Move Stealth Rock

[WaterlooZoo]

To try to help redirect the topic back where it's supposed to be, I think Empoleon will be a great user of SR this gen. It has access to both SR and Defog, has nice resistances to Rock/Fairy and immunity to Poison which could possibly see an increase in usage this gen, has decent bulk, has access to Defiant if Sticky Web becomes a thing, and already sees decent usage in UU.

Unfortunately for the guy, he has a weakness to 2 of the most common attacking types in the previous gen, Ground and Fighting and also Electric. But I think having the ability to both set up Rocks and remove them is going to be the game changer. I think Donphan is currently the only user of both SR and RS in OU at the moment (please someone correct me if I'm wrong) but Skarmory will have access to SR and Defog as well this gen so I'm interested in how things will turn out.

Well, just to state the obvious, you're never going to use both Stealth Rock and Defog on the same team.

And again - do you really want to be the one using Defog and have your opponent being the Stealth Rock user? All you're doing is putting yourself in a defensive position and allowing your opponent to be in a place of strength.

The only way I can see Defog being more useful than Stealth Rock to a team is if your team has multiple Pokemon weak to Stealth Rock. But you still have to realize that you're making an important sacrifice by allowing your opponent to be in the place of strength - allowing them to be placing the entry hazards, and you going out of your way to try to remove them - while not being allowed to throw entry hazards back at them. Dicey.

---

Please... please tell me where I used the word "wall". Go ahead.

You can't? That's what I thought. Okay, now, pokemon that have reduced attacking stats, often have decent bulk, allowing them to take a couple hits, while being decently powered sweepers. That's not a "wall", that's called bulky offence. The reason they are used, is because they can take a hit, while still doing great damage. Then there are glass canons, they have higher attacking stats, but can't take a hit to anything really, or they die. Now, when you give the glass canon a focus sash, it now can take two hits like the first type of pokemon, all while dishing out more damage and being faster, making the first type of pokemon, way less useful, making more pokemon less outclassed than SR makes less usable.

There is a reason most Alakazam run focus sash, because the item is so damn useful when you don't worry about entry hazard. Also, if everything is focus sashed, choice scarfers become much less useful, as they can't revenge kill, they can only hit, leave at one HP, and the likely die. Again, showing how focus sash would ruin the competitive scene more than SR does.

Oh and I still think SR have a max damage % cap is far more useful, as your idea makes it way less useful for stall.

Several things...

First of all, the "glass cannon" users with Focus Sash would not have the ability to use crucial offensive items like Life Orb or a Choice Item - which is part of what made them so useful in the first place.

If a "bulky offensive" Pokemon can take a hit, while still using Life Orb or a Choice Item, then it's bulk is not going to waste at all!

I think you're confusing the difference between "very good" and "overpowered". Choice Scarf is very good on the right Pokemon, but it's not overpowered. It's very common, but it doesn't affect every single turn of every single game. I believe that Focus Sash would be in this same class. An excellent item on the right Pokemon, but not overpowered as heck or omnipresent like Stealth Rock.

 

[BROloom]

Well, just to state the obvious, you're never going to use both Stealth Rock and Defog on the same team.

And again - do you really want to be the one using Defog and have your opponent being the Stealth Rock user? All you're doing is putting yourself in a defensive position and allowing your opponent to be in a place of strength.

The only way I can see Defog being more useful than Stealth Rock to a team is if your team has multiple Pokemon weak to Stealth Rock. But you still have to realize that you're making an important sacrifice by allowing your opponent to be in the place of strength - allowing them to be placing the entry hazards, and you going out of your way to try to remove them - while not being allowed to throw entry hazards back at them. Dicey.

Several things...

First of all, the "glass cannon" users with Focus Sash would not have the ability to use crucial offensive items like Life Orb or a Choice Item - which is part of what made them so useful in the first place.

If a "bulky offensive" Pokemon can take a hit, while still using Life Orb or a Choice Item, then it's bulk is not going to waste at all!

I think you're confusing the difference between "very good" and "overpowered". Choice Scarf is very good on the right Pokemon, but it's not overpowered. It's very common, but it doesn't affect every single turn of every single game. I believe that Focus Sash would be in this same class. An excellent item on the right Pokemon, but not overpowered as heck or omnipresent like Stealth Rock.

Really? I think it would be very omnipresent, considering how many teams have a choice scarf on them already. Why do over half the Alakazams run Focus sash, rather than the extra damage from life orb? Because always taking at least two hits, instead of being OHKO'd, is so unbelievably useful.

