Gen 3 Stall Play (RMT)

[Karrot]

Cloyster (F) @ Leftovers
Rapid Spin / Explosion
Spikes
Surf
Toxic
Spikes are imperative to my team's success. This Cloyster set revolves around the idea of keeping Spikes out as long as possible, and as such Toxic serves a large role in wearing down Rapid Spinners. Without Rest, I am more focused on keeping it alive, which means I will play Cloyster as carefully as possible (which can only be a good thing).

Explosion is something I am willing to try out at the risk of losing the valuable Rapid Spin. If I can knock out Raikou/Zapdos with a quick Explosion then that's just one more step towards winning the game.

Raichu (F) @ Leftovers
Encore
Rest
Thunderbolt
Toxic
Raichu is the Pokemon that inspired this team. When I was rigorously putting this team together I tried to preserve this Raichu the most. That said, it's the only Pokemon I haven't switched around.

This old stall warrior is brought back from the dead to serve my team once more. Encore is a tricky move, and is great for high risk situations, such as battling against Drumlax and SD Marowak with no speed boosts. It can also give Blissey a hard time if it feels like using Raichu as a free Heal Bell, among other things.

Slowbro (F) @ Leftovers
Psychic
Rest
Sleep Talk
Surf
Resttalking Slowbro lasts forever and provides an excellent defense against fighting types. It also matches against Nidoking fairly well, being able to either strike it super effective or restore HP during its sleep.

Steelix (M) @ Leftovers
Curse
Earthquake
Explosion / Rock Slide
Roar
Steelix is my main electric defense and my only pseudo-hazer. Explosion is a necessity, especially when I need to bring down a specific Pokemon (Rock Slide might be better to keep Zapdos at bay). I might eventually swap Curse for Screech, though, to maximize Spikes damage.

Meganium (F) @ Leftovers
Leech Seed
Razor Leaf
Reflect
Rest
Meganium provides excellent support for my team. Rest allows it the luxury of curing status effects without the use of Heal Bell, while its heavy defenses keep it from falling during its nap. Light Screen is a possibility (most likely over Leech Seed) to help Machamp out during its screen time, but I'm not sure if it's the best choice as Meganium.

Machamp (M) @ Leftovers
Curse
Hidden Power [Ghost]
Rest
Vital Throw
Despite my hatred towards Machamp, it can't be helped that it fits so perfectly with the rest of the team. With Spikes down and a poisoned Starmie, it is highly probable for this beast to destroy it under the pressure of its powerful attacks, especially if that Starmie happens to not be carrying Reflect. Machamp also provides me with much-needed Tyranitar/Heracross defense without being useless.
Note: I chose Vital Throw over Cross Chop because of PP/Accuracy issues.​

What I'm really trying to find is the "perfect" setup for this team. I am turning to Smogon's GSC community to aid in this (although I am showing off the team more than anything else).

Yes, I am pretty weak to Houndoom.

P.S.: DP sucks.

 

[Falkner12]

How do you normally handle Exeggutor? Because, by the looks of it, Eggy can switch into pretty much any of your pokemon, save Machamp, and do what it wants. Unfortunately, I don't know exactly what would fix such a problem (if that should even be considered a problem to begin with) and anything done to cure said weak seems to only conflict even more with your Houndoom weak. :/

 

[Borat]

OU team w/o Snorlax is nonsense.

Raichu is really iffy here. It's a great set, but Raichi is a role player, not a focal point.

Not a fan of Meganium; pin-point its role and replace it.

Suicune does everything that Slowbro does but better. Fighting types is a great term to classify "Machamp and Heracross".

Overall, revamp the team; focus around Machamp.

 

[Pocket]

It's a very nice team, Karrot =]. I heart the coverage!

You're right, though, out of every possible threat, everything is covered here and there except for Houndoom. You can still play resistance between Machamp and Slowbro and weaken it with Spikes, but if it's a Rest Talker, Houndoom could afford to switch out for another time.

One thing you could do is replace Slowbro with Slowking. Slowking's 318 Sp Def allows it to survive 2 Houndoom's Crunches compared to Slowbro's 1 Crunch. It can still survive 3 Ttar's Rock Slides and 3 Nidoking's EQ, but now has the durability to survive 2 Ttar's Crunches and 2 Nidoking's Thunder (Slowbro is 2hkoed by Crunch on average, and Slowbro is 2hkoed by Nido's Thunder with Spikes). Nidoking's Tbolt doesn't 3hko Slowking. The only problem I could see is that Slowking is 3hkoed by Snorlax's Return. However, your team, with Meganium's Reflect, Steelix, Curses, Encore, Leech Seed, and Rests, you already have a solid defense for physical threats imo.

