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Ladder STABmons (the old one)
- Thread starter EV
- Start date
- Status
Won vs DarkeKnight in frontier, gg
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-222306867
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-222306867
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
I'll challenge when I get back, but I will have to teambuild so yeah. It'll be a week or two
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-222417524
Won against Eevee General
Sucker Punch mind games FTW.
Won against Eevee General
Sucker Punch mind games FTW.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-222450587
Won vs Eevee General in a haxy one =/
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 281-331 (92.4 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Won vs Eevee General in a haxy one =/
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 281-331 (92.4 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-222544038
Beat STABmons NU Frontier - Lcass4919
It's not hax. It's skill.
One down. Four to go.
Beat STABmons NU Frontier - Lcass4919
It's not hax. It's skill.
One down. Four to go.
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
For Gen V STABmons, is there a list of Pokemon/moves/new abilities introduced in Gen VI that would be illegal? Also, is Limited Normal Clause still in effect for Gen V STABmons? And why you no make a STABmons+ brain :'(
1. Any Pokémon/Move/Ability before Gen V is illegal. Visit the Gen V STABmons thread to know more.
2. As of now, no, I think. So you're free to Belly Drum-Sweep.
3. The Senior and Junior Champions specialize in Standard STABmons.
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
I know, I was talking about STABmons+, like, Ubers are legal, you can choose moves from your mega form (MegaAmph gets Draco Meteor for example) and form transfers get all moves (Spore Rotom-W!!!). And I know stuff introduced in Gen 6 is illegal, I was just wondering if there was a list somewhere of said stuff.
Beat DinaIsha in a very close game for the frontier. GG. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-222758381
Lost to Pagoose in LC STABmons http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-223005483
More embarrassing that the loss is the fact that I challenged him with Level 100 mons before and learned that LC mons are Level 5.
More embarrassing that the loss is the fact that I challenged him with Level 100 mons before and learned that LC mons are Level 5.
Now hold up unfixable! That's a complex ban, and that changes things so much! Well, my delicate reader, it does. It does change STABmons, and I know that. Does it change STABmon's integrity? Well, that's up to you to decide. Personally, I think it is a change that would refresh the metagame. It would change things so much, that it's almost like a metagame is being restarted from scratch. And, well, to tell you the truth, I think STABmons can handle it. This was in place for Gen V STABmons, and I'm proposing we bring it back. Only now, we have so many more threats. The above Pokemon did not exist in Gen V, bar Porygon-Z, and the metagame is so different now, so I won't even compare them. The root of the brokeness of the above Pokemon has always been Normal-type moves. Belly Drum, Shell Smash, Extreme Speed, Boomburst, and various support moves such as Recover, Heal Bell, Lovely Kiss, and Glare, all have their limits on normal Pokemon and are not mixed, ever. It's like combining one explosive material with another, then maybe one more, and then even another! It's just crazy. We know that the above Pokemon have all been broken for the above moves, well maybe not the defensive ones, but those are equally as strong on other defensive Normal-types. That is the root of the problem, and none of the above Pokemon are inherently broken.
In the current STABmons metagame, Belly Drum is running the show. Scrappy Belly Drummers in particular, namely Kangaskhan and Stoutland, are what are currently at the top of the tier. These Pokemon have so many set up opportunities, and they are able to basically win after they click Belly Drum. If I had one word to describe it, it's "mindless," because that is what these Pokemon are. Belly Drum + Extreme Speed, along with Scrappy, are nearly impossible to stop and require you to change your team to specifically counter them. Now I know there are many threats to prepare for, and if your team isn't ready to take them on, then you have not built your team properly, but this is different in that it can get past its counters. What Pokemon, bar Steel-types, enjoy taking a +6 Belly Drum? Ghost-types can't take it, and Sableye can't even stop them, which is what it is supposed to. In other Normal-type moves, Fake Out + Extreme Speed. This combination is also very popular, and it always has been. This combination is creating a game of "does my Pokemon get KOed by the combination?" because the chip damage, along with the priority, make it hard for the opponent to move. One alternative is banning Kangaskhan, which will lead to Stoutland being banned, and then we have two more Normal-types being added to the collection. If we end up banning those two, then we end up having seven out of ten Pokemon being Normal-types / related to Normal-types in our banlist; aka 70%. Since I keep going back to this number, I'd just like to briefly clear something up: I'm not saying banning a bunch of Pokemon as a group is a bad thing, if it's what is best for the metagame. That's fine, and it's just like comparing it to the "S Rank" argument in the viability thread: you can have 20 Pokemon in S Rank as long as they are in fact S Rank.
