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DPP OU Stall Team

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by david stone, Nov 2, 2008.

  1. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
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    This is pretty much all repost from my old thread (thank you, archive.org). People kept bugging me about X or Y about my team, so I figured I'd repost. Hope I'm not breaking any rules! Just about all I changed is a bit of formatting. I'm also adding a couple comments about what I might change if I were to use this team now.

    Team

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Hippowdon @ Leftovers *** Daedalus
    Ability: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 24 Atk / 192 Def / 40 SpD
    Impish nature (+Def, -SpA)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Slack Off
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Fang / Roar

    Putting down Stealth Rock ASAP negates Focus Sash (as does Sand Stream, but some dudes are immune to that). Stealth Rock removes the possibility of a Bellyzard sweep with Sand Stream support. The first two parts of my "secondary" damage.

    Now that Garchomp is banned, the need for Ice Fang is reduced. Dragonite and Salamence do not hit nearly as hard with Outrage, and they are weak to SR and are hit by SS. For this reason, I would definitely consider Roar over Ice Fang, as most Pokemon will be hit harder by entry hazards than by Ice Fang, and another phazer is always nice, especially as a lead (screw you, Ninjask).

    To explain the EVs, max HP maximizes overall defenses. 192 Def with an Impish nature gives 2 more points than 188, which helps maximize overall physical defensiveness. The 24 Attack guaranteed a certain amount of damage on a Pokemon that I have since forgotten, and the rest went into Special Defense to take stuff like Hidden Power from Electrics.


    [​IMG]

    Skarmory @ Shed Shell *** Icarus
    Ability: Keen Eye
    EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 40 SpD / 16 Spe
    Impish nature (+Def, -SpA)
    - Whirlwind
    - Spikes
    - Roost
    - Brave Bird

    The next part of my "secondary" damage, Spikes. Skarmory has some great resistances to abuse here. It helps Whirlwind out stat-uppers like Curse Miltank and Snorlax, as well as just phazing stuff to rack up Spikes damage. I use Shed Shell because Magnezone is a punk. Brave Bird is needed to do something useful to Starmie, Tentacruel, and Gyarados, 3 big opponents to stall teams who think they can take on Skarmory.

    I moved those 16 EVs from Attack to Speed on this posting, because that's where they were supposed to be. It's primarily to beat other Skarmory to the WW.


    [​IMG]

    Tentacruel @ Leftovers *** Morpheus
    Ability: Liquid Ooze
    EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD
    Calm nature (+SpD, -Atk)
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Surf
    - Hidden Power [Electric] / Knock Off

    The last part of my "secondary" damage, Toxic Spikes. Rapid Spin + Knock Off is illegal, so I decided on Rapid Spin here. Toxic Spikes means Restless Dusknoir and Spiritomb can't stop me, and Gengar is too frail to keep coming in (and can't OHKO Tentacruel, anyway). Hidden Power Electric helps vs. Empoleon, Starmie, enemy Tentacruel, and Gyarados, mostly, all of which are more common foes for Tentacruel than Garchomp, Dragonite, Celebi, or Salamence.

    Now that Tentacruel can use Knock Off and Rapid Spin, Knock Off is definitely an excellent choice. HP Electric would mostly be for keeping enemy Tentacruel at bay and as a back-up against Ice Fang / Bite Gyarados, while Knock Off screws over everyone.


    [​IMG]

    Blissey @ Leftovers *** Helios
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 Def / 40 SpA / 216 SpD
    Calm nature (+SpD, -Atk)
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Flamethrower
    - Toxic

    Yes, I know what you're thinking, "Calm Blissey with tons of Special Defense EVs!? Are you crazy? Toxic on a team with Toxic Spikes? Are you insane?" Well, yes, I am, but that's irrelevant to this.

    First, Toxic. 3 of the biggest special attacking threats, Azelf, Togekiss, and Zapdos, are completely immune to Toxic Spikes, and two of those have Roost and / or Wish to heal themselves, meaning Blissey normally cannot KO them. With Toxic, Blissey can just hit them with that and start stalling. Wish + Protect helps further this, so that Blissey can take on that Nasty Plot Aura Sphere Togekiss that thinks it is a Blissey counter because it has Roost.

    Blissey has all that Special Defense because it needs it. This isn't ADV, people. The level of special attacking power available this generation easily exceeds ADV ubers, and nobody questioned using Special Defense EVs and Calm there (at least not at the end when people realized it isn't OU). Blissey needs Special Defense EVs if it plans to stand up to the likes of Nasty Plot Aura Sphere Togekiss, Focus Blast Gengar, and yes, with this spread, Blissey even has a shot at surviving the much acclaimed Modest Life Orb Nasty Plot Adaptability Hyper Beam PorygonZ (although Blissey isn't usually my first switch into that). It will always survive the same from +SpA Download PorygonZ (although it will sometimes fall to Sandstorm afterward). Blissey needs it to survive Choice Specs Flash Fire Fire Blasts from Heatran.

    My next big issue here was what form of healing to use on Blissey. In the end, I decided that Tentacruel lacks its own way to heal, so Wish would be useful there. Wish also tends to be passed to the only other member of the team without reliable healing, Spiritomb. If you'll notice, both Tentacruel and Spiritomb resist or are immune to Blissey's weakness, Fighting. So I had to choose between Wish and Softboiled or Wish and Protect. I eschewed Softboiled in favor of Protect for a few reasons. First, Choice Banders love to switch into Blissey when they realize I don't have Thunder Wave, especially Heracross. Protect first, and suddenly they aren't so threatening. Blissey can easily stall that Choice Band Heracross that tries to use Pursuit. Meanwhile, Sandstorm is wearing them down. Protect has also caught so many Gengar, Azelf, Heatran, and Bronzong Explosions for me. Finally, Wish + Protect leaves me vulnerable to a critical hit from something like Aura Sphere Togekiss half as often as Softboiled spamming would for the same amount of Toxistalling.

