Super Smash Bros. Brawl Discussion #2 (spoilers)

[Atlas]

hey! what happened to axem ranger black! :@

 

[StrangerDanger]

Red one is Falcon.

I dont even really care about falcon confirmation, but it's like he's toying with us now.

 

[dak]

yellow one looks like midna

 

[HotGarbage]

yellow one looks like midna

I think it kinda looks like those metos guys

.... well actually now that I think about one of the enemies in this video look like them too:
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26661.html

silly Sakurai.


But yea, multi man melee. I'm glad to see it return, if only because it's an obvious way to unlock some characters. This might be one of the first modes I play for that very reason actually.
...And I can't help but wonder which one of those guys Bowser will be. Maybe Sakurai didn't show all of them?
EDIT: Or maybe I'm just assuming these guys will behave like the SSB ones and not the SSBM ones :P

 

[Steeler]

Why do you care then if you admit they play differently? Clone is just a word people made up because when they see the same animation, they instantly assume it's the same attack. Guess what, it's not. They behave completely differently. You people need to look past the attack animation and think about what the attack actually does. The range, priority, knockback, power, trajectory, time, is different for each one.

no...it's not different for each attack on each clone >_> quite a few of dr. mario's moves are directly taken from mario's repertoire. two of his smashes, the fsmash may simply have an electric effect rather than fire, etc. you play them exactly the same way. okay, great, some moves do have different range etc etc

but hello, you play some of these guys exactly the same way, THAT is why they are clones.

a lot of those clones aren't different enough. ganondorf is because he's so much slower and powerful, falco...kinda is..., ylink is faster and weaker (but a lot of his attacks are just a bit weaker link attacks...), pichu really only offers weaker attacks (for the most part, skull bash is more powerful) and self damage, dr. mario is the closest clone imo, roy is a little stronger/slower and of course the sweet spot deal.

I love clones and hope Brawl has more of them. I'd rather have 5 clones than 2 "unique" characters.

firestorm what the fuck dude. take out dr. mario/pichu/ylink/roy and one of falco/ganondorf in melee and replace them two of the new characters in brawl...? pit and metaknight perhaps? wario and sonic? pick two.

or take out dr. mario/pichu/roy and completely alter ganondorf and falco?

hmmm. your opinion but i much prefer the latter, they provide completely new styles of play.

Oh, and what's this bs about "being the same person"? This isn't Zelda or Mario. This is Smash Bros. I only care about what type of gameplay experience they give me. Not how they have the "same" character twice.

well the reason a few of these people are clones in the first place is that they are the same character anyways. =\ regardless, i think i'd like to see more new unique characters, some from new universes, than different versions of characters in the game

have you ever considered that

1. all of the clones in melee are hidden characters

2. there are 5 "unique" characters hidden in melee (jiggy, mewtwo, one of marth/roy, gw, and if you count luigi)

3. this means you unlock more "altered versions" if you'd like to put it like that, of characters than new, unique characters (6 to 5)

that's one of the things that bothered me a good deal about melee

ps the differences between any of the clones are nowhere near as pronounced as they are between luigi and mario

ugh whatever. you don't have to take them out of brawl, although some characters aren't returning anyway, but hell man give me some new shit over mario/marth/link/etc version 1.2 (or 0.8 in some cases) i'm sure overabundance of clones won't be a problem in brawl, i'm sure it won't have the same ratio of clones as the last game...which was too high for my tastes.

 

[Firestorm]

This is just a pet peeve of mine but I think it's because I'm tired of so many smash newbies repeating it. Roy is not stronger than Marth. Roy is weaker than Marth.

Anyway, Mario and Doc aren't played the same way. None of the clones are played the same way.

Anyway, let's take the power of GameFAQs and post it here.

Fox vs. Falco

Wavedash length: Fox's is longer.
Running speed: Fox is faster.
Taunt length: Fox's is shorter (4 frames so not that much of a difference)
Falco falls faster than Fox, although the acceleration of Fox's fall is higher.
Falco jumps higher.
Fox can foxtrot to go faster than his normal dash.
Fox's up B goes farther than Falco's.
Fox's blaster shoots faster, but doesn't stun.
Falco's blaster shoots more slowly, but does stun.
Fox can Short-Hop Double Laser (SHDL) while Falco can only Short-Hop Laser (SHL).
Falco's D-tilt and F-smash have more KO ability.
Fox's U-smash and u-air have more KO potential.
Falco's d-air is a spike (not a meteor smash) while Fox has a drill kick.
Fox can shine-spike.
Falco's reflector's knock back depends on the damage the opponent has, while Fox's is a set distance that depends on traction.
Fox has infinite combos.