Anyways, back to my original proposition. By implementing this, we then have only three bans: Mega Metagross, Mega Slowbro, and Keldeo. Besides that, we have five more Pokemon added into the metagame. Let's look at each Pokemon individually. Sylveon now has to pick from Shell Smash, Boomburst, Extreme Speed, Belly Drum, Judgment, and Fake Out, it can't run all of them. A simple set of Shell Smash / Hyper Voice / Baton Pass / Hidden Power Ground holds merit, but this is in no way near what it would've been. Porygon-Z also has to select what set to run. Agility / Boomburst / Ice Beam / Nasty Plot holds potential, but it is most definitely not broken. Mega Altaria can only run Extreme Speed, which it is most likely to, and receives an insane nerf with that. More so than any other of the "would be unbans" in my opinion. Mega Lopunny sounds pretty slick with Belly Drum, and it could even potentially be broken honestly. Regardless, without Extreme Speed it is far less broken. The infamous Diggersby suddenly takes a huge nerf. Choice Band seems to be its most viable set, still packing a powerful Extreme Speed. I'll also go into this bit a tiny more in a little while, but I'd just like to point out that Choice Band Extreme Speed is actually more powerful than Fake Out + Extreme Speed in one turn, being about .2% more powerful. Of course FakeSpeed is better, but this just shows the power difference of the two, which is completely unnoticeable. Choice Band, however, means that you can't use another move to beat what comes in to live the Extreme Speed.
Going back to my line about Diggersby in a new paragraph, I think that the argument "with this change, set up will be too prominent" is not a valid one. We will have set up no matter what, and that's a fact. Choice Band Extreme Speed will be the new go to over FakeSpeed, and many Pokemon call pull this off effectively. This is the exact same as revenge-killing, due to their similar strength and both having priority, so I don't think it will be an argument. Another counter-argument to this is how it will nerf Normal-types far too much. And, in complete honesty, I think that is completely fine. Normal-types are the face of STABmons, and their movepool is just far too large. I feel Normal-types as a whole are broken, and the entire typing being nerfed in a manner that makes them still very very usable, but not so over the top is something this aims to do. I don't see any other arguments that bar the obvious "complex bans" and "changing STABmons" arguments, which I've addressed already.
To finish this post, I'll leave a replay with Pagoose: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-223194320. I'm sorry for making a huge wall of text, I just had many thoughts and I wanted to get them all out u_u! Here's what Pagoose has to say on the matter:
★unfixable: did you think the metagame was a bit more fun
★unfixable: in this one battle we had?
★Pagoose: yeah that game was really fun
Hope you guys consider this as an option, and once again, I apologize for drawing out this post x_x! /me finish
Beat Dinalsha in frontier, gg: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-223192560
Sorry for this anti-climatic post right after unfixible's ;-;
Sorry for this anti-climatic post right after unfixible's ;-;
Well this happened, and i honestly i think unfixable is onto something. The of all these broken Pokemon has been an insane variety of set up, priority, and support moves. I know many people weren't a big fan of the Normal Clause in Gen V, but banning Diggersby has done little to help refresh the meta. There is little more variety because Stoutland/Kangaskhan/Braviary/Ursaring have simply taken Diggersby spot in most teams. Little else has changed besides the sprite of the Espeeder. Stabmons could use some more variety and creativity. And maybe even a bit more stall. But none of that will happen while any normal type has the potential to just win after one turn. And we all know thats it all it can take thanks to Belly Drum-Espeed spam. In my opinion we should take a closer look at reimplementing a Normal Clause into Stabmons.Let me preface this post with a question. When you look at the above Pokemon, what is your first thought? Personally, mine were "banned," and I'd likely assume that is yours as well. Now let me ask one more question. What do these above Pokemon all have in common? Normal-type. Now let's piece those two together. Banned, Normal-types. These above Pokemon make up five out of the eight STABmons-specific bans we have put in place. That's 62.5% of all STABmons bans. But wait, unfixable, Mega Altaria isn't a Normal-type! Well, that is correct, but its pre-evolution, Swablu, is in fact a Normal-type. Now, after my puzzling questions and jibber jabber in regards to the above Pokemon .gifs, can you see where I'm going with it? It's a trend that Normal-types get banned, and it's a trend in STABmons specifically. When you think STABmons, you likely think "Diggersby," and I know I did. Before it was banned. Banned. Do you see where I'm going with this? Banned... Normal-types... STABmons... Have you caught on yet? Well, in case you haven't, I'm proposing an alternative ban. It's a fact that Normal-types, or Pokemon with access to Normal-type moves to be more specific, are banned in STABmons, as the above Pokemon illustrate. Now hold onto your seats, because I have a ban that I would like to propose that I feel shakes up STABmons. A lot. Are you ready? Are you really feeling it? Well, just a moment. Let me think about this. Okay, fine, I'll tell you. You're likely annoyed by now, I apologize! I'll just spit it out. I'm proposing that we limit Normal-type Pokemon to one Normal-type move.