    So the only thing left unexplained is my final move, Flamethrower. My options, really, were Seismic Toss, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Flamethrower, Grass Knot, Psychic (lol). One requirement was that Blissey had to be able to hit Gengar, or else I'd be weak to a Life Orb Gengar with Focus Punch or Focus Blast, so Seismic Toss and Grass Knot were instantly thrown out. After that, it was just "What kind of stuff likes to switch into Blissey, and what can't Blissey reliably take on with Toxic that it could beat with another move?"

    If I can't break Abomasnow's Substitutes, I'd have to use Sludge Bomb on Tentacruel, or I'd lose to that. Substitute Raikou could at least be forced out thanks to Celebi, and it would slowly be worn down by Sandstorm and its own Substitutes, if nothing else, so it wasn't as critical as Abomasnow. Blissey is supposed to wall SpecsMence, but it's not going to get through Blissey ever unless it gets 2 CHes or a CH and tons of spike clones are down, and in neither of those cases do I even get a chance to attack, anyway, so as long as I can do something to it, I'll win out in the end. If need be, it can be hit with Toxic, Sandstorm stalled with Protect and Wish, and just generally worn down thanks to Stealth Rock. Physical versions are just going to OHKO Blissey after a set-up or 2HKO with Choice Band Dragon Claw or whatever, so once again, Blissey can't hit it.

    Heracross, Weavile, Tyranitar, and Lucario like to switch into Blissey. Flamethrower hits 3 of those SE, and barely dents Tyranitar. Thunderbolt is neutral on all (and neutral may as well be NVE for all it does to most of these guys). Ice Beam is resisted by 2 and neutral on the others (ah, that's even worse!). Psychic is SE on Heracross, neutral on Lucario, and doesn't touch Weavile or Tyranitar. Flamethrower obviously has the best coverage for stuff that generally switches into Blissey.

    Flamethrower has also netted me several Forretress kills and a few Scizor kills. It lets Blissey beat those annoying Skarmory, because it's still SE, even if they Roost.

    If you'll notice, I cannot touch Heatran at all. However, Heatran is almost always Scarfed or Specsed. This means it's easily PP stalled out of its Fire move (Overheat and Fire Blast have 8 PP). However, I'll still have to kill it eventually. Fortunately, Tentacruel is a Special Defensive beast. The only way Heatran is even considering touching it is with Earth Power, which does pittance to Celebi and less to Skarmory. Without Choice Specs, it won't do enough to Tentacruel in case someone suggests a non-Choice item Heatran as a way to beat my team. I guess I do have a Substitute, Flamethrower, Nasty Plot, HP Electric / HP Ground Houndoom weakness, but whatever.

    With the rise of Heatran in Platinum (and the fall of guys like Weavile), I would very well consider something like Thunderbolt so I can at least touch Heatran (and thus not instantly lose to Taunt Heatran), because I don't like to overload Tentacruel.


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    Celebi @ Leftovers *** Celobi
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 8 SpD / 32 Spe
    Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Recover
    - Perish Song
    - Grass Knot
    - U-turn

    Ah, my main Gyarados counter, and the reason I don't lose to last Pokemon <stat-upper that can block Toxic in some way>. Also the best answer to Baton Pass chains.

    Grass Knot obviously works to stop Gyarados (it does about 40% to it, so a 2HKO if it's hit by Stealth Rock, 3HKO otherwise). Meanwhile, the only way Gyarados is hurting Celebi at all is with Ice Fang. If it has DD and Ice Fang, then it lacks EQ, meaning Tentacruel can come in and use HP Electric for ~50% damage, or it lacks Waterfall, meaning Skarmory has some fun with Brave Bird, or maybe it lacks Taunt, meaning Skarmory can still Roost and Whirlwind, or, as an absolute last resort, Blissey can Toxic. Grass Knot also covers Tyranitar somewhat, and does a surprising amount of damage to Spiritomb (I don't know about Dusknoir because it's not as common). Celebi with Grass Knot laughs in the face of Hippowdon and Swampert, too.

    Perish Song works as pseudo-phazing, stops BP chains (unless they catch on and Baton Pass Ingrain to Mr. Mime, I guess, but if you got Toxic Spikes down, even that won't fly), and infuriates anything Umbreon tries to pull off. U-Turn lets you switch out and see who they are replacing when they're leaving for fear of Perish Song, and keeps the aforementioned Umbreon from trapping you. I'm still waiting for the day I use U-Turn on the final turn of Perish Song, but they switch to Garchomp, and Sand Veil causes U-Turn to miss, so I end up dying to my own trap.

    The purpose of the EVs is as follows: maximize HP to maximize overall defenses. 32 Speed beats even Jolly Tyranitar, 216 Def with Bold gives me the extra point, and then I put the rest in Special Defense to take Ice Beams slightly better.

    This dude, like the rest of my team members, has an awesome nickname, as well.


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    Spiritomb @ Leftovers *** The Man Who Was Thursday
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 SpD
    Calm nature (+SpD, -Atk)
    - Shadow Ball
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Hidden Power Fighting

    Blocks Rapid Spin, counters Lucario and other fighters. Absorbs Sleep, too. Spiritomb can just wall most stall teams that I've faced.