As for bulky offence being allowed items, it can only boost either it's speed or attacking stat with the item, and with LO, it's losing 10% life doing so, while the sashed pokemon is faster, stronger, and taking 2 hits. Not only that, but for the bulky pokemon, it can still be OHKO'd. You'll argue "well run focus sash on it then", except then it becomes weaker than the glass canon sashes in every sense. The glass canons should be killed by neutral attacks, instead they're taking 2 hits from even SE attacks, while the bulkier pokemon are taking LO damage, are slower, and are dying in one hit to super effective attacks.

That is why stealth rocks exists, and why it's not banned, because sure, it ruins a few pokemon form being usable without support, but the good it provides from breaking stuff like sashes and multiscale is too important to remove.

You are far too busy looking at the bad things stealth rocks provides, which it does, I don't think anyone will deny that, but the good things do more than enough to justify its existence in the competitive environment.

 

[JamesOnyx]

Well, just to state the obvious, you're never going to use both Stealth Rock and Defog on the same team.

The Defog and SR combo has already been discussed in the Defog thread to an extent, but for the most part it's supposed to be used as a mid-game pivoting tool. Remove everything from the field with Defog on a decent match-up or switch and proceed to set up SR on the next turn. Bulky Pokemon or the likes of Skarmary won't have too much trouble finding time to execute this combo, and you won't have to worry about having just one SR setter. Both your Setter and "RS" slots (or in this case Defog) can carry it and help keep the pressure. Not to mention if they have already spinned your rocks away, what's the downside to Defog?

 

[WaterlooZoo]

To further add to this point, does anyone think that Alakazam with Focus Sash is a "broken" Pokemon? No. It's firmly in OU, but no where close to broken.

And Alakazam is like the PERFECT Focus Sash user. It's not going to get any better than that. In order for a Pokemon to make full use of Focus Sash it needs to be *naturally* speedy and hard hitting (since you're not going to be able to use any other items that will help you there). Alakazam is a perfect storm of naturally very fast, very hard hitting, and frail (thereby often making use of Focus Sash).

Not only that, but remember that Alakazam's Magic Guard allowed it to not receive damage from things like Sandstorm/Hail/Poison/Burn/etc. Other Focus Sash users will fall pray to secondary damage after the use of Focus Sash.

In other words, there are very few Pokemon, if any, who will be able to use Focus Sash as effectively as Alakazam can. And if it's not broken on Alakazam, it's not going to be broken with anyone else.

---

Really? I think it would be very omnipresent, considering how many teams have a choice scarf on them already. Why do over half the Alakazams run Focus sash, rather than the extra damage from life orb? Because always taking at least two hits, instead of being OHKO'd, is so unbelievably useful.

As for bulky offence being allowed items, it can only boost either it's speed or attacking stat with the item, and with LO, it's losing 10% life doing so, while the sashed pokemon is faster, stronger, and taking 2 hits. Not only that, but for the bulky pokemon, it can still be OHKO'd. You'll argue "well run focus sash on it then", except then it becomes weaker than the glass canon sashes in every sense. The glass canons should be killed by neutral attacks, instead they're taking 2 hits from even SE attacks, while the bulkier pokemon are taking LO damage, are slower, and are dying in one hit to super effective attacks.

That is why stealth rocks exists, and why it's not banned, because sure, it ruins a few pokemon form being usable without support, but the good it provides from breaking stuff like sashes and multiscale is too important to remove.

You are far too busy looking at the bad things stealth rocks provides, which it does, I don't think anyone will deny that, but the good things do more than enough to justify its existence in the competitive environment.

The crux of your argument is that Focus Sash would be an excellent item on some glass cannons. This is no different than saying that Choice Items / Leftovers / Life Orb are excellent items on specific Pokemon.

The fact that Focus Sash would become an excellent item is not a good argument for why Stealth Rock should be banned. There will always be excellent items. There will always be excellent Pokemon.

The difference with Stealth Rock in my view (and many others agree) is that the move is simply too insanely overpowered and omnipresent. The rewards it brings from the beginning to the end of the game for 1 turn of use are simply too much. And since GameFreak has not nerfed such an overpowered move, it should be banned in order to improve the overall quality and diversity of the metagame.

 

[Wendrika]

But isn't there an item clause that stops people from using full teams with Focus Sash? I mean, nearly every team uses Leftovers but you guys don't seem to pull hairs about it. Stealth Rock on the other hand can be exploited by your entire team, not just the pokémon using it.

