Suicune [QC 0/3]

[Freeroamer]

[OVERVIEW]

• Great bulk and solid defensive typing allows it to act as a reliable check to much of the metagame and act as one of the defining pokemon in UU.
• Pressure makes it hard to defensively check, as it can outlast some pokemon that would otherwise wall it comfortably.
• Access to Calm Mind allows it to slowly overwhelm teams once it's checks have been weakened which can either happen via Scald burns or by Suicune simply outlasting them through it's longevity.
• Predictable which means it's often prepared for.
• Other boosting pokemon will often win 1v1, such as Reuniclus, Slowking and Snorlax.
• Reliance on Rest for recovery means that it can be taken advantage of during Sleep turns and makes it difficult to rely on as a standalone check to threats.

[SET]
name: RoarCune
move 1: Roar
move 2: Scald
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk / Calm Mind
item: Leftovers
ability: Pressure
nature: Bold
evs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpDef

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

• Roar allows Suicune to pivot into pokemon that don't threaten it and rack up hazard damage by phazing them or the switchin back out. It also allows it to act as a check to set-up sweepers, such as Dragon Dance or Swords Dance Feraligatr.
• Scald is Suicune's most spammable STAB, it's chance to burn dissuades even resists from switching in.
• Rest is Suicune's only source of recovery and is essential for ensuring it stays healthy throughout the game.
• Sleep Talk allows Suicune to be less passive when it's eventually forced to Rest, with a 66% chance to select either Scald or Roar, dissuading pokemon from setting up on it. Calm Mind is also an option to act as a late game win condition, notably it allows you to beat other slow set up sweepers such as opposing Suicune and Reuniclus.

Set Details
========

• Leftovers is the chosen item for this set as it provides Suicune with a source of passive recovery which it greatly appreciates due to it's reliance on Rest for healing.
• The EVs give Suicune maximum physical bulk as it's typing is most catered to taking on physical threats such as Feraligatr, Aerodactyl and Mamoswine.
• Pressure is the chosen ability as it's Suicune's only available ability and helps PP stall out pokemon trying to wear it down.

Usage Tips
========

• Suicune should be used to pivot into pokemon that can't overly threaten it such as Cobalion. From there it should either Roar or Scald depending on the situation. If your opponent has a Water immunity or Pokemon that can switch into Scald with impunity and you have hazards up, Roar will often be the best play. If you have no hazards up then double switching out or Scald will be the best move.
• If there is a sweeper on the opposing team that Suicune is required to check, keeping it healthy and preventing it from resting is vital. This is particularly important if you are running Calm Mind over Sleep Talk, as when it's asleep it'll be unable to prevent itself from being overwhelmed. This includes sweepers such as Haxorus and Salamence, which Suicune can take one boosted hit from and then Roar them to eliminate their boosts.
• If running Calm Mind, you should aim to use Suicune's ability to spread passive damage through both phazing and burns to wear down it's checks to get into a position where it's able to overwhelm the opposing team late game.

Team Options
========

• Suicune greatly appreciates hazard support, as it allows it to quickly rack up damage through phazing. Examples of good hazard setters that pair well with Suicune are Forretress, Dragalge and Roserade. Specially Defensive Gligar can check the likes of Mega Ampharos while setting up Stealth Rock.
• Specially defensive pokemon also pair well with this as they can form an effective defensive backbone. Florges can provide Heal Bell support which offsets Suicune's Rest, while Dragalge is very comfortable switching into special Electric and Grass moves aimed at Suicune.
• Suicune appreciates hazards off it's side due to them wearing it down to the point where it's forced to Rest, reducing it's ability to wall or phaze. Poison types such as Nidoqueen and Dragalge can absorb Toxic Spikes while setting up their own hazards. Forretress loves Suicune's ability to switch into Fire attacks aimed at it, and in return can Rapid Spin away hazards and set up it's own. Mega Blastoise is an excellent Rapid Spin user, however it carries some redundancy with Suicune due to sharing it's mono-Water typing.

[SET]
name: Defensive Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Scald
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk
item: Leftovers
ability: Pressure
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpDef

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

• Calm Mind allows Suicune slowly become both more offensively and defensively threatening by boosting it's Special Attack and Special Defense.
• Scald is reliable STAB with a great chance to burn, further making Suicune harder to take down.
• Rest is Suicune's only form of recovery, and it allows it to shake off attempts to wear it down through status, albeit at the cost of being reliant on Sleep Talk for 2 turns.
• Sleep Talk makes Suicune less of a sitting duck and gives it a 66% chance of picking either Calm Mind or Scald.