    I'd consider a Rotom form here now that it has good defensive stats. I would add to the Pursuit weakness, though. However, such a change is beyond the scope of this post, as it would let me majorly rework the team.
  2. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    Team Building Process

    I started out with no Pokemon having guaranteed spots on my team, just certain moves. I knew I wanted Spikes, Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes, and Rapid Spin. I wanted a Ghost to block their Rapid Spin, and Wish is always helpful. The format is Name: (healing moves other than Rest) | HP / Def / SpD. I eliminated garbage like Delibird, and stuff I felt was outclassed on a defensive team, such as Nidoking vs. Nidoqueen. I'm including this list partly because it's where I started, and partly to give other people who want to make a defensive team an idea of what else is out there.


    TOXIC SPIKES:

    Nidoqueen: ()
    90 HP / 87 Def / 85 SpD

    Drapion: ()
    70 HP / 110 Def / 75 SpD

    Cloyster: ()
    50 HP / 180 Def / 45 SpD

    Forretress: ()
    75 HP / 140 Def / 60 SpD

    Tentacruel: ()
    80 HP / 65 Def / 120 SpD

    Omastar: ()
    70 HP / 125 Def / 70 SpD

    For this list, I basically threw out Omastar and Cloyster. Cloyster only has 2 resistances, and only one of them is really ever any use. The Water resistance equates to a Waterfall resistance, since Surf is still doing a lot of damage to Cloyster. This means that Cloyster, if it uses Hidden Power Electric, can stop Gyarados, provided it doesn't have Stone Edge, then it's a toss-up. Omastar is in a similar boat of a poor typing, because everything it resists is usually paired up with something it's weak to. Normal Pokemon usually have Earthquake or a Fighting move. Fire is paired with Fighting or, in the case of Charizard, EQ. Ice goes with Electric or Fighting. Flying, although rarely used, is usually on the Special side and often paired with Aura Sphere from Togekiss. In other words, the two of them have crap defensive typing, so they'd need to be pretty special to make the cut.

    Any Poison type gets the automatic advantage of auto-absorbing Toxic Spikes (that was Cloyster's downfall as a Rapid Spinner, along with the SR weakness, at least when I used it long ago). This left Tentacruel, Forretress, Drapion, and Nidoqueen. Tentacruel and Forretress can Rapid Spin, and Drapion and Tentacruel can Knock Off. Nidoqueen's defensive typing is also one plagued by resistances being paired with its weaknesses. Electric types, as a rule, carry Hidden Power Ice. Rock attacks are almost never seen without Earthquake. So Nidoqueen is also on shaky ground. So I stopped here with this cut down list, and went on.


    SPIKES:

    Cloyster: ()
    50 HP / 180 Def / 45 SpD

    Forretress: ()
    75 HP / 140 Def / 60 SpD

    Omastar: ()
    70 HP / 125 Def / 70 SpD

    Skarmory: (Roost)
    65 HP / 140 Def / 70 SpD

    Again, if possible, I wouldn't use Cloyster, because it sucks. Omastar has an even worse typing as far as I'm concerned, because at least Cloyster walls something (most Gyarados) and has better offensive STAB. This leaves Forretress and Skarmory. Right away, Skarmory has the advantage of Whirlwind, more resistances, the coveted Earthquake immunity for Garchomp (and the lack of the 4x weakness to Garchomp's Fire Fang / Fire Blast), and most importantly, Roost. Forretress, however, has better overall defensive ability, and the almost as important Ice resistance (screw you, Weavile and SubPunch Crunch Ice Beam Tyranitar!). It can also add in Rapid Spin or Toxic Spikes to complete the package. So here, my choice was narrowed down to those two.


    RAPID SPIN

    Cloyster: ()
    50 HP / 180 Def / 45 SpD

    Forretress: ()
    75 HP / 140 Def / 60 SpD

    Tentacruel: ()
    80 HP / 65 Def / 120 SpD

    Hitmontop: ()
    50 HP / 95 Def / 110 SpD

    Sandslash: ()
    75 HP / 110 Def / 65 SpD

    Donphan: ()
    90 HP / 120 Def / 60 SpD

    Claydol: ()
    60 HP / 105 Def / 120 SpD

    Starmie: (Recover)
    60 HP / 85 Def / 85 SpD

    Blastoise: ()
    79 HP / 100 Def / 105 SpD

    Armaldo: ()
    75 HP / 100 Def / 80 SpD

    Torkoal: ()
    70 HP / 140 Def / 70 SpD

    A huge list yes, but many of these Pokemon were quickly eliminated as well. Hitmontop's only purpose would be to stop Tyranitar, so if I had it covered, it's gone. Sandslash is a worse Donphan (who can cover Tyranitar nearly as well as Hitmontop), and Claydol sucks. Blastoise's lack of Recover means I'd rather use the less bulky Starmie. Armaldo just doesn't wall anything. That left Torkoal, Starmie, Donphan, Tentacruel, and Forretress. I liked Torkoal, Starmie, and Tentacruel to stop Infernape. I really wanted to use Donphan because it can Knock Off, Rapid Spin, and use Assurance on those Ghosts (and incoming Azelf / Celebi / Starmie), but because I decided through testing that Hippowdon is just too good not to use with those stats, Sand Stream, and Slack Off, and because Hippowdon and Donphan are too similar, I ended up not using Donphan, lowering it down to Starmie, Tentacruel, and Forretress (Torkoal was eliminated because all it does is stop Infernape and Heatran, something Starmie and Tentacruel do, but they cover other stuff, too).


