can completely turn a game on its head. I recommend having fun wi wood hammer, as you’re unlikely to be beating any of your most common counters, so wood hammer can have the chance to delete checks like toxapex, slow zapdos, and unaware clefable.






the bulky variants of the above 3 will be unlikely to lose to swords dance Rillaboom, even sub 60%. and unless I’m wrong, there is no spread that can surprise them. Mandibuzz isn’t very popular, so that’s in Rilabooms favour.

I have been surprised by a no item +2 acrobatics before! Otherwise buzzwole is reliable.

this offensive check loses to drain punch, loses to super power too.

reliance on u turn to keep momentum means this is one of the easiest checks to get under its defeatable threshold (~50%). If you’re deciding to run super power that is.


—



have been terrified of this for a long time. Only a very finite list of things like Pex, Magnezone, Fini and Melmetal are supposed to defensively check it.

it’s nice to see it surge in OLT, tho looks to be short lived if the ban on kings rock comes in to spoil the fun.

personal opinion: we should let OU continue a bit with this kings rock trend and see how people adapt to playing against it. It might be valuable to see if after some time being trendy and in vogue, kings rock might not be as utterly ridiculous as it appears.

at the very least, kings rock cloyster might encourage an uptake in choice scarfs and Mach punch. I really think Cloyster can add more downstream value and diversity to the meta with its kings rock set being common enough in OU. As with most things, you just have to plan for it. Why is the uncompetitive-ness of flinch from Jirachi and Togekiss okay, but not cloyster?

additionally, it has a small list of situations it can set up on, such as some variants of corviknight, Garchomp, dragonite, excadrill.. unless you’re running screens or other significant support. I think Cloyster is a little like kartana, specs pult and even heatran, it’s more about making the counter play than having the counter. try your best not to put yourself in a situation where it gets a free turn

we have all frustratingly lost to flinch hax before, whether it’s iron head, rock slide, air slash, etc.

we are probably only a month away from the next trend taking over kings rock, and it’s nice to see cloyster have its moment as le Uber du jour

 

[AM]

I dont agree with the notion above that we should wait and see to adapt around King's Rock because you can do the same coin flip chances with SD Beat Up Weavile too, because it's so easy to force things like Corv in early on due to Weavile's ability to threaten so much. This set is an equal nightmare to deal with due to potentially invalidating anything below Weavile's high speed tier, which is a pretty high benchmark this generation. There's only a handful of very specific Scarfers that can outrun Cloyster at +2 and the pool becomes smaller if they're running Jolly. Scarf Kartana is one example and it only outruns the Adamant versions. Rachi and Togekiss don't have speed boosting moves that also boost their strength, that's one of the big differences between Jirachi/Togekiss and Cloyster where Togekiss only has Nasty Plot. There's also other issues with them as far as using the RNG argument with them goes.

Mons is a game of chance management a lot of times but things like King's rock in conjunction with multi-hit moves is too much and it's not something that has traditional counterplay besides hoping RNG favors the person on the opposite end of King's Rock. Things like the three mentioned above such as Kart, Dragapult, Heatran have counterplay (whether or not they're sufficient a whole separate discussion) that are more constant so I'm not sure why it was a point brought up. Hopefully we can take a page out of Monotype and just remove the item and move on to looking at potential problematic mons than sit with this discussion.

 

[Negative Charge]

King's Rock plays identically in function and purpose in SSOU to BW OU and Monotype. There's no reason to keep it in SSOU given the majority of the council wants it gone. The 60% threshold doesn't even make meaningful sense with seven voters. If a single person changes their mind we go from 57% to 71% ban. To reiterate, a ban threshold with seven people isn’t 60%, it’s 71%. When a council vote splits like this outside the beginning of a gen/DLC it should trigger an automatic suspect test or a vote from a larger, pre-qualified pool of voters (look at OLT results idk).

Democracy is good, vetocracy is bad.

 

[Hugin]

One issue with how this discussion has played out: 50% chance of Flinch is less RNG than 10%, IMO. If you lose to a random King's Rock Rillaboom, that is entirely because you got unlucky vs a meme. If you lose to King's Rock Cloyster, your oppt is playing the long-term ladder odds, and it worked out this time. 50% chance of flinch is similar to someone running Scald or Discharge instead of the higher-damage option. At the point of 50%, it's reasonably likely to come up, so I object to saying that's "more random" than Ice Beam freezes or similar.

 

[Piplz]

Personally, as an outsider who doesn't really play OU much but follows the scene very closely for years, I have three big issues with banning King's Rock:

1) It prevents the totally legitimate Fling+KR. Don't get me wrong this is completely unused on any mon, and the odds of such a thing ever popping up are statistically insignificant. But it's legitimately useable, not uncompetitive in the slightest, and doesn't deserve the boot.
2) It's straight up worse than Serene Grace flinches yet I don't see anyone whining about that. Reminds me when people wanted to ban Gorilla Tactics instead of G-Darm and people were all up in arms about how you can't do that because it's worse than Pure Power (which it is) so you had to ban the mon instead. Feels inconsistent af and like people are just playing favorites when it suits them. G-Darm bad, Cloyster good, got it.
3) The slippery slope that other people have already talked about.

Losing to King's Rock fucking sucks, there's no way around it, of course it does. But I'm failing to see much of a difference between losing to this and losing to crits, losing to moonblast/scald/ice beam/shadowball/whatever, losing to full paras, etc. What's the difference exactly? Sometimes this game leads you to frustrating situations where rng just dictates the outcome of the game. That's simply how Pokemon is.

