Many of the main users, yes, but almost none of the GOOD users. Skarmory, Scizor, Empoleon, Lati@s, Mew, Gliscor, Flygon, heck even Crobat and Zapdos don't care because of Roost.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Move Stealth Rock
- Thread starter Ryker
- Start date
- Status
Yeah, thats true... the only reason i have to not completely hate it is that i don't use fire or flying types too often
I have the feeling people won't let there precious Scizor or Gliscor get used like that, and most of those are in the 5th gen UU tier of which I notice many people here never touch in OU even when they are good and do fine (like most pokemon in all the lower tiers)
Of the 10 of them, 5 are UU, since when is half "most"? Also, all 5 of the ones not in OU are OU viable and have an OU tab on gen 5 smogon. All of the pokemon also got a buff with Defog, and several of them got other buffs this gen like defensive/offensive typing against fairies, crobat's infiltrator, new legal egg moves, etc.
Also, Scizor is one of the more talked about Defog users in that thread. Gliscor has also been mentioned quite a bit iirc.
Also keep in mind that the Tiers are based on mostly average usage, not on stats and power. A pokemon that is NU is there because no one uses it, and ergo it probably isn't very good.
Defog is going to get extremely limited use. Why? Because 98.7% of players use Stealth Rock on their team, and no one wants THEIR precious Stealth Rock removed from the field.
1 Pokemon like Volcorana getting a buff without Stealth Rock is such a cop out reason to keep Stealth Rock in the Metagame.
---
Even with the addition of Defog, we're still talking about a very small number of Pokemon who can remove Stealth Rock compared to those who can put Stealth Rock on the field.
Not to mention - the person who is trying to remove SR is inherently in a losing position. Because a player can't always just switch to their SR remover as soon as the opponent uses SR. And in the meantime you are forced to take damage on switches, and maybe even not switch the way you want to because of your Pokemon having Stealth Rock weaknesses.
I just strongly disagree with the notion that Stealth Rock improves the quality of the metagame.
I think things would be far more fun if the entire population of Pokemon that are currently laughed at by players because of their stealth rock weaknesses were given a chance to shine.
1 Pokemon like Volcorana getting a buff without Stealth Rock is such a cop out reason to keep Stealth Rock in the Metagame.
---
Even with the addition of Defog, we're still talking about a very small number of Pokemon who can remove Stealth Rock compared to those who can put Stealth Rock on the field.
Not to mention - the person who is trying to remove SR is inherently in a losing position. Because a player can't always just switch to their SR remover as soon as the opponent uses SR. And in the meantime you are forced to take damage on switches, and maybe even not switch the way you want to because of your Pokemon having Stealth Rock weaknesses.
I just strongly disagree with the notion that Stealth Rock improves the quality of the metagame.
I think things would be far more fun if the entire population of Pokemon that are currently laughed at by players because of their stealth rock weaknesses were given a chance to shine.
Last edited:
So? I see VERY FEW people ever running anything out of the select 20-30 pokemon that are used often in OU, let alone in UU. and as the person mentioned above Defog gets rid of your own Stealth rock. Yeah, like many here are actually going to risk their own stealth rocks after risking so much usually to get them up in the first place.
If they were REALLY based on usage, T-tar, scizor, gliscor etc would all be banned because they seem to be on every 2-3/5 teams. Also, the system is flawed in that new players come in, see the few pokemon in ou and then only use them because they believe all the others are bad, which is false.
People are raving about the Defog change and many many people are going to use it. The trick id to let your opponent throw out his suicide lead or etc first, then switch in to Skarmory, Defog, and set up hazards of your own. You don't set up hazards before you defog unless you have to, and you don't defog while your hazards are down unless you have to.
But I'm done trying to explain things to you, stay mad forever bro.
Then your opponent gets a free turn to try and set up the stuff again, at least if it is not a suicide lead or the lead is not the only one and then trying to get rid of them forces you to get rid of yours in the process.
Even with Defog, Stealth Rock has so much potential for a one-time use that I think it's silly to not have it at all. Rapid Spin VS Defog will be interesting because RS can be Ghosted while Defog is taunt-able and counterproductive (and I just feel that going out of your way to make the field EVEN is meh)
Exactly. The Pokemon listed in OU continuing to be OU is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Same for UU/RU/NU.