Now hold up unfixable! That's a complex ban, and that changes things so much! Well, my delicate reader, it does. It does change STABmons, and I know that. Does it change STABmon's integrity? Well, that's up to you to decide. Personally, I think it is a change that would refresh the metagame. It would change things so much, that it's almost like a metagame is being restarted from scratch. And, well, to tell you the truth, I think STABmons can handle it. This was in place for Gen V STABmons, and I'm proposing we bring it back. Only now, we have so many more threats. The above Pokemon did not exist in Gen V, bar Porygon-Z, and the metagame is so different now, so I won't even compare them. The root of the brokeness of the above Pokemon has always been Normal-type moves. Belly Drum, Shell Smash, Extreme Speed, Boomburst, and various support moves such as Recover, Heal Bell, Lovely Kiss, and Glare, all have their limits on normal Pokemon and are not mixed, ever. It's like combining one explosive material with another, then maybe one more, and then even another! It's just crazy. We know that the above Pokemon have all been broken for the above moves, well maybe not the defensive ones, but those are equally as strong on other defensive Normal-types. That is the root of the problem, and none of the above Pokemon are inherently broken.
In the current STABmons metagame, Belly Drum is running the show. Scrappy Belly Drummers in particular, namely Kangaskhan and Stoutland, are what are currently at the top of the tier. These Pokemon have so many set up opportunities, and they are able to basically win after they click Belly Drum. If I had one word to describe it, it's "mindless," because that is what these Pokemon are. Belly Drum + Extreme Speed, along with Scrappy, are nearly impossible to stop and require you to change your team to specifically counter them. Now I know there are many threats to prepare for, and if your team isn't ready to take them on, then you have not built your team properly, but this is different in that it can get past its counters. What Pokemon, bar Steel-types, enjoy taking a +6 Belly Drum? Ghost-types can't take it, and Sableye can't even stop them, which is what it is supposed to. In other Normal-type moves, Fake Out + Extreme Speed. This combination is also very popular, and it always has been. This combination is creating a game of "does my Pokemon get KOed by the combination?" because the chip damage, along with the priority, make it hard for the opponent to move. One alternative is banning Kangaskhan, which will lead to Stoutland being banned, and then we have two more Normal-types being added to the collection. If we end up banning those two, then we end up having seven out of ten Pokemon being Normal-types / related to Normal-types in our banlist; aka 70%. Since I keep going back to this number, I'd just like to briefly clear something up: I'm not saying banning a bunch of Pokemon as a group is a bad thing, if it's what is best for the metagame. That's fine, and it's just like comparing it to the "S Rank" argument in the viability thread: you can have 20 Pokemon in S Rank as long as they are in fact S Rank.
Anyways, back to my original proposition. By implementing this, we then have only three bans: Mega Metagross, Mega Slowbro, and Keldeo. Besides that, we have five more Pokemon added into the metagame. Let's look at each Pokemon individually. Sylveon now has to pick from Shell Smash, Boomburst, Extreme Speed, Belly Drum, Judgment, and Fake Out, it can't run all of them. A simple set of Shell Smash / Hyper Voice / Baton Pass / Hidden Power Ground holds merit, but this is in no way near what it would've been. Porygon-Z also has to select what set to run. Agility / Boomburst / Ice Beam / Nasty Plot holds potential, but it is most definitely not broken. Mega Altaria can only run Extreme Speed, which it is most likely to, and receives an insane nerf with that. More so than any other of the "would be unbans" in my opinion. Mega Lopunny sounds pretty slick with Belly Drum, and it could even potentially be broken honestly. Regardless, without Extreme Speed it is far less broken. The infamous Diggersby suddenly takes a huge nerf. Choice Band seems to be its most viable set, still packing a powerful Extreme Speed. I'll also go into this bit a tiny more in a little while, but I'd just like to point out that Choice Band Extreme Speed is actually more powerful than Fake Out + Extreme Speed in one turn, being about .2% more powerful. Of course FakeSpeed is better, but this just shows the power difference of the two, which is completely unnoticeable. Choice Band, however, means that you can't use another move to beat what comes in to live the Extreme Speed.