Well, I don't know about you guys, but I want to be the change I want to see. I'll simply not use Stealth Rock. I might be missing out, and my Bug/Flying types will hate me for it, but the moral high ground is mine.

 

[raddaya]

Item Clause is not used in standard competitive battles.

 

[WaterlooZoo]

But isn't there an item clause that stops people from using full teams with Focus Sash? I mean, nearly every team uses Leftovers but you guys don't seem to pull hairs about it. Stealth Rock on the other hand can be exploited by your entire team, not just the pokémon using it.

Well, I don't know about you guys, but I want to be the change I want to see. I'll simply not use Stealth Rock. I might be missing out, and my Bug/Flying types will hate me for it, but the moral high ground is mine.

I do believe that official Nintendo rules usually have a "no duplicate items" clause. But this rule does not apply to the "standard metagame" which we are discussing - i.e. the rules made by Smogon and in turn used by most of the top competitive battlers online.

And believe me, I wish I could be using the AWESOME Flying Bugs with you... but unlike you, I simply don't have the balls of steel to use them unless Smogon ever makes a change. I salute you!

 

[manutdrule]

and officially nintendo only cares about doubles...where stealth rocks is trash. so they don't see a point directly nerfing stealth rocks anytime soon. believe me if they ever hold a big singles tourney and see for themselves the horror, SR would be nerfed to the core next gen

 

[ginganinja]

I would like to thank the certain users that did a fine job at derailing this thread from its intended purpose (you know who you are), and turning it into, I believe the phrase is: " a clusterfuck". Please do not do this within this thread, or in any other thread. This thread is to discuss the users of Stealth Rock in Generation 6, especially the users now and those after December 27th (when PokeBank is released). Consider this a general warning, if I catch users going off topic, and complaining that Stealth Rock is broken / needs to be banned / damage caps on Stealth Rock or whatever, then you will recieve an infraction. Please don't test my patience, and stick to the threads intended purpose please.

Have a nice day.

 

[Ryker]

That's going in the OP.

 

[WaterlooZoo]

I would like to thank the certain users that did a fine job at derailing this thread from its intended purpose (you know who you are), and turning it into, I believe the phrase is: " a clusterfuck". Please do not do this within this thread, or in any other thread. This thread is to discuss the users of Stealth Rock in Generation 6, especially the users now and those after December 27th (when PokeBank is released). Consider this a general warning, if I catch users going off topic, and complaining that Stealth Rock is broken / needs to be banned / damage caps on Stealth Rock or whatever, then you will recieve an infraction. Please don't test my patience, and stick to the threads intended purpose please.

Have a nice day.

Okay, if those are the rules, then that's fine.

Question though - is there any place on the Smogon forums where this sort of thing *can* be discussed by common users?

 

[Ryker]

In an effort to redirect this torrent, how about compiling a list of viable OU Stealth Rock setters currently on cartridge? I will work on updating the thread OP when I wake up.

At the moment, Aerodactyl can't get it on cart, which is a shame because I want to play with MegaAerodactyl sets. Tyrantrum and Carbink are the two users that immediately come to mind. Of the two, I would think Tyrantrum has more potential to see play in OU. This may be fueled mostly by ignorance of the both of them as I have not followed them closely, but I side against Carbink. Tyrantrum still has to find a niche to make it worth running over other dragons, but I am super skeptical of Carbink's 50 base HP and its very nature as SUPER taunt bait.

 

[ginganinja]

Okay, if those are the rules, then that's fine.

Question though - is there any place on the Smogon forums where this sort of thing *can* be discussed by common users?

No, because the community has proven time and time again, that threads on the topic just deteriorate into pointless circle jerks / flamewars that eventually result in the OU staff wading in and deleting half the thread.

 

[ginganinja]

This is ridiculous, the last 5 fucking posts have been continuing the argument, and ignoring what I just said. I don't know if these people are dumb enough to test my patience, but I will start straight up banning people if people insist on testing me.

 

[Toxicosis]

Hm... for gen 6 SR users... the only ones that would probably need looking into are the new Mineral group Pokemon: Honedge's line (intuition tells me they won't learn it), Carbink (naturally at Level 21) and Klefki (afaik, Klefki doesn't learn it, priority Rocks would be interesting to say the least).