    GHOSTS

    Drifblim: ()
    150 HP / 44 Def / 54 SpD

    Dusknoir: (Pain Split)
    45 HP / 135 Def / 135 SpD

    Spiritomb: (Pain Split)
    50 HP / 108 Def / 108 SpD

    Drifblim's typing means it's weak to Rock, Ice, and Electric, at least one of which is on most Rapid Spinners. The Stealth Rock weakness also hurt. A statistical analysis shows that Drifblim's HP does not make up for its defenses compared to the other two, either. I started out using Dusknoir here, but eventually switched to Spiritomb primarily because of Pursuit. I liked Dusknoir's ability to wall Heracross, but Spiritomb stops Azelf, Gengar, PorygonZ, and a whole bunch of other threats better (and isn't weak to Pursuit). Woohoo! I finally have a set Pokemon!


    WISH

    Jirachi: (Wish)
    100 HP / 100 Def / 100 SpD

    Blissey: (Softboiled, Wish)
    255 HP / 10 Def / 135 SpD

    Salamence: (Roost, Wish)
    95 HP / 80 Def / 80 SpD

    Togekiss: (Roost, Wish)
    85 HP / 95 Def / 115 SpD

    Kangaskhan: (Wish, Early Bird Rest)
    105 HP / 80 Def / 80 SpD

    Clefable: (Moonlight, Softboiled, Wish)
    95 HP / 73 Def / 90 SpD

    Gardevoir: (Wish)
    68 HP / 65 Def / 115 SpD

    Hypno: (Wish)
    85 HP / 70 Def / 115 SpD

    Lickilicky: (Wish)
    110 HP / 95 Def / 95 SpD

    Wigglytuff: (Wish)
    145 HP / 45 Def / 50 SpD

    Of these, I liked Jirachi, Blissey, Salamence, Kangaskhan, and Gardevoir the most for their Wishing abilities alone. Lickilicky has Knock Off, which means it's OK, and Wigglytuff can Perish Song (and for those underestimating its Special Defense, it can take a SpecsMence Draco Meteor, Wish, and then Protect on the follow up hit, but it needs a ton of EVs to do so, and obviously cannot switch in). In the end, I decided that Lickilicky and Wigglytuff's inability to wall things removed them from consideration. Gardevoir was a cool idea I had to stop Heatran (Trace Flash Fire), heal itself on enemy Blissey (trace Natural Cure), and a whole bunch of other fun scenarios with Trace. I still haven't tested that one, but some day, it will make it onto one of my teams. :)

    Kangaskhan's downfall was that Scrappy and Wish are illegal, and I don't use illegal movesets. I wanted to use Wish, Protect, Roar, Return / Double-Edge with Scrapy (mostly for Gengar). Salamence is cool with Wish, Roar, Draco Meteor, Flamethrower, and further removes any fears of Heracross. I decided I could cover Heracross better with other Pokemon, and selected Jirachi as my first Wisher. I chose it over Blissey because it, unlike Blissey, resisted Togekiss's Air Slash, PorygonZ's Tri Attack and Hyper Beam, and could stop Weavile thanks to the Ice Punch resist and no weakness to Brick Break. Resistance to Stone Edge for CB Tyranitar was just icing on the cake. However, I decided I wanted something that could take random Fire moves (as are common on just about every special and mixed sweeper), so I eventually went to Blissey. Jirachi and Blissey were both functioning in the capacity of the special wall.


    PERISH SONG

    Politoed: ()
    90 HP / 75 Def / 100 SpD

    Mismagius: (Pain Split)
    60 HP / 60 Def / 105 SpD

    Lapras: ()
    130 HP / 80 Def / 95 SpD

    Celebi: (Leech Seed, Recover)
    100 HP / 100 Def / 100 SpD

    Wigglytuff: (Wish)
    145 HP / 45 Def / 50 SpD

    I decided Politoed wishes it were Lapras, thanks to Thunderbolt and STAB Ice Beam, so it sucks. Wigglytuff, as mentioned, can't wall anything. Mismagius was eliminated from the Ghost pool because of its poor Defense. This leaves Lapras and Celebi as Perish Song Pokemon. These, like Wish, were optional.

    So the kind of team I started out with was:

    Drapion / Tentacruel / Forretress
    Skarmory / Forretress
    Starmie / Tentacruel / Forretress
    Dusknoir (eventually changed to Spiritomb, but that's not how it started)
    Jirachi (eventually changed to Blissey)
    ??? Lapras or Celebi ???

    Because Perish Song was the most optional move on here, I should leave that slot open until I know what I need to cover still.

    Forretress appears to be the obvious choice because it can take the slot of 3 team members. However, if I used Spikes and Toxic Spikes on the same set, it wouldn't get a chance to set all of that up against most teams. The main thing is to try and spread out all 3 forms of spikes, so that way you can usually set up at least 2 of the 3 against most teams. This also means you don't want to have like, Skarmory / Forretress / Scizor or something, or teams with Fire moves mean you won't set up anything. For this reason, if I choose Skarmory, I'm probably not using Forretress. Skarmory and Forretress also wall pretty much the same things. Overall, I prefer Skarmory, so if Forretress has suitable replacements in other Pokemon...

    For Toxic Spikes, it was Drapion or Tentacruel, and for Rapid Spin, it was Starmie or Tentacruel. Again, in the interest of not duplicating my walls, I decided not to use Starmie and Tentacruel, since they wall similar things. Drapion and Starmie went on my team, and looking at both, they do an awesome job, so Skarmory, Starmie, and Drapion all work together. This means the team is

    Jirachi
    Skarmory
    Drapion
    Starmie
    Dusknoir
    ???

