Strategy Analysis: Baton Pass Chain

[Mekkah]

Here.

After a long time, I finally finished writing this. I'm sure people like Roy, Obi and Jumpman16 as well as many others have their own views on this. If you're site staff, feel free to edit out obvious errors, include forgotten things, but if you're going to change something major please at least post.

If you don't have CMS access but wish to change something in this guide, post here. You could do it in the Edit an Analysis topic but if you post it here it will be fixed more quickly. Can't say I'm very keen on changing my own opinion unless you have some good numbers and reasons to back it up though.

Oh, and it's long. Really long.

 

[Jumpman16]

About time, you bitch =)

Will read carefully at work and probably offer my input later

 

[Aeolus]

As will I.

 

[GreenPikachu]

good read, mekkah.

i would mention the sexiness of Cradily though and its suction cups as an eventual recipient in a bp chain.

 

[Mekkah]

Cradily and such are more for these mini-BP teams, like Jaskwak. I think such an analysis (more general uses of Baton Pass) should be written on a later date. Suction Cups is useless with Ingrain up, and you need Ingrain to pull off a chain. Unless your opponent has no phazer, which means Suction Cups is futile again!

Also I think I just found out where Jumpman works.

 

[Jumpman16]

ok changes made:

• Added <br> tags to separate your Substitute bullet from the above text
• Appended your "or you are battling Tyraniboah, who hits super-effective on every Baton Passer on your team" with ", unless you're using Scizor"
• Appended your "Psychic would help against Heracross and other Fighters (Focus Punching ones really hurt) as well as Taunt Gyarados to an extent, and a Grass move protects against Tyranitar and also Dugtrio to an extent." with "Psychic will especially help against Weezing, who if not Spored, will be extremely difficult to beat otherwise, considering it carries Haze and a STAB Sludge Bomb that will be Celebi's bane when the Acid Armors/Iron Defenses are Hazed away. Besides Celebi's/Mr. Mime's Psychic and/or a premature reliance upon your recipient's attacks, Vaporeon's Surf is the only actual attack on a Baton Pass team that threatens Weezing, who laughs at Scizor's HP Bug and Ninjask's HP Flying."
• Changed your "Like Zapdos, Salamence can Roar out enemy Baton Passers, gives a Rock weakness, and needs to rely on mixed attacking. Nothing survives these three offered attacking moves once fully powered up though, and Intimidate can be very handy." to "You will probably get the most mileage out of Earthquake in the last slot, even if pokemon like Aggron, Muk and Arcanine aren't exactly huge metagame threats. Otherwise, nothing survives the first three offered attacking moves once fully powered up, and Intimidate can be very handy. Like Zapdos, Salamence can Roar out enemy Baton Passers, gives a Rock weakness, and needs to rely on mixed attacking."
• Appended your "Tickle can be fun to toy with" with ", and it goes through Substitute, which can be handy against something like Tyraniboah"
• Removed "or Careful " from your "Calm or Careful boosts Umbreon's higher defense stat."
• Added Trick Band part to your Counters section
• Fixed various typographical, grammatical and punctuation "issues" because I'm a nerd

Despite the volume of my edits possibly conveying a "nitpicky" nature, this is an A+ guide, Mekkah, and I"m not just saying that because I love BP teams. In addition to the Trick Band part, the "Psychic on Celebi" and "Earthquake on Salamence" bits are the only strategic amendations I made, which I of course only have the authority to suggest due to my experience with these pokemon on my own team.

 

[Mekkah]

I used a Baton Pass team today along the road, and I must say Weezing is quite annoying without anything to trap it and stall it out. I remember my old Baton Pass team had Umbreon and Trickband Mr. Mime (over Scizor and Celebi), I could just Mean Look against Weezing with Umbreon. If Weezing switched out it wouldn't pose a problem anymore unless they broke my chain, and if it stayed in I could Trickband it and stall it out (though CB Sludge Bombs do hurt Mr. Mime when Acid Armor is not intact...which would be a reason to put Reflect, albeit not a very good one).

Not sure if you added this but Trickband Mime counters Trickbanders to an extent.

Removed "or Careful " from your "Calm or Careful boosts Umbreon's higher defense stat."

Not that it matters much but why?

Anyway thanks for looking it over.

 

[Jumpman16]

No, problem, my pleasure even though (especially because? lol) I'm at work.

Regardless of the fact that we're both very well aware it dosen't carry any special attacks, I see no real benefit to drop speed on Umbreon. With or without a few CMs passed from Celebi/Mime, beating things like Zapdos, Raikou and Jirachi to the punch with Sub/Wish so they can't status you with TB comes in really handy, especially Zapdos who cannot beat Umbreon if it has at least +1Spd/SpA. The notion of a slower Baton Pass so Umbreon or its Sub takes the hit doesn't really appeal to me on a BP team, where the poke you're BPing in is just going to throw up another Sub anyway.

also how do you think you know where i work now lol IP Address

 

[Mekkah]

This is a great moment in history - I'm going to be correcting Jumpman16 on Pokemon and there's no way I'm going to be wrong. Oh wait, he thought Solrock couldn't Sunny Day and Starmie couldn't Camouflage.