Credit to Wavedasher75

Falco's SHL is useful as a pressure game, approach, retreat, and even as hits between combos. The laser is disruptive and the damage is decent. His u-tilt juggles better, meaning that that becomes essential in little combos and whatnot. His f-air gets more used because of its knock back so shffled f-airs aren't uncommon. He'll get kills through F-smash, b-air, or d-air spikes...maybe u-air, I suppose. His shine combos involve jump-canceling the shine or waveshining into an aerial, as it sends opponents upwards where they are in perfect position for a spike back to the ground where the process can be repeated, or another attack depending on DI and whatnot. His recovery also sucks a bit.

Fox's SHL is somewhat useful, but without the stun/knock back of Falco's, it's not disruptive and just tacks on little bits of damage. It can be doubled in a short hop, however, for whatever that's worth... just doubling the damage, really. The set knock back on his shine gives him a very different type for his Shine combos, and also allows for low-percentage kills with shine-spiking (See shine-spike in the terms section). His shine combos utilize the set knock back of the shine to form combos such as waveshining into a follow up, or even continuing with more waveshines or drillkick waveshines. This allows him flatland infinite combos AND infinites against walls, where he just doesn't have to move forward. His U-smash and u-air are killers. Fox's kills tend to be vert kills or shinespike kills. Shffled sex kicks get used more than f-airs with him, contrary to Falco.

Where Falco's game revolves around SHL to control the stage and shine-aerial combos, along with chained f-airs and side kills or d-air spikes, Fox focuses more on the sexkicks, drillshines and waveshine combos, shine spikes and vert kills.

Credit to Tobias XelKythe

Dr. Mario vs. Luigi vs. Mario

Weight: All three weigh the same.
Wavedash length: (Doc/Mario)same, but Luigi’s is the longest.
Running speed: not a noticeable difference(Doc/Mario not sure about Luigi).
Taunt length: Mario’s is obviously the longest (not sure about Doc/Luigi), Luigi's is damaging.
Luigi is floatier than either of the other two- as a result, he can do two aerials in one short hop without much difficulty.
Mario's f-air is a meteor smash, Doc and Luigi’s f-air aren't.
Doc's b-air has somewhat of a downward trajectory, and can be considered a semi-spike.
Mario’s A,A,A ground attack is faster than Doc’s. Luigi's is comparable to Mario's.
Luigi’s D-smash and n-air send the opponent up.
Mario's F-smash is fire and does weak damage if it's only Mario's hand that hits the opponent rather than the fire; Doc's electric glove F-smash doesn't need a sweetspot but thus has less range; Luigi's F-smash also has no sweetspot, but has less range than either of the others.
Mario can wall jump; Doc and Luigi can't.
Doc is the oddball in sex kicks; it's stronger the longer it's out.
Doc's cape doesn't help much in recovery.
The pills travel at a lower angle than Mario's fireballs. Luigi's fireballs travel horizontally. Mario's Fireballs go further than vitamins, which go further than Luigi's fireballs.
The Mario Tornado has hitboxes on the sides of his head at the fist, but the last hit is around his body. The Dr. Tornado has the same hitbox for the 1st hit (the rest are full-body). It also doesn't send him up quite as high and has a random trajectory angle. The Luigi Cyclone hits each character only once during the spinning portion and once at the end, and hits them upward in both cases.
Mario and Dr. Mario's moves have the same amount of frames. Their grabs actually look different, though.
Mario's Cape reaches outward more and ends up covering his whole front side and the top. Dr. Mario's Sheet hits a large area in front of him and ends up covering his whole body.