Made a table of the egg groups of all the new Pokemon,

Red = Confirmed to not have
Orange = Personally, I don't expect these to have
Green = Confirmed to have
Purple = The ones I suspect

Field
Chespin
Fennekin
Bunnelby
Litleo
Skiddo
Pancham
Furfrou
Espurr
Eevee (Sylveon)
Dedenne


Monster
Helioptile
Tyrunt
Amaura
Bergmite


Human-like
Pancham
Hawlucha


Water 1
Froakie
Inkay
Skrelp
Clauncher


Water 2
Inkay


Water 3
Binacle
Clauncher


Dragon
Skrelp
Helioptile
Tyrunt
Goomy


Fairy
Flabébé
Spritzee
Swirlix
Dedenne
Carbink


Mineral
Honedge
Carbink
Klefki


Amorphous
Phantump
Pumpkaboo


Grass
Phantump


Flying
Fletchling
Noibat


Bug
Scatterbug

 

[Goutland]

With the loss of Stealth Rock as a TM and the lack of a move tutor for it, we may see some incompatibilities with Stealth Rock + 6th gen egg moves for Pokemon that learn it via those methods exclusively. As of gen 5, only 13 Pokemon learn Stealth Rock by breeding. Those lines will be unaffected by this, but for the other 30+ mons that don't get it through breeding it may be an issue. For example, Clefable might not be able to use a shiny new egg only fairy move if it wants to set up rocks, as it can only learn SR by TM or move tutor. How will this affect the metagame? Who knows, but we at least know that some old mons will still have to make sacrifices if they want to run SR despite some old combos now being legal (on Roserade and Azumarill for example).

I suspect we'll see a lot of the old SR users (Ttar, Heatran, Lando-T, etc) coming back, since Gamefreak doesn't seem to be giving the move out like candy as it did last gen. I really don't see Tyrantrum or Carbink being viable rock setters due to poor bulk and crappy movepool, respectively. I'm not too sure what else in 6th gen even gets the move, but if someone posts a list I'd be happy to give my opinions on a few.

And semi-off topic here, does anyone know if Tyranitar can even get SR as of now? Not that the pre-Pokebank metagame even really matters, but if it can't, then assault vest would probably be the item of choice on it for now. With SR available on Ttar, I can see the mega stone being used for the added bulk while also letting it set up rocks.

 

[Ryker]

IIRC, the Honedge line does not get the move.

TTar should get it because it is in the same egg group as Tyrantrum and had it as an egg move last gen.

 

[Goutland]

Ah I didn't know it could breed with Tyrantrum. Thanks.

 

[MapleSandwich]

I've been doing extensive like an hour of research on what can and can't exactly learn Stealth Rock in the 454 meta, since I've been interested in doing online battling again for the first time in years with how easy it is to make competitive-ready pokemon now. The current list of legal stealth rockers, to my knowledge, is: Golem, Steelix, Gigalith, Crustle, Sudowoodo, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, Tyrantrum, Forretress, Probopass, Aggron, Smeargle (obviously) and I think Mamoswine? It's not listed on Bulbapedia as being able to inherit the move from Smeargle, but they're both in the Field group, so I would assume Smeargle can just Sketch the move and breed it down, although I could be wrong.

This list kind of disappointed me, because without Skarmory and Gliscor being able to currently learn Stealth Rocks in Gen 6 the only really viable mons' I see here are Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Forrey, Aggron, and maybe Mamoswine. Smeargle will have better things to do in setting up Sticky Web with its one-turn safety, and I don't know if Aggron will want to waste an attacking slot on it either, since that mega form is a real monster. So far every team I've theoried for the legitimate Gen 6 meta has had to have either Ferrothorn or Tyranitar on it because of this. Does anyone have any thoughts on Gen 6 legal Stealth Rockers/any new information I've missed about the move's distribution?

 

[PKMN1]

I've been doing extensive like an hour of research on what can and can't exactly learn Stealth Rock in the 454 meta, since I've been interested in doing online battling again for the first time in years with how easy it is to make competitive-ready pokemon now. The current list of legal stealth rockers, to my knowledge, is: Golem, Steelix, Gigalith, Crustle, Sudowoodo, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, Tyrantrum, Forretress, Probopass, Aggron, Smeargle (obviously) and I think Mamoswine? It's not listed on Bulbapedia as being able to inherit the move from Smeargle, but they're both in the Field group, so I would assume Smeargle can just Sketch the move and breed it down, although I could be wrong.