I understand that when it comes to the end result absolutely nothing of value would be lost if King's Rock was to be banned, but from a philosophical perspective, banning and tiering things is always in conflict with the idea that if you ban too many things or too arbitrarily, then you're not even playing the same game anymore. For the most part, I think Smogon has done a very good job over the years when it comes to keeping things on the correct side of that line, with only the most important sanity checks being added to prevent the game from being a total load of crap (Moody/Evasion/banning blatant ubers/etc), but in this case I just feel like this gets on the wrong side. King's Rock rng is essentially no different than many other kinds of rng and I can't think of any good reason to single it out specifically. Why not ban Ancientpower memes then? Or Acupressure/Starf Berry? Double/Triple Protect? Zap Cannon? Swagger? Razor Fang? There are a LOT of things in pokemon that exist solely for the sake of adding rng layers. You guys up for banning them all?

In my eyes, considering KR fishing is no different from any other kind of rng fishing in the game.... if the mons abusing that strategy end up legitimately being too strong/overbearing/etc then ban the mons. If not then... sucks when it happens but that's just pokemon being pokemon. IMO these kind of "sanity check" bans should only be reserved for things where counterplay is either absurd (running swift and aerial ace against double team spam... yeaaaaah how about no) or basically nonexistent (Moody). KR and flinching in general has more than enough counterplay available in the game to not fall under that umbrella imo.

That said, it's not taken fom an OU game but regardless

ban thunderwave

Turn 10
The opposing Klefki used Thunder Wave!
Slowking is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!
Turn 11
Slowking is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 12
Slowking is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 13
Slowking is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 14
Slowking, come back!
Turn 16
Go! Slowking (Slowking-Galar)!
Turn 17
Slowking is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 18
Slowking, come back!
Turn 22
Go! Slowking (Slowking-Galar)!
Turn 23
Slowking is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 24
Slowking used Future Sight!
Turn 25
Slowking is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 26
Slowking is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 27
☆Piplz: jesus christ
Slowking is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 28
The opposing Hatterene used Psychic!
(Slowking lost 65.3% of its health!)
Slowking fainted!

 

[Ctann]

Personally, as an outsider who doesn't really play OU much but follows the scene very closely for years, I have three big issues with banning King's Rock:

1) It prevents the totally legitimate Fling+KR. Don't get me wrong this is completely unused on any mon, and the odds of such a thing ever popping up are statistically insignificant. But it's legitimately useable, not uncompetitive in the slightest, and doesn't deserve the boot.
2) It's straight up worse than Serene Grace flinches yet I don't see anyone whining about that. Reminds me when people wanted to ban Gorilla Tactics instead of G-Darm and people were all up in arms about how you can't do that because it's worse than Pure Power (which it is) so you had to ban the mon instead. Feels inconsistent af and like people are just playing favorites when it suits them. G-Darm bad, Cloyster good, got it.
3) The slippery slope that other people have already talked about.

Losing to King's Rock fucking sucks, there's no way around it, of course it does. But I'm failing to see much of a difference between losing to this and losing to crits, losing to moonblast/scald/ice beam/shadowball/whatever, losing to full paras, etc. What's the difference exactly? Sometimes this game leads you to frustrating situations where rng just dictates the outcome of the game. That's simply how Pokemon is.

I understand that when it comes to the end result absolutely nothing of value would be lost if King's Rock was to be banned, but from a philosophical perspective, banning and tiering things is always in conflict with the idea that if you ban too many things or too arbitrarily, then you're not even playing the same game anymore. For the most part, I think Smogon has done a very good job over the years when it comes to keeping things on the correct side of that line, with only the most important sanity checks being added to prevent the game from being a total load of crap (Moody/Evasion/banning blatant ubers/etc), but in this case I just feel like this gets on the wrong side. King's Rock rng is essentially no different than many other kinds of rng and I can't think of any good reason to single it out specifically. Why not ban Ancientpower memes then? Or Acupressure/Starf Berry? Double/Triple Protect? Zap Cannon? Swagger? Razor Fang? There are a LOT of things in pokemon that exist solely for the sake of adding rng layers. You guys up for banning them all?

In my eyes, considering KR fishing is no different from any other kind of rng fishing in the game.... if the mons abusing that strategy end up legitimately being too strong/overbearing/etc then ban the mons. If not then... sucks when it happens but that's just pokemon being pokemon. IMO these kind of "sanity check" bans should only be reserved for things where counterplay is either absurd (running swift and aerial ace against double team spam... yeaaaaah how about no) or basically nonexistent (Moody). KR and flinching in general has more than enough counterplay available in the game to not fall under that umbrella imo.

That said, it's not taken fom an OU game but regardless

ban thunderwave

Turn 10
The opposing Klefki used Thunder Wave!
Slowking is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!
Turn 11
Slowking is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 12
Slowking is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 13
Slowking is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 14
Slowking, come back!
Turn 16
Go! Slowking (Slowking-Galar)!
Turn 17
Slowking is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 18
Slowking, come back!
Turn 22
Go! Slowking (Slowking-Galar)!
Turn 23
Slowking is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 24
Slowking used Future Sight!
Turn 25
Slowking is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 26
Slowking is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 27
☆Piplz: jesus christ
Slowking is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 28
The opposing Hatterene used Psychic!
(Slowking lost 65.3% of its health!)
Slowking fainted!

interesting thoughts, if someone is playing the odds with kings rock on ladder, it really is similar to all the various % chance moves..

heck I’ve experimented with paralysis spam and it really is true. It can sometimes win games effortlessly, and sometimes undeservedly. Does this mean paralysis should be banned?

hax Is a part of the game. If the iterations of many games show that cloyster with kings rock is too over powering. Then the problem is cloyster, kings rock is a catalyst. If Weavile is too good with kings rock, then it would be a similar situation.

it might be hard to draw direct parallels to Cinderace, where heavy duty boots arguably was the catalyst to make it broken, as HDB is so popular, but that’s still somewhat similar.