Credit to Wavedasher75, HydroKirby, and lord ichmael

Ganondorf vs. Captain Falcon

Wavedash length: Ganondorf’s is longer
Running speed: Captain Falcon is faster
Taunt length: Captain Falcon’s is shorter
Ganondorf’s aerial down B spikes, while Captain Falcon’s has an upward trajectory.
Ganondorf’s B has a longer start up lag and is stronger.
Captain Falcon’s f-air is strongest at the beginning of the animation and is sex-kick like.
Captain Falcon falls faster. Ganondorf is heavier.
Captain Falcon has a natural combo with his A,A,A, while Ganondorf doesn’t.
Captain Falcon has 3 hitboxes on his B move: 27% close, 25% mid, 23% tip. Ganon has one.
Falcon's u-tilt has a half second start-up time; Ganon's has the longest set startup time of any move in the game but is very powerful (not enough to make it worth using, though)

Credit to Wavedasher75 and lord ichmael

Marth vs. Roy

Wavedash length: Marth's is longer
Running speed: Marth is faster
Taunt length: Marth's is faster
Marth's sweetspot is at the very tip of his sword
Roy's sweetspot is at the center of his sword.
Marth is heavier than Roy.
Roy falls faster than Marth.
Marth's ground A attack comes out faster continuously than Roy's.
Roy's throws are stronger, but Marth can chain throw better.
Roy's up B is slower than Marth's but has multiple hits and can be aimed angularly to a certain extent.
Marth's d-air is a spike (not a meteor smash). Roy's d-air is a meteor at the hilt of his sword.
Roy's d-tilt sends the opponent up, while Marth's sends the opponent downwards.
Roy's U-smash has multiple hits and can "spike" if you hit with the tip of his sword.

Link vs. Young Link

Weight: Link is heavier
Wavedash length: Young Link’s is longer
Running speed: Young Link is faster
Taunt length: Link’s is faster (Both can taunt cancel, however. Throw a boomerang before you taunt).
Y. Link has a shorter hookshot.
Y. Link’s arrows have fire while Link’s shoot farther.
Both Links can aim their boomerangs diagonally, but Young Link’s differential is more noticeable.
Y. Link’s bombs do more damage.
Y. Link’s up B on the ground has multiple hits that suck the opponent in, while Link's hits once- the knockback depends on when you hit the opponent. Link's can spike.
Y. Link's F-smash has very little knockback on the first, lots on the second; Link's has knockback on both, more on the second.
Y. Link's Arrows do more damage uncharged, Link's do more charged
Y. Link's arrows charge faster.
Y. Link's d-air has a meteor at the hilt.
Y. Link's f-air goes 360 degrees around him, Links hits twice in the front.
Link's sword has more range.
Y. Link's bomb explosion pushes the opponent towards him, but Link sends them away like most other attacks. (Y. Link's is also smaller)
Y. Link can wall jump.
Y. Link's boomerang is stronger (only noticeable at close/medium range).
Credit to Wavedasher75, lord ichmael, and 7nitro7blazer7

Pikachu vs. Pichu

Both have the same terminal velocity.
Pikachu is slightly faster than Pichu.
Pichu is lighter than Pikachu.
Pichu is smaller.
Pichu can walljump.
Pichu's roll is longer than Pikachu's.
Pikachu's wavedash is longer than Pichu's.
Pikachu is slightly faster while running.
Pichu's up-B does 1% and then 3% to himself, goes slower and not as far, doesn't damage the opponent, and doesn't give him invincibility like Pikachu's does. Pikachu has more landing lag. Pichu's forward-B can charge up to 39% damage and goes further fully charged. Pikachu's takes less time to charge but does a maximum of 29% damage.
Pikachu's thunder hits foes away; Pichu's hits multiple times, sending them upward. Pikachu's thunder has fewer hits to it than Pichu's, but each does more damage and has greater knockback. Pikachu's thunder will travel past him in the air should the thunder not connect with him, but Pichu's fails to go a certain distance below Pichu.
Pichu hurts himself with all his B attacks (his down B will only hurt him if the thunder bolt actually makes contact with him), his f-smash, his d-air and f-air, his grab attack, and his F-throw.
Pikachu's d-smash is multiple hit, and launches the opponent. Pichu's is a single hit and sends the opponent horizontally, and in the opposite direction of that which Pichu is facing. They do equal damage.
Pikachu's f-smash has more range, and is a single hit. Pichu's is a multiple hit, with high initial knockback in the last hit.
Pikachu's u-smash is a full body twirl, which focuses ahead of him, barely affecting those behind him. Pichu's is a headsmash, which affects enemies on both sides equally. Pikachu’s is much stronger when sweetspotted.
Pikachu's u-air can hit it any direction depending on the timing and the position of the opponent. Pichu's always hits upward. Pikachu's has a larger hitbox.
Both taunts can be cancelled by any attack or their shield a few frames before they normally would.
Pichu has two variations of taunt, depending on whether he's facing left or right.
Pikachu has more lag on his aerials than Pichu, all of them.
And.. um.. for the record, Pichu flies higher when his shield breaks.

