Ladder STABmons (the old one)

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Thundurus @ Life Orb
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Defog
-Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power Ice
-Focus Blast

I came up with this when looking for something to remove hazards on my team. Thundurus is one of the fastest users of prankster and has access to defog through his flying type. Since Defog is unblockable, only KOing it with something like Talonflame (who needs to run 252+ to outspeed defog with a flying move, which Thundy resists anyway) or espeed can stop it from removing hazards. Thundy is no slouch offensively either, so I feel this set would play like a better starmie. The biggest downside is his own sr weakness, preventing him from coming into clear rocks if he's been weakened too much.

Absol @ Absolite
Trait: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Swords Dance
-Dark Void / Fire Blast / Night Slash
-Sucker Punch
-Play Rough

I posted this before, but I still feel like Absol will be fairly good in this meta, as a set up sweeper that's immune to topsy turvy (unfortunately, because of how magic bounce interacts with parting shot, parting shot effectively phazes it, but sableye has serious 4MSS imo, and I feel parting shot heavily competes for a moveslot with dark void, foul play, recover, and destiny bond). It can come in after something dies or on a predicted status move, put something to sleep, and start setting up. Dark Void can be substituted for fire blast or night slash, fire blast to hit the few things, such as mawile, that dark + fairy doesn't, or night slash for a more reliable STAB.
 
Ok, so let's talk about the pokemon posted in the OP

The Diggersby set in the OP is what I think will become the standard Diggersby, since it doesn't have the bulk to set-up anything tbh, especially not a Belly Drum (Although it DOES have access to that, so). There are 2 options that Diggersby can used over Stone Edge or U-Turn though. Explosion is one of them, doing massive damage thanks to STAB and Huge Power. To put into perspective how powerful Explosion from Diggersby is, have some calcs.
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 364-429 (90.09 - 106.18%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Explosion vs. 248 HP / 172 Def Landorus-T: 481-567 (126.24 - 148.81%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 508-598 (120.95 - 142.38%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You get the idea. CB Explosion from Diggersby hurts like hell. The other option requires a different item, but I think that the Fake Out + ESpeed combo looks promising. Unlike other Fake Out users who can't really use it all that well, Diggerby's Fake Out is actually kind of strong, strong enough that Fake Out + ESpeed can take out threats that a CB ESpeed can, except without locking you in. It also lets you damage faster ESpeeders. These two moves probably don't have a slot on the main set outside of slashes (One kills you while the other one can't be used with CB, which is probably the best item for Diggersby). Countering Diggersby is really hard due to its ok bulk letting it live a single ESPeed from some ESpeeders while being strong enough to OHKO back. Sableye can't switch into a EQ, but otherwise works to a degree. Landorous-T kind of works as a counter, although it needs to watch out for Explosion. Drifblim and Gengar are immune to its STABs, but Stone Edge destroys them. However, he has to use Stone Edge on the switch, since both outspeed him. The best way to deal with Diggersby with CB is to predict, which is kind of an awkward situation to be in. For this reason, while not as strong, I feel that a Silk Scarf set is viable on Diggersby due to it powering up ESPeed and bluffing a choice set.

Sableye, imo, isn't as good as it was back in Gen 5, but that's because back in Gen 5 you could throw it at almost any set-up sweeper and destroy its life. While Sableye got a ton of new toys, it is also hurt by the introduction of Sylveon, Talonflame, Mega-Kangaskahn, and Mega-Absol (sort of). Syvleon destroys Sableye even if Sylveon is at -2 (-2 252+ SpA Sylveon Pixilate Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 273-322 (89.8 - 105.92%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO), Talonflame has faster priority and can hit it hard at +2/+6 before Sableye can even Topsy-Turvy, and Sableye can't do much back if Talonflame hasn't set up unless its running Dark Void or Foul Play. Kangaskahn gives Sableye troubles, and while Mega-Kangaskahn can be beaten by Sableye, normal Kangaskan gives it trouble, especially since Will-O-Wisp isn't common on it anymore (Or I think it wont). Mega-Absol is only beaten by Sableye running Parting Shot, as it resists Foul Play and can bounce back Topsy-Turvy. However, it does check what it used to check a lot better, and what it checked way most E-Speeders, so overall I think Sableye is still a magnificent pokemon. I would run Max Defense over Max Special Defense though, since Will-o-Wisp isn't there to migrate his lower Defense unless you run it (but Sableye has HUGE 4MSS), and it helps you beat E-Espeeders due to being able to take their coverage moves better. The only thing I can think of that you lose to is Espeon, as Sylveon wrecks you even with max investment. Plus, Espeon can be dealt with by Parting Shot much like Absol. Sableye has huge 4MSS though, as it wants to run Will-o-Wisp / Topsy Turvy / Dark Void / Foul Play / Recover / Parting Shot / Destiny Bond / Taunt. This is why it's hard to say what the definitive "standard" Sableye is, but Topsy Turvy and Destiny Bond are definitely going to stay there as a staple to all the sets.