I am actually mighty curious if the metagame would end up with cloyster being decidedly broken (with kings rock). My intuition assumes it wouldn’t be broken, the metagame isn’t very willing to adapt yet, but I might be wrong.



once I started treating cloyster as a legitimate OU threat, and not writing it off as a “hax abuser”, I haven’t struggled to beat it anymore than other threats like dragapult, urshifu, etc. that’s not to say that I don’t lose to it sometimes. It just doesn’t feel as overwhelming. When you’re playing a game against it knowing that you don’t need to risk the ~41% flinch by playing a certain way, it’s less of a threat.

in short, I think the meta isn’t respecting this as a genuine/legitimate threat yet, because it doesn’t want to, for whatever reason. It was a few months ago I was terrorised a few times on high ladder by this thing so much I determined to always have a check/solution to it on every team. Like any threat, you learn to adapt. In this case it’s minimising the chances that it gets a “free turn”.

—
Example of slow meta adaptation:



Weavile has been good for a really long time, like I’m talking good since the days Volcarona was still in UU, and Cinderace wasn’t banned yet. But Weavile was an outsider in UUBL, and it was one of the most fun anti-meta threats you could get.

eventually it had its moment to surge in popularity, and enjoyed a phase where its stabs were almost in resisted by the top 20 at the time.


the metagame was slow to adapt to Weavile, but it did. Zapdos and Mandibuzz have become rarer, fini and Urshifu are more common.
—



Maybe we might even see some complete curve balls like inner focus Lucario hitting 1% usage with all these ice type threats

 

[Riselol]

Hey everyone.

I absolutely am loving the meta shift that we are currently in the middle of. The VGC metagame fluctuates akin to any other. After a decade of competing in the Pokémon TCG, it feels eerily similar how counters just pop up out of the blue once something rises to prominence. One 'mon rises, three step up to counter it. We are seeing more diversity than ever in terms of sets and spreads, and more viability than ever thanks to seemingly infinite options. I've personally switched to Hyper offense with screens and have been seeing much more success than my balance or stall teams - which I have loved since I was initially using Seismitoad in the early stages of SW/SH OU. Things have progressed quite a bit since then.

Where some 'Mons have disappointed me personally (Dragonite, Weavile) - others have been stellar. I actually can't get enough of Galarian Moltres behind Aurora Veil. I have been literally 6-0ing teams pretty consistently with it. Initially I wrote it off as a gimmick but it is actually quite a serious threat.

Moltres-Galar @ Weakness Policy
Berserk / Timid
252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
-Fiery Wrath
-Hurricane
-Agility
-Nasty Plot

Something as simple as running double dance on my Landorus-T over the standard set has accumulated many free wins as my opponents are conditioned to expect the standard SR defensive spreads or the latest AV set. I mean, I am at the point where I am using Alolan-Ninetails as a starter, and loving it, too. Stealth Rocks will always be good but man it feels nice to find different avenues to win games.

As good as the Slowpoke line is, you can see the metagame adapting around it based on the Surge of Dark types that can set up after a correctly predicted Slowtwin switch in. This is why banning something isn't always necessary. The metagame naturally fleshes itself out.

I believe that there is even more creativity and viability to be discovered the more technical and apparent things become. Keep experimenting and don't be afraid to test the limits. This format is wide open. There are plenty of things that are still undiscovered, waiting for someone bold enough to test the waters.

 

[Endrism]

2) It's straight up worse than Serene Grace flinches yet I don't see anyone whining about that.

Yes and No.

On paper it seems like Serene Grace would absolutely be worse than King's Rock + Cloyster, but it's more complicated than that.
If we look at and , there's a glaring problem with their strats.

1. Lack of flinch moves.
Togekiss and Jirachi in theory have a higher flinch chance, but the problem being that they can only really use that insane 60% flinch with Air Slash and Iron Head respectively. Meanwhile Cloyster can use both Icicle Spear and Rock Blast to cover most of the meta, making tanking the flinches not as much as a viable option as with the Serene Duo.

2. Damage Output
Togekiss gets Nasty Plot, which provides huge damage, but Togekiss has a very mediocre speed tier. This means it needs to get off a Thunder Wave or have webs active to be effective. Jirachi is slightly better with its 100 speed tier, but a lot of things can still outpace and outdamage it making flinch strats with both of them kind of bleh. Meanwhile Cloyster has debatably the best setup move outside of Ubers, being able to boost its speed and attack 2 stages at once, outspeeding the entire meta. With its Rock-Ice coverage, and being able to go +2 on most physical mons due to it's outrageous defense, it becomes a huge problem after only 1 shell smash.

Now if we were to ban King's Rock, that would solve this problem with removing a coin flip deciding most games involving Cloyster, but funny though of if Cloyster got banned, I feel like people would start experimenting with:

@ King's Rock
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tail Slap
- Rock Blast
- Bullet Seed
- Knock Off

No setup move, but way more coverage. 3 Multi-hit moves with that coin flip flinch. A 115 speed tier, and Knock Off to top it off puts together a glass cannon that I think could actually be pretty okay.