Thanks to lord ichmael, bobfungus, pictish freak, and Fett II for this list.

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=516492&topic=37242284
If you want to see the % damage differences, go there, but I don't want to list them as percent doesn't matter too much imo.

 

[Firestorm]

Double post, but whatever.

Yes I'd rather have YLink + Falco + Ganon + Doc + Roy + Pichu than Lucas + Wario. You place too much importance on the animations and not enough on the behaviour of the attacks.

Meta Knight even does not give an entirely new type of play. He has multiple jumps (like Kirby/Jigglypuff), with a sword (like Marth/Link/etc) and can glide (like Charizard). Every character takes elements from other characters.

 

[Steelicks]

clones suck. im steelicks and my opinion is more important than yours, so i win

 

[Steeler]

metaknight is a new type of play because no one can float, swordplay, and glide

regardless, that's a mighty post you have there. it's nice seeing what exactly these differences are but a lot of them are just...too insignificant for me. okay "this does more damage than the other" or "has more consecutive hits" doesn't change the manner and situations in which you use those moves, does it? i know the obvious falco's dair spikes and fox's is a drill kick means falco's going to use that move as a killer and fox isn't, moreso for combos.

maybe you can enlighten me

also, SORRy, i thought that when roy hits with his sweetspot with his fsmash or something, it's stronger than marth's sweetspot but i guess marth wins 9-1 lol

yes thank you steelicks you are great

there are too many fucking CLONES in melee okay. if all the characters from melee came back, unchanged, but they added like 20 brand spankin new characters (no new clones lol), then whatever, i'd be good. but there are guys that won't be coming back anyways, which should definitely be some of the clones imo.

i just don't enjoy clones

but it's okay firestorm

you can have your clones

i'll be over here partying with pokemon trainer and metaknight and pit and wario and all these COOL GUYS

 

[J-Man27]

If the 100 man brawl is back, do you think that is how Falco will be unlocked if he is in it?

 

[snecols]

but there are guys that won't be coming back anyways, which should definitely be some of the clones imo.

I hear this all the time, but I have no idea where it is coming from. Does anyone have a source for this other than the Dojo post insinuating that Ness is not returning? I'm not calling you a liar; it simply doesn't make any sense to me. No one was dropped from 64 to Melee. Why get into the habit now?

I absolutely hate it when fighting games drop characters from the roster. Someone out there is using the character; you already have the character made; why the fuck are you dropping it? Just keep it in for kicks. It's not hurting anyone. Did anyone play Street Fighter EX3? It had four less characters than the previous title. That series blew my mind for its reckless roster dropping. I will be more than a little disappointed if and when someone, even shitty ol' Pichu, gets the axe, as I can't think of any good reason for it.

 

[Steeler]

it was a translated manuscript of sakurai addressing emails...or something. sakurai stated not all characters will return. this was over a year ago though, so obviously things could change.

if anyone gets axed, i think it should be characters that are already pretty similar to someone else and not stuff like mewtwo, who's rumored to be cut. xP

 

[NESgamer]

I absolutely hate it when fighting games drop characters from the roster. Someone out there is using the character; you already have the character made; why the fuck are you dropping it? Just keep it in for kicks. It's not hurting anyone. Did anyone play Street Fighter EX3? It had four less characters than the previous title. That series blew my mind for its reckless roster dropping. I will be more than a little disappointed if and when someone, even shitty ol' Pichu, gets the axe, as I can't think of any good reason for it.

Well, i really agree with you, from the point of view of "add things don't take them away", i believe they could use the old roster plus a lot of newcomers. I only want Pichu out because is kinda useless, but the rest of the characters should stay. I don't think there is a sacrifice involved, like you must have only clones or originals,you can have both and i believe Sakurai tought about that too.

 

[Bioshock]

If they drop mewtwo then maybe they will add lucario instead. One of the sites posted here already mentioned that Lucario is very similar in style to mewtwo. (Although the site was apparently fake)

 

[Deck Knight]

hey! what happened to axem ranger black! :@

He's off with Geno in "Sakurai forget me" land.

 

[RonnyMcD]

Humanshaped pokemon are much easier for developers to handle in a fighting game. Partly the reason for Ivysaur looking kinda funky in the videos.

 

[J-Man27]

He is the only true quadreped in the Smash Bros series. Sure Pikachu and Pichu walk on all fours, but they stand up on two feet too.