Going back to my line about Diggersby in a new paragraph, I think that the argument "with this change, set up will be too prominent" is not a valid one. We will have set up no matter what, and that's a fact. Choice Band Extreme Speed will be the new go to over FakeSpeed, and many Pokemon call pull this off effectively. This is the exact same as revenge-killing, due to their similar strength and both having priority, so I don't think it will be an argument. Another counter-argument to this is how it will nerf Normal-types far too much. And, in complete honesty, I think that is completely fine. Normal-types are the face of STABmons, and their movepool is just far too large. I feel Normal-types as a whole are broken, and the entire typing being nerfed in a manner that makes them still very very usable, but not so over the top is something this aims to do. I don't see any other arguments that bar the obvious "complex bans" and "changing STABmons" arguments, which I've addressed already.
To finish this post, I'll leave a replay with Pagoose: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-223194320. I'm sorry for making a huge wall of text, I just had many thoughts and I wanted to get them all out u_u! Here's what Pagoose has to say on the matter:
★unfixable: did you think the metagame was a bit more fun
★unfixable: in this one battle we had?
★Pagoose: yeah that game was really fun
Hope you guys consider this as an option, and once again, I apologize for drawing out this post x_x! /me finish
I'd like to start off by saying that I pointed towards a "less-fun" STABmons during the Diggersby suspect. Now, after the ban, you don't really see a "burst of creativity" (That Diggersby was apparently 'holding back') as reasoned in the ban. The FakeSpeeders have simply been replaced. So what does this lead to? Once again, a Stall-ish Metagame dominated by the likes of Aegislash, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Sableye (Mega and Non-Mega) etc.,Let me preface this post with a question. When you look at the above Pokemon, what is your first thought? Personally, mine were "banned," and I'd likely assume that is yours as well. Now let me ask one more question. What do these above Pokemon all have in common? Normal-type. Now let's piece those two together. Banned, Normal-types. These above Pokemon make up five out of the eight STABmons-specific bans we have put in place. That's 62.5% of all STABmons bans. But wait, unfixable, Mega Altaria isn't a Normal-type! Well, that is correct, but its pre-evolution, Swablu, is in fact a Normal-type. Now, after my puzzling questions and jibber jabber in regards to the above Pokemon .gifs, can you see where I'm going with it? It's a trend that Normal-types get banned, and it's a trend in STABmons specifically. When you think STABmons, you likely think "Diggersby," and I know I did. Before it was banned. Banned. Do you see where I'm going with this? Banned... Normal-types... STABmons... Have you caught on yet? Well, in case you haven't, I'm proposing an alternative ban. It's a fact that Normal-types, or Pokemon with access to Normal-type moves to be more specific, are banned in STABmons, as the above Pokemon illustrate. Now hold onto your seats, because I have a ban that I would like to propose that I feel shakes up STABmons. A lot. Are you ready? Are you really feeling it? Well, just a moment. Let me think about this. Okay, fine, I'll tell you. You're likely annoyed by now, I apologize! I'll just spit it out. I'm proposing that we limit Normal-type Pokemon to one Normal-type move.
Now hold up unfixable! That's a complex ban, and that changes things so much! Well, my delicate reader, it does. It does change STABmons, and I know that. Does it change STABmon's integrity? Well, that's up to you to decide. Personally, I think it is a change that would refresh the metagame. It would change things so much, that it's almost like a metagame is being restarted from scratch. And, well, to tell you the truth, I think STABmons can handle it. This was in place for Gen V STABmons, and I'm proposing we bring it back. Only now, we have so many more threats. The above Pokemon did not exist in Gen V, bar Porygon-Z, and the metagame is so different now, so I won't even compare them. The root of the brokeness of the above Pokemon has always been Normal-type moves. Belly Drum, Shell Smash, Extreme Speed, Boomburst, and various support moves such as Recover, Heal Bell, Lovely Kiss, and Glare, all have their limits on normal Pokemon and are not mixed, ever. It's like combining one explosive material with another, then maybe one more, and then even another! It's just crazy. We know that the above Pokemon have all been broken for the above moves, well maybe not the defensive ones, but those are equally as strong on other defensive Normal-types. That is the root of the problem, and none of the above Pokemon are inherently broken.