Sylveon is an amazing Pokemon thanks to Eevee and Pixilate Boomburst. Originally, I also thought that Earth Plate Judgement was the way to go for coverage, but honestly it's only needed for Heatran, as even resists get smashed by Pixilate Boomburst due to how powerful it is - only the bulkiest of resists can save themselves from a 2HKO. This means that Sylveon can run a mono-attacking set thanks to Fairy's good neutral coverage and the insane power of Pixilate Boomburst. I feel that, especially if you keep Judgement in the OPs set, Shadow Ball isn't doing much, as the only notable target you hit with it is Brongzong (Skarm gets destroyed by a +2 Boomburst - Specially Defensive barely lives). I feel that Lovely Kiss and Recover are much better options over Shadow Ball on that set, as one lets you cripple things while the other lets you gain your HP back. Extreme Speed requires a different nature, but it could work due to Pixilate boosting it to more than 80 BP and the +2 from Shell Smash could let it damage other E-Speeders. Baton Pass is also an option, allowing it to pass its Smash to something else and sweep later. Shell Smash isn't all it can run, it can also use a monoattacking set like I said. CM / Recover / Boomburst / Heal Bell or Lovely Kiss or Baton Pass can work very well. Another thing that Sylveon can do that everyone else seems to forget is Rapid Spin. Nothing is immune to Rapid Spin, so it's even better than Defog which could be blocked by Taunt. A defensive set of Boomburst / Softboiled / Rapid Spin / Heal Bell or Lovely Kiss could work well for it.

I don't see the appeal of Furfrou tbh. Yes, it has Recover now and Fur Coat is cool, but its main problem is still there - it doesn't do much. I feel that Rapid Spin is a waste of a moveslot on Furfrou since it is a Ghost magnet, as it cannot touch Ghost-types at all, plus other Spinners / Defog users do it better. Lovely Kiss is a much better option on Furfrou over Rapid Spin. Glare is also a neat option for Paralysis. Whirlwind should always be used over Roar imo unless something happened to Whirlwind that I don't know about. It's probably not the best thing in the world, but SD Furfrou could potentially work. It has decent bulk, recovery, and, most importantly, it can Baton Pass. Shell Smash with White Herb could work too, but SD seems like it can pass more than once per game. Overall, Furfrou could be cool, but I'm not seeing it as a great option.

Heatran is pretty good in the metagame. It can check Normal-types that don't have Ground / Fighting coverage due to Nature Power not being EQ this gen. I don't know how I feel about King's Shield. I can see the appeal to it, but I personally wouldn't run it. I'd much rather run Roar over it, but Kings Shield is neat and can work. Everything else on the set is pretty much what should be ran on the Specially Defensive set (I don't get the EV spread on the OP set though - is it trying to be defensive or offensive?). It is one of the best answer to non-BD Talonflame, if not the best, as non-BD Talonflame cannot do anything. Belly Drum gives it trouble however, as at +6 it 2HKOs while Heatran only does 25.34 - 30.08% to 248 HP EVs Talonflame with Searing Shot at 0 SpA. This might seem good for Heatran, until you realize that Roost + BD means that Talonflame wins that encounter. However, this does mean that BD Talonflame cannot set-up on Heatran unless it wants to take heavy damage. Sylveon needs Earth Plate Judgement to get around Heatran, however, it does this pretty easily (252+ SpA Earth Plate Sylveon Judgment (Ground) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 356-420 (92.46 - 109.09%) -- 50% chance to OHKO). Other Fairys do not get this advantage, and have troubles with Heatan. Azu needs to watch out for Kings Shield and Searing Shot burns, while Togekiss can barely 3HKO with Aura Sphere.
 
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one thing i'd like to mention is that safety goggles indeed block spore, they're quite useful in hackmons, however, since all grass types get spore in STABmons its probably a pretty a viable item here. Cant say ive tried it though.
 
Kangaskhan w/kangaskhanite
252hp/252def or spdef 4 spe
Super fang
Seismic toss
Knock off
Recover
Probably inferior to espeed sets but it sounds cool in theory. Super fang shaves off 75% of the opponents health and stoss kills them. Knockoff dents and removes items of all ghosts other than mega gengar and banette. Recover heals off any damage. Even though this set doesn't care about burns it still doesn't like the loss of health. Shame mamaroo doesn't learn night shade.
 