    Looking at that line-up, I didn't see much wrong with it, except for something like a smart Heatran. To shore up this weakness, as well as to add Sandstorm into the mix to reduce the power of enemy weather teams, I added Tyranitar with DD, Crunch, Ice Beam, EQ to cover a bunch of enemy walls and to clean up at the end. I slapped Stealth Rock on Jirachi, because it had a free slot. However, play testing revealed I had overlooked one important Pokemon: Tyranitar. I realized just how good Hippowdon is, so I added it. This freed up my Jirachi to use Fire Punch instead of Stealth Rock (I was using Wish, Zen Headbutt, U-Turn, Stealth Rock).

    But by removing Tyranitar, I opened myself up to Heatran. Starmie's advantage is that it has Recover and it's fast. Heatran's advantage is that it does over 60% to Starmie with a Fire move, and OHKOs with some other stuff. I was considering making such sweeping changes as adding a Rest, Sleep Talk, Rock Slide / Stone Edge, Whirlwind Aerodactyl in somewhere, possibly by combining Drapion and Starmie into Tentacruel. Instead, I did do that (added Tentacruel), but I replaced Jirachi with Blissey (it helps with SpecsMence). This gave me one free slot, and, realizing how weak losing Starmie makes me to Gyarados, I snuck Celebi into my team. I was worried about Togekiss and Raikou, so I used the Blissey set I have now, except with Snatch over Toxic.

    That didn't work as well as I hoped, because my prediction wasn't accurate 100% of the time (I'm good, but not that good). I dropped Snatch for Toxic and swapped Dusknoir for Spiritomb for reasons mentioned earlier, which is how I got the team I got.

    If you still have any questions on why I chose what I chose (or if you want to know what I chose for movesets and such on the early versions of my team, and why I changed), don't hesitate to ask.

    :toast:

    So in other words, I don't use Cresselia because it doesn't fit. It walls some stuff, but it walls few things better than what I already have (Mixed Salamence and Garchomp come to mind as the exceptions), and it doesn't do anything other than wall them. Every other Pokemon on my team fits one of the aforementioned categories of stuff to do while stalling.
  3. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Threat List

    (lol this is surely outdated, but it's worth posting I think)

    Tyranitar: Hippowdon is my primary Tyranitar wall. Even Ice Beam won't KO Hippowdon from Life Orb Tyranitar, but Earthquake will do a boatload to Tyranitar. If it turns out Tyranitar does have Ice Beam, it does about 60% or so to Hippowdon from max SpA no Life Orb Tyranitar. Then I can just switch to something like Tentacruel and Surf it. Ice Beam versions without Flamethrower or Thunderbolt can be taken on with Skarmory somewhat, in that I can just use Whirlwind on it, and hopefully get some Toxic Spikes down. Substitute, Focus Punch, Dark Pulse, Ice Beam is walled by Tentacruel, Dark Pulse doesn't do enough to Hippowdon if Ice Beam is dropped for Thunderbolt or Flamethrower. Spiritomb can be used as a last-ditch roadblock thanks to Hidden Power Fighting. Hippowdon, Celebi, Tentacruel, and Spiritomb all make somewhat difficult switch-ins for Tyranitar if I know it's coming, or if I'm just spamming attacks.

    Gyarados: Celebi is the best counter. If it doesn't have Ice Fang, it almost always loses to Grass Knot. If it does have Ice Fang, it still usually loses. Hidden Power Electric Tentacruel and Brave Bird Skarmory can also take it on if Celebi has some poor luck against something like Ice Fang Flinch followed by Ice Fang CH, which seems to happen far too often vs. Ice Fang variants.

    Infernape: As long as it doesn't have ThunderPunch or Earthquake, Tentacruel takes it on all day long with some Wish support getting passed along (Nasty Plot Grass Knot is something like a 4-5HKO). ThunderPunch usually doesn't OHKO, from what I've seen, and even Earthquake probably won't from special-oriented Infernape. If it doesn't have a Nasty Plot under its belt, I can let Hippowdon take a big hit and then KO it with Earthquake. Blissey can stall it with Protect and Toxic, and Spiritomb takes Close Combats like a real man.

    Azelf: Spiritomb is probably the best counter in existence for this. It's immune to Psychic, is immune to Explosion, and isn't weak to Flamethrower or Grass Knot, which, combined with its high Special Defense and Rest, means it's not dying any time soon. It can then hit Azelf hard with STAB Shadow Ball.

    Rhyperior: As long as it stays out of Megahorn, Celebi can hit it with Grass Knot. Hippowdon beats it, Tentacruel has higher Speed and STAB Surf, and Skarmory can take a Stone Edge and Whirlwind it out.

    Electivire: Hippowdon is probably the best Electivire counter. Spiritomb and Celebi do OK, depending on the set.

    Heracross: Lots of people see Toxic Spikes and assume "Oh, you must instantly lose to Heracross." No, let me run through my team again for you real quick. Hippowdon won't take much from Stone Edge, Night Slash, or Pursuit, and can Slack Off the damage from Megahorn and Close Combat or just switch to Skarmory or Spiritomb. Skarmory is only hurt by Close Combat, and keeps Heracross out with Brave Bird. Tentacruel has that Megahorn / Close Combat resistance going for it, but really shouldn't be taking those kinds of physical assaults. Blissey can Protect stall with Sandstorm and Toxic damage going up (and then it knows what a Choice Heracross is locked into), and has Flamethrower to damage it on the switch. Celebi can take Close Combats easy. Spiritomb is immune to Close Combat entirely, and can take Stone Edge, Night Slash, and Pursuit. My biggest threat is probably Swords Dance Heracross.