In the current STABmons metagame, Belly Drum is running the show. Scrappy Belly Drummers in particular, namely Kangaskhan and Stoutland, are what are currently at the top of the tier. These Pokemon have so many set up opportunities, and they are able to basically win after they click Belly Drum. If I had one word to describe it, it's "mindless," because that is what these Pokemon are. Belly Drum + Extreme Speed, along with Scrappy, are nearly impossible to stop and require you to change your team to specifically counter them. Now I know there are many threats to prepare for, and if your team isn't ready to take them on, then you have not built your team properly, but this is different in that it can get past its counters. What Pokemon, bar Steel-types, enjoy taking a +6 Belly Drum? Ghost-types can't take it, and Sableye can't even stop them, which is what it is supposed to. In other Normal-type moves, Fake Out + Extreme Speed. This combination is also very popular, and it always has been. This combination is creating a game of "does my Pokemon get KOed by the combination?" because the chip damage, along with the priority, make it hard for the opponent to move. One alternative is banning Kangaskhan, which will lead to Stoutland being banned, and then we have two more Normal-types being added to the collection. If we end up banning those two, then we end up having seven out of ten Pokemon being Normal-types / related to Normal-types in our banlist; aka 70%. Since I keep going back to this number, I'd just like to briefly clear something up: I'm not saying banning a bunch of Pokemon as a group is a bad thing, if it's what is best for the metagame. That's fine, and it's just like comparing it to the "S Rank" argument in the viability thread: you can have 20 Pokemon in S Rank as long as they are in fact S Rank.
Anyways, back to my original proposition. By implementing this, we then have only three bans: Mega Metagross, Mega Slowbro, and Keldeo. Besides that, we have five more Pokemon added into the metagame. Let's look at each Pokemon individually. Sylveon now has to pick from Shell Smash, Boomburst, Extreme Speed, Belly Drum, Judgment, and Fake Out, it can't run all of them. A simple set of Shell Smash / Hyper Voice / Baton Pass / Hidden Power Ground holds merit, but this is in no way near what it would've been. Porygon-Z also has to select what set to run. Agility / Boomburst / Ice Beam / Nasty Plot holds potential, but it is most definitely not broken. Mega Altaria can only run Extreme Speed, which it is most likely to, and receives an insane nerf with that. More so than any other of the "would be unbans" in my opinion. Mega Lopunny sounds pretty slick with Belly Drum, and it could even potentially be broken honestly. Regardless, without Extreme Speed it is far less broken. The infamous Diggersby suddenly takes a huge nerf. Choice Band seems to be its most viable set, still packing a powerful Extreme Speed. I'll also go into this bit a tiny more in a little while, but I'd just like to point out that Choice Band Extreme Speed is actually more powerful than Fake Out + Extreme Speed in one turn, being about .2% more powerful. Of course FakeSpeed is better, but this just shows the power difference of the two, which is completely unnoticeable. Choice Band, however, means that you can't use another move to beat what comes in to live the Extreme Speed.
Going back to my line about Diggersby in a new paragraph, I think that the argument "with this change, set up will be too prominent" is not a valid one. We will have set up no matter what, and that's a fact. Choice Band Extreme Speed will be the new go to over FakeSpeed, and many Pokemon call pull this off effectively. This is the exact same as revenge-killing, due to their similar strength and both having priority, so I don't think it will be an argument. Another counter-argument to this is how it will nerf Normal-types far too much. And, in complete honesty, I think that is completely fine. Normal-types are the face of STABmons, and their movepool is just far too large. I feel Normal-types as a whole are broken, and the entire typing being nerfed in a manner that makes them still very very usable, but not so over the top is something this aims to do. I don't see any other arguments that bar the obvious "complex bans" and "changing STABmons" arguments, which I've addressed already.
To finish this post, I'll leave a replay with Pagoose: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-223194320. I'm sorry for making a huge wall of text, I just had many thoughts and I wanted to get them all out u_u! Here's what Pagoose has to say on the matter:
★unfixable: did you think the metagame was a bit more fun
★unfixable: in this one battle we had?
★Pagoose: yeah that game was really fun
Hope you guys consider this as an option, and once again, I apologize for drawing out this post x_x! /me finish
I agree with unfixable in the sense that Normal Bans are getting ridiculous. But I'm not sure about the One-Move clause, because it's easily walled by the likes of the aforementioned Stall Mons. I'd be more in favor of limiting One Normal Mon per team. This is feasible and doesn't allow for Shell Smash/Belly Drum ESpeed Spam.