There's no doubt that every Pokemon with a weakness to Stealth Rock is made significantly worse because of a one, single, measly little move named Stealth Rock that defines the entire competitive Pokemon scene.
Not really, there's no competition between Rapid Spin and Defog.
Rapid Spin does NOT remove your own Stealth Rock. Defog does.
At the beginning of Gen 6 people will probably mess around with Defog to test it out... and quickly realize that it's outclassed by Rapid Spin.
Since Stealth Rock is SO RIDICULOUSLY BROKEN, basically you'd be crazy to not use the move for yourself if your opponent is allowed to use.
Which is why Defog will ultimately fail.
Yeah, I do agree that Rapid Spin is much better if you're able to get it off. I can understand some of the appeal of appeal of Defog (like it's distribution), but if I had to choose I'd go RS.
What in the world sparked this discussion? You can't ban Stealth Rock because it cripples some Pokemon. You would have to ban every phasing move because it cripples set-up. You would have to ban Toxic because it hurts walls. You would need to ban U-Turn because it penalizes Psychic types.
Banning Stealth Rock is arbitrary. You're drawing a line and saying "I want this move gone because it hurts something I don't want to be hurt. I want special treatment to make sure these Pokemon are not hurt." Every Pokemon's viability is helped or hurt by the inclusion of every relevant move. Stealth Rock is no different. You can make the argument for most any good move. "I want Stone Edge gone because of it's scary attacking type. Rock STAB and coverage just hurts the viability of too many Pokemon and QuakeEdge only exacerbates the issue." It's ludicrous.
The entirety of the argument is useless because the reality is that we have it and arguing in a thread trying to uncover more data is not going to help push your case.
Banning Stealth Rock is arbitrary. You're drawing a line and saying "I want this move gone because it hurts something I don't want to be hurt. I want special treatment to make sure these Pokemon are not hurt." Every Pokemon's viability is helped or hurt by the inclusion of every relevant move. Stealth Rock is no different. You can make the argument for most any good move. "I want Stone Edge gone because of it's scary attacking type. Rock STAB and coverage just hurts the viability of too many Pokemon and QuakeEdge only exacerbates the issue." It's ludicrous.
The entirety of the argument is useless because the reality is that we have it and arguing in a thread trying to uncover more data is not going to help push your case.
I realize that Stealth Rock isn't getting banned. There are enough people who agree with you.
I just strongly disagree with your views. To me, Stealth Rock is a special case because its effects are constant. We're talking about a move that requires a 1-time use, with the easiest set up in the world, which then has a huge impact on the game for the remainder of the entire battle.
In Gen 5, I thought Weather was Overpowered, and it defined the metagame too much.
But while GameFreak realized their mistake with Weather and nerfed it, I believe they missed the boat with Stealth Rock. Stealth Rock might be fair if it only lasted for 5 turns. But to have it last for the duration of the game, and only have a few select Pokemon that can counter it - which even then puts the person trying to counter it at a disadvantage - just makes it too overpowered.
Stealth Rock is used in 90%+ of Pokemon battles, and its effects last for every move of the entire games. And its effects are significant, not minor. And it definitely creates an entire population of Pokemon that are not viable solely because of Stealth Rock.
Honestly, comparing Stealth Rock to moves like Stone Edge, Earthquake, U-Turn and Toxic is downright silly in my opinion.
I just feel that this kind of game-breaking advantage with a 1-turn set up that a ton of Pokemon has access to puts it in a unique position.
When the words "Stealth Rock" appear on the battle screen above 30 times per game is nearly every single... sorry, but that's just wrong. It's a disservice to the game.
stop being pussies and play the game.
Honestly you're saying "this great thing is used so incredibly often because of its utility and how it affects the game" is bad because it changed the game. You could mention that about a lot of other things in this game but you're making a stink about this one. I'm looking at the list of OU 'Mons from Gen 3 right now, the generation directly prior to Stealth Rock's inclusion into the game. Not a single one strikes me as a Pokemon left out of OU directly because of Stealth Rock--chances are, its fall was tied to other changes in the game simultaneously. If a Pokemon is being completely invalidated because of Stealth Rock, then chances are, it wasn't a very good Pokemon in the first place if one single thing is completely removing it from contention. This past gen, we had Volcarona who was 4x weak to it and lost half its health switching in and was still OU regardless of this weakness. If a Pokemon is good enough to be OU, then the inclusion of Rocks, which has counterplay in Spinning, Typing, and now Defog, should not have greatly affected a Pokemon's viability.