You may want to run extreme speed on that set. Sableye doesn't really care about that set anyways, and e-speed lets you still ko faster things if they switch in to a super fang.
 
A few other new moves introduced here for your consideration -

Baby-Doll Eyes now on all Fairy types - very useful for the predominantly Special Defense oriented Fairy type.
Draining Kiss now on all Fairy types - mostly of note for Technician Mr. Mime, as it becomes a 75 BP, 75% drain.
Electrify now on all Electric types - incredible move for any fast Electric-type with an Electric-absorbing ability. Raichu, Raikou, Jolteon, and Manectric come to mind.
Flying Press now on all Fighting types - potent coverage option as Flying has great synergy with Fighting.
Freeze-Dry now on all Ice types - STAB pseudo-BoltBeam greatly appreciated by any special attacking Ice-type.
Geomancy now on all Fairy types - Overshadowed by Shell Smash Sylveon, Geomancy is a powerful boosting option for most other Fairies.
Mystical Fire now on all Fire types - low 65 BP, but 100% chance to lower SpA is greatly appreciated by any remotely defensive Fire-type.
Nuzzle now on all Electric types - not terribly flashy, but a straight upgrade to Thunder Wave
Oblivion Wing now on all Flying types - 80 BP, 75% drain, this will likely be the STAB of choice for any special attacking Flying-type, outstripping even Aeroblast and Hurricane IMO
Powder now on all Bug types - don't feel so comfortable about Fire Blasting that Scizor now, do you?
Spiky Shield now on all Grass types - now even better at stalling!
Sticky Web now on all Bug types - powerful entry hazard previously limited by poor distribution, may not be as effective with so much Speed-boosting and priority around
Water Shuriken now on all Water types - alas, poor STABmons Aqua Jet, we hardly knew ye. Also, Cloyster wants to know what the big deal is with all these other Shell Smashers.
 
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Adonzo said:
Water Shuriken now on all Water types - alas, poor STABmons Aqua Jet, we hardly knew ye. Also, Cloyster wants to know what the big deal is with all these other Shell Smashers.
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Shell Smash Barbaracle still wants Aqua Jet, because with Tough Claws is more powerful on average than Water Shuriken. Also, speaking of Barbaracle, it has head Smash now, which is MOTHERFUCKING 292 BASE POWER after STAB and Tough Claws. However, with such power at +2 you are probably going to kill yourself in just one turn, so is it worth mentioning?
 
What about a couple more Shell Smashers?
Togekiss @ Life Orb/White Herb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Spa, 252 Spe, 4 HP, Timid Nature
Shell Smash
Moonblast
Hurricane/Air Slash
Roost/Fire Blast
Might Be outclassed by Sylveon, but theres always Serene Grace Air Slash.

Heliolisk @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Spa, 252 Spe, 4 Hp, Modest Nature
Shell Smash
Boomburst
Thunderbolt/Thunder (in rain)
Grass Knot/Surf
I like this set a lot, havent tested it, but Heliolisk is quite fast and can afford to run a modest nature.
 
Togekiss has to run geomancy, as it does not get normal type moves anymore. Also, I feel like helio might be outclassed by jolteon/
 
Heliolisk has an arguably better ability in Dry Skin, STAB Boomburst, and only one less spa than Jolteon. In rain, it also has pseudo-STAB on surf, perfect accuracy thunder, and passive recovery. I don't think Jolteon outclasses it.
 
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Togekiss can get non-gen 6 exclusive Normal-type moves.

Heliolisk gets STAB on boomburst though, as well as Surf to beat ground types. Jolteon's advantage is... uh, Smash?
 
TM13IceBeam said:
Togekiss can get non-gen 6 exclusive Normal-type moves.

Heliolisk gets STAB on boomburst though, as well as Surf to beat ground types. Jolteon's advantage is... uh, Smash?
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Guess what? Heliolisk gets it too!

So let's take a look at the differences between the two:

Heliolisk Base Stats: 62 / 55 / 52 / 109 / 94 / 109
Jolteon Base Stats: 65 / 65 / 60 / 110 / 95 / 130

So in terms of stats, Jolteon outclasses Heliolisk (Mostly in terms of speed, the bulk difference is near-negligible).

Mentionable movepool differences (as far as we know)
Heliolisk: Gets Surf, Dark Pulse, and Focus Blast.
Jolteon: Gets Shadow Ball.