    Salamence: Blissey stops all pure-special versions. Tentacruel can work as back-up in case that goes awry. Skarmory and Hippowdon stop physical versions. Life Orb Salamence with Hydro Pump, Flamethrower, Dragon Claw, Brick Break could, admittedly, give me some trouble, but I think I could stall that with smart siwtching, thanks to Life Orb damage and Sandstorm damage.

    Togekiss: Outside of Toxic Jirachi and Zapdos, my Blissey is probably the best Togekiss counter possible.

    Gengar: Blissey and Spiritomb. Gengar is also stopped by Tentacruel.

    Garchomp: First, let me say that Scarfchomp is totally non-threatening (and it's actually worse than Metal Powder Garchomp vs. my team lol). Choice Band Garchomp is slightly more threatening, but can be beaten with Hippowdon and Skarmory. Swords Dance Life Orb Garchomp, however, is scary for pretty much any team. This, along with DD Dragonite, is the reason I use Ice Fang on Hippowdon no questions asked.

    Raikou: Sand Stream means it has no Leftovers. If it doesn't Substitute, it falls to Blissey's Toxic. if it does, it's just speeding up its own demise. Celebi can take a boosted Hidden Power Ice no problems and Perish Song it, resetting the cycle of it taking spiky damage and it has to lose its Substitute. When its at low enough health, I can just Flamethrower it with Blissey and it won't be able to do enough to Blissey for me to worry about not always breaking the Substitute in one hit, thanks to my Special Defense EVs. Hippowdon can also EQ it if I absolutely have to.

    Lucario: Spiritomb is the best Lucario counter. Celebi is probably a close second, although both have trouble with a Swords Dancer. This is where Hippowdon and, to a lesser extent, Skarmory come in. Even Blissey can do OK vs. it, as long as it's special (Specs Aura Sphere will not OHKO, not even close).

    Tauros: lol Tauros. Skarmory, Spiritomb, Hippowdon. Enough said.

    Starmie: Spiritomb is pumped up on SpD precisely to take on this menace. With Toxic Spikes down, it can't stay in and Recover forever, especially if it's taking Shadow Ball damage. Of course, all but Blissey can do at least 50% damage or so to Starmie, anyway (except maybe Skarmory, who does more like 40%).

    Weavile: Yuck. Choice Band Ice Punch hurts, let me tell you this. If it Freezes Skarmory on the switch, I'm in big trouble. Blissey then has to Protect stall it and try to finish it off with Flamethrower. As long as it's not using Ice Punch behind a Choice Band, I'm OK.

    Dugtrio: This thing is pretty rare, but OK. Can't touch Celebi (even a CH Aerial Ace does little damage lol). Blissey can Toxicstall it. Dugtrio may as well be a fly as far as Skarmory and Hippowdon are concerned. Tentacruel and Spiritomb are a bit more worried, but at least Tentacruel has STAB Surf to tell Dugtrio to stay out.

    Alakazam: Tomb! Also Blissey, and, if it's not using Shadow Ball, Celebi can take it on.

    PorygonZ: Spiritomb is great with HP Fighting, Tri Attack, Hidden Power Fighting, and Hyper Beam immunity, and no weakness to Dark Pulse and Ice Beam. Blissey can also take it on. Tentacruel can survive its Nasty Plot Tri Attack.

    Medicham: This isn't going to touch Spiritomb, and has trouble with Celebi.

    Staraptor: Hippowdon, Skarmory, Spiritomb... What more can you ask for?

    Slowbro: If it's Toxiced, it's not going to stall for much longer. Also Tentacruel uses it to set up if it doesn't have Psychic or, to a lesser extent of care, Thunder Wave.

    Machamp: Not nearly as bad as Heracross thanks to no Megahorn. Spiritomb's Pressure stalls out Stone Edge and DynamicPunch, though, and Hippowdon can take its hits fairly well, as does Celebi.

    Jolteon: Yeah, essentially a worse Raikou as far as my team is concerned.

    Aerodactyl: Hippowdon is the definition of an Aerodactyl counter.

    Snorlax: Skarmory means it can't set up during the game, and Celebi means it can't survive more than 3 turns at the end.

    Zapdos: Toxic stops Roosting versions, and Celebi keeps Resttalkers away with Perish Song.

    Blissey: Pretty much all of my Pokemon beat the standard Blissey, except Tentacruel and Hippowdon somewhat.

    Suicune: Blissey can force it to Rest, Tentacruel can wear it down with HP Electric, Celebi has Grass Knot and Perish Song, and Skarmory can phaze it on Rests.

    Sceptile: Skarmory seems like it can take on Sceptile. As long as it lacks X-Scissor, so can Celebi.

    Breloom: Spiritomb absorbs the Spore and takes Focus Punches, but the real star of this show is Celebi. Grass Knot usually breaks Breloom's Substitutes, so no worries there.

    Slaking: Skarmory and Spiritomb say hello.

    Tangrowth: Hi, I'm Skarmory, and I want to set up Spikes today and use Brave Bird when I'm done. I have Shed Shell instead of Leftovers, so I don't really mind if you use Knock Off on me, as long as there isn't also a Magnezone in there somehwere.