 

[Ian_Yo]

KR and flinching in general has more than enough counterplay available in the game to not fall under that umbrella imo.
]

can you elaborate on this because all i see is getting lucky and inner focus

 

[onlyheretocomplain]

Now if we were to ban King's Rock, that would solve this problem with removing a coin flip deciding most games involving Cloyster, but funny though of if Cloyster got banned, I feel like people would start experimenting with:

@ King's Rock
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tail Slap
- Rock Blast
- Bullet Seed
- Knock Off

No setup move, but way more coverage. 3 Multi-hit moves with that coin flip flinch. A 115 speed tier, and Knock Off to top it off puts together a glass cannon that I think could actually be pretty okay.

There's good reasons to think that Cloyster is unique and Cinccino wouldn't take its place. After a SS even Adamant Cloyster outspeeds every other viable mon and all Scarfers underneath base 95 Speed. Cinccino is itself pretty fast but the meta has plenty of tools to handle a +0 115 Speed mon. Cinccino's coverage leaves it walled by Steel-types, which Cloyster can all hit at least neutrally. 95 Attack without a boosting move/item isn't enough even with its high BP attacks. Most importantly, though, Tail Slap is a contact move. It loses 5/6th of its health to any Rocky Helmet user, is nearly guaranteed activate Static/Flame Body and it's straight up 1HKO'd by Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn.

Cloyster's combination of great offensive typing, a great boosting move and speed is what makes it so good at abusing King's Rock. Every other multi-hit user lacks one of those qualities.

 

[theotherguytm]

can you elaborate on this because all i see is getting lucky and inner focus

They're not saying you should run anti-flinch counterplay. They're saying you should run anti-Cloyster counterplay, like you should with any other mon. Of which there is several forms:

1. Hazards. A Cloyster with KR is a Cloyster without HDB. Stealth Rock will knock 1/4 of its health off, and that makes it much harder for Cloyster to setup, as well as avoid KOs from various attacks while attempting the sweep. Toxic Spikes will also make its sweep time-limited and Spikes can wear it down even further.
2. Priority. A Cloyster with KR is a Cloyster without White Herb or Focus Sash. Simply revenging Cloyster with any priority user should do the trick. In the event it runs Ice Shard it lacks coverage for Steels due to its 4MSS, so that is a substandard option, but you may want to keep your priority user healthy just in case. Prankster moves can also help here.
3. Faster Scarfers not weak to Ice Shard (if it runs it). Pretty obvious.
4. Status to punish setup. Taunt, WOW and Twave will all stop a Cloyster sweep before it even starts, while Toxic can vastly limit its team on the field, especially in combination with hazards and priority.
5. Pokemon that are tough to wear down and avoid the 2HKO from +2 Cloyster. If your only check to Cloyster was Aegislash without King's Shield and you let Aegi get chipped in the earlygame, can you really say you got haxxed when you get flinched? Sure, sometimes it's unavoidable and you have to go for the 41/59, but in that regard Cloyster is actually way worse than other sweepers because they won't even give you that roll. If your only check to Volcarona is Pex and it KOs it with Psychic, did you get unlucky with coverage choice, or was there a way you have played the game differently or built your team in a way to stack Volc checks and avoid that? Same goes for Cloyster. This is what separates great players from mearly good ones: their ability to manage risk.

I don't personally believe that we should strive to keep King's Rock in OU for the sake of it, but IMO Cloyster is just a flavour-of-the-month off-beat sweeper that, like all off-beat sweepers, cleans out unprepared teams. Arctozolt, Blaziken, Venusaur, Crawdaunt, Terrakion, Primarina, Mamoswine, all of these are capable of 6-0ing teams out of nowhere. So why is Cloyster any different? The answer is, it isn't. It will claim some free wins, get a rise on the VR, people will start prepping for it, it will nose-dive in viablity and a different sweeper will take its place. Just because it has a 16% chance to flinch Pex twice in a row does not make in any more uncompetitive then SubRoost Kyurem fishing for freezes all day, and no-one seems to be complaining about that (Freeze Dry has 32 PP, so on average it will get 3 freezes a game).

 

[Ctann]

I don't personally believe that we should strive to keep King's Rock in OU for the sake of it, but IMO Cloyster is just a flavour-of-the-month off-beat sweeper that, like all off-beat sweepers, cleans out unprepared teams. Arctozolt, Blaziken, Venusaur, Crawdaunt, Terrakion, Primarina, Mamoswine, all of these are capable of 6-0ing teams out of nowhere. So why is Cloyster any different? The answer is, it isn't. It will claim some free wins, get a rise on the VR, people will start prepping for it, it will nose-dive in viablity and a different sweeper will take its place. Just because it has a 16% chance to flinch Pex twice in a row does not make in any more uncompetitive then SubRoost Kyurem fishing for freezes all day, and no-one seems to be complaining about that (Freeze Dry has 32 PP, so on average it will get 3 freezes a game).

well said, and preparing for cloyster is something any good team needs to do. There’s no sense in whinging if you lost to a 16% chance (back to back flinches

I’ve won and lost games on chances much lower or higher than that, like missing two steam eruptions in a row, or dodging 3 draco meteors in a row. Even a rock slide 27% flinch (because running stone edge sucks) has won me some clutch games because I plan around the fact that the rock coverage is only 75BP and not 100BP, and that a 27% flinch might completely turn a game.

Anything can happen, just plan for the odds to be in your favour!

Kings rock might be annoying/busted, or whatever, but my intuition is that after a little more time in the meta, Cloyster will be less of a top threat when people figure out how to deal with it better. Not a fan of banning kings rock without enough evidence that the item itself is broken.. I just think Cloyster is a good user.