When all is said and done, I guess, the council shapes the meta. I only hope it doesn't disfigure it too much.
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I'd like to say stabmons genV had one normal Mon per team not one normal move per pokemon. Also there are very few normal types that would stay viable if you didn't allow them more than one move(being basically limited to diggs ursaring pz sylveon Starbucks and altaria(obv excluding blobs)). So would we rather have complex bans with worse normal types or no complex bans with good normal types?
This is a very interesting idea. I don't think you're correct in that "very few Normal-types remain viable," however. Besides those Pokemon you listed, Kangaskhan is a great Choice Band Extreme Speeder because it has more bulk than Diggersby. Stoutland plays a nice support role with either Rapid Spin or Heal Bell or Milk Drink. Meloetta is still Meloetta, and is still great with Shell Smash Stored Power. Defensive sets are still quite good. Braviary is powerful and deters Landorus-Therian, while Mega Pidgeot just has to pick between Sing and Boomburst. Porygon2 isn't nerfed, while Bibarel still isn't good lol. Besides those Pokemon both you and I have listed, Normal-type Pokemon aren't even used that often unless for a specific niche or gimmick reason. In terms of pre-evolutions, Azumarill is not changed in any way because it learns Belly Drum naturally. At the moment, Normal-types are even more constricted than not because you're either going to use one of four: Ursaring, Stoutland, Kangaskhan, or Braviary. Without the Normal-type bans in place, we will have even more!
EV
Banned deucer.
This is incorrect. The Limited Normals Clause, as quoted from the Gen V thread, reads "only 1 instance of extra STAB is allowed for Normal-types, including access through the Pre-evo and Forme Clauses." Unfixable is correct.
On the topic of a Gen VI clause: I didn't like it last generation and I'm determined to avoid it again. unfixable I think you're glossing over the bans and making too many generalizations with your analysis of why they were banned. I'm going to break it down with my view on the bans and why I think another clause is not a good idea.
- Claiming "access to all Normal moves breaks Normals" is an oversimplification of STABmons. Access to Normal grants those Pokemon way more options than other types, which is why the right Pokemon are broken with Normal moves. They get many boosting options, they get powerful attacks, they get priority, they get recovery. The correct response then is not that Normal (including pre-evos) Pokemon break with all these tools, it's that there's a higher chance a Pokemon will break because it has many more options than other types.
- Is that enough to warrant a clause for all Normals? I don't think so. Chansey, Porygon 2, and Meloetta maintain great supportive presences with their new moves and yeah, sometimes they go offensive too, but are they broken? Not at all.
- The current viability ranking has 0 Normals in S rank. Yes we just banned one from it ... but nothing else can fill the void as reliably. In A rank, we have 4. If we include Pokemon with access to Normal we have 6. I'm advocating we add Stoutland to A (once I'm done with this post), giving us 7. Sounds like a lot, but we already have 9 Flying-types in A, 12 if you consider pre-evo access. There are also 3 Flying-types in S (4 if you want to get technical). If any type is more defining than Normal in STABmons right now, it's Flying.
- To expand on point #1, here are explanations as to why we banned what we banned:
- Sylveon - Pixilate-boosted Boomburst (140 BP STAB), Extreme Speed, setup with Shell Smash
- Porygon-Z - Boomburst (140 BP STAB) backed up by Adaptability
- Mega Altaria - see Sylveon and add better typing, Speed, and bulk
- Mega Metagross - Tough Claws-boosted Heavy Slam (??? BP STAB), setup with Shift Gear, enormous bulk
- Mega Lopunny - Scrappy Belly Drum Extreme Speed and STAB Drain Punch, amazing Speed
- Mega Slowbro - Free setup without fear of crits, enormous bulk
- Keldeo - Combination of Speed, Special Attack, and usually Water Spout (150 BP STAB at its strongest)
- Diggersby - Huge Power-boosted FakeSpeed and setup
Most of the time it was a very strong STAB move that contributed to the ban (Sylveon, Porygon-Z, Mega Altaria, Metagross, Keldeo) and/or setup on steroids (all of them bar Keldeo who had a slow Calm Mind). These Pokemon were not banned for one trait; it was the combination of things that made them broken. Is ScrappyDrum broken? That's yet to be determined, but keep in mind nothing else has the combination of Speed, Power, and STAB Fighting that Lopunny had. Kangaskhan and Stoutland are big threats now, but they've always had ScrappyDrum. What makes them broken all of the sudden? The reason we're seeing them is because the opportunity cost of using Diggersby is out of the question.