Another option is replacing Steelix with a Houndoom counter. I mean, Meganium and Raichu already covers Electric, Machamp covers Heracross, Dark moves, and Rock Slides, Slowbro covers Psychic, Raichu and Machamp both covers Gengar; it seems like Steelix's many defensive roles are already partitioned across the team members. All you really need in Steelix spot is a Houndoom counter and a Normal resist. I think Ttar fits the bill here. Ttar has solid defense, and can phaze with Roar or Screech. Furthermore, it has offense to really take advantages of Spikes and can deal with Starmie if it has Crunch.

Or you could simply add Suicune (it can resttalk) > Slowbro and an Exeggutor > Meganium. Exeggutor seems less unstable than Meganium, but it can still Leech Seed and Reflect if it needs, too. Suicune and Exeggutor still provides Fire, Fighting, and Ground resist with an addition of some Houndoom protection (although Eggy is weak to Doom's Pursuit =/). Exeggutor is a less reliable Electric counter, however, so you might want to keep Steelix here.

Or you could have Meganium use EQ over Reflect / Leech Seed =d. Other than Houndoom, EQ hits Raikou, Tentacruel, Gengar, and Nidoking, so it's not a bad deal.

Finally, I have to say that I prefer Machamp with Cross Chop than Vital Throw =[. Sure, Vital Throw is 100% accurate, has more PP, and is unphazable after Cursing, but it still doesn't add up to the massive damage that Machamp could cause with Cross Chop's 100 base power and high crit rate. I personally think it is rather hard to set up Curse with Machamp, and so the destructive power of Cross Chop even without Curse is really appealing. Vital Throw needs 1 Curse to match the power of a Cross Chop, and that 1 extra turn could allow the opponent to Rest or kill Machamp. Vital Throw doesn't even OHKO Houndoom or even TTar! Not being able to hit stuff like Snorlax, Rhydon, and Steelix without going last also sucks, too. Machamp's Cross Chop is one of the most reliable way of dispatching a DrumLax after it drums. If you ever get into a Curse war, a ch Cross Chop would certainly help. Karrot, if you haven't given Cross Chop a chance, I'll give it a try before sticking with Vital Throw.

 

[Borat]

@Pocket: Again, Suicune handles both Nidoking and Tyranitar without leaving anything to chance.

 

[Pocket]

Yea, I was going to say that, too...haven't really supported Suicune much in my post I guess, even though I was thinking about it. Suicune has much better Defense and Special Defense than Slowbro or Slowking, ties in Speed with Nidoking, and is a 100% safe-proof counter to Houndoom. The only thing it doesn't have that Slowbro has is Machamp resist, which Exeggutor handles.

 

[GreenPikachu]

OU team w/o Snorlax is nonsense.

not true. one of my best teams ever was raikou/cloyster/marowak/blissey/heracross/skarmory. it was majorly dominant for a while. probably still can be. but i don't like using the team anymore.

 

[Clefairy{m}]

OU team w/o Snorlax is nonsense.

You make some bold claims. Nearly as much as me. I know Snorlax's overall versatility cant be denied, but not having Lax in a team means you've got one more poke to counter it =). Especially if the team already has enough cover for special attacks.

Green Pikachu is right. There’s actually been a lot of great teams without Snorlax in it. Ever heard of Celia/NeoKafka?

Also I wouldn’t put Lax in the same team as Blissey, and if I was thinking about using Curse Lax there's a good chance I'd use @Curse/Frustration/Roar/Rest Kanga instead.

 

[Borat]

not true.

Very true.

raikou/cloyster/marowak/blissey/heracross/skarmory

How long ago was that? I can't see it being that effective, unless everyone else ran stall. But of course, that was the case 4 years ago, so I wouldn't be surprised.

Bob ran Forretress/Starmie/Skarmory/Snorlax/Blissey/Missy and raped face. He moved on.

VIL ran Snorlax/Celebi/Raichu/Cloyster/Machamp(Donphan?)/Umbreon and raped face. He moved on.

You make some bold claims. Nearly as much as me.

This is GSC.

