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Sun of a Gun

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by Jimmyftw, Aug 15, 2013.

  1. Jimmyftw


    Jul 26, 2013
    === [ubers] Sun of a Gun ===

    Hello, I would like to share a team I been having a lot of success lately. This is my first RMT and the second team I ever built. After a failed attempt in creating a rain team, I decided on a sun team. This is a pretty standard team, all sets are taken directly from Smogon with minor editing in EV's (speed-creeping). There is no surprises, no gimmicks, no niche, just pure strategy utilizing prediction and the team's synergy. Please keep in mind that while none of the sets contains surprises, surprise plays can and will be made.

    Now on to the team!

    Groudon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Dragon Tail

    First up is Groudon, the physical wall of this team. Stealth Rock is the mandatory hazard stripping off 50% of the opposing Ho-oh as well as taking 25% off Rayquaza, Shaymin-S, and Lugia. Dragon Tail is the move I use about 60% of the time after SR is set up. The thing is, Dragon Tail creates huge momentum by hitting Groudon's common switch in's and racking up hazard damages. Dragon Tail and SR works amazing together as it puts a lot of pressure on the opponent in term of making a decision to switch or not to switch. EQ is for stab and hitting Dialga for good damage. Stone Edge is mainly there for Ho-oh and Ray however with SR and Dragon Tail, Ho-oh cannot switch into Dragon Tail and Ray takes big damage as well as SR. Hence, I am considering replacements for Stone Edge. Particularly Fire Blast can be helpful for those pesky Ferrothorn and Forretress as well as doing more damage to opposing Groudon. TW an toxic can also be helpful.

    Ho-Oh @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 240 HP / 176 Atk / 84 SDef / 8 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Sacred Fire
    - Brave Bird
    - Substitute
    - Roost

    With SR off the field, Ho-oh is a beast, not doubt about it. Not even Kyogre likes switching into Brave Bird and oftentimes, Ho-oh will be behind a sub when Kyogre switches in. Substitute eases prediction greatly and allows you to chose the right move for the switch in's. Although if the opposing team has a Kyogre it will likely switch in so you can BB right off the bat. However when SR if not on the field, Ho-oh can recover off the sub and recoil from BB via Regenerator. Ho-oh's sub is also durable enough to withstand Shaymin-S and Giratina's attacks among others. Roost is helpful for shufflers as well as recover off SR and general recovery. Sacred Fire is a very strong move under sun, however, one needs to play smartly for 8 pps go by fast. Ho-oh is my answer to CM Arceus that are not electric or rock type. Water Arceus is not a problem under sun. Electric and rock variety are deal with by Groudon, while Ho-oh resists Groudon's grass weakness and takes ice beams for it. They do share a water weakness, however, this is mitigated by sun. Ho-oh is a semi-reliable special wall with SR up and nearly unbreakable wall with SR gone, coming in on opposing scarf Palkia, Darkrai and Shaymin-S, to name a few. That said, it is best for SR to be gone, which I will explain later.

    Palkia @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Spacial Rend
    - Surf
    - Thunder
    - Fire Blast

    Every team needs an answer to Kyogre and will appreciate a scarfer. Scarf Palkia hits two birds with one stone. Spacial Rend is choose over DM because being at -2 mean the opponent can come it and set up and with the dangerous set-up sweepers running amok in Uber, DM is not a good move for this team. Thunder is to hit Kyogre, however locking into Thunder does run Palkia into trouble with the Kyogre/Ferrothorn/Giratina(a/o) core. Palkia also cannot risk to predict against Kyogre early on since full health Spec Water Sprout does a lot of damage even to Palkia. Palkia's dragon weakness is covered by Forretress while Palkia resist Forretress's fire weakness. Palkia also resist Ho-oh's and Groudon's water weakness which is weaken still be sun. Usually to deal with the Kyogre/Ferrothorn/Giratina(a/o) core, the combination of Palkia/Forretress/Giratina-o is used. Fire Blast under sun does a lot to frailer mons and not a bad move to lock into late game with sun up. While surf don't see much use due to being a sun team, if the opponent manage to win the weather war (rain), rain-boosted surf is pretty handy.

