Also worth noting is that all of those Pokémon listed above except Sawsbuck already have other 4x weaknesses.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Data State of the Game (07/04/14)
- Thread starter Texas Cloverleaf
- Start date
- Status
Breaking news from "We discussed it on IRC": Stone Edge's description should probably have its flavour changed.
So the question came up of "Combo: Stone Edge + Flail. Y/N?" And the answer given was "N" on the basis that Flail is a contact move and Stone Edge isn't. However, Stone Edge's description of the user thrusting a pointed stone or stony appendage at the opponent suggests that Stone Edge could combine with some contact moves. It also, however, suggests that it wouldn't combine with non-contact moves such as Rock Slide and Rock Throw, even though the latter has codified combo tech that would make Rock Throw + Stone Edge legit. So I investigated how Stone Edge appears in the cartridges and in the anime and the games seem to favour summoning stones from below to strike the opponent while the anime depictions show sharp stones surrounding the user and then being launched at the opponent. So where did the idea of thrusting a stone or stony appendage come from?
Anyway, I intend to change Stone Edge's description to "The user summons multiple sharp stones around itself and then launches them at the target. The rigid edges provide a good possibility of inflicting a critical hit." You all have 24 hours from the moment this post goes up to voice any objections you may have to this. If there are none, I shall implement this as a hotfix.
(Incidentally, this would make Stone Edge + Flail a more definite N.)
So the question came up of "Combo: Stone Edge + Flail. Y/N?" And the answer given was "N" on the basis that Flail is a contact move and Stone Edge isn't. However, Stone Edge's description of the user thrusting a pointed stone or stony appendage at the opponent suggests that Stone Edge could combine with some contact moves. It also, however, suggests that it wouldn't combine with non-contact moves such as Rock Slide and Rock Throw, even though the latter has codified combo tech that would make Rock Throw + Stone Edge legit. So I investigated how Stone Edge appears in the cartridges and in the anime and the games seem to favour summoning stones from below to strike the opponent while the anime depictions show sharp stones surrounding the user and then being launched at the opponent. So where did the idea of thrusting a stone or stony appendage come from?
Anyway, I intend to change Stone Edge's description to "The user summons multiple sharp stones around itself and then launches them at the target. The rigid edges provide a good possibility of inflicting a critical hit." You all have 24 hours from the moment this post goes up to voice any objections you may have to this. If there are none, I shall implement this as a hotfix.
(Incidentally, this would make Stone Edge + Flail a more definite N.)
The "thrusting" part comes from the in-game description here that states the "user stabs the foe with a sharpened stone." That being said, when move lists were compiled, the compilers were to use the anime descriptions near the bottom of the page, which agree with Objection's proposed change, rather than the in-game description. FULL AGREE
I originally liked Simon's proposal here. But then I found out some "potential ramifications":
- Unown can use almost all dual-type combos as long as it combos 2 non-Psychic Hidden Powers, for less than 15 EN cost.
(On a slightly unrelated note, Unown's combo description in the Handbook needs update as per Gen 6 Hidden Power mechanics. )
- Dig + Dive combo (Water/Ground type) against a Magma Armour Magcargo, assuming Magcargo's Defense is the same rank as the attacker's Attack, deals [(8+8)-1]*5.0625 = 75.938 damage. Costs 30 EN.
Last edited:
Combinations are already capable of doing inane amounts of damage and, particularly in multiples, are one of the best 'surprise moves' when ordering second. Can we please not make them any more punishing to order against? The game is offensive enough as it is...
We are going to nerf Combinations so that we can introduce Signature Moves which do the exact same thing as the combinations did in every single way! ... Wait a second...
On topic, Unown is allowed more leeway because it is Unown. It has a grand total of 18 moves. 17 of which are Hidden Power and have a maximum BAP of 7.
On review, dual-typed combinations are far too powerful. Even if it was limited to just dual-typed Pokemon who get STAB on both moves, that's shafting every single single-typed Pokemon, and while it's difficult to find a Pokemon with STAB on 2 combo-able same BAP same CT moves where it would be favourable to use that specific combination over another, the idea of adding an incredibly cheap OHKO into ASB is enough to vouch for a hell naw.
Example: Adamant Talonflame's Flame Blitz + Brave Bird combination vs. Neutral natured Leavanny
((10+2)*2+3+(4+3)*1.5)*5.0625 = 144.28125 Dmg!
Energy cost is only 24 En.
Example: Adamant Talonflame's Flame Blitz + Brave Bird combination vs. Neutral natured Leavanny
((10+2)*2+3+(4+3)*1.5)*5.0625 = 144.28125 Dmg!
Energy cost is only 24 En.
