Starmie [QC 2/3] Ready For 3rd!

TheManlyLadybug

Banned deucer.
Status: Quality Control
QC Checks: 2/3 [Calloflochie] [Limitless] [---]
GP Checks: 0/2 [---] [---]

Overview
#######

Starmie is back for another round in the ring, ready to take on a variety of roles for its team. Its ability Analytic along with stellar coverage and good Special Attack make it very hard to switch into, making it an effective wallbreaker. Its amazing Speed allows it to tie with or outspeed most of the metagame. This makes Starmie a prime candidate for the role of a revenge killer. Starmie beats most spinblockers, making it a good offensive spinner and giving it an advantage over other spinners such as Forretress. Starmie also has decent bulk, Natural Cure to get rid of status, and access to reliable recovery, allowing it to act as a bulky, reliable spinner.

However, just because Starmie has a lot of great attributes doesn't mean it's perfect. Starmie is weak to U-Turn, Volt Switch, and Pursuit, meaning that it can be taken advantage of by smart opponents. Additionally, fast Electric-types are extremely common in the current metagame, as well as bulky Water-types. Starmie also has a bad case of 4MSS, as it can't run everything it would like to in one set. Nevertheless, Starmie is strong, fast, and as versatile as the oceans it comes from; underestimate at your own demise.

All-Out Attacker
###########
name: All-Out Attacker
move 1: Hydro Pump / Scald
move 2: Psyshock / Thunderbolt
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Rapid Spin / Recover
ability: Analytic / Natural Cure
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

Hydro Pump is Starmie's main STAB move and is its most spammable attack. Scald is a viable alternative for more reliability and the nifty 30% to burn targets, though it's not as powerful. Thunderbolt offers key coverage on the pesky Water-types roaming the tier. However, Psyshock is a solid choice as well, hitting Pokemon such as Machamp and said Water-types on their weaker Defense while being a reliable STAB move in general. Ice Beam is crucial for covering Grass- and Dragon-types. Rapid Spin offers necessary support for Pokemon such as Chandelure and Houndoom. However, if your team doesn't require hazard removal, Recover is great for healing up on the switch or against weak walls, and helps Starmie recover from the beatings of a match.

Set Details
==========

The Speed EVs and a Timid nature make Starmie as fast as possible in order to tie with base 115 Pokemon and outspeed Mienshao, Galvantula and Froslass. The Special Attack EVs and a Life Orb give Starmie some firepower. Alternatively, Leftovers can be used for more survivability throughout the match. Analytic provides a 30% boost to Starmie's moves when hitting opponents on the switch, helping it achieve a greater number of OHKOs and 2HKOs. Natural Cure is another decent ability, healing status on the switch and making it even harder to wear down, but Starmie generally appreciates the extra boost in power on the switch.

Usage Tips
==========

This set's main job is to remove hazards and break down opposing walls with its fantastic coverage. Don't sacrifice Starmie to get damage off on a Pokemon unless it is necessary, as Starmie's Speed really comes in handy late-game. It's a good idea to bring Starmie in with a slow Volt Switch or U-Turn from Pokemon such as Forretress, Rotom-H, and Forretress. This set is more than capable of revenge killing if necessary, as Starmie can outspeed a lot of threats. This set also appreciates hazards to net extra OHKOs and 2HKOs. Forretress and Shuckle are good examples of hazard setters.

Team Options
===========

Pokemon that are weak to Stealth Rock, such as Houndoom and Honchkrow, appreciate the support Starmie offers. Pokemon that can counter fast Electric-types make great teammates. Rotom-H, Ampharos, and Lanturn are good examples. Starmie works well on a dedicated rain team, as rain powers up Starmie's STAB attacks and allows it to reliably run the more powerful Thunder over Thunderbolt. Wallbreakers such as Hydreigon and Darmanitan break down walls for Starmie to clean up later in the match. Pokemon that can break through common counters to Starmie make great teammates. For example, Abomasnow deals with many of Starmie's counters and allows it to run the more powerful Blizzard over Ice Beam.