    Ninjask: lol (in other words, Stealth Rock and Skarmory)

    Metagross: If it doesn't have a Choice Band, it's not damaging Hippowdon enough with Meteor Mash or Skarmory enough with ThunderPunch. If you'll notice, Hippowdon is immune to ThunderPunch, and Skarmory resists Meteor Mash. It's a match made in Hell!

    Heatran: Tentacruel is great for this. Blissey can PP stall Overheat and Fire Blast, too, and pass Wishes around to keep Tentacruel happy and healthy.

    Celebi: Skarmory ought to keep almost any set from passing anything.

    Jirachi: Most Jirachi are physical (aka walled by Hippowdon), but there are some special Jirachi (aka walled by Celebi).
  4. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    I should probably explain why I posted this.

    In part, it's because I keep getting PMs every once in a while asking about it. It's also because I plan on making a guide to stalling, and I already did a lot of the work with this team, so I figured I'd bring it back up. However, the art of stalling would need updating for Platinum a bit, so people should discuss it.
  5. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    To evade simple, yet constant applauds, perhaps you should close this thread and keep it as a guideline for pure stall. I would be more than happy to keep this thread as a frame of reference. Sticky this topic?

    Considering the ammount of time and effort you have put into this team, the only suggestions people may offer only weigh-off weaknesses in another direction; after all, no team is perfect. People's rates won't be of much use, neither are you expecting any worthwhile rates.
  6. Legacy Raider

    Legacy Raider
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    Thanks so much Obi. I have tried really hard to play stall for such a long time but I've always found it so difficult and frustrating. I have a naturally offensive playstyle, and when I tried Stall it brought my Shoddy account from ~30 on the leaderboard to a rating of <1500.

    Your guide is excellent and is just what I needed. From the master of stall no less. I really hope you update it for Platinum.

    LR.
  7. sora13

    sora13

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    People are mostly praising you for this, and I applaud it, but I shall give you my rate.

    Unfortunaly for you, Platinum has brought a monster to your stall team: Salamence. Hippowdon can take care of it, but MixMence Draco Meteor/Fire Blast/Outrage/Earthquake will take care of this team in a jiffy. You could put Ice Beam over HP electric seeing as you already have ways to deal with Gyarados, namely Celebi. You also have to take care of the presence of offensive Suicune, and HP Electric wont do that much even if you keep it. You also have no way of taking care of MixDra with DD/Hydro Pump/Waterfall/Outrage. Again, you can fit a dragon attack somewhere, but a lot of people are making Kingdra bulky to take Dragon Pulses. Skymin is somewhat troublesome, but can be taken care of if Tenta has Ice Beam over Hp electric. Rhyperior caan somewhat take on this team easily if it has Sp Def evs. Sandstorm makes it nearly impenetrable. Also consider Bronzong over Hippowdon. It can set up Stealth Rock, while not setting up Sandstorm and harm your team. It can carry reflect if you want it to be a physical wall. It also takes care of Mamo who can give this team some trouble. For the rotom forms, i would suggest rotom-h to take care of Metagross. CursePert could also mean trouble, which you can take care of with Rotom-c. Your choice.

    Kudos to your awesome team.
  8. eastamazonantidote

    eastamazonantidote

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    This should be Sticky'd. It must be the most comprehensive list of building a stall team ever, and gives a clear assessment of most of the metagame, both offensive and defensive. Both types of players can easily benefit from reading this.
  9. CHENN

    CHENN

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    A set similiar to the current Spiritomb set on any Rotom Form could work.

    Also agreeing with others. This could be a great sticky for beginners (such as myself), or other people wanting to learn how to make a Stall team. It would also help people to build their teams, as they could look at this as an example.

    Amazing work.
  10. Shur.tugal

    Shur.tugal

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    It is an awesome team and it should be stickyed but I do have a few questions about the team.

    I know that perish song does have its benefits but I don't see how it helps your team. I mean without mean look or block there just going to switch on the last turn anyway and your Bliss doesn't have aromatheropy so wouldn't it make more sense to have Heal Bell on Celebi to heal status, as if your team members get hit with Toxic it could prove fatal.

    And is there a reason for 8SpD EVs on Celebi because they just look random?

    Why 32Spd EVs on Celebi as well?

    Thanks for the guide Obi!
  11. Bogmire

    Bogmire

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    I'm assuming 32 speed EVs are their to outrun Jolly Tyranitar and Adamant Breloom.

    Obi, are you sure that Grass Knot breaks Breloom's subs? I use a Bold 0 SpA Celebi on one of my teams, and it always takes two hits to break a Breloom's sub with Grass Knot, then I end up having a ridiculously long stall war with it.
  12. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    I'd go for a sticky so no one asks about it.

    The only thing I'd "change" is bold the parts where you mention how out of date some of this is, haha. I notice people are giving advice on your team (DD LO Salamence tears through everything! Gyarados still beats you with max attack and a Life Orb! or my personal favorite from the last thread "Use a lefties number on Blissey!"). That or lock it.

    Explaining little abnormalities like the extra 10 points in Special Defense on Skarmory or the Hippo EVs would be nice.

    Good luck with your guide to stall! I look forward to it, if this isn't basically it.

    I know this is kinda, uh, weird to say I guess, but people should probably think long and hard about critiquing the team with simple lines like "you have an xyz weakness", especially when you not only addressed every prePlatinum threat, but you're one of the best battlers in Pokémon...
  13. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    Wrong. Blissey isn't 2HKOed by most Suicune even with +6 Special Attack, and the ones that carry enough Special Attack to do it usually pack Life Orb and or no recovery.

