Stealth Rock Discussion

[cornYBird]

As the fourth gen comes to a close and we look back at things that shaped the 4th gen metagame, nothing sticks out more than Stealth Rock.

Stealth Rock

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Stealth Rock is placed on the opponent's field and damages any Pokémon when they switch in. The base damage is 12.5%, and is affected by the target's susceptibility to Rock; Pokémon that are 4x weak to Rock will receive 50% max HP damage; 2x weak to Rock will result in 25%; a 2x resist will take 6.25%, and any Pokémon with a 4x resistance to Rock will only receive 3.125% max HP damage. This lasts until the opponent uses Rapid Spin.

Pokemon that learn stealth rock by level up:

Hide

geodude
graveler
golem
onix
steelix
roggenrola
boldore
gigalith
dweble
crustle

pokemon that learn stealth rock by breeding:

Hide

onix
sudowoodo
pineco
forretress
steelix
swinub
piloswine
skarmory
larvitar
pupitar
tyranitar
nosepass
aron
lairon
aggron
lileep
cradily
shieldon
bastiodon
bonsly
mamoswine
probopass
ferroseed
ferrothorn
bisharp

The primary stealth rock users return this gen, only by breeding this time, which doesn't really matter for simulator use.

Stealth Rock was found on nearly every 4th gen team, and with prospective entry hazard layers like ferrothorn getting stealth rock, it doesn't look like its going away anytime soon in the 5th gen. The power of stealth rock is its ability to counter the most basic and fundamental move in pokemon, switching.

Want examples to how powerful stealth rock is?
Look at any stratagy for an offensive pokemon in the Strat Dex, try and find one that doesn't list stealth rock as an asset.

My solution: ban stealth rock.
Now before all the haters start saying "LOLZ STEALTH ROXS NOT BROKENZ"

Lets look at the reasons why moves have been banned in the past.

1. Creating a more luck-based, less skill driven metagame (eg. double team/OHKO moves)
Well stealth rock really doesn't affect luck at all so it doesn't get banned here.
2. Over-Centralizing and Uncompetative (eg. sleep clause, Drizzle+Swift Swim)
Bingo!
Stealth rock is most certainly over centralizing, and arguably anti-competative. Horrible 20bp moves like rapid-spin wouldn't see the light of day if it weren't for stealth rock, and yet most teams carry a pokemon that nows it. The lead position in general has been changed by stealth rock; leads are now measured by "whether they can lay down rocks and prevent the opponent from doing so". There are hundreds of other examples. In fact, it is hard to find one aspect of competitive pokemon that isnt affected by stealth rock; I call that over-centralizing. Just think what the metagame would be like without stealth rock. Pokemon with the dreaded 4x weakness would quickly rise in usage again, and calcs would have to be redone.




What do you think?
Am I crazy? Should Stealth Rock be banned?

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Stealth Rock was probably even MORE centralising in G4. ._. It was the one that made stuff like Charizard, Articuno and Regice completely pointless. The only new mon that is really fucked up by this is Volcarona, and there has been people who swept with it switching into SR.

 

[Time Wizard]

It wasn't banned in 4th gen. Seeing as how its completely the same, I doubt it would be banned now.

 

[Agent123]

This topic has been done tons of times before, and it's almost always ended with the majority in favor of not banning Stealth Rock.

BTW, Overcentralizing does not equal broken.

 

[Foohba]

No. Here in the Fifth Generation, Stealth Rock has been limited to entirely Fourth Generation Pokemon or through breeding from the 4th Gen to 5th Gen pokes.
SR develops a strategy to either counter (prevent from setting up) or eliminate (rapid spin). Or you could design a team to ignore its effects.
Either way, SR has been a part of the metagame for several months and using a pokemon that's weak to it has been a risk that could be eliminated with a spinner.