I know Snorlax's overall versatility cant be denied, but not having Lax in a team means you've got one more poke to counter it =). Especially if the team already has enough cover for special attacks.

Snorlax is the biggest threat in GSC (which you acknowledged in bold). Why the hell aren't you running it?

Green Pikachu is right.

Is he really?

There’s actually been a lot of great teams without Snorlax in it. Ever heard of Celia/NeoKafka?

Yes, I played him/her in his/her prime, and you? Drumlax was non-existent back then. Drumlax WRECKED his/her team flatout. Ask him/her.

And people back then CONSTANTLY complained about Skarmbliss... I mean COME ON. More close-minded thinking please.

Also I wouldn’t put Lax in the same team as Blissey

Snorlax goes on every team.

and if I was thinking about using Curse Lax there's a good chance I'd use @Curse/Frustration/Roar/Rest Kanga instead.

Inferior set. Growl anything plz.

The two most dangerous Pokemon in GSC is Snorlax and Gengar, in that order (OMG another bold claim).

 

[Clefairy{m}]

Borat strikes bk

When I said Green Pikachu is right. I meant it as, "he is right that a good team can be made without Lax" However if where talking about the overall success or Stall teams Vs Attacking teams at this moment in time, then your comments have some basis.

I do run Snorlax My Gsc team when I last played was:
Tyranitar @ Curse/Pursuit/Rock Slide/Surf
Snorlax @ Belly Drum/Body Slam/Lovely Kiss/Rest
Suicune @ Rest/Roar/Sleep Talk/Rest
Zapdos @ Drill Peck/Light Screen/Reflect/Thunderbolt
Marowak @ Earthquake/Rest/Rock Slide/Swords Dance
Miltank @ Body Slam/Curse/Heal Bell/Milk Drink

Yes, I played him/her in his/her prime, and you? Drumlax was non-existent back then. Drumlax WRECKED his/her team flatout. Ask him/her.

And people back then CONSTANTLY complained about Skarmbliss... I mean COME ON. More close-minded thinking please.

Whether or not Drumlax owns his team, it was still great. DrumLax is used more now yes, however the no.2 person on Ladderbots at the time "charizard_trainer" ran DrumLax. I don't remember if "cursed_snorlax" the no.1 guy on ladderbot ran DrumLax.

I could get into a rant about who was around 1st, but lets just say Vineon is only one of the few people who was around before me. Which doesn’t make any difference really because as I don't get involved in the community like Obi, Amazing Amapharos etc for that comment to mean anything.

Inferior set. Growl anything plz.

If you say so. Growl anything, heh. Good thing no ones using Growl atm, oh wait... I did see a Growl Miltank a round 9 months ago in a smogon Tour which also stalled CurseLax. Last time I used CurseLax, I remember feeling dirty, and bored. I'd used CursePorygon2 over CurseLax also.

 

[green_flash]

A Nidoking adept to the fire + electric combo can possibly be a problem, also being capable of coming in on Raichu any day of the week... a starting Nido could be pretty problematic, since it could decide to go either with Lovely Kiss or Thunder, and Slowbro cannot really afford to take the Thunder =/ All in all the team seems pretty great, altough I'd recommend the same changes suggested by Pocket, Suicune + Eggy over Slowbro + Meg.

 

[havoc]

How long ago was that? I can't see it being that effective, unless everyone else ran stall. But of course, that was the case 4 years ago, so I wouldn't be surprised.

Bob ran Forretress/Starmie/Skarmory/Snorlax/Blissey/Missy and raped face. He moved on.

VIL ran Snorlax/Celebi/Raichu/Cloyster/Machamp(Donphan?)/Umbreon and raped face. He moved on.

as much as I hate Bob, he made teams without Snorlax that were successful.

and actually you're wrong, that VIL team you're referring to had Rhydon, not Snorlax which is a rather big difference imo! get your facts straight please! I faced it plenty of times with my Snorlax-less first team, Meganium/Starmie/Raikou/Steelix/Hitmonlee/Gyarados!

ps Celebi is uber :)

an overused team without Snorlax is not a novel idea. Snorlax is the best pokemon in GSC, but that doesn't really mean he's the only one. maybe people shoot for variety. maybe Snorlax is too fat for them. maybe they enjoy the challenge of not using him. maybe you're cool and can run a girl pokemon team and win like that. :)

 

[havoc]

I will do a long drawn-out rating later because I feel like talking pokemon BUT let me give you some pointers!