    Perhaps you don't understand the basic concept of why Perish Song is so good. By forcing the switch Perish Song makes Suicune take Toxic, Spikes, and SR damage, which very much adds up. Don't forget to consider more than the one-on-one matchup when talking about rampages.

    Perish Song is really the "key" weapon against normal antistall stat up strategies on this team, its importance can't really be understated.
  14. Bogmire

    Bogmire

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    it can take an SD crunch, but it won't OHKO with hp fighting. Hippowdon is probably the best switch in, as it can take a SD Close Combat (even better than before, since more lucario are running jolly now) then OHKO with EQ.
  15. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    The combination of Hippowdon and Spiritomb is the best way for Obi to handle SDLuke, but getting out Spikes is really helpful too. Lucario is also moderately hard to switch in.
  16. stvn

    stvn

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    I know you are going to update the team but yeah, this is a RMT, so why not give some sugestions ?

    Resttalk Rotom is really the best option over Spiritomb. The Washing Machine can 2HKO Tyranitar with Hydro Pump or use Reflect.
    A +2 Def Rotom takes like 15% from a non-switch Pursuit (+2 Def is the same as if you resisted the move). It also helps against Ice Punch Lucario.

    Another good option is Reflect over U-turn on Celebi if you decide not to use Reflect Rotom. That way you never lose to Ice Fang Gyarados (except Flinches) and still supports the whole team. It is amazing how many people explode their Metagross/Heatran forgeting the Reflect is up on Hippo/Bliss to do only a little more than 50%.

    Hippo also needs 252 HP/Def, from my experience. Salamence just hits too hard, and I don't see what the Atk/SpD are doing there.
  17. Bogmire

    Bogmire

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    Assuming you'll pump all your EVs into HP and defenses, wash rotom may not even 3HKO a 252 HP tyranitar with Hydro Pump. If you're against a 252/216 careful CBtar you can forget about that. Its probably best to go with Shadow Ball+Thunderbolt, if a Rotom form is used>Spiritomb.

    The special defense EVs make it so Hippowdon is never 2HKOed by boah ice beam.
  18. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    I promise I'll stop (this isn't my team haha), but I don't see why Resttalk Rotom needs to go over Spiritomb. Rotom can't run Shadow Ball / Hydro Pump / Reflect / Rest / Sleep Talk, and it's not like has problems with Tyranitar. If he runs Rotom, he has occasional problems with Lucario as well.
  19. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    Perish Song can help against Baton Pass teams after they get the Ingrain in. It also is basically Celebi's way to phaze stuff. Without Perish Song, I also lose to things like last Pokemon Curselax / CM Suicune.

    That was based on my playing on Shoddy. When I first made this post, Grass Knot was bugged to use the attacker's weight, rather than the target's weight. This meant that Grass Knot had a little extra power and thus broke Breloom's Substitute. I'll fix that.

    I'm not so sure about that. I will have Sandstorm running. Hippowdon beats Raikou heads up thanks to massive HP with decent Special Defense and STAB Earthquake. If Raikou doesn't have Substitute, it falls to Toxic Blissey, unless it has Rest. If it has Rest, either Hippowdon easily beats it or it can't boost its Special Attack and is no more of a threat than any other Resttalker. If it has Substitute, it can't heal with Leftovers thanks to Sand Stream on Hippowdon, which means Blissey can slowly wear it down. It has, at most, 3 Substitutes.

    About locking and sticking, I don't really know that I should be sticking my own team lol.
  20. stvn

    stvn

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    I was talking about Resttalk + TBolt + Reflect Rotom.
    I've already used one and It never got killed by any Pursuiter.

    edit: well, with some residual dmg Hydro Pump can kill Tar, and even then, if Rotom stays, Pursuit isn't killing you, so you can finish it or switch if you think Tar will Crunch
  21. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    CM Rachi was referring to CM Jirachi, which you may actually have problems with if Celebi is gone (especially HP Bug / Psychic versions or something)
  22. Poppin

    Poppin

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    I can say that this team would be an excellent reference to making an actual stall team. I honestly see no flaws whatsoever.

    However, when you update this team to Platinum, it might be a good idea to add a Rotom form, Rotom-W preferabally to stop Heatran and Tyranitar, over Spirtomb since Will-o-Wisp would cause Pursuit users to be a bit careful staying it. Rotom-W also makes a good user of Trick to give back Choice Scarfs Tricked to it, or, it can just shut down something that needs an item to sweep. Keep it noted that Discharge and Will-o-Wisp work nicely on stall teams such as this.
  23. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    I really don't want to say "don't question the expert", but this kind of response to a solid stall team (an uninformed resonse attempting to fix it) isn't really right in my opinion. You lack a fundamental understanding of how his team works, as evidenced by your suggestion of a sleep talk Heatran in particular (every member on the team not only "counters" but has a set up / role as well).


    Oh great I went back on my word again...

    Lol, no pure stall team can beat CM Clefable, haha. I think what's more likely to happen is 10 pages of how bad the team is with people disregarding his threat list and the non platinum oriented ness of the team by saying the most basic threats "stop it".

    Obi's stall team could be beaten by outplaying Obi, if possible.
  24. CardsOfTheHeart

    CardsOfTheHeart

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    Heh, this reminds me of the time I played Obi on the Shoddy Official Ladder with this team against a Rain Dance team of his. I lost 2-0, but at least it was an interesting set of circumstances.

    Oddly enough, this was the team I probably had the most success with...
  25. Bourbon

    Bourbon

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    Ah, this old classic again. This is a very nice team, and has inspired me to attempt my own stall team. hopefully it will not be at all similar to yours, but Tentacruel is pretty much a given :/

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