Choice Specs
##########
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Hydro Pump / Scald
move 2: Psyshock / Thunderbolt
move 3: Trick
move 4: Ice Beam / Rapid Spin
ability: Analytic
item: Choice Specs
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
=======

Hydro Pump provides a strong, spammable STAB move. Scald is a viable alternative for the reliability and the burn chance. Psyshock is optimal in the second slot to get past special walls. However, Thunderbolt strikes Water-types a little harder. Trick cripples walls that Starmie can't get past, and allows it to switch moves afterwards. Ice Beam provides key coverage on Grass- and Dragon-types. Rapid Spin is an option in the last slot if your team badly needs a Spinner, but the lost coverage really hurts and being locked into Rapid Spin isn't a favorable situation. Nevertheless, it still provides crucial support for many Pokemon.

Set Details
========


Analytic is mandatory for guaranteeing many OHKOs and 2HKOs on the switch. Maximum investment in Special Attack along with Choice Specs allows it to break down walls for its team. Timid nature and max Speed allows it to outspeed many relevant Pokemon and tie with common Pokemon such as Cinccino and Houndoom that reside in its Speed tier.

Usage Tips
========

Contrary to the All-Out Attacker, this set functions as more of a wallbreaker, breaking down opposing Pokemon for teammates to sweep later on. It can still act as a viable late-game cleaner, though. Do not spam Trick right away just to pass it on to a random Pokemon, and don't feel like you need to use it every match. Trick is solely for crippling defensive Pokemon that Starmie can't get past. It's a good idea to bring in Starmie on a slow Volt Switch or U-Turn from Pokemon such as Forretress and Rotom-H. This set can revenge kill Pokemon if needed, as Starmie outpaces many threatening Pokemon.

Team Options
==========

This set aims to break down walls, so Pokemon that appreciate Starmie's ability to weaken their checks make great teammates. Pivots are very much appreciated, as Starmie will be switching in and out a lot and needs Pokemon it can fall back on when forced out. Abomasnow defeats many Pokemon that generally trouble Starmie. Fighting-types such as Virizion, Cobalion, and Mienshao can defeat Dark-types for Starmie. Virizion in particular can check Electric-types and defeat Water-types for Starmie.

Bulky
#########
name: Bulky
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Scald
move 3: Psyshock / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt
move 4: Recover
ability: Natural Cure
item: Leftovers
evs: 240 HP / 40 SpA / 4 SpD / 224 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
======

Rapid Spin is the crux of this set. Scald is the preferred STAB move, as the burn chance is too good to pass up. Psyshock hits most neutral targets for solid damage. Ice Beam and Thunderbolt are more for specific types of Pokemon. Ice Beam hits Grass- and Dragon-types, while Thunderbolt targets Water-types. Recover is reliable recovery and it's great to have, especially on a more defensively orientated set such as this.

Set Details
=========

240 EVs in HP give it enough bulk to stick around for a while, minimize Stealth Rock damage, and maximize Leftovers recovery. 224 Speed EVs and a Timid nature allow Starmie to otuspeed everything up to +Spe Tornadus. The rest go in Special Attack to increase damage output with 4 in SpD to prevent SpA boosts to opposing Download Pokemon. Natural Cure is the preferred ability for this set, as it prevents status from crippling Starmie. Leftovers is the go-to item on this set, increasing survivability.

Usage Tips
=========

This set takes more of a defensive approach and aims to take advantage of Natural Cure and Recover to consistently spin away hazards throughout the match. Generally switch into moves it resists, then spin away hazards (if needed) and spread burns. Don't sacrifice Starmie unless the opponent's hazard setter has been removed and Starmie has done its job.

Team Options
===========

Abomasnow can defeat many of Starmie's counters, such as bulky Water-types, Grass-types, and Dragon-types. Steel-types can combine with Starmie to form a decent core, as Starmie handles Fire-types while Steel-types wall Grass-types Ferroseed is a good example, as it walls many offensive threats to Starmie. Pokemon such as Houndoom, Chandelure, and Galvantula appreciate the support Starmie provides, and can defeat common checks to Starmie.

Choice Scarf
#########
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Hydro Pump / Scald
move 2: Ice Beam / Dazzling Gleam
move 3: Thunderbolt
move 4: Trick
ability: Analytic
item: Choice Scarf
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
======

Hydro Pump is your main weapon for revenge killing. Ice Beam provides crucial coverage against a lot of threats such as Aerodactyl. Dazzling Gleam can be used over Ice Beam to revenge kill Hydreigon. Thunderbolt mainly hits Water-types. Trick is great for crippling Pokemon after Starmie has done its job.

Set Details
========

Choice Scarf is the crux of this set, allowing Starmie to revenge kill Pokemon such as Aerodactyl, Manectric, Crobat, and Sceptile. Analytic punishes switch-ins and helps achieve OHKOs and 2HKOs. Maximum investment in Special Attack allows it to hit as hard as possible. Max Speed and a Timid nature give Starmie the Speed needed to do its job.