~if you're going to use fragile pokemon like Raichu and Machamp on a stall team, you'll probably need something with Heal Bell. it's not impossible to do so without Blissey or Miltank, but it's tough.

~due to this fragility combined with a lack of direct attacking power, you make yourself vulnerable to many hard-hitting things that require little or no setup to switch in easily. one good example is Zapdos--you really only have one way to hit it effectively, and Steelix isn't exactly going to pound on whatever switches in on it. other things you may want to look out for: Porygon2, Nidoking, Tentacruel (depending on Rest/Sleep talk is iffy at best :/), Exeggutor, Snorlax.

 

[Borat]

he is right that a good team can be made without Lax

The keyword that makes his statement true is "can" (if he used "is" in place of "can", it'd actually be a claim of some sort. But as it stands, "can" deduces chance). Yes you can, but it doesn't change the fact that teams are almost always made better with the addition of Snorlax.

If you say so. Growl anything, heh. Good thing no ones using Growl atm, oh wait... I did see a Growl Miltank a round 9 months ago in a smogon Tour which also stalled CurseLax. Last time I used CurseLax, I remember feeling dirty, and bored. I'd used CursePorygon2 over CurseLax also.

It's better to assume the meta to be as diverse as possible. Being close-minded into thinking certain playstyles/sets no longer exist and therefore are not threats leads to inefficient battling, which is why Celia can still eke out Tour wins after several years hiatus.

And I've never been an advocate of curselax, it's the most predictable and consequently, the easiest to counter yet. I do, however, advocate Drumlax as being the only Pokemon who can break a stall on its own. There are no tried-and-true counters to Drumlax.

as much as I hate Bob, he made teams without Snorlax that were successful.

So has hundreds of others. Doesn't change the fact that teams are almost always made better with the addition of Snorlax. And if I remember correctly, Bob pioneered Toxiclax.

and actually you're wrong, that VIL team you're referring to had Rhydon, not Snorlax which is a rather big difference imo! get your facts straight please! I faced it plenty of times with my Snorlax-less first team, Meganium/Starmie/Raikou/Steelix/Hitmonlee/Gyarados!

Forgive me, I just remember it to be extremely Hera-weak, I digress. The argument here is "they moved on", meaning they know their teams are outdated. It doesn't say much when you bring up old teams that were effective back then, unless the same claim can be made on that old team now. I ran Raikou/Nido(when it was fucking cool to do so)/Starmie/Skarmory/Snorlax(the fucking badass Thunder kind)/Tenta(when it was fucking cool to do so); it probably isn't as effective as it is now as it was back then.

an overused team without Snorlax is not a novel idea. Snorlax is the best pokemon in GSC, but that doesn't really mean he's the only one. maybe people shoot for variety. maybe Snorlax is too fat for them. maybe they enjoy the challenge of not using him. maybe you're cool and can run a girl pokemon team and win like that. :)

If you're going for creativity, Snorlax should be the first Pokemon off the list. But when you're going for effectiveness, it should be the first Pokemon on it.

And Raichu generally Rests through the inevitable Raikou/Zapdos matchup. I could be wrong though, but that's generally how electrics roll.

And using this team as example, -Meganium, +Snorlax.

EDIT: Also, "good" is a comparative word. Raticate is "good" compared to Yanma, but Raticate is "bad" compared to Slowbro. Yeah, that's the ticket.

 

[Clefairy{m}]

What have you changed to your post Karrot? I see that you've edited today but nothing seems to have changed.

 

[havoc]

"Yes you can, but it doesn't change the fact that teams are almost always made better with the addition of Snorlax."

the phrase "almost always" kind of implies chance as well :/

the point I was making with my post is that "OU team w/o Snorlax is nonsense" is not really a helpful suggestion ;[

 

[Borat]

It was meant to imply "+Snorlax". It solves the whole Houndoom problem anyway.

 

[Elite]

Karrot, still remember me? We used to have long GSC battles. Thought I'd drop by the forums, having had such a long absence. Your team is great, but I do have to agree with some of the stuff the other guys mentioned, like yout team being not-so-effective at handling Doom and Suicune being better than Slowbro at bulk.

Seems like I happened to trespass on a most unfortunate time, what with a ravage going strong and all, but hey I'll still leave this comment here. =D

Wishing all well