 

[Yoshi King]

I fucking swear if Mewtwo is cut I will take a dump all over Sakurai, Lucario should not replace him whatsoever.

Regarding clones I wouldn't mind if iconic characters were to return (Young Link... Falco? Ganondorf will obviously have a new moveset nomatter what) but Dr. Mario is just balls, same with Roy. They better go.

I've been hearing rumours of a Brawl delay in North America which will SERIOUSLY piss me off if it comes to pass, especially considering the Japanese release date is still set. It's been on GoNintendo etc etc, what do you guys think?

 

[Sonuis]

I've been hearing rumours of a Brawl delay in North America which will SERIOUSLY piss me off if it comes to pass, especially considering the Japanese release date is still set. It's been on GoNintendo etc etc, what do you guys think?

I hear GoNintendo is... pretty unreliable.

 

[NESgamer]

I hear GoNintendo is... pretty unreliable.

At least the dojo has the same date for America, being the #1 source of information for the game that's good. Unless the delay is our next update...

 

[Sonuis]

I keep checking and all the Game Stores I know are still 2/10/08. Yeah. No information on a pre-order gift yet,

 

[Firestorm]

Go Nintendo posts everything from everywhere. I used to love using the site for Nintendo news but the amount of useless crap to wade through got too much for me.

Well, i really agree with you, from the point of view of "add things don't take them away", i believe they could use the old roster plus a lot of newcomers. I only want Pichu out because is kinda useless, but the rest of the characters should stay. I don't think there is a sacrifice involved, like you must have only clones or originals,you can have both and i believe Sakurai tought about that too.

That's hypocritical. There are people who like to play as Pichu. Pichu might as well be included for those people. Not like it's going to be completely overpowered and break the game.

metaknight is a new type of play because no one can float, swordplay, and glide

regardless, that's a mighty post you have there. it's nice seeing what exactly these differences are but a lot of them are just...too insignificant for me. okay "this does more damage than the other" or "has more consecutive hits" doesn't change the manner and situations in which you use those moves, does it? i know the obvious falco's dair spikes and fox's is a drill kick means falco's going to use that move as a killer and fox isn't, moreso for combos.

maybe you can enlighten me

...
Yes it does. That's the point I've been trying to get at this entire time. I will use Falco and Fox as they have the easiest to distinguish differences and are the most used characters in Melee. That and because there's a friggin' paragraph explaining they're different in the previous post.

Falco's lasers are a huge part of his game. Why? Because they stun. Due to this stun, he can pin down an enemy and approach by short hop lasering. This is the biggest part of Falco's game. Fox's lasers cannot stun. As a result, they are used for tacking on damage when Fox doesn't have anything else to do. It's a small and insignificant part of Fox's game.

Both Fox and Falco's shine (reflector) can be jumped out of and canelled on the first frame. Fox's shine sends opponents down at a 45 degree angle and a set distance no matter what damage percentage they're at. Due to this property and the fact that it can be cancelled immediately, Fox has a ton of different shine combos that mostly involve Fox moving around the opponent on the ground. Fox also likes to use this off the edge to spike characters. Fox can kill you at 0% with this move. It's a huge part of his game. It's also a huge part of Falco's game, but for entirely different reasons. Falco's shine sends you straight up. I think it also takes into account damage. Falco usually uses this, jumps out of it right away, and spikes the enemy back down with his down air, and continues the combo by fast falling down and doing an up-tilt or another shine (called pillaring).

Fox's up-smash is one of the best in the game. His up-air is probably the best in the game. Fox kills vertically quite a bit and as a result his best stages are those with low ceilings. Falco's up-air and up-smash aren't that great, but his forward smash is much better than Fox's. Falco's best stages are flat ones like Final Destination where the opponent can't escape his lasers as easily.

Of course, Falco's d-air and d-throw can spike. I think Fox's d-throw doesn't. The d-air spike is pretty important I guess as it's a big part of most of Falco's combos as is Fox's d-air drill kick thingy.

There's also the obvious stuff like Falco's crappier recovery, falling speed, jumping height, whatever else.

Fox is to Falco as Salamence is to Dragonite.

 

[Firestorm]

CAPTAIN OLIMAR MOTHER FUCKERS

 

[Cubed]

Wow...too bad the pictures won't show.

EDIT: There we go. Let's hope this will please the character-wanting people.

 

[CyzirVisheen]

YES