 

[Ol_dragon]

They're not saying you should run anti-flinch counterplay. They're saying you should run anti-Cloyster counterplay, like you should with any other mon. Of which there is several forms:

1. Hazards. A Cloyster with KR is a Cloyster without HDB. Stealth Rock will knock 1/4 of its health off, and that makes it much harder for Cloyster to setup, as well as avoid KOs from various attacks while attempting the sweep. Toxic Spikes will also make its sweep time-limited and Spikes can wear it down even further.
2. Priority. A Cloyster with KR is a Cloyster without White Herb or Focus Sash. Simply revenging Cloyster with any priority user should do the trick. In the event it runs Ice Shard it lacks coverage for Steels due to its 4MSS, so that is a substandard option, but you may want to keep your priority user healthy just in case. Prankster moves can also help here.
3. Faster Scarfers not weak to Ice Shard (if it runs it). Pretty obvious.
4. Status to punish setup. Taunt, WOW and Twave will all stop a Cloyster sweep before it even starts, while Toxic can vastly limit its team on the field, especially in combination with hazards and priority.
5. Pokemon that are tough to wear down and avoid the 2HKO from +2 Cloyster. If your only check to Cloyster was Aegislash without King's Shield and you let Aegi get chipped in the earlygame, can you really say you got haxxed when you get flinched? Sure, sometimes it's unavoidable and you have to go for the 41/59, but in that regard Cloyster is actually way worse than other sweepers because they won't even give you that roll. If your only check to Volcarona is Pex and it KOs it with Psychic, did you get unlucky with coverage choice, or was there a way you have played the game differently or built your team in a way to stack Volc checks and avoid that? Same goes for Cloyster. This is what separates great players from mearly good ones: their ability to manage risk.

I don't personally believe that we should strive to keep King's Rock in OU for the sake of it, but IMO Cloyster is just a flavour-of-the-month off-beat sweeper that, like all off-beat sweepers, cleans out unprepared teams. Arctozolt, Blaziken, Venusaur, Crawdaunt, Terrakion, Primarina, Mamoswine, all of these are capable of 6-0ing teams out of nowhere. So why is Cloyster any different? The answer is, it isn't. It will claim some free wins, get a rise on the VR, people will start prepping for it, it will nose-dive in viablity and a different sweeper will take its place. Just because it has a 16% chance to flinch Pex twice in a row does not make in any more uncompetitive then SubRoost Kyurem fishing for freezes all day, and no-one seems to be complaining about that (Freeze Dry has 32 PP, so on average it will get 3 freezes a game).

If we actually take a look at what pokemons fulfill these criteria we notice that the best counterplay tois status.
Every other form is either susceptible to RNG or not so easy to fit on every team.
Stealth rock will help for sure and are needed to help many scarfers/priority users get the kill, but aren't as good as against, which likes to come in and out frequently. In factneeds to get in only once to sweep.
The only priority users in the vrs that can OHKO it areand. The latter need rocks to be up and guts to be activated.
For scarfers the choice is a bit wider, as,,,andcan do the job and there are other options in the C rank. That being said, many teams rn don't have any scarfer or use one that is outsped by cloyster, likeor.
The whole debate was generated by the fact that cloyster can break past its defensive counterplay thanks to king's rock turning situations where it should loose always to 59% of the times

 

[theotherguytm]

If we actually take a look at what pokemons fulfill these criteria we notice that the best counterplay tois status.
Every other form is either susceptible to RNG or not so easy to fit on every team.
Stealth rock will help for sure and are needed to help many scarfers/priority users get the kill, but aren't as good as against, which likes to come in and out frequently. In factneeds to get in only once to sweep.
The only priority users in the vrs that can OHKO it areand. The latter need rocks to be up and guts to be activated.
For scarfers the choice is a bit wider, as,,,andcan do the job and there are other options in the C rank. That being said, many teams rn don't have any scarfer or use one that is outsped by cloyster, likeor.
The whole debate was generated by the fact that cloyster can break past its defensive counterplay thanks to king's rock turning situations where it should loose always to 59% of the times

I largely agree with what you said, but I wanted to add a couple of cavitats.

Firstly, yes there is a short list of priority users that can OHKO it, but you shouldn't have to KO it from full. As you mentioned, Rocks drop it to 75%, and then it will take chip damage as it's sets up. If your priority user needs it chipped to revenge it, then you should be willing to sac a mon to get that chip (playing VS HO 101). Cloyster is not a theat unless it sets up, so unless you have a Rillaboom in the back, make it pay for setting up. Most non-resisted priority users in OU can do 25%+ with priority, for instance:
0 Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 73-87 (30.2 - 36%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (You also tank 1 hit if you're healthy)
252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 132-156 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (You tank anything but Liquidation, so Ice Shard variants need to play mind games to beat a healthy Bisharp even at full, which is another reason they suck.)
252 Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 80-95 (33.1 - 39.4%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Exact damage may vary depending on your spread. Out-priorities bad Ice Shard.)
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 67-81 (27.8 - 33.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (Aegi Gang. Aegi Gang. Who is Dragapult. Bottom Text.)
I won't even bother putting the Boomer calc lol, you even tank bad Ice Shard.

As for your point about scarfers... Yes, that is how choosing a scarfer works. If my scarfer is slower than Venusaur under Sun, and my only switch-in to Grass/Fire under Sun is Heatran, I'm losing to Venusaur, because of Earth Power being more common than Sludge Bomb. If my scarfer is slower than Cloyster after a Shell Smash and my only switch-in to Cloyster loses to a flinch, I'm losing to Cloyster... 41% of the time. Do you see what I mean about Cloyster being worse than other sweepers? Yes, sometimes it gets lucky and gets multiple flinches and just wins, but sometimes that Volcarona is Safeguard and just wins.

he whole debate was generated by the fact that cloyster can break past its defensive counterplay thanks to king's rock turning situations where it should loose always to 59% of the times

Should it lose? I think this is the crux of the argument here, that Cloyster somehow "should" lose against mons that can take one hit from it. Any other sweeper would just always win in these situations, or at the minimum be set-dependant. Cloyster is only OU-viable because counterplay that can only take one hit from it isn't good enough 41% of the time, which is still against the Cloyster player on average. If a team loses to 1 Cloyster flinch, then it is Cloyster-weak, just as a team which loses to 1 crit from Kartana's Leaf Blade is Kartana-weak (and Kart is much better at fishing for crits over a game than Cloyster is at gambling on a single flinch at the exact right moment).