Careful = -Special Attack +Special Defense
Calm = -Attack +Special Defense

See my "problem'?

 

[Slobroking]

confusion hurts less when -atk? :x

 

[Jumpman16]

This is a great moment in history - I'm going to be correcting Jumpman16 on Pokemon and there's no way I'm going to be wrong. Oh wait, he thought Solrock couldn't Sunny Day and Starmie couldn't Camouflage.

Careful = -Special Attack +Special Defense
Calm = -Attack +Special Defense

See my "problem'?

woot i confused sassy with careful, thanks snorlax

And I'm wrong a lot when I don't have an easy means by which to double-check my work (thanks shitty work pc), I normally check shit like that I'm not sure about

Anyway, Slobroking gave the real reason my edit is valid, since as you know you can and SHOULD do everything in your power to 100% shut out your opponent even if they're not using a Confuse Ray Crobat, which means even the little things like making Umbreon Calm and also giving it a 0 atk DV, along with every other pokemon on your team who doesn't use a physical attack. I lost once because Espeon's Attract, (which goes through Sub which may logically make sense but is dumb as hell if Taunt does not, "thanks GameFreak") went through Smeargle's Sub and worked twice in a row (25%). That loss made me make Smeargle Female (my Ninjask already is), just to lessen the chance of ever being fucked over by an Attract user, who are more likely to be Female.

 

[Mekkah]

confusion hurts less when -atk? :x

And Struggle does more damage when you use -Special Attack instead of -Attack. Neither will matter in 99.9999999999999% of your battles, therefore I offered both options, without the nitpicks behind it.

 

[Altmer]

The paragraph about reflect and light screen needs to mention wish.

 

[obi]

Toxic is actually more bugged than that. If Vaporeon is Toxiced, and I leave it in for 4 turns, and then BP to Scizor, then BP back to Vaporeon, it takes Toxic damage as though it was the 5th turn in. Attract isn't passed regardless of any conditions. Taunt cannot be Baton Passed because Taunt prevents you from using Baton Pass, Encore can't be BPed, either, for similar reasons. Torment is not BPed, either.

Replaced Block for Spider Web on Smeargle, as it has the slight advantage of more PP, which generally won't matter but it might every couple thousand battles or so. =)

On Celebi or Mr. Mime, Psychic is non-negotiable. It's far more useful than Substitute is, and I'd use it over Recover, too. Otherwise, Weezing, Haze Gengar, or Perish Song have no fear. Pretty much every Hazer is weak to Psychic, except Vaporeon, who generally Roars, and can be stalled out by your own Ingrained Vaporeon when trapped, whereas Weezing has the potential Will-O-Wisp to make it really unstallable. I also wouldn't use any Speed EVs on Celebi, but that's not nearly as clear cut imo.

I don't use max Speed on Medicham, nor do I use Jolly. I use the following Spread:
Medicham (M) @ Lum Berry ** Darth Tater
Trait: Pure Power
EVs: 242 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Baton Pass
- Brick Break
- Return
- Shadow Ball
This gives it 200 Speed, which is faster than virtually every Pokemon you'll encounter in standard play after 1 Boost already, and faster than everything after 2. Because I always get 3 boosts with Ninjask ASAP, this is very useful. The high HP also allows it to come in on Tyranitar, as CB / DD Rock Slide is a 3HKO. The absolute fastest I would ever use is 222 Speed.

As I said about Celebi, Psychic on Mime is essential. The standard set should be BP, CM, Encore, Psychic. Mime, again, doesn't need all that Speed. I use none.

 

[Great Sage]

CBTyranitar also gives BP teams a lot of trouble.

 

[Aeolus]

CBtar gives Zapdos lead BP teams trouble. Ninjask just subs... TTar rock slides... you pass to Scizor and then Iron Defense.

Only if it is lead will it cause a ton of probems.

 

[obi]

Tyranitar as a Pokemon really annoys teams that use Mr. Mime to wall Electrics; Sand Stream wears a guy down.

 

[Stall]

As a recipient, I generally use the following Zapdos.

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Spd / 252 SAtk
Rash Nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
- Baton Pass
- Drill Peck
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Thunderbolt


Doesn't need any speed EVs since after 6 Speed Boosts, it will outspeed anything. Pretty sure it can OHKO anything after +6 in both attacks.

 

[Cerivious]

Nice read.
In the counters section, i would like to add that since most bp teams can be predicted before the match(55-58 Team Power, lots of wins, etc), a specific anti-bp team can be used.