So let's not rush to condemn all Normals. Let's approach Pokemon based on their merits individually and then how they interact with the metagame. Kangaskhan on an individual level has a crazy boosting move, +2 STAB priority, and Drain Punch for great coverage! But-- Only 90 Speed. Only 95 Attack. Vulnerable to revenging by faster Pokemon if it doesn't have Protect. Vulnerable to King's Shield. Vulnerable to phazing. Can't break Unaware without Lovely Kiss. Predictable as hell.
Let's adapt, or at least try to. Protect blocking your FakeSpeed combo to revenge Kangaskhan? Pack Feint. Want a more defensive answer? Start using Skarmory again! Or keep using Quagsire and Clefable. Those are a few answers to consider.
Tl;dr. STABmons favors Normals because there are more Normal moves than anything other type, no contest. However, the Limited Normals clause is arbitrary. "Normals get a lot so let's limit them." Flying doesn't even get a boosting move but look how centralizing Flying-types are! Bug gets crazy setup in Quiver Dance and Tail Glow but look how marginalized they are! It's the combination of attributes that determines a Pokemon's place in STABmons. Normal is fortunate to gain the most all in one bang, but it's not the inherent fact that they are Normals that makes them broken, it's the bigger picture.[/INDENT]
To add to all that, I'd like to point out that the flexibility is often a major factor in what makes Normal types great, and restricting Pokemon to one added Normal move, while it would block some of the powerful combinations like Shell Smash+Boomburst and FakeSpeed, it wouldn't remove that fundamental flexibility, nor would it actually deny stuff like Porygon-Z's Adaptability-boosted Boomburst. I basically feel like it's an inadequate solution to a problem that doesn't necessarily exist.
Honestly if you ask me, the issue is not the pure normal type itself, but the fact that a lot of the mons that became broken gained a secondary very powerful typing on top of it that made it extremely hard to deal with.
Mega Altaria's normals became fairy, fairy is a powerful offensive type and it had the natural move pool to back it up. Sylveon also gained the fairyzation that made it very difficult to stop due of its ability to just sheer over power its way through.
Diggersby wasnt broken before it got the ORAS tutors, and perciple blades to back up its powerful e speed.
Mega lopunny gained fighting type on top of its scrappy and already had access to powerful fighting type moves like high jump kick and drain punch which made it unwallable due of its extreme neutral coverage.
Only one that didnt do this was porygon-z but even then it had the insane nuke of adabtability and was able to compensate with sheer power.
Infact, most of the mono normals tend to seem very good on paper, but just outright fail in practise because they dont have the amazing secondary or ability to back up the potential of the powerful normal type moves.
The scrappy normals with their belly speed are pretty threatening, thats for sure, but they still lack secondary stabs to help with wall breaking on what could potentially stop them due of lack of STAB outside their e speeding.
Mega Altaria's normals became fairy, fairy is a powerful offensive type and it had the natural move pool to back it up. Sylveon also gained the fairyzation that made it very difficult to stop due of its ability to just sheer over power its way through.
Diggersby wasnt broken before it got the ORAS tutors, and perciple blades to back up its powerful e speed.
Mega lopunny gained fighting type on top of its scrappy and already had access to powerful fighting type moves like high jump kick and drain punch which made it unwallable due of its extreme neutral coverage.
Only one that didnt do this was porygon-z but even then it had the insane nuke of adabtability and was able to compensate with sheer power.
Infact, most of the mono normals tend to seem very good on paper, but just outright fail in practise because they dont have the amazing secondary or ability to back up the potential of the powerful normal type moves.
The scrappy normals with their belly speed are pretty threatening, thats for sure, but they still lack secondary stabs to help with wall breaking on what could potentially stop them due of lack of STAB outside their e speeding.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
eeeeeh...the only REAL flying types that even GAIN anything new are gyarados, landorus therian and thundrus too i guess. otherwise all the other flying types have what they need for flying, and only gain more due to well...a different typing... on top of that flying type has always been the dominant types in 6th gen, and the fact that they are all still good doesn't actually prove your last point. talonflame, landorus, thundurus, pinsir-mega, they are all still OU(well, barring pinsir) even without their stabmons boost.