Reminder that you are more likely to land 2 Focus Misses in a row than be flinched by Cloyster.

 

[pulsar512b]

well said, and preparing for cloyster is something any good team needs to do. There’s no sense in whinging if you lost to a 16% chance (back to back flinches

I’ve won and lost games on chances much lower or higher than that, like missing two steam eruptions in a row, or dodging 3 draco meteors in a row. Even a rock slide 27% flinch (because running stone edge sucks) has won me some clutch games because I plan around the fact that the rock coverage is only 75BP and not 100BP, and that a 27% flinch might completely turn a game.

every vgc player ever: oh you have a 41% chance to lose and you're complaining about that hax? HOW ABOUT 30% IVE LOST A THOUSAND GAMES TO ROCK SLIDE FLINCHING

my concern is that there's very few ways to have pokemon that effectively check cloyster that are not a) easy as hell to wear down/dont have recovery 2) one flinch=lose
The only real priority users that can deal with it effectively would be Rillaboom (which, yeah, fair.) maybe bisharp (you have to play sucker punch mindgames which uh does anyone actually want to do that? also easy to wear down w/ pult etc), maybe some band aegi or something.

Firstly, yes there is a short list of priority users that can OHKO it, but you shouldn't have to KO it from full. As you mentioned, Rocks drop it to 75%, and then it will take chip damage as it's sets up. If your priority user needs it chipped to revenge it, then you should be willing to sac a mon to get that chip (playing VS HO 101). Cloyster is not a theat unless it sets up, so unless you have a Rillaboom in the back, make it pay for setting up. Most non-resisted priority users in OU can do 25%+ with priority, for instance:
0 Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 73-87 (30.2 - 36%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (You also tank 1 hit if you're healthy)
252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 132-156 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (You tank anything but Liquidation, so Ice Shard variants need to play mind games to beat a healthy Bisharp even at full, which is another reason they suck.)
252 Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 80-95 (33.1 - 39.4%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Exact damage may vary depending on your spread. Out-priorities bad Ice Shard.)
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 67-81 (27.8 - 33.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (Aegi Gang. Aegi Gang. Who is Dragapult. Bottom Text.)
I won't even bother putting the Boomer calc lol, you even tank bad Ice Shard.

Most of these calcs don't actually matter, since you often will not be able to tank one icicle/rock blast from it (only ones that can are Scizor if healthy plus even then you have to be at full, have HDB, and even then it's still a roll if spdef, Bisharp which is still a roll but also has Shenanigans with sucker punch, and technically Aegislash, if it's in shield, which leaves the possibility of a game ending flinch in the air). For a priority move to take it out, it basically needs to be able to do this from 75% (if it's a free setup for it on something forced out like a bulky lando or something) or perhaps arguably something like 40% if it gets hit, which most of these don't do. Add screens and yeah... not happening mate. Also worth noting that Aegi isn't exactly good, and it's not like Bisharp, Scizor, or Rillaboom are super easy to find places for on teams (although they are certainly not like, impossible). Also, crits and chip fuck all of this up but that's not too important, just wanted to note it.

calcs for nerds

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 180-215 (66.4 - 79.3%) -- approx. 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 57-68 (21 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

and +2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Scizor: 240-285 (69.9 - 83%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Scizor: 57-68 (16.6 - 19.8%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 315-370 (120.6 - 141.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 135-165 (51.7 - 63.2%) -- approx. 2HKO

So yeah... kinda rough.

So let's look through the VR and see what options we have in every rank from B- and up that can't just get flinched once and gg by a shell smashed cloyster with icicle spear, rock blast, and ice shard (which is basically the only set ppl are running/care about/is legit). I will try to be as generous as possible, but keep it within the main sets. When I'm unsure if a set is used or not I'll put it in, assuming it has more defensive investment I'm also gonna assume no rocks or other hazards, and not worry about the mon killing Cloyster, although those cases will be marked with asterisks. I'll also put it in a spoiler and summarize it at the bottom.

text wall sorry

S obviously has none considering both of those are weak to ice lol
S- doesn't:
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 230-275 (59.5 - 71.2%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
A+:
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 320-380 (81.2 - 96.4%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
uh what i didnt know it almost killed even w/o flinch. people also dont run full def clef i think usually some spdef is put on it for pult but the point stands
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 275-330 (68.7 - 82.5%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
wat
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 290-345 (73.6 - 87.5%) -- approx. 2HKO
uh what ok ig
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 135-160 (44.4 - 52.6%) -- approx. 9.8% chance to 2HKO
this is messy but i'll count Toxapex as a check with about a million asterisks as this is if full physdef and not taking rocks
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 180-215 (52.7 - 63%) -- approx. 2HKO
A:
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 215-260 (61 - 73.8%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 290-345 (111.9 - 133.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 135-160 (32.8 - 38.9%) -- approx. 1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
finally we have one without an asterisk, wait what, it has asterisks too? it doesn't have recovery? but yeah this is actually p legit
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 170-200 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- approx. 61.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
im gonna let this through but put about a thousand asterisks after it
A-
bisharp ive already given calcs above so wont go over it again except to note that it's not really good as an answer
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 660-780 (92.4 - 109.2%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 210-255 (50.2 - 61%) -- approx. 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
tbf ppl dont apparently run full def? so doesn't count
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Magnezone: 120-140 (42.7 - 49.8%) -- approx. 3HKO
magnezone i suppose counts, although again asterisks
rilla, sciz we already talked about but
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 254-300 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
so can be flinched down/dies with fairly minimal chip
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 210-255 (62.8 - 76.3%) -- approx. 2HKO
B+
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 260-315 (64.3 - 77.9%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Rotom-Wash: 220-260 (72.3 - 85.5%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 170-200 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO
oh we found another, although again asterisks needed here due to chip and not all being hdb
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 335-405 (82.9 - 100.2%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
B+
aegi we talked about already
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 545-650 (128.5 - 153.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 335-395 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- approx. 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Reuniclus: 330-390 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- approx. 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 285-335 (70.5 - 82.9%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 325-385 (107.9 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