The following is courtesy of vapicuno's anti-bp, which he used against my bp team(Jask/Vaporeon/Zapdos/Smeargle/Celebi/Medicham):
Murkrow@Leftovers
-Drill Peck
-Taunt
-Thunder Wave
-WW

Regice@Leftovers
-Psych Up
-Ice Beam
-Thunderbolt
-filler

Skarmory@Leftovers
-Whirlwind
-Toxic
-Spikes
-HP Flying

And then rest was Weezing/Gengar/something.
The rationalisation is that Smeargle will not working on this team because of Insomnia on murkrow, which is faster than smeargle without a speed boost, and that the said smeargle will not get any speed boost since any attempts to use jask is nullified by skarm.

Murkrow: Counters sporing smeargle and taunts it, effectively disabling it.
Regice: Deals with Celebi, Zapdos and co. by Psych Up
Skarm: WWs out any attempt to boost speed by Jask
Weez: Haze, WoW.
Gengar: ML/PSong

 

[Judgement]

good read imo. also, an alt zapdos set should be added aka this one:

Zapdos @ Lum Berry
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Baton Pass
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Roar
- Thunderbolt

Why both Roar and Baton Pass? Because that way, if there is something you cannot take out already with this, you can still possibly keep your boosts. Roar will beat any phazer because Zapdos is, well, faster. Probably should just go Max HP and Sp Attack since the boosts will cover the rest quite nicely.

 

[Avery [old]]

I've been using a baton pass team Obi gave to me (the 5 standards and that Medicham). And I've noticed Zapdos will sub up against jask and give the team troubles especially with baton pass. the only thing to beat it is really mime, thus me using HP Rock jask. And rarely does SD even work on jask, I prefer HP Fly/Rock + Silver Wind for occasionnal sweeping for bastards along the lines of celebi/aero/hera after a SD from Scizor...

 

[SDShamshel]

I'm not sure how valid this is, but I've found Electrode to be quite dangerous to Ninjask unless it's configured to Jolly with close to max speed. If Ninjask decides to be adamant, it's basically screwed, as either a thunderbolt will end it in one hit, or Electrode can taunt it. In fact, with Electrode's speed, the ability to taunt the less offensive members of a bp chain (aka most of them), and the ability to explode, I think it does pretty well versus bp teams.

The thing that keeps it from being a completely reliable counter though is once again Jolly Ninjask.

 

[Jumpman16]

good read imo. also, an alt zapdos set should be added aka this one:

Zapdos @ Lum Berry
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Baton Pass
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Roar
- Thunderbolt

Why both Roar and Baton Pass? Because that way, if there is something you cannot take out already with this, you can still possibly keep your boosts. Roar will beat any phazer because Zapdos is, well, faster. Probably should just go Max HP and Sp Attack since the boosts will cover the rest quite nicely.

You "should be" Ingrained already lest WW Skarmory have completely shut you out from Turn 2. Further, there are times where you only have +3-4 SpA, and therefore aren't able to beat things like Blissey and Snorlax in one hit. That's why just boosting either Attack or Special Attack isn't really recommended — even a +3-4 Atk Medicham already has enough trouble with Weezing, and Zapdos will have an even tougher time trying to beat everything Specially. You may find that a Special-only strategy self destructs your chain faster than that Careful Snorlax can (puns woot).

And rarely does SD even work on jask

what, you can BP it into anything with a sub up and your opponent is fucked if they used a fighting or ground move (or doesn't attack)

 

[Mekkah]

The reason I like to put Swords Dance on Ninjask and keep Scizor/Mawile/Smeargle's slots free is that the only things Ninjask can do with the open spot is another attack or Protect which is usually just unnecessary. Scizor can, besides obligatory Sub/Pass, also Iron Defense, Swords Dance, Agility and any attack of your choice: it's even better suited to a Bug move than Ninjask because it can take on Celebi and Tyranitar, while I like Ninjask to use Hidden Power Flying. Smeargle has to pick from Spore or Block in his last slot (Ingrain is obligatory)...I have gone Subless before but early wake ups or unsuspected Sleep Talks are risks you simply do not want to take. I know Obi used Sporeless but I still feel that is risky, even if you have Sing on Mawile or Hypnosis on Mr. Mime or something. Plus Swords Dance feels dumb on Smeargle...if it can get in a Swords Dance, why not just Belly Drum to Medicham and finish it within 20 turns?

Mawile sort of has the same as Scizor: Iron Defense, Swords Dance and an attack, but also the excellent Taunt, which helps if you haven't Ingrained yet. All of that is better than what Ninjask has to offer.

Therefore, I believe Ninjask should be the one with Swords Dance.

 

[Great Sage]

Sorry for the bump, but the effects of full trapping moves such as Mean Look should be noted in the section that states what BP passes.