Usage Tips
========

This set acts first and foremost as a revenge killer. Only use Trick after Starmie has completed its job and only on defensive Pokemon. After fulfilling its role on the team and crippling a Pokemon with Trick, Starmie can launch powerful attacks with its superb coverage or be used as death fodder.

Team Options
==========

This set doesn't need a lot of support, as Starmie is the one supporting its team. Slower Pokemon such as Chandelure and Heracross appreciate Starmie's ability to revenge kill faster threats Bulky pivots are appreciated, as Starmie will often be forced out after revenge killing a Pokemon.

Other Options
##########

A dual screens set can work, but it faces competition from Azelf, who has access to Stealth Rock and Taunt. However, Starmie has numerous traits over Azelf, such as better typing, Rapid Spin, and Recover. Grass Knot and Hidden Power Grass hit Gastrodon and heavier Water-types hard, but Thunderbolt and Psyshock are generally better choices. Thunder Wave nails faster switch-ins, allowing it to outspeed and OHKO next turn. Signal Beam 2HKOes Celebi on the switch, but has little merit outside of that. Blizzard can be used over Ice Beam if paired with Abomasnow for the extra power. Rain Dance or Hail can be used to set up favorable weather for the team, but giving up a coverage move often isn't worth it. A set centered around Gravity is actually a decent option, as Starmie has a great movepool that can take advantage of the accuracy boost. Expert Belt is a decent choice on the All-Out Attacker, as it maintains solid damage on super effective moves and doesn't have recoil.

Checks and Counters
##############

**Bulky Grass-types**: Specially defensive Grass-types such as Celebi, Shaymin, and Amoonguss can switch into Starmie and heal the damage or threaten it with a STAB Giga Drain, but it should be noted that these Pokemon must switch into a resisted attack. Amoonguss walls most variants, but loses to Psyshock.

**Bulky Water-types**: Specially defensive Water-types such as Milotic, Gastrodon, Jellicent, Lanturn, and Slowking can easily switch into most of Starmie's attacks, though it should be noted that most of these Pokemon have to switch into the right attack. Lanturn deserves a special mention, as it resists every one of Starmie's common attacks besides Psyshock and does big damage with Volt Switch.

**Kyurem**: Kyurem can switch into most of Starmie's attacks and threaten back with a STAB move.

**Special Walls**: Dedicated special walls such as Florges and Umbreon can freely switch into any of Starmie's attacks and react accordingly.

**Faster Pokemon**: Pokemon that can outspeed and OHKO Starmie through higher Speed or priority make great checks. Examples include Jolteon, Scarf Heliolisk, Scarf Hydreigon, Scarf Krookodile, Sceptile, Manectric, Mega Absol, Toxicroak, and Scarf Chandelure, but it should be noted that most of these Pokemon can't directly switch into Starmie.
**Bulky Spinblockers**: Bulky spinblockers such as Trevenant, Jellicent, and Sableye can block the defensive set, but lose to offensive variants.

**Water Immunities**: Pokemon immune to Water-type moves can switch into Starmie's main STAB move and threaten it from there. Cacturne, Jellicent, Gastrodon, Heliolisk, and Toxicroak are good examples.
 
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Politoed is BL.

I'd also slash Psyshock along with Ice Beam as it lets it hit Florges.

Obviously Starmie has more options then psychic lol it has a massive movepool @_@
 

TheManlyLadybug

Banned deucer.
Politoed is BL.

I'd also slash Psyshock along with Ice Beam as it lets it hit Florges.

Obviously Starmie has more options then psychic lol it has a massive movepool @_@
I know Starmie has many more options, remember this is a Work In Progress, I will keep adding to the analysis.

Anyway, I will add your changes, thanks
 
Analytic is great for the power boost as Starmie is most likely to force switches. In fact I would go as far as saying it should be the only ability for All-out Attacker considering its Life Orb and Analytic boosted Hydro Pump is as powerful as Specs Keldeo's (Yes I know it's OU, I'm just giving a testament to how strong it is).
 

TheManlyLadybug

Banned deucer.
Analytic is great for the power boost as Starmie is most likely to force switches. In fact I would go as far as saying it should be the only ability for All-out Attacker
I didn't know Analytic powered up moves on the switch. Okay, I'll revamp the analysis

Edit: Wow, that's pretty damn strong. The same power as Specs Keldeo...
 