 

[Rocket Boss Giovanni]

To be honest, with the way the metagame works right now, I've actually seen Stealth Rock used less than in Gen IV, simply due to team limitations. Also, Stealth Rock may be over-centralizing, yes, but it kinda works two ways. Even without Stealth Rock, Pokemon like Charizard and Articuno probably wouldn't see much use in OU simply because there are so many things that do their job better.

 

[Requiem[9]]

I'd say 80% of the teams on the ladder at the moment don't even have pokemon who can spin, let alone Rapid Spin. Rapid Spin saw use in gen 3, when Stealth Rock didn't even exist. I don't even see how it's overcentralizing at all, in sense that the term is usually used; I can't think of a move that's been banned under that criterion either. Overcentralizing means you're forced to use a certain pokemon or certain set of pokemon or lose. Considering how many pokemon learn Stealth Rock and how many pokemon are neutral or resistant to it, it doesn't limit diversity in that respect at all. This isn't a new idea, and I've never understood it...

 

[KokoaKiwi]

I think this is the most overcentralized thing in the game, and I consider hypocrites all those who are mad about rain and shit but use SR.
Still, I learned to deal with it since for some odd reason people don't want it banned. I'm NOT gonna dump a slot for a move such as rapid spin, either. So yeah, deal with it.

 

[Its_A_Random]

There is a Four Month-Old thread on this...Just saying.

 

[Katakiri]

With the downfall of the suicide lead and the ease of setting up Spikes via Ferrothorn, Stealth Rock, while still as good as ever, is seeing a lot less use than it was in 4th Gen.

There's not even a just cause to so much as mention banning it.

 

[voodoo pimp]

Honestly, I've seen Spikes way more often than SR, and I haven't seen anyone complain about hazards in months. If it was a problem last gen, it certainly isn't now.

 

[LeviLamprey]

No, they've become a bit less popular and more teams are dropping Spin, but regardless, battles ahve been waged for 4 years now with them and have been won/lost with one side, both sides or no sides using them in either direction. It isn't broken ATM, just an incredibly annoying and ubiquitous tool that stops Volcarona being the mother of all evil.

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

It's not uncompetitive, it is arguably over-centralizing. Also, hey, let's get rid of an entire playstyle whilst we're at it, huh? Yes, my stall team will function brilliantly without SR.

 

[khz]

Stealth rock is most certainly over centralizing, and arguably anti-competative. Horrible 20bp moves like rapid-spin wouldn't see the light of day if it weren't for stealth rock, and yet most teams carry a pokemon that nows it.

Rapid Spin is popular because it fulfills that niche of removing hazards (SR in this case). By that logic alone it is not a terible move, and extending that logic means that all moves/Pokemon/abilities/items are terrible because if you ban the reason they are used, by definition they won't be good moves.

 

[inept]

its a nuisance that can be handled with on simulation due to unlimited move potential on all pokes (rapid spin on anyone that can learn, etc)

but it is basically unheard of in the actual game, since it seems the new rated matches (and even normal matches) online are only going to be 3 poke battles so they are a nonfactor.

 

[Gairyuki789]

I'm glad Stealth Rock has been somewhat restricted(basically very few guys can get it even with breeding in the 5th gen most of which are rock and steel types, which means that people must use outdated leads that use it to well...use it.)

not to mention that I can not remember how many times people wouldn't even bother to RMT just because I didn't have Stealth Rock on it most of the time, t was like it absolutely had to be there or "your team sucks." was the response i got.

 

[min min]

If not for Stealth Rock we'd have Volcarona every corner, burning the asses of former checks like BandNite, Quick Attack CBScizor and ESpeed Lucario who formerly could KO it at half health.

 

[PK Gaming]

tealth Rock was probably even MORE centralising in G4. ._. It was the one that made stuff like Charizard, Articuno and Regice completely pointless. The only new mon that is really fucked up by this is Volcarona, and there has been people who swept with it switching into SR.