In terms of movepool, however, Heliolisk outclasses Jolteon.

Anything else?
Heliolisk: Gets Dry Skin, a great ability for Rain, and Solar Power, a decent ability for sun. Gets STAB on all Normal attacks (LOL STAB BOOMBURST)
Jolteon: Nothing really fantastic. Has the niche of outspeeding all Smashers if you run Quick Feet + Status Orb.

Heliolisk outclasses Jolteon in terms of abilities too.

So, overall, I think Heliolisk actually somewhat outclasses Jolteon, except if you really want that speed increase and slight increases in bulk :P
 
Talpr0ne said:
Shell Smash Barbaracle still wants Aqua Jet, because with Tough Claws is more powerful on average than Water Shuriken. Also, speaking of Barbaracle, it has head Smash now, which is MOTHERFUCKING 292 BASE POWER after STAB and Tough Claws. However, with such power at +2 you are probably going to kill yourself in just one turn, so is it worth mentioning?
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Actually, that would be 300 BP, because tough claws is a x1.33 boost.


Here is my response to the sets in the second post. These changes aren't tested, and I didn't look at what other people had to say, so sorry for any redundancies.
660.png
w/ Huge Power
Adamant, 4HP/252A/252SP, @ Choice Band
-ExtremeSpeed
-Earthquake
-U-turn
-Wild Charge

Wild Charge is a completely better option imo because it has better accuracy, and can hit Skarm super effectively. The only threat to this set that gets hit substantially harder by Stone Miss is Avallug, who isn't very likely to be viable anyway. Also, who are the speed EVs for? I feel like their could be some better optimization with them.
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w/ Prankster
Impish, 252HP/252D/4SD, @ Leftovers
-Topsy-Turvy
-Recover
-Will-o-wisp/Parting Shot
-Destiny Bond

One thing that concerns me about the posted set, is that it can't touch Espeon. Espeon can stall out D-Bond with a boosting move, and OHKO with Dazzling Gleam. Parting Shot will be reflected by Magic Bounce, forcing that Espeon to switch out, losing its boosts. It would also give some safe switch in opportunities for team mates, giving it utility outside of countering boosting sweepers.

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w/ Pixilate
Modest/Hasty, 4HP/252SA/252SP, @ Earth Plate
-Shell Smash
-Boomburst
-Judgment
-Shadow Ball/Extreme Speed/Toxic

The only things that would get hit harder by Shadow Ball, are Gengar and Levitate Bronzong, and you only lose about 15% power by hitting them with Boomburst instead. If that doesn't change the number of hits to KO Gengar, then I would consider trading it for Extreme Speed, which helps you against choice scarfers and other priority. It can also KO Sableye with some prior damage. Toxic is a different option for Sableye, weakening him so that a different priority using sweeper can have an easier time with him.



485.png
w/ Flash Fire
Bold, 4HP/252SA/252SD, @ Air Balloon
-King's Shield/Roar
-Searing Shot
-Flash Cannon
-Stealth Rock/Roar
Heatran makes a great check to sweepers like Talonflame, Pyroar, and Sylveon, because of his defensive typing, ability, and bulk. However, he still fears Earth Plate Judgment from all of these. The solution to this issue is Air Balloon and Roar. Air Balloon forces the sweeper to spend a turn popping the balloon, while Heatran forces it out with Roar. This is especially effective to Geomancy sweepers, who will have consumed their power herb already.
I originally didn't have anything to say about that Furfrou set, but I realized that Whirlwind should replace Roar. This is a small change, since only helps against uncommon sound proof pokemon like Mr. Mime, but Roar doesn't give you any advantage over Whirlwind, so there is no reason to use it.
 
So these are what i've been using in my stall teams:


Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 SDef or Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Calm Nature
- King's Shield
- Scald
- Roar
- Defog

Walls many threats, Defogs, Scald spams and abuses King's Shield extremely well. Also phazes out Sylveon's not using Judgment Ground (Sylveon is impossible to wall, pls ban.)

Tangrowth @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Seed Flare
- Spore
- Aromatherapy
- Hidden Power [Fire]

I used to use this a lot back in gen 5 STABmons, it still works extremely well. It walls the common Excadrill and many other threats while Sporing and acting as a great defensive pivot that also acts as a cleric.
 
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bobbyvaporeon said:
What about a couple more Shell Smashers?
Togekiss @ Life Orb/White Herb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Spa, 252 Spe, 4 HP, Timid Nature
Shell Smash
Moonblast
Hurricane/Air Slash
Roost/Fire Blast
Might Be outclassed by Sylveon, but theres always Serene Grace Air Slash.
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Toge's should be running oblivion wing / geomancy. It's basically guaranteed to be at full health and +2/+2/+2 against all kinds of pokemon after setting up. It MIGHT even be viable to run it with a babiri or lum berry considering that oblivion wing will heal you up after the two turn geomancy. Magezone to get scizor is probably your best option as a supporter.
 