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Gravity deserves a mention in OO as Starmie has the movepool to take advantage of the accuracy boost Gravity provides.
I have not actually tried it, but a choice scarf set seems plausible. If only it did not get wreaked by pursuit. :[
Mention Expert Belt on the life orb set.
 

Alter

lab report ᐛ
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I think you could probably slash Scarf over Specs in Choice Specs, and maybe rename it to Trick?
I wouldn't agree with this because Scarf and Specs Starmie overall play very differently and mashing them into the same set wouldn't be the best option. For instance, where Choice Specs Starmie has the power, Scarf Starmie doesn't. The latter uses its enhanced Speed to get clutch spins/revenge kills or really mess up defensive Pokemon w/ Trick. The same does not entirely apply for Specs Starmie. In the past, we've put 'Choice' as a set altogether and slashed Specs / Scarf, but I think a precedent was set in OU C&C when we chose to separate sets in which two different Choice items were slashed next to each other.

note that i'm not really advocating for either set here, just putting out what should happen in the hypothetical that both are deemed viable enough.
 
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TheManlyLadybug

Banned deucer.
Thanks for all your help guys, this is basically ready for QC checks!

Although the Usage Tips and Team Options definitely need to be beefed up a little more...
 

Alter

lab report ᐛ
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
For the Choice Specs set, you should outline when using Trick is wanted (examples of include on a defensive Pokemon (and explain why) or a Pokemon which is otherwise reliant on status moves). It should only be used if necessary and not spammed every game.
- Mostly acts as a late-game cleaner, but is more than capable of wallbreaking.
These two points seem to contradict each other slightly. I wouldn't necessarily call Starmie a 'wallbreaker', as that isn't really its main role and better wall breakers exist. Maybe mention something about using an appropriate coverage move if a spinblocker switch-in is expected?
**Faster Pokemon**: Pokemon that can outspeed and OHKO Starmie, such as Scarf Chandelure and Weavile, make great counters, although these Pokemon can't directly switch into Starmie.
Careful with your use of the word 'counters' here. These Pokemon do not counter Starmie as they cannot switch into any attack and proceed to beat it in a one-on-one situation. Maybe you could rename this section to 'revenge killers' or something and outline offensive checks which outspeed and KO Starmie.

For the team options section, you should definitely outline Pokemon (and give examples of) that appreciate having rapid spin support due to their Stealth Rock weaknesses. For instance, Chandelure appreciates the rapid spin support given by Starmie and can deal with the bulky Grass-types that annoy it as well. I'm sure you can think of other examples, but just off the top of my head, Mega Aerodactyl, Galvantula, Entei, etc. all like having rocks off the field.
 
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TheManlyLadybug

Banned deucer.
For the Choice Specs set, you should outline when using Trick is wanted (examples of include on a defensive Pokemon (and explain why) or a Pokemon which is otherwise reliant on status moves). It should only be used if necessary and not spammed every game.

These two points seem to contradict each other slightly. I wouldn't necessarily call Starmie a 'wallbreaker', as that isn't really its main role and better wall breakers exist. Maybe mention something about using an appropriate coverage move if a spinblocker switch-in is expected?

Careful with your user of the word 'counters' here. These Pokemon do not counter Starmie as they cannot switch into any attack and proceed to beat it in a one-on-one situation. Maybe you could rename this section to 'revenge killers' or something and outline offensive checks which outspeed and KO Starmie.

For the team options section, you should definitely outline Pokemon (and give examples of) that appreciate having rapid spin support due to their Stealth Rock weaknesses. For instance, Chandelure appreciates the rapid spin support given by Starmie and can deal with the bulky Grass-types that annoy it as well. I'm sure you can think of other examples, but just off the top of my head, Mega Aerodactyl, Galvantula, Entei, etc. all like having rocks off the field.
Thanks for the advice, I have implemented your chances in the analysis
 
In overview just make sure to mention Starmie is very dangerous to switch in to due to that coverage + ability which is a reason why it can be a very effective wallbreaker. Also mention that it's very good at breaking through spinblockers due to coverage + ability which is a key reason to use it for that support over something like Forretress.