Those pokemon were worthless anyway. The only competitively viable pokemon that was affected in gen IV was Yanmega (it would dominate without a SR weakness) the rest of those pokemon wouldn't impressive in standard even with a neutrality to Stealth Rock.

 

[masterful]

As the fourth gen comes to a close and we look back at things that shaped the 4th gen metagame, nothing sticks out more than Stealth Rock.

Stealth Rock

Hide

Stealth Rock is placed on the opponent's field and damages any Pokémon when they switch in. The base damage is 12.5%, and is affected by the target's susceptibility to Rock; Pokémon that are 4x weak to Rock will receive 50% max HP damage; 2x weak to Rock will result in 25%; a 2x resist will take 6.25%, and any Pokémon with a 4x resistance to Rock will only receive 3.125% max HP damage. This lasts until the opponent uses Rapid Spin.

Pokemon that learn stealth rock by level up:

Hide

geodude
graveler
golem
onix
steelix
roggenrola
boldore
gigalith
dweble
crustle

pokemon that learn stealth rock by breeding:

Hide

onix
sudowoodo
pineco
forretress
steelix
swinub
piloswine
skarmory
larvitar
pupitar
tyranitar
nosepass
aron
lairon
aggron
lileep
cradily
shieldon
bastiodon
bonsly
mamoswine
probopass
ferroseed
ferrothorn
bisharp

The primary stealth rock users return this gen, only by breeding this time, which doesn't really matter for simulator use.

Stealth Rock was found on nearly every 4th gen team, and with prospective entry hazard layers like ferrothorn getting stealth rock, it doesn't look like its going away anytime soon in the 5th gen. The power of stealth rock is its ability to counter the most basic and fundamental move in pokemon, switching.

Want examples to how powerful stealth rock is?
Look at any stratagy for an offensive pokemon in the Strat Dex, try and find one that doesn't list stealth rock as an asset.

My solution: ban stealth rock.
Now before all the haters start saying "LOLZ STEALTH ROXS NOT BROKENZ"

Lets look at the reasons why moves have been banned in the past.

1. Creating a more luck-based, less skill driven metagame (eg. double team/OHKO moves)
Well stealth rock really doesn't affect luck at all so it doesn't get banned here.
2. Over-Centralizing and Uncompetative (eg. sleep clause, Drizzle+Swift Swim)
Bingo!
Stealth rock is most certainly over centralizing, and arguably anti-competative. Horrible 20bp moves like rapid-spin wouldn't see the light of day if it weren't for stealth rock, and yet most teams carry a pokemon that nows it. The lead position in general has been changed by stealth rock; leads are now measured by "whether they can lay down rocks and prevent the opponent from doing so". There are hundreds of other examples. In fact, it is hard to find one aspect of competitive pokemon that isnt affected by stealth rock; I call that over-centralizing. Just think what the metagame would be like without stealth rock. Pokemon with the dreaded 4x weakness would quickly rise in usage again, and calcs would have to be redone.




What do you think?
Am I crazy? Should Stealth Rock be banned?

You fail to understand that every ban has, in fact, been to remove a broken aspect of the game. If you really want I can explain exactly why OHKO and Evasion moves are broken, and those bans were not made to remove luck-based elements from the game. Overcentralizing does not merit a ban, and I really don't find SR overcentralizing. It simply forces one to use a rapid spinner or fast Taunter on their team if they plan to use something like Volcarona or Spammer Trnadus. That's not uncompetitive, either It is pretty easy to keep SR off the field for the majority of the game if your team has a particular problem with it. All it does is add another factor of risk in with teambuilding. There is no chance SR will ever be banned. It is simply neither game-breaking or overpowered.

 

[Dodorov]

Rapid Spin is popular because it fulfills that niche of removing hazards (SR in this case). By that logic alone it is not a terible move, and extending that logic means that all moves/Pokemon/abilities/items are terrible because if you ban the reason they are used, by definition they won't be good moves.