I am also on the ban Sylveon train.
It is literally impossible to wall as all three of Fairies resists are weak to Earth Plate Judgement.
Either that or put in the Limited normals clause again
 
Surely priority Bullet Punch from the likes of Scizor, Excadrill, or even Aegislash does it in?
 
The_Eevee_General said:
Surely priority Bullet Punch from the likes of Scizor, Excadrill, or even Aegislash does it in?
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Excadril and Aegislash, even Adamant with 252 Attack EVs, fail to get an OHKO on 252/4/252 EV Sylveon with Bullet Punch. Scizor, with Adamant, 252 Attack EVs and Technician, can get an OHKO with Bullet Punch.

Note that Excadril and Aegislash can outspeed and use Iron Head/Meteor Mash/Gear Grind to OHKO, though.
 
I was also factoring in the Defense drop from Shell Smash but good to know!

Also, what is the typical Sylveon spread? 4HP/252SA/252SP?
 
The_Eevee_General said:
I was also factoring in the Defense drop from Shell Smash but good to know!

Also, what is the typical Sylveon spread? 4HP/252SA/252SP?
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I think it has 3 spreads
Geomancy / Smash uses 252 SpA / 252 Spe
non-set up offensive uses 252 HP / 252 SpA
Defensive uses 252 HP / 252 Def (imo this is better than 252 HP / 252 SpD because dem resists tho)

Also, calcs

252 Atk Excadrill Bullet Punch vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 288-342 (86.7 - 103%)
252 Atk Excadrill Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 432-510 (130.1 - 153.6%)
252 Atk Aegislash-Blade Bullet Punch vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 312-368 (93.9 - 110.8%)
252 Atk Aegislash-Blade Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 206-246 (62 - 74%)
 
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Sylveon is slow as shit, just check it with a scarf user. After shell smash it's weak as hell to priority, and scarfers, and with geomancy if forced out by a scarf it's nearly useless. Cant use judgement with geomancy so, that set is probably irrelevant anyways. Again, locked into the plate, it's harder to set up because it necessarily drops it defenses on set up and is vulnerable to status.
 
Alrighty students, tomorrow I'm going to put up some new homework. If you don't know what I'm talking about, see the second post in this thread.
The Reptile and PokemonMasterDebater both have enough stars to PM me a Pokemon and custom set of their choice.

Also, keep up the good Sylveon discussion. Particularly well thought out arguments about it--including banworthiness--will earn gold stars!
 
porky said:
Sylveon is slow as shit, just check it with a scarf user. After shell smash it's weak as hell to priority, and scarfers, and with geomancy if forced out by a scarf it's nearly useless. Cant use judgement with geomancy so, that set is probably irrelevant anyways. Again, locked into the plate, it's harder to set up because it necessarily drops it defenses on set up and is vulnerable to status.
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>"weak as hell to priority"

>only guaranteed OHKO without rocks is 252 adamant Scizor's Bullet Punch

Yeah okay

When something has all of one mon that can OHKO it at -1 defense univested without having to take a hit, and after a boost only one pokemon can tank a hit and OHKO back, I see that as banworthy.
 
Mean Mr Snorlax said:
>"weak as hell to priority"

>only guaranteed OHKO without rocks is 252 adamant Scizor's Bullet Punch

Yeah okay
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except you're setting up a shell smash with no white herb, meaning you have to tank an initial hit, sometimes at -1 defense, and even then excadrill, mega lucario, ursaring, mega kanga and other powerful priority absuers do OHKO you. Try and take actual battle conditions in to play here. Against defensive teams, sylveon is probably a terrifying monster, but against a decently offensive team it is exceedingly easy to check, and easy to prevent it from setting up. Other metas that allow ridiculous set up and offensive moves are generally pretty offensive, that's fine.

calcs

252+ Atk Ursaring Extreme Speed vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 307-363 (92.4 - 109.3%)

252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Extreme Speed vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 409-483 (123.1 - 145.4%)

252 Atk Excadrill Bullet Punch vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 288-342 (86.7 - 103%)

+1 252 Atk Genesect Bullet Punch vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 398-470 (119.8 - 141.5%)

252 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 306-361 (92.1 - 108.7%)

just examples, though, gene is probably gunna use iron head/gear grind
 
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