summary:
HDB Slowbro without chip
Fully physdef Toxapex without chip
Melmetal (altho easy to wear down)
Physdef fini without any chip and some low rolls
Almost buzzwole but needs full health and low rolls

Add this to our already established list of "good checks" which is.. Bisharp? Maybe? and ig rilla
There might be some lele stopping ice shard interactions that help occasionally with stuff, but i'm not gonna count that due to the specificity of this.
As for the scarfers cited above (Hydreigon, Victini, Kartana, Zapdos-Galar, and Blace), ignoring that scarf Zapg, Hydrei, and Victini are pretty bad, most of these are also kinda ugh and need the scarfer to be untouched (even rocks is often enough) and not get flinched which admittedly is fairly unlikely with shard- calcs in spoiler again

scarfer calcs

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos-Galar: 254-300 (79.1 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 254-300 (78.1 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 58-69 (17 - 20.2%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 96-114 (38.8 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (note that it's usually way less with repeated rocks)
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 93-109 (35.9 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Thus, the only 'good' scarfers are like, Victini, Kartana, and maybe blacephalon. We can probably safely exclude scarf victini from this discussion due to it basically being the worst victini set atm.

So yeah, if your team doesn't have rilla, scarf victini/blace, Slowbro, Toxapex, Melmetal, Fini, or maybe Bisharp/Buzzwole running fairly specific sets with little or no chip, you have a 41% chance of just losing (assuming you have only one thing that doesn't get killed from above), to be generous. Plus half the time you need those mons for other staples on the teams e.g. Buzzwole for Kartana and thus cannot rely on them.
This is highly restricting to teambuilding, and as such Cloyster or King's Rock needs to be banned (probably king's rock due to it's arguably uncompetitive nature).

if you read until the end im amazed and love you, remember that this is all a game and to take time for yourself. whatever you're going through rn is temporary and this too shall pass. if you're having a rough time and need to talk to someone feel free to dm me here or on discord (PulsieTheDulsie#3895). have a good day.
edit: forgot to add rilla to the list of checks (altho even then, easy to chip down/flinch with ice shard)
also id like to note that screens makes all these calcs even more favorable to the cloyster side

 

[Nebula27]

I'll chuck my two cents on this cloyster issue with the preface that I only play on the lower ladder (1200s-1400s) so I may not understand what the problem is like at a higher level.

Neither need a ban, its just unnecessary. Primarily because its not relatively difficult to play around a cloyster by applying enough offensive pressure to prevent it from coming in with multiple popular threats (dragapult, fish-ifu, koko, zeraora, etc) and underrated viable picks (defensive Wash-tom, buzzwole, bisharp etc) being able to OHKO or 2HKO it. I would argue that, with so many dangers to it present in the meta, they simply outplayed you if they were able to get it in for free. On top of that, many of the walls it wants to setup against can run the pivot moves (blissey, clefable, defog corv) that allow you to easily predict the opponent bringing in cloyster and bring in your own counter before it can SS.

Maybe the people running it at low ladder don't understand how to get a sweeper on the field (I'm certainly garbage at it) but the current meta already encourages teams that make good counter-play relatively easy. The only reason I could see a ban being reasonable is that most players find it boring and un-fun.

Thanks for reading!

 

[SLDR]

I think this Cloyster-King's Rock issue leans towards to a complex ban. What I mean by this is, neither Cloyster nor King's Rock are too strong by themselves. King's Rock is pure cheese, nothing more, but even then it's only really decent odds cheesy alongside Skill Linkers / multihit moves users. Furthermore, Cloyster is the only Pokémon that fits this category that utilizes King's Rock well. Banning King's Rock because ONE Pokémon is mildly annoying with it and bringing hypocritical arguments about competitiveness is therefore stupid to me because those arguments should have been made from the start and not when discussions about Cloyster rise. King's Rock has never been a problem, just a low chance cheese at the cost of an entire item slot. On the other hand, Cloyster itself is definitely not over the top or broken with King's Rock as proven by it's place in the viability ranking and usage stats.

If we go by the (correct) assumption that banning King's Rock because of Cloyster is stupid, the only thing we should look at is if Cloyster himself is broken, with or without King's Rock. We all agree that without it isn't, else we would raise the argument for other items or just simply without bringing items into the discussion, so all we have left is Cloyster with King's Rock. It's basically the same situation of Cinderace and HDB, if the two things together are broken but the two elements are not broken by themselves, ban the whole Pokémon because items can be run by other Pokémon and be completely fine. Avoid complex ban as much as possible.

For reference, I don't think King's Rock Cloyster is a problem as I simply never had issues dealing with it.
That's what I think about this situation.