Set Details
========

• Leftovers is the chosen item for this set as it provides Suicune with a source of passive recovery which it greatly appreciates due to it's reliance on Rest for healing.
• The EVs give Suicune maximum physical bulk which makes it difficult to break once it starts boosting.
• Pressure is the chosen ability as it's Suicune's only available ability and helps PP stall out pokemon trying to wear it down.

Usage Tips
========

• Early game Suicune should be used to pivot into resisted attacks and attempting to wear down it's checks, be it through forcing them to switch into hazards or by burning them with Scald.
• Once it's checks have been worn down to a sufficient degree, Suicune should find an opening, such as a pokemon which cannot directly threaten it or stop it using Calm Mind, and start boosting to win the game. Thanks to Suicune's naturally high Special Defense, after a boost or two it becomes nearly unbreakable save for the strongest super effective attacks.
• Be wary of surprise attempts to thwart Suicune, pokemon such as Chandelure can Trick it a Choice item and stop it in it's tracks. Gain as much information about the opposing team and it's potential roadblocks as you can before trying to win the game with Suicune.

Team Options
========

• Suicune most appreciates team-mates that can wear it's counters down until they can't check it anymore. Dragon types such as Hydreigon and Dragalge can check Electric and Grass types and in return Suicune can check Mamoswine, a huge threat to them.
• Residual damage is also an excellent way to wear down it's checks. Examples of good hazard setters that pair well with Suicune are Forretress, Dragalge and Roserade. Specially Defensive Gligar can check the likes of Mega Ampharos while setting up Stealth Rock.

[SET]
name: Offensive Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Hydro Pump / Scald
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Substitute / Extrasensory / Hidden Power Electric
item: Leftovers
ability: Pressure
nature: Modest
evs: 112 HP / 252 SpA / 144 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

• Calm Mind boosts both Suicune's Special Attack and Special Defense, and thanks to the increased investment Suicune has the potential to become very powerful after just a couple of boosts.
• Hydro Pump is Suicune's most powerful STAB, and when boosted will be punching large holes into non-resists that don't have huge special bulk. Scald can be used if a more reliable option is needed, it also has the benefit of more PP and the chance to burn checks early game if Suicune isn't ready to set up yet. The power difference is very notable however.
• Ice Beam has generally good coverage with Suicune's Water STAB, hitting mostly everything except opposing Water types.
• Substitute allows Suicune to punish the switches it forces, and also to avoid status such as Toxic which could hinder it's ability to sweep. If Substitute isn't needed, Suicune can utilise more coverage. Extrasensory can remove Toxicroak, a very common Suicune check especially if the set is as yet unrevealed. It also hits most targets that don't mind Water / Ice coverage neutrally, allowing Suicune to potentially break past some of them. Hidden Power Electric is weak, but it allows Suicune to hit opposing Water types such as Empoleon and Blastoise, and potentially beat them.

Set Details
========

• EVs allow Suicune to outspeed Adamant Honchkrow and defensive pokemon in it's Speed tier, such as Cresselia and Mandibuzz who might run some Speed.
• Leftovers allow Suicune to recover the lost health from making substitutes and stick around for longer in general and accumulate more boosts.
• Alternate EV spreads???

Usage Tips
========

• Attempt to identify pokemon that Suicune can potentially set up on later in the game. With no recovery, it's important that Suicune preserves it's HP for as long as possible so as to be in the best position for when it does sweep. Pokemon Suicune can set up on include physical attackers that can't really threaten it or that are forced out, such as Doublade and Entei.
• It's obviously important not to set up until your checks have been weakened. For example double switching would be the best play when vs a Blissey, while attempting to catch a Whimsicott with Ice Beam will make it much easier to use Suicune effectively late-game.
• Make use of the surprise factor this set can have, especially regarding coverage moves. A lot of people will assume you only have Water coverage, meaning you can potentially catch them out and put the advantage your way with Ice Beam and possibly Extrasensory if you're carrying it.

Team Options
========

• As with every Suicune set, entry hazards are hugely appreciated but the presence of Ice Beam on this set makes them especially important, as this set's checks tend to be grounded. Dragalge is once again a great fit, as it takes on Electric and Grass type attackers while laying Toxic Spikes to whittle Suicune's checks. Roserade can perform a similar role while laying down both Toxic Spikes and Spikes.
• This set appreciates pokemon that can take on special walls that Suicune will never be able to beat itself. Toxicroak is a fine example, beating Blissey, Florges and most Grass types in general. Whimsicott can be a useful partner as it tends to lure in and U-Turn out of pokemon that Suicune can set up on, such as Entei and Forretress. Encore and Stun Spore support can also be extremely helpful.

