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Ladder STABmons (the old one)
- Thread starter EV
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Has Kyurem-White ever been considered for unbanning? Kyurem-Black is surprisingly bad in STABmons (I should know: I use it anyway), and Kyurem-White... I think the biggest thing it gets out of this meta is Freeze Dry?
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Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
its because unlike kyublack kyurem white (along with black) has way more diversity on the special side then the physical side. getting stuff like draco, earth power, ice beam, fusion flare, and whatnot. the problem isnt that "it doesnt get anything new barring spacial rend" its that "it already HAS what makes it good" and adding more to it wont help its destructiveness. of course kyub black gets the famed bolt beam, but draco bolt beam pales in comparason to dragon/ice/fire/ground coverage with turbo(let alone freeze dry included), walled only by the blob herself. its wallbreaking power would just be insane, it even does ~37% to chansey with draco meteor, which allthough pathetic, is very very powerful on chanseys special bulk for a neutral hit.
EV
Banned deucer.
There is no more council. I speak for myself. End of story. I'm editing/deleting posts that continue to discuss the topic.
Ghoul King I don't think Kyurem-B is bad at all. It may have an unfortunate weakness to a common attack type (Steel) and struggle in beating said types (Scizor, Aegislash namely) but thanks to setup, which it didn't have before, and Mold Breaker, which ignores stuff like Unaware, it is very potent under the right circumstances. It tends to require a little more support than other setup, but it can even stomach Diggersby FakeSpeed and hit back with SE Ice STAB. Big threat imo.
Ghoul King I don't think Kyurem-B is bad at all. It may have an unfortunate weakness to a common attack type (Steel) and struggle in beating said types (Scizor, Aegislash namely) but thanks to setup, which it didn't have before, and Mold Breaker, which ignores stuff like Unaware, it is very potent under the right circumstances. It tends to require a little more support than other setup, but it can even stomach Diggersby FakeSpeed and hit back with SE Ice STAB. Big threat imo.
... Mold Breaker ignores Unaware? That's not what's happened when I've been playing. I stopped running Dragon Dance months ago because I needed priority more and the damage did not go up against Quagsire and Clefable, even if I had 2 or more Dragon Dances.
EV
Banned deucer.
Yes. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Mold_Breaker_(Ability)
I have a replay I can post showing me breaking through a Quagsire with Sub+DD+Icicle Crash. I think it's in the sample teams thread.
Speaking of losses to Dremz....
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-202291654
Was beaten by The Reptile in a gg
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-202291654
Was beaten by The Reptile in a gg
What About Torkoal?
Torkoal @ Leftovers
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Searing Shot
- Yawn
Torkoal suffers from aggron syndrome in being unable to heal itself. this is only compounded by being unviable as a tank or restalker
This isn't a very valid argument anymore; Thundurus is also Stealth Rock weak but was put on suspect. Kyurem-Black has Roost for bulky DD sets if it wants to, so it's not as valid. It's got the bulk to pull this off, unlike Thundurus, so I don't see how this holds it back from being too strong.
Not really. Bullet Punch will never OHKO, and a +1 Fusion Bolt has a likely chance to OHKO uninvested Scizor after Stealth Rock. Invested are always 2HKOed by it, so the point is moot. Scizor can hurt it hard with Gear Grind, but it will still be smacked by Fusion Bolt. Uninvested Scizor is 2HKOed by an unboosted Fusion Bolt, so Kyurem-B has a likely chance to beat it. There's also the point that Magnezone is an exceptional partner for Kyurem-Black, so Scizor will have to be wary.
SubDD uses Quagsire as set up fodder and walks all over it, and special sets will blast through with Freeze-Dry. Quagsire is not a check at all, and it really will not ever win versus Kyurem-Black unless played badly. Also, Lum Berry is a common item, so Toxic isn't even guaranteed.
Well, since SubDD is beating Quagsire, then not really. Substitute blocks Fake Out and then Diggersby or any other Normal-type is blasted by Icicle Spear. The strongest Extreme Speed, Diggersby's, will not OHKO even after Stealth Rock / Substitute damage either.
I'm going to refrain back to the trusty SubDD once again. Substitute blocks both and doesn't care. Wisp is also blocked by Lum Berry variants. Sableye can't switch into any of its moves, hell, even Ice Shard 2HKOes Sableye at +1. That's what makes it so good!
I don't agree with this. Substitute / Dragon Dance / Icicle Spear / [Ice Shard / Fusion Bolt] walks over a large portion of the metagame. Kyurem-B forces out so many Pokemon it's not even funny. The perfect coverage in just two moves is excellent and it is able to set up on a large variety of the metagame.
Here's a Kyurem-Black team if anyone would like to try it out:
This team illustrates how great Kyurem-Black is when in use. Please test this team a bit or even make your own variations, but here's just a sample team to demonstrate it's power. This team illustrates DD + 3 Attacks, which is quite difficult to stop. I like SubDD a lot, but this variation fits better on this team,
Some questions to think about:
- Is Kyurem-Black too strong for STABmons?