This list kind of disappointed me, because without Skarmory and Gliscor being able to currently learn Stealth Rocks in Gen 6 the only really viable mons' I see here are Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Forrey, Aggron, and maybe Mamoswine. Smeargle will have better things to do in setting up Sticky Web with its one-turn safety, and I don't know if Aggron will want to waste an attacking slot on it either, since that mega form is a real monster. So far every team I've theoried for the legitimate Gen 6 meta has had to have either Ferrothorn or Tyranitar on it because of this. Does anyone have any thoughts on Gen 6 legal Stealth Rockers/any new information I've missed about the move's distribution?

Why not use some of those other pokemon, just because a pokemon is not in OU does not make it bad and actually many are just as good if not better than pokemon in ou. Golem, and steelix for example are great pokemon.

 

[Haruno]

I've been doing extensive like an hour of research on what can and can't exactly learn Stealth Rock in the 454 meta, since I've been interested in doing online battling again for the first time in years with how easy it is to make competitive-ready pokemon now. The current list of legal stealth rockers, to my knowledge, is: Golem, Steelix, Gigalith, Crustle, Sudowoodo, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, Tyrantrum, Forretress, Probopass, Aggron, Smeargle (obviously) and I think Mamoswine? It's not listed on Bulbapedia as being able to inherit the move from Smeargle, but they're both in the Field group, so I would assume Smeargle can just Sketch the move and breed it down, although I could be wrong.

This list kind of disappointed me, because without Skarmory and Gliscor being able to currently learn Stealth Rocks in Gen 6 the only really viable mons' I see here are Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Forrey, Aggron, and maybe Mamoswine. Smeargle will have better things to do in setting up Sticky Web with its one-turn safety, and I don't know if Aggron will want to waste an attacking slot on it either, since that mega form is a real monster. So far every team I've theoried for the legitimate Gen 6 meta has had to have either Ferrothorn or Tyranitar on it because of this. Does anyone have any thoughts on Gen 6 legal Stealth Rockers/any new information I've missed about the move's distribution?

You can yknow poke bank your mons with sr over..... I don't see why we're restricted to only mons that learn sr by breeding.

 

[MapleSandwich]

Why not use some of those other pokemon, just because a pokemon is not in OU does not make it bad and actually many are just as good if not better than pokemon in ou. Golem, and steelix for example are great pokemon.

would you mind providing actual examples of how these pokemon are great instead of just saying "They aren't OU therefore they are great?" I'm not following your logic. Steelix is not OU viable because it has few redeeming stats outside of defense, and is only really usable as a niche check to specific pokemon. I used to use it in Gen 4 OU as a very effective check to the physical sweepers then who didn't see it coming, but with the advent of pokemon like Mega Charizard, Mega Lucario, and extremely powerful water types, neither Steelix nor Golem exactly cut it as anything more than one-time scares, especially due to their lack of recovery options, very low speed, and nonexistant tempo choices.

You can yknow poke bank your mons with sr over..... I don't see why we're restricted to only mons that learn sr by breeding.

I know that we will be able to, but as far as I'm aware Pokebank isn't available yet, so until December (or whenever) no one playing gen 6 will be able to use Stealth Rocks that came from Gen 4 TMs or Gen 5 tutors, unless I'm wrong and they put up Poke Bank early?

 

[Ryker]

Pokebank is, yknow, not out yet.

 

[Haruno]

I don't see why it's unfair to claim that though since we're talking about Latis, terra and the likes which are also unavailable but mehs. Don't see why one can't talk about poke bank while people talk about unreleased mons aka every defog user and the likes.

 

[PKMN1]

would you mind providing actual examples of how these pokemon are great instead of just saying "They aren't OU therefore they are great?" I'm not following your logic. Steelix is not OU viable because it has few redeeming stats outside of defense, and is only really usable as a niche check to specific pokemon. I used to use it in Gen 4 OU as a very effective check to the physical sweepers then who didn't see it coming, but with the advent of pokemon like Mega Charizard, Mega Lucario, and extremely powerful water types, neither Steelix nor Golem exactly cut it as anything more than one-time scares, especially due to their lack of recovery options, very low speed, and nonexistant tempo choices.

Golem has sucker punch + sturdy and 120 atk, meaning in most circumstances you get to attack at least twice. Steelix has massive defense and its Gyro ball can hit hard as well as also having sturdy or sheer force. Both have Edgequake as well . Tyranitar and forretress are also weak to some of those pokemon and T-tar dies horrible to anything with a fighting type attack while forry and ferret die to a fire attack yet they are still used. and unlike Forry or Ferret, Steelix and Golem (along with several of the others you mentioned) can actually hurt stuff,Also with the sleep mechanic fixed, rest now works at the least as a decent option.