[SET]
name: Tailwind
move 1: Tailwind
move 2: Hydro Pump
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Extrasensory / Hidden Power Electric
item: Leftovers
ability: Pressure
nature: Timid
evs: 152 HP / 252 SpA / 104 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

• Tailwind doubles Suicune's Speed and it's teams Speed for 4 turns. It allows Suicune to remedy it's poor Speed and take on offensive pokemon it would normally struggle against. It can also be used to support the team if Suicune is about to go down but a team member can finish the job.
• Hydro Pump is Suicune's strongest STAB and is required on this set due to the lack of stat boosting, despite it's shaky accuracy.
• Ice Beam has good general coverage with Hydro Pump, with the two moves covering almost everything other than opposing Water types. In particular it targets Grass types that attempt to check Suicune.
• Extrasensory completes Suicune's coverage, giving it a way to hit almost everything neutrally. It also surprises Toxicroak attempting to set up or KO Suicune. Hidden Power Electric gives Suicune a way to hit it's fellow Water types but is very weak and will struggle to break anything moderately bulky.

Set Details
========

• EVs outspeed Scarf Mienshao under Tailwind and therefore pretty much the entire metagame. If you're not too interested in outspeeding Choice Scarf users a spread of 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe outspeeds Mega Aerodactyl under Tailwind while retaining more bulk and boosting power output.
• Leftovers is chosen on this set as even without investment, Suicune is bulky enough to set up Tailwind more than once during a game and the passive recovery from Leftovers helps it achieve this.

Usage Tips
========

• The primary aim of this set is simple, set up Tailwind where possible and use it to allow Suicune or it's team members to make the most of the Speed advantage while it's in play. This could be done by setting up Tailwind on a predicted switch to a check to defensive Suicune such as Mega Sceptile, and then beat it under Tailwind. This might open a hole for you or a team member to clean later in the match.
• If Suicune is low on health and cannot feasibly clean but might get an opportunity to set up Tailwind for a team member, it is best to preserve it until such a situation arises and use it as part of your win condition.

Team Options
========

• The ideal team-mates for this set are pokemon that can both make use of Tailwind and beat Suicune's checks. Lucario and Mamoswine are great examples of these, as they both hit extremely hard on the physical side, while having priority of their own to counteract opposing priority that doesn't mind Tailwind.
• As with every offensive pokemon, this set appreciates hazard support. Azelf and Nidoqueen can set Stealth Rock early game while making use of Tailwind thanks to their offensive presence.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

• Toxic can wear down some Suicune checks as they attempt to come in, but it usually struggles to find space for it on a set.
• Mirror Coat can be used to grab surprise KOes on special attackers trying to target Suicune's often weaker defensive stat, however it's unreliable and often a waste of a slot.
• Hidden Power Grass hits Gastrodon and other Water / Ground types hard, but misses out coverage on Empoleon while for the most part Water STAB is enough to beat those pokemon.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Specially bulky boosters**: The likes of Reuniclus, Slowking and Snorlax can boost alongside Suicune and eventually beat it thanks to hitting it on it's weaker stat.

**Water immunities**: Heliolisk and Toxicroak handle defensive Suicune extremely well, as the only thing it can do is Roar them out, while they can hit it hard or in Toxicroak's case, attempt to set up on it. They find it more difficult to check offensive sets however. Jellicent is a solid check to most Suicune sets thanks to it's typing, special bulk and access to Taunt to shut Suicune down.

**Grass Types**: Most Grass types can somewhat handle Suicune, especially if they don't mind burns too much. Shaymin's powerful Seed Flare and access to Natural Cure, as well as the special bulk to take an Ice Beam if needed mark it out as a solid check. Roserade can also perform this role. Rotom-Mow, Tangrowth and Whimsicott can all check Suicune too but will be hampered by burns from Scald which is especially important as Whimsicott and Rotom have no recovery outside of Leftovers.

**Special Walls**: Blissey stops offensive sets dead in their tracks while the Roar set doesn't particularly threaten it either. It will hold up the defensive Calm Mind set somewhat but will eventually be PP stalled thanks to Pressure. Slowking can take hits from any set and Dragon Tail boosted Suicune out, but will lose 1v1 in a last mon situation if it doesn't have Calm Mind of it's own.

 

[nv]

On RoarCune, you will want to slash Calm Mind with Sleep Talk as it allows Suicune to set up as well as phaze out other set-up sweepers, becoming an even bigger threat. Mention in Moves though that with the lack of Sleep Talk, Calm Mind variants become major setup bait if they are forced to Rest "early".