    Forretress @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature
    - Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Toxic
    - Pain Split

    I mentioned before how vital it is for SR to be gone. In the Uber tier, this is very hard to do due to the bulky spinblockers: the Giratinas and Ghostceus. Forretress is also this team sleep fodder so this is made even harder. However with Forretress's resistance and synergy, it can more often than not pull it weight in battle. Toxic is a great move on Forretress, as not only does it cripple Giratina-O and Ghostceus but also put Mewtwo and Ekiller on a timer. Forretress is this team's back up answer to Ekiller as once poison, mind game is played to bring opposing Ekiller down with minimum effort. Mind game being switching between Arceus and Giratina-o to take Shadow Claw and Espeed respectively. Groudon can also counter Ekiller and along with Forretress and Ho-oh make up the defensive core of this team. Now, spinblockers are Forretress's enemy, so it follows that they need to be gone. Luckily, Ho-oh deals with Ghostceus and Giratina is handled by Giratina-O. Meanwhile opposing Giratina-O succumb to toxic damage due to lack of recovery.
    This paves the way for a spin. Forretress also hates sub user but it doesn't mind coming into Lugia since it is immune to toxic and can set up spike and rapid spin alway while not fearing phasing as it can just come right back in and due to phazing's negative priority set up more spike. Pain Split so Forretress can arguably be the best Ferrothorn counter. A while back, a member of the forum told me to my surprise, that Pain Split, a normal move, works on ghost Pokemon. This helps Forry outlast the Giras due to the latter high HP.

    Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 Atk / 252 SAtk / 8 Spd
    Naughty Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Dragon Tail
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Giratina-O is what I like to called a "mid-game mini sweeper." It has great utility behind it's moves and pick off where Groudon left off with phazing and racking up hazard damage. Besides picking off weaken mons with Shadow Sneak, Dragon Tail is my go to move 60% of the time as with Groudon. I just love the momentum that DT provides, forcing out switch in's while dealing damage and hazards. DM is the power move, which I will use if the opponent Pokemon is at relatively high health. HP fire is for Forretress and Ferrothorn and is power up in sun. Giratina-O along with Ho-oh and Arceus comprise the offensive core of this team with offensive synergy. Giratina-O is also a shaky check to Kyogre once Palkia is gone. Giratina-O also resist Arceus's fighting weakness while it's ghost weakness is cover by Arceus. Gira's fear of Darkrai is taken care of by Ho-oh as it can take a +2 DP even with SR.

    Arceus @ Silk Scarf
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Shadow Claw
    - Recover

    Last but not least, we have our late game sweeper, Ekiller. Standard set with emphasize on HP since Ray and opposing Arceus are not threats. 16 speed to outpace neutral 90's. Forgoing EQ for Recover means Dialga is a problem, but I have Groudon to take care of support varieties and Ho-oh deals respectable damage to it. Recover is more useful to this team, saving me a lot of time when the opposing player use brute force to take Arceus down. With max HP, Arceus is pretty good with recover. Ekiller completely mess Deoxy-S up as a Shadow Claw follow by Espeed means Deo-S did nothing (most of them will taunted for fear of SD). This is good since teams that rely solely on Deo-S for hazard won't be getting any down which makes Ho-oh that much more threatening.

    Threat list

    Mewtwo: I have no safe switch in so someone is going down. However, I do have some speed namely Scarf Palkia and the double priority provide by Gira and Arceus. But if Mewtwo CM up, Palkia is no longer reliable to revenge it.

    Latios/Latias: same as for Mewtwo, these have to be played around. Psyshock is a cheap move hitting Ho-oh hard.

    Spec Kyogre: It does big amount of damage even to Palkia when Kyogre is at full health. Thus, hazard must be lay to reduce WS power.

    Non-Choice Palkia: In rain, Ho-oh cannot take a Surf while Arceus cannot set up on Palkia with Rain boosted, Lustrous Orb boosted stab Surf. Hydro Pump is even more deadly. My only chance is for scarf Palkia to be well to revenge it.