All Out Attacker

-Take out the 0 Atk IVs, this is automatically assumed for all special attackers so doesn't need to be mentioned.
-If Hydro isn't being run, always slash Scald, the power difference is hardly noticeable but that 100% 30% Burn Chance is huge.
-Also mention the big reason to use Ice Beam on Starmie is to beat one of the best spinblockers in Trevenant so if Spin support is badly needed then Ice Beam should definitely be run.
-Take out the mention of Starmie cleaning late game, it's job is to provide Rapid Spin support and wallbreak due to it's fantastic coverage and awesome ability

Choice Specs
-
Slash Rapid Spin with Ice Beam, the reason you use Starmie is due to it's Rapid Spin support so IMO it needs to be on all sets, although being choice locked does suck, due to trick you have the potential to 1. Cripple a Wall and 2. Still be an effective Rapid Spinner.
-Again Remove 0 Atk IVs.
-Slash Scald with Hydro Pump since Specs Scald is very effective to run (see Keldeo) as counters still run the risk of being burned.
-Mention the reason Max Speed and Timid is important is due to it being in a very vital speed tier, 115. A lot of pokes inhabit this tier so Starmie needs to be able to at worst speed tie with them.

Bulky Starmie
-224 Speed only hits enough for base 110's which might have been relevant in Ou last gen for Lati@s and the likes but Starmie should either be running a spread that still allows it to outspeed base 100's (victini, shaymin etc) or base 105's (non scarf mienshao) or be running just plain Max Hp, Max Speed due to Starmie's important speed tier.
- Other than that, remove Atk Ivs and bulky spin looks pretty solid

Checks and Counters
-In checks and counters, only Scarf Heliolisk can outspeed Starmie and if it isn't Scarf, will get maimed by Psyshock so make it absolutely clear that it has to be Scarf.
-Amoonguss gets maimed by Psyshock on switch in if Specially Defensive so mention that specially defensive checks ice beam variants, physically defensive checks Psyshock variants but also mention switching in is dangerous due to Analytic boosting Starmie's power
-Remove Latias seeing as it's OU
-Dark types need to be added such as Sableye and Mega Absol, Sableye cause stops Starmie doing it's job and Mega Absol cause turn 1 it can sucker on mega evolve and turn 2 it can potentially win a speed tie and KO with Knock Off
-Water Absorb mons should also be added to the Checks and Counters, Cacturne can beat variants of Starmie lacking Ice beam and Toxicroak can deal with Starmie's lacking Psychic STAB
-Remove mention of Wobbuffett and Gothitelle seeing as they're both banned but for trapping just mention Pursuit trapping being able to destroy Starmie

Once these changes have been made, reply to that post you made on my wall and i'll come back to give this QC 1/3, Good job!
 
There are 3 mentions of Weavile in Checks and Counters (under 'Faster Pursuit users', 'Faster Pokemon', and 'Dark types'). Weavile is BL so remove them.
 
-Any references to 0 Atk IVs need to be removed from set details.
-As r.walton pointed out, remove mentions of Weavile since it's BL.
-Speed EVs in actual spread for bulk spinner still need to be changed
- Slash Scald with Hydro, If you factor in the accuracy of Hydro pump it's damage output is only marginally better than Scald 0.8 x 110= 88 / 1.0 x 80= 80 + 30% burn chance
-I'm not sure about adding a Choice Scarf set since I don't have any experience with it, but i'll let Limitless do the second QC if he thinks it should get a write up.

Add all of these in and you have QC 1/3, nice work!
 

TheManlyLadybug

Banned deucer.
Quick update: I completely removed Dark-types and Pursuit users from Checks & Counters. They may appear to trap and KO Starmie, but in reality they are slower than Starmie and most of them are swiftly OHKOed by Hydro Pump.
 
Quick update: I completely removed Dark-types and Pursuit users from Checks & Counters. They may appear to trap and KO Starmie, but in reality they are slower than Starmie and most of them are swiftly OHKOed by Hydro Pump.
I'd still add it, mainly because a lot of Pursuit users can run Choice Scarf, such as Krookodile and Honchkrow. This forces Starmie to play mindgames; will he go for the Pursuit expecting me to switch out? Or will he Knock Off / Night Slash expecting me to attack?
 

TheManlyLadybug

Banned deucer.
I'd still add it, mainly because a lot of Pursuit users can run Choice Scarf, such as Krookodile and Honchkrow. This forces Starmie to play mindgames; will he go for the Pursuit expecting me to switch out? Or will he Knock Off / Night Slash expecting me to attack?
Ok, I will change it to **Scarf Pursuit Users**
 

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