I dont see the point of dual-typed combinations, at all. It just allows for ridiculously damaging combinations at an extremely low EN cost and just feels pointless. Combos are perfectly fine atm, and they fill their niche extremely well. Why do we need to give such a huge boost to make the game even more offense-based? Being able to deal at least *2,25 damage at ridiculously low EN costs against mons that dont even have a quadruple weakness is not something we need, at all.
Of course, Flying Press combo is the exception, but it feels like something that must be left alone as a niche for Hawlucha rather than becoming the new standard.
Of course, Flying Press combo is the exception, but it feels like something that must be left alone as a niche for Hawlucha rather than becoming the new standard.
Why don't we just let the user pick the type in the case that the combo would be typeless? (e.g., Fire Punch + Thunder Punch combo could be either Fire- or Electric-typed.) That seems much simpler and less broken than dual-typing and makes a lot more sense than forcing the combo to lose all type properties because it had too many type properties.
We used to actually do this if the Pokemon got STAB on both moves. I think the problem ended up being that, much like when we had the different degrees of burn, people wouldn't specify which option they wanted and so it was up to the ref to do something about it.
We could simply make the trainer have to specify a type (if it is equal base power same CT moves that the pokemon has STAB on both or neither), or else the combo fails. It would be a bit harsh, but the ref won't have to do anything about those scenarios and the player can easily avoid it.
Maybe be determined by the order the moves are combo'd?
Fire Punch + Tunder Punch -> Fire-type
Thunder Punch + Fire Punch -> Electric-type
Fire Punch + Tunder Punch -> Fire-type
Thunder Punch + Fire Punch -> Electric-type
Since this is the best place to post this and I foolishly used my available NDA comment to point out one space where adding (Move) would be helpful (Just put it on every move), I'll bring it up here.
Also it should be noted that Counter and Mirror Coat as written in the NDA deal damage based only on the last physical/special move to hit them. I'm not sure if this is intentional or not, but I'm pointing it out regardless.
Lastly, can we get official feedback/a policy discussion thread about Self Reffing and Community Reffing. Or (my personal favorite) a statement saying that those discussions will be delayed until the council elections are over.
Both of these moves need an addition to them similar to Metal Burst's If the user hasn't been directly damaged this action, Metal Burst fails.
Also it should be noted that Counter and Mirror Coat as written in the NDA deal damage based only on the last physical/special move to hit them. I'm not sure if this is intentional or not, but I'm pointing it out regardless.
Lastly, can we get official feedback/a policy discussion thread about Self Reffing and Community Reffing. Or (my personal favorite) a statement saying that those discussions will be delayed until the council elections are over.
Every mod (except MK because he's lazy) has objected to community reffing so that's not happening. The current status of self-reffing can be seen in Birkal's most recent post.
This was already confirmed, I'm just asking that it becomes NDA official since an inexperienced ref could easily make a literal interpretation. If I were asking for a ruling I would have posted in the Simple Questions Simple Answers thread.
Last edited:
Breezi, Fidgit, Rebble, Bolderdash, Stratagem, Privatyke, Arghonaut, Nohface, Kitsunoh, Colosshale, Colossoil, Protowatt, Krilowatt, Voodoll, Voodoom, Scratchet, Necturine, Necturna, Mollux, Cupra, Argalis, Aurumoth, Brattler and Malaconda do not have Gen VI TM 88 Sleep Talk listed in their learnsets on the NDA.
Now, I was under the impression that Sleep Talk this Gen was something like Return or Protect and that every mon that could learn through TMs could learn Sleep Talk. That certainly seems to be the case looking at this part of Veekun's entry of Sleep Talk: http://veekun.com/dex/moves/sleep talk#pokemon:machine
Also noticeable is that while Tomohawk can learn Sleep talk via VI TM 88, it's pre-evolution Scratchet cannot.
I first noticed this while building the profile of my Bolderdash a while ago.
Now, I was under the impression that Sleep Talk this Gen was something like Return or Protect and that every mon that could learn through TMs could learn Sleep Talk. That certainly seems to be the case looking at this part of Veekun's entry of Sleep Talk: http://veekun.com/dex/moves/sleep talk#pokemon:machine
Also noticeable is that while Tomohawk can learn Sleep talk via VI TM 88, it's pre-evolution Scratchet cannot.
I first noticed this while building the profile of my Bolderdash a while ago.
Thanks for the heads up. Until this gets fixed in the NDA (It is a known error ¬¬), it's acceptable to assume that if a Pokemon learns a move through any method, and that move has an equivalent XYTM move, then it also learns this move by TM. Sleep Talk is the major culprit here, coming from Gen V tutor moves and Gen IV TMs without having been transitioned into Gen VI TMs as it should be.
I don't know how widespread it is, but at least Volt Absorb has a reference to self-targeting attacks on the NDA.
- Status