    Thank you for taking the time to read this. I am open for suggestions in improving this team. :)
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2013
  2. Jimmyftw


    Jul 26, 2013
    Hi, thank for the rate :) Yes, non-choice Palkia is a threat to this team, I'll add it to the threat list. Palkia can revenge it but also Palkia job is to counter Kyogre so it may not stay that long. I will try TW on Groundon but seeing as how I how two priority users and a scarf mons TW benefits Ho-oh the most. Also sub Mewtwo is already a big threat since Forry cannot check it with toxic so TW also will not help against Sub Mewtwo. Fortunately, sub Mewtwo is rare sight. I did tried SR on Forry but Forry already has a lot of job to do. It needs to spin, spike and toxic set up sweepers. Most match he can only manage 2 out of 3 so there is ready no room for SR on Forry. Also Forry has to take sleep from Darkrai so I risk putting all my eggs in one basket.
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2013
  3. Jimmyftw


    Jul 26, 2013
    Added nice new sprite!
  4. steelskitty

    steelskitty jacqueline
    is a Community Contributoris a Past WCoP Champion

    Jul 6, 2013
    Alright. Some issues I'm noticing with your team.

    Opposing Rock Polish Groudon is a huge offensive threat to your team. It muscles through your Ho-oh, Giratina-O, Arceus, and Palkia quite easily, while all Forretress can do to it is Toxic and your own Groudon will lose if it's the last mon. Grassceus is quite viable in place of EKiller as it checks Rock Polish Groudon (Grass Knot OHKOs it at full health) and it doesn't even need to worry about Ho-oh if it packs Stone Edge (as this generally OHKOs Ho-oh without Rocks up). A good set on Lure Grassceus is Grass Knot/Stone Edge/Thunder Wave/Recover with 132 HP/252 Satk/124 Speed with a Timid Nature... Ho-oh switching in hoping to set up a sub eats a Grass Knot and then can't live the incoming Stone Edge.

    Specially Defensive Forretress goes a long way for your team, helping to sponge numerous Dragon Attacks and generally catching people off guard. Sadly I can't really see Toxic being viable on it, though Pain Split is actually a really cool idea. I'd run Volt Switch over Toxic as a way to preserve momentum for your team while also letting you semi-check Cloyster (something that gives most sun teams a lot of issues). If you find yourself unable to damage anything with Pain Split, Gyro Ball is a solid option over it.

    Hidden Power Fire on mixed Giratina-O might seem like a cool idea, but it's generally useless outside of hitting the occasional Genesect/Forretress/Ferrothorn that's stupid enough to stay in on you lol. Will-o-wisp is typically a better option to serve as a backup Extremekiller Arceus check and also cripple setup sweepers hoping to switch in after the Special Attack drop from Draco Meteor.

    Your Ho-oh and Groudon are solid, but Ho-oh can probably afford to run Life Orb when you consider the fact that it has Regenerator+Roost and appreciates the extra power. I'd keep Groudon the way it is, but maybe speedcreep it a bit more... say, 20 EVs.

    All in all, good team. As a final note, if you want to go offensive, Espeon is completely viable in Forretress' place as it's a hard stop to most setup sweepers with Yawn while also being able to actually function vs. Hyper Offense. However, your team appreciates the Steel-Type so you don't have to sac something every time the opponent brings out a dragon.
    Sweep likes this.
  5. Jimmyftw


    Jul 26, 2013
    Hi. Thanks for the rate, I really appreciate it. Since two people in a row have suggested Grassceus in place of Ekiller, I will give it a try. However, if I forgo Ekiller, I won't have a setup sweeper anymore, hence unable to do real damage. Do you have any suggestions to remedy this?

    I really like the idea of Volt Switch, preserving my momentum and also going hand and hand with Dragon Tail. But, I would rather give up Pain Split then Toxic. Toxic on Forry has it uses, namely, crippling set up sweeper and with Forry's defensive synergy with the rest of my team, smart switching can bring the opponent down quickly. I will replace Pain Split with Volt Switch, as it help against Ferrothorn even better since I can VS out to Ho-oh who can then proceed to set up a sub.

    I put HP fire on Giratina-O for the sole purpose of eliminating Forry and Ferro, WoW has better utility I agree, but generally this team does not have any problem with physical attackers and toxicing set up mon is usually my preferred option. Also, Ho-oh can often burn the opponent so I feel WoW is not necessary.

    Lastly, thanks again for the rates, I hope you have more for me, since I believe this team has potential but needs improvements.

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