In layman's terms, Charizard sucks for a lot more reasons than its 4x weakness to Rocks, that was just its death knell.
First of all, the percentage of teams with Scizor are FAR FAR FAR less than the number of teams with Stealth Rock.
Second of all, each Pokemon and each move should be compared in its own right.
If a Pokemon is too good for the OU metagame, then it should be Uber.
And Moves should be viewed in their own right. The question with Moves - does the move have a game defining and negative impact on the competitive Pokemon scene? All evasion moves were banned. The use of putting more than 1 Pokemon to sleep was banned. And I believe Stealth Rock should be banned.
When it's crazy for both opponents to NOT constantly have Stealth Rock on the field, something is seriously wrong.
I've won games without using Stealth Rocks.
Your point?
But let's break this down. Why is Stealth Rock negative? Because it hurts the viability of Pokemon? Cool, it also holds beasts like Multiscale DNite and Volcarona in check. While I wouldn't assume the bug would go to Ubers without Rocks, it damn well would be a top 10 OU 'mon if they didn't exist.
The fact that you even have to say "I've won games without using stealth rocks before!" should tell you something right there. It's so ubiquitous that it is assumed it is used by both sides, and it is something of an accomplishment to win without it.
Saying that "Oh but it's going to make Dragonite and Volcorana so good!" is a bad argument. Obviously with any rule change, there are going to be winners and losers. Yes, Dragonite and Volcorana would be winners - so what? If they are deemed too good, then they will be banned to Ubers. So there's nothing to worry about there.
That's what TIERS are for. We don't need to worry about Pokemon becoming too overpowered.
But a game-defining move (like sleep-inducing moves, evasion moves, and yes - stealth rock) need to be considered separately.
Ultimately I think the metagame would be better off without Stealth Rock effecting every single turn of every single game that will ever be played.
Counterpoint: I think the metagame would be better off with stealth rock.
Dodge the question more, please.
How is Rocks negative?
Because right now, the entire emphasis of your argument is that it's basically omnipresent and that alone is a really bad argument lopl.
Stealth Rock? Strategic. No. PRECISELY THE OPPOSITE. It amuses me that people Stealth Rock is strategic.
It's actually the opposite of strategic. Because it's so overpowered, everyone uses it. Nearly always at the beginning of the game. "Set it and forget it". And then you inflict constant damage to your opponent for the remainder of the battle because of it. All because you clicked the move "Stealth Rock". Once. No other set up required.
I assume you're saying it's "strategic" because once in a while your opponent might try to Rapid Spin it away. The problem with this is that everyone knows who the Rapid Spinners are, so it's pretty easy to see coming. And even if your opponent does have a Pokemon with the potential to remove Stealth Rock from the field, you're still in a position of strength just for having placed it on the field.
It's almost impossible to find a reason not to use Stealth Rock early in the game. It's simply that good.
Sorry, but I don't see a move that is overpowered and easy to use as being "strategic".
It should never be that simple. You need to engineer a situation that lets you set it without getting baited into losing a pokemon for it or having to switch. You have to avoid taunt and Magic Bounce. You have to always remember it, especially with spinners and Defog.
Your arguments against Rapid Spin can be turned on Rocks themselves.
The interactions are complex and the strategy involved is interesting. Why is it not considered a strategic portion of the game?
Your arguments against Rapid Spin can be turned on Rocks themselves.
The interactions are complex and the strategy involved is interesting. Why is it not considered a strategic portion of the game?
I disagree.
My reason is exactly that - OMNIPRESENCE. In the true sense of the word.
People think Scizor being on 1 out of 4 teams is bad.
The effects of Stealth Rock are felt for about 90% of the time in 90% of the games.
I feel that having 1 move have such an impact on nearly every single turn of nearly single Pokemon battle makes Stealth Rock a special case, and it should be banned solely because of its omnipresence.
- Status