and the exact opposite can be said for bug...well...bugs might get quiver dance and tail glow...but bugs are known for either being physically orientated (in which they all basically gain everything anyways) or they are all fairly mediocre barring volcarona/galvantula. pretty much the only VIABLE specially orientated bug types. (and now we have yanmega, which speed boost Tail glow oblivion wing).
dont get me wrong, its obviously NOT solely due to their new movepools that they are OP/suckish in this meta, but you cannot dismiss on what extra their typings gain from stabs, what im saying, is if flying types were always good, and bug types were always bad(in this scenario). then why is suddenly a type that was borderline bad (take a look at how many normal types are OU/UU and are NOT flying type.) suddenly are the #1 best type in the metagame. sure one could say OU and stabmons aren't similar in terms of meta patterns, but why does flying, fire, water, rock, bug, and whatnot all stay at around the same level of viability, meanwhile normal types suddenly surpass everything? obviously because normal stab tends to fix every problem normal types have, and thensome
now, the question is, is this a bad thing? is normal types sudden dominance a bad thing, or is it just different. if the metagame becomes somewhat more stally (offense IS still perfectly viable) can you say without a doubt that its a "bad" meta, without having a bias on either side? again, i'm not implying anything, i'm just saying.
do i agree with their solution? nope. lmao. i agree fully that a restriction on normal pokemon is a bit arbitrary. if i were to make a solution, id probably consider a 1 normal stabber poke per team. so say, you can run 2 normal types, but only one gains access to stab normal moves. but thats most likely a complex ban, so id say just remove normal stabbing altogether IF we all deem it as a problem.
EV
Banned deucer.
I don't like debating with people who are on the same side as me but you're really selling Flying-types short. To say only Gyara, Landorus-T, and Thundurus are the only ones to gain from STABmons is totally false.
- Aerodactyl and its mega gain no-recoil Brave Bird and Tough Claws-boosted Dragon Ascent. They wouldn't be A and S rank without them.
- Landorus has Oblivion Wing (or Hurricane boosted by Sheer Force) and physical sets have Dragon Ascent. Flying+Ground STAB coverage is amazing. It would be Ubers in OU with it.
- Charizard-Y gains Oblivion Wing to mediate its weakness to SR.
- Togekiss gains Oblivion Wing, Aeroblast (Super Luck), and Hurricane (Serene Grace).
- Gliscor has no compatibility issues anymore with Roost/Defog (thought that might not be the case in OU either, idr) and Brave Bird combos nicely with Poison Heal.
- Talonflame gains a Flying-type Close Combat, which it appreciates way more than Brave Bird's recoil. Braviary as well.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
i guess i did undersell the fact that they gain stronger(or different type of recoil) attacks, still doesn't deter my main point that gyara, landorus, and thundurus are the only ones to gain NEW stab off flying, as in, the other flying types you mentioned DID have decent flying moves previously, but now get better ones (except aero, lando and gliscor) however, yeah, i do agree i did undersell them, i just meant that its not JUST because of what flying types gain that makes them so centralizing.
I'm replying to this post first because it bothers me to most. I highly dislike the bias against Stall present in this argument. First you reason that stall dominates the meta with Pokemon like Aegislash and Heatran. I completely disagree, stall is not dominent in the meta, and the mentioned Pokemon do not take very stally roles. Heatran and Aegislash are notable in the Stabmons meta because of their typing, bulk and ability to hit hard. Not to mention both have Shift Gear and Doom Desire sets. Ferrothorn is known for his great team support (Spore, Hazards) and Gyro Ball. Sableye is supposed to keep set up from getting out of hand but i've noticed its so much less effective in the current meta thanks to Azumarill and Scrappy Belly Drum. These Pokemon aren't creating a long grindy metagame.
Also saying the One-Move clause is a bad idea cause it makes Normals easier to counter makes no sense because the problem is that Normals are very hard to check/counter. Thats why this discussion was brought up.
Whatever happened to the "creativity" that was expected? Obviously didn't happen. And stall is definitely taking over as more and more stallbreakers are being banned and sent off.
I am not against the bans, but look what the bans have led to. I have no problem playing the stall game, but do you really want non-regular or new players to start off by facing stall? Sure would demotivate them against the tier.
In the hopes of balancing the tier, I believe you've tilted the scales too much.
I am not against the bans, but look what the bans have led to. I have no problem playing the stall game, but do you really want non-regular or new players to start off by facing stall? Sure would demotivate them against the tier.
In the hopes of balancing the tier, I believe you've tilted the scales too much.
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