Well no one would use Rapid Spin if there were no hazards. Just to get rid of Leech Seed (and the almost never seen stuff like wrap) does not make it very attractive. By the way haze and clear smog also had their niche of 'countering' inconsistent somewhat. I know one argument against that ability was that you are forced to run sets that are not viable otherwise. Rapid spin isnt viable without hazards as well.
I dont think the ban of SR would give pokes like articuno a chance in higher tiers because it still has weaknesses to popular offensive typings. I usually stick to the lower tiers but even there you need Rocks a lot. Articuno is incredibly hard to take down without rocks in an NU battle. And I seriously dont want to let my opponent switch his levitate/flying pokes in for free over and over again. If someone sends in his specs hydreigon and fires off Draco meteors I really like that 12,5% damage so he cant hit and run for free.
As some people here already said SR is not used as often as in gen4 thanks to ferrothorn and standard teams should be able to deal with those pokes/harzards. Either bring spin support or build your team so it does not care much about SR.

 

[voodoo pimp]

By the way haze and clear smog also had their niche of 'countering' inconsistent somewhat.

False analogy. Unlike Inconsistent, you don't automatically lose if you don't have a SR counter (unless you have a mono-Bug/Flying team or something, I guess).

 

[Camara]

Psych Up counters inconsistent and is learned by zilions of pokes, and inconsistent is only available to 2 water pokes that weren't dangerous without it (and evil Smeargle). Rapid Spin is more rare.

Evasion clauses are only here because people have double standards, Psych Up and 100% accurate moves as well as Haze, Lock On, Unaware, etc deal with it. A DD is equally destructive. The point is: don't let it setup, be it DD or DT.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Those pokemon were worthless anyway. The only competitively viable pokemon that was affected in gen IV was Yanmega (it would dominate without a SR weakness) the rest of those pokemon wouldn't impressive in standard even with a neutrality to Stealth Rock.

I would have to say that Regice might have had more use, while it might have stiff competition with Blissey, it has its merits. At the least it could of been a bigger UU player, and not suck in the depths of NU.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Oh boy here we go again.

The lead position in general has been changed by stealth rock; leads are now measured by "whether they can lay down rocks and prevent the opponent from doing so".

I think you wanted to post this in Stark Mountain.

 

[alphatron]

Stealth rock is a necessary evil.

All good teams must carry it. It keeps threats such as lati@s, dragonite, gyarados, tornadus, and thunderos in check. Stall teams need it for extra residual damage. Offensive teams require stealth rock to net more kos than normal. It is not an opinion, but a FACT, that all teams that aren't using stealth rock merely handicap themselves. Stealth rock can never be detrimental to your team and is always a good thing.

Now here is another fact. Pokemon with an SR weakness will not be used often unless the pokemon is amazing enough to ignore it. Salamence in fifth gen is no longer considered good enough to use due to SR weakness. Zapdos is nowhere to be found. Tornelos and Thunderos are used...and if you look at the suspect nominations thread you'll probably see why they are. Ninetales is used because the playstyle requires its presence.

Yanmega isn't used because its detrimental to the team. Why use a pokemon that's weak to SR, when it isn't amazing enough to work around the weakness? Rotom-H? A good pokemon in his own right, weak to only water and rock. But why use him when he isn't amazing enough to work around his SR weakness? Victini? Same thing. The pokemon that I mentioned might actually see more play if SR did not exist. The same cannot be said of Articuno and Charizard.

SR holding back only Moltres and Yanmega is nothing more than fiction. People just don't pay attention to the rest. Imagine if instead of stealth rock, we had Stealth Grass. Would Swampert see ANY play in fourth gen OU? Would Donphan see the light of day when it came to spinning away hazards? Instead of Ninetales being the crappy weather starter, people would bash politoed instead.

In conclusion: Stealth rock is needed in order for the current metagame to exist. Remove it and things fall apart. Nobody wants to go through that in order to use the likes of Yanmega and Lapras in OU.