 

[ant4456]

Not banning something solely because it's not good in the current meta is a weak argument in my opinion. If removing King's Rock would only effect one Pokemon, then what value is lost upon its deletion? And if it's really good, then it's really good because it got its odds.
Other forms of luck are part of Pokemon because they are deeply integrated. But there is no argument for bans such as Arena Trap that cannot be used for Kings Rock being "uncompetitive", because most of what we see as uncompetitive is... things we don't like.

Is evasion more uncompetitive than dealing with a 41% chance for your hard counter to be irrelevant to the match? Because other Pokemon can use this as a gimmick, such as Beat Up. I can argue that if you want to deal with evasion, just use Haze or hit 4head, and that if you lost to a miss it's just part of the game. A lot of arguments against a King's Rock ban on this thread are very, very headed towards bad faith, with statements like about how people who complain about Kings Rock are just whining, that they should just be better prepared, and other things. And this isn't just Kings Rock I believe this extends to, even one game effected to a Sand Veil Pokemon getting the luck it needs is kinda stupid in my opinion. Not because luck shouldn't win/effect any game, but because I think it's uncompetitive and easy to remove. Critical hits are just part of the game, but using that argument for say, one single item, is eye-rollable because at that point, tiers that ban Pokemon shouldn't be part of the game, and are just a stupid concept we made up, so we aren't playing Pokemon.

Smogon is a version of Pokemon that we believe is more fun from a competitive stand-point. Stop trying to remove the human element, since at that rate, Smogon itself isn't actually Pokemon because we got rid of evasion, or got rid of Arena Trap, or created tiers.

 

[The Funky Reason]

Banning something solely because it's not good in the current meta is a weak argument in my opinion. If removing King's Rock would only effect one Pokemon, then what value is lost upon its deletion? And if it's really good, then it's really good because it got its odds.
Other forms of luck are part of Pokemon because they are deeply integrated. But there is no argument for bans such as Arena Trap that cannot be used for Kings Rock being "uncompetitive", because most of what we see as uncompetitive is... things we don't like.

Is evasion more uncompetitive than dealing with a 41% chance for your hard counter to be irrelevant to the match? Because other Pokemon can use this as a gimmick, such as Beat Up. I can argue that if you want to deal with evasion, just use Haze or hit 4head, and that if you lost to a miss it's just part of the game. A lot of arguments against a King's Rock ban on this thread are very, very headed towards bad faith, with statements like about how people who complain about Kings Rock are just whining, that they should just be better prepared, and other things. And this isn't just Kings Rock I believe this extends to, even one game effected to a Sand Veil Pokemon getting the luck it needs is kinda stupid in my opinion. Not because luck shouldn't win effect any game, but because I think it's uncompetitive and easy to remove. Critical hits are just part of the game, but using that argument for say, one single item, is eye-rollable because at that point, tiers that ban Pokemon shouldn't be part of the game, and are just a stupid concept we made up, so we aren't playing Pokemon.

Smogon is a version of Pokemon that we believe is more fun from a competitive stand-point. Stop trying to remove the human element, since at that rate, Smogon itself isn't actually Pokemon because we got rid of evasion, or got rid of Arena Trap, or created tiers.

1. If king's rock is only broken on one pokemon, then we ban the pokemon. Not surprising, not new. You just want to give special treatment for cloyster for some reason. This discussion has happened 100 times this gen alone. Y'all saying this just need to nut up and ask for a Cloyster ban.

2. Lots of things can hax past checks rn. One 20% drop from pult for example lets it get passed many checks. As mentioned before Kart's leaf blade, Bisharp's 30% iron head, Weavile's 30% crash, the list goes on and on but y'all get the idea. There are even some pokemon like kyurem and lele that have to get one 50/50 correct during the course of the whole game to get past their checks. There is one thing cloyster doesn't have in common with these other sweepers and that's that the other sweepers come in multiple times while cloyster has to go for the sweep. He has the "hawlucha" syndrome where he only has one shot to sweep, making these hax scenarios coming up even less. The point is where so we draw the line on hax? Togekiss air slash does the same thing but has a 60% chance. On the basis that a 41% chance to flinch passed things for a sweep is somehow uncompetitive, we should have to ban serene grace on toge right? Please explain the huge difference here. If I set up agility + plot on toge it is the same scenario. For those who would say "but that's not a good set": if that is the difference maker, nut up and ask for a cloyster ban.

 

[Ctann]

ant4456 , it’s less about saying hax is okay, even tho it’s already present in other forms, and more saying that, cloyster can be banned if it’s broken, and it’s likely that cloyster isn’t too good for OU.

ive flinched past checks with icicle crash before, in those same instances, I don’t mind if it doesn’t flinch, because a sub 50% corviknight or clefable is much more manageable to the next switch in (based on the team build). does that mean Weavile is too much?

pulsar512b , there’s a small list of Pokémon cloyster can get an easy set up opportunity on. If you have 2+ of those Pokémon on the same team and a 59% check, then you need a mitigation strategy to prevent the 41% chance you get swept by it.

example: if you have a Mandibuzz, brave bird corviknight and Garchomp without fire or toxic on the same team, you probably will struggle vs cloyster.

example 2: you have a banded Weavile on your team , and your best cloyster answers are Fini and Melmetal. If you don’t want to roll the dice on flinches, try your best not to lock into ice attacks on Weavile unless you absolutely have to.

—

just a thought provoking question, would a strong focus blast user be considered broken if it could get past its checks with a 49% chance of two focus blasts connecting? Surely you’d just build teams that could minimise the chances of instant loss with a double focus blast.