I will do another post once this is more updated as this is heavily W.I.P. right now lol.

 

[Omfuga]

name: Offensive Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Hydro Pump
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Substitute / Extrasensory / Hidden Power Grass
item: Leftovers
ability: Pressure
nature: Bold
evs: 76 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Spe

Why a bold nature on an offensive Suicune? And then those EVs are clearly mistaken.

 

[Freeroamer]

Those are a leftover from the copypaste, I'm still working on getting this up dw I do know the basics lol

Will post when this is ready for comments

 

[Bouff]

Freeroamer progress on this? i know this is a fairly large analysis but u havent edited it in more than a week and this is one of the more important ones D:

 

[Freeroamer]

Gradually working through this, have a lot of spare time tomorrow so will do this then. I should've let you know but I had a lot of unexpected stuff come up this week D:

 

[Kreme]

Freeroamer it's been almost another week since it was last editted so um you still up for doing this or are you too busy? If it's the latter I'd love to take over, if given your consent along with that of IB's and Bouff's ofc.

 

[Freeroamer]

Yeah sorry, stuff just keeps popping up so I'll be fair, I should be able to finish this skeleton tomorrow but if it's not ready for QC by end of tomorrow, feel free to reassign.

 

[Freeroamer]

Apologies for double post, but this is (finally) ready for some QC. Be gentle with me please! :3

 

[Ununhexium]

SubCM deserves its own set imo especially since Roar SubCM doesn't really work offensively

 

[mertyville]

Shouldn't Chesto Berry + Rest be mentioned in the OO for both Calm Mind sets?

 

[Ununhexium]

RoarCune

• I would recommend referencing other sweepers RoarCune beats out, like Salamence and Haxorus. Also it beats a lot of other common Pokemon like Sharpedo and Mega Aerodactyl
• Under team options when you mention Roserade, you should say it also resists Electric- and Grass-type attacks
• Gligar and Florges can beat some forms of Heracross which is huge

CroCune

• Under usage tips mention how with Suicune in particular how its important to remove its checks because boosting then getting Roared or getting Taunted so it can't set up is annoying. Also removing Heliolisk and Toxicroak is HUGELY important
• Team options should have Toxicroak / Heliolisk checks and maybe even mention things that can beat Roar Empoleon because that's a really good Pokemon as long as Suicune isn't the last Pokemon
• Also like before maybe hazard removers because Suicune hates Spikes

Offensive CM

To be entirely honest I think Tailwind should be a part of this set and SubCM should get its own set, but regardless

• Mention how it's not particularly strong without a boost but it is relatively easy to get them thanks to its bulk and matchup against common Pokemon like Dragon-types / Gatr / Aero
• When you say it can set up on Entei mention how it's preferable to have it locked into something other than Sacred Fire as burns really inhibit Suicune's ability to set up and stuff
• Team options should mention hazard removal and maybe cleric support because status sucks
• Also maybe Heracross as a partner too because in addition to other Empoleon / Blissey / etc it can beat Cresselia / Reuniclus / Slowking which can be really annoying because of Dragon Tail

I still think Tailwind should be part of Offensive CM and SubCM gets its own set

Checks & Counters

• Empoleon deserves more love as it beats everything not running HP Electric
• Also I don't really know where you would put this but ironically enough RoarCune is a decent check to non-last mon CM Suicune lol

Not QC js

 

[Omfuga]

I still think Tailwind should be part of Offensive CM and SubCM gets its own set

Not QC js

^^ Fix this please. Tailwind should be a part of offensive and subCM is worth its own set

 

[dodmen]

Yeah unfortunately I have to agree that Sub CM needs its own set while the latter two sets can be combined - like Tailwind 3 attacks is really weak without CM and unboosted HP Electric for example isn't gonna really do damage to anything. So:

-Remove Tailwind + 3 attacks set
-Changed 3rd set to below
-Add defensive Sub CM

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 112 HP / 252 SpA / 144 Spe
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Hydro Pump / Scald
- Ice Beam
- Substitute / Tailwind / Hidden Power Electric
(keep esensory in set comments)

sniped by fuga.

 

[Bouff]

yea, i agree with dodmen and omfuga's sentiments. also rename defensive cm to crocune pls D:

also i would give ib a mention for crocune, keeps grasses and croak a bit honest provided u can get a boost

 

[Freeroamer]

If he still wants it, dodmen is taking this over cos uni means I'm taking wayyyyy too long to get it done

 

[IronBullet]

Reassigning this to Kreme, feel free to post the skeleton