- Does Kyurem-Black have a solid counter out there?
- Does Kyurem-Black make the metagame too centralized?
- Is Kyurem-Black too hard to set up with?
- Does Stealth Rock hinder Kyurem-Blacks' effectiveness in the metagame?
.
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Most Mega Scizors run 252 HP since it already gets Shift Gear to fix the Speed. At 252 HP, Scizor-M is 3HKOed by Fusion Bolt. But no matter how much KyuB invests, it is always 0HKOed by Gear Grind.
I can always agree that a well built team can help eliminate KyuB's checks and allow it to wreck face, but that doesn't make KyuB too powerful individually.
It suffers from 4MSS as well. The set you gave gets wrecked by Heatran and Aegislash. Earth Power can fix this, but then you'd lose out of checking some other Pokemon. It's not OP, but damn near OP.
I can always agree that a well built team can help eliminate KyuB's checks and allow it to wreck face, but that doesn't make KyuB too powerful individually.
It suffers from 4MSS as well. The set you gave gets wrecked by Heatran and Aegislash. Earth Power can fix this, but then you'd lose out of checking some other Pokemon. It's not OP, but damn near OP.
It doesn't get "wrecked" by either of those. Aegislash is 2HKOed by +1 Fusion Bolt, so it will take a large dent if it comes into a boosted attack. If Kyurem-B decides to Substitute, and then Dragon Dance, then Aegislash is left in Blade form and is easily taken out by Fusion Bolt. King's Shield, sure, but then there's the mind game of setting up more DD / Substitutes. Heatran is also 2HKOed by a boosted Fusion Bolt and will require Doom Desire to take effect in two turns to effectively beat it. They can take a hit from it, but both are 2HKOed and neither can immediately OHKO. Though, Aegislash can break Kyurem-B's Substitute with Gear Grind, but it won't KO after a Substitute, Kyurem-B will have very low health but will not be KOed.
You do bring up Mega Scizor as a valid check, and I didn't think of it tbh! Was tired when wrote above post. Regular Scizor, though, is checked. I did mention that Scizor KOes with Gear Grind in my post though, but that's just one Pokemon. And, Magnezone KOes both forms, and it's a great partner as I've said, so Scizor has to be careful. Also, why would you set up Kyurem-B with Scizor on the field anyways lol?
About your second comment, that's not the point. Not every single Pokemon needs to be broken individually to be broken. Kyurem-B requires very little support, which is basically just Stealth Rock removal and possibly trapping, which is definitely not too much to provide for it. Kyurem's bulk, typing, and little team support, all give it the opportunity to set up, which is why it's too strong.
Scenario 1 (Substitute): 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 94-111 (29 - 34.2%). So, twice ~ 58 - 68.4%
Scenario 2 (Dragon Dance): +1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 141-166 (43.5 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 (Shift Gear after tanking either of the above hits) 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-B: 600-708 (153.4 - 181%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Break Sub, if any, and kills in a pinch. Guaranteed kill with Stealth Rocks damage + Substitute)
I don't know why you keep assuming that Shift Gear users do not run HP.
Edit: I'm very sure your set had Jolly before (Now it says Adamant). Regardless, the Sub scenario is handled well by Aegislash. Not to mention KS prediction (Where you assume that KyuB will always predict right).
Mega Scizor is the best answer to KyuB, but depending on moveset, things like Skarmory, Heatran or Aegislash check it.
Scenario 2 (Dragon Dance): +1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 141-166 (43.5 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 (Shift Gear after tanking either of the above hits) 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-B: 600-708 (153.4 - 181%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Break Sub, if any, and kills in a pinch. Guaranteed kill with Stealth Rocks damage + Substitute)
I don't know why you keep assuming that Shift Gear users do not run HP.
Edit: I'm very sure your set had Jolly before (Now it says Adamant). Regardless, the Sub scenario is handled well by Aegislash. Not to mention KS prediction (Where you assume that KyuB will always predict right).
Mega Scizor is the best answer to KyuB, but depending on moveset, things like Skarmory, Heatran or Aegislash check it.
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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-203526737
Revenged The Reptile in a game that was haxy for both sides. GG
Edit: also beat unfixable and Eevee General in 2 GGs.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-204078387
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-203725274
Double Edit: Lost to Seraph's Fire in a GG
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-204241861
Revenged The Reptile in a game that was haxy for both sides. GG
Edit: also beat unfixable and Eevee General in 2 GGs.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-204078387
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-203725274
Double Edit: Lost to Seraph's Fire in a GG
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-204241861
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You are probably right Pagoose
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I have used defog poison heal gliscor, a set that is normally illegal in ou. Are you sure that your clefable set isn't just incompatible because of unaware and softboiled not being compatible?
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
Remember that clefable no longer gets normal type moves, since its entire line is mono-fairy as of gen 6.
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