For some reason, I saw that one coming.
A Windmill that is actually moving or just look like one?
That actually sounds like fun. I should try and make one someday.
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Super Smash Brothers Brawl Discussion #3
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Thought I'd post this: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161546
From what I gather, Ikki from Japan compiles tourney results and forms a "weekly tier list". These aren't really tier lists in the true since of the word though, they're really just how each particular character fared in tourneys that week. Pretty interesting
From what I gather, Ikki from Japan compiles tourney results and forms a "weekly tier list". These aren't really tier lists in the true since of the word though, they're really just how each particular character fared in tourneys that week. Pretty interesting
That tier list makes no sense to me. Is Olimar supposed to be bad or Middle Tier or something?Thought I'd post this: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161546
From what I gather, Ikki from Japan compiles tourney results and forms a "weekly tier list". These aren't really tier lists in the true since of the word though, they're really just how each particular character fared in tourneys that week. Pretty interesting
Literal translation from later on in the same topic, which I think is accurate given the data:
Yay for Falco, boo for Sonic and PT, and a great big WTF to Snake (even though his spot is supposedly, being extremely contested). General signs point to the top 3 being ROB, MK, and either Falco or Snake as of right now.
Honestly, every Snake I've seen has completely and utterly fallen on it's ass, but I'm just going to take everyone else's word for it that you have to be extremely dedicated to him.
Uhh...but to answer your question, upper region of middle tier.
How does it not make sense? It's compiled completely on data.
Actually, I'm not surprised at all. R.O.B Snake, MK Wolf, Falco are all on there exactly like I expected.
Heh and which people thought Pit was going to be TOP? Crazy people.
Thunderhorse, you are online right now and so is 180 ROGER. Go fight his Snake and come back and see why he is top tier.
Actually, I'm not surprised at all. R.O.B Snake, MK Wolf, Falco are all on there exactly like I expected.
Heh and which people thought Pit was going to be TOP? Crazy people.
Thunderhorse, you are online right now and so is 180 ROGER. Go fight his Snake and come back and see why he is top tier.
Hey now, I thought Pit was going to be TOP as well, just due to that crazy recovery. :x
Then again, I also thought Wolf was going to be the best of the three Star Fox characters by far, but Falco, despite reported nerfs, seems to be stepping up for some reason or another :).
I know that, it's because I skimmed through it.
Anyways, I disagree with Zelda's placement.
Omg, how is Zelda so low? o_O She's like one of the best characters!
I don't honestly agree with Snake, PT, or Ness.
I'm unsure about Zelda; She's always been one of the easiest matchups for me.
Also, boo, Yoshi in bottom? :[
Though, it isnt a tier list, so I don't care too much.
I'm unsure about Zelda; She's always been one of the easiest matchups for me.
Also, boo, Yoshi in bottom? :[
Though, it isnt a tier list, so I don't care too much.
I thought wolf was going to be the best, too. I know that falco can chain grab his down throw on some characters up to like 45%, and if it brings them to the edge he can d-throw-->d-air for a spike, so that could be part of it.
I am very surprised by the low ranking of G&W and DDD; from my experience and what I've seen of them, I though that they would be higher. But I'm loving that IC's are pushing top tier.
Based on these tourney results, it's looking like Snake, ROB, Falco, and MK are the top tier. But then again, Japan and America never really shared the same tier list, even for melee after so many years, so I wouldn't be surprised if American tourney results turn out to be vastly different.
A big area made out of the standard blocks followed by Ice to look like tetris pieces falling into it.
A big coloum with a windmill on top actually :/
its not based on fact, its based on a small number of statistics from a small country.
also the dojo update today was awsome, great seeing back story on sse
the stats in america will be alot different.
it seems my foxxeh who i hoped wouldnt be high is high.
it seems my foxxeh who i hoped wouldnt be high is high.
The way they compiled that tier list is dumb, but some of it looks potential accurate. But seriously, using tourney results isn't, of course, a way to make a tier list. Yoshi could have potential to be higher up, but if no one is using him at tournaments (which only indicates preference, not how good/bad a character is) then he's not getting the rep he deserves.
Amazing update today. Thanks for reminding me about it.
Personally, I have more trouble with the other spacies than with wolf, but on the character discussion boards on Smashboards, a lot of people are having trouble countering him and stuff. I just dont feel it.
Falco has a better gun, I think. Interrupts, and travels the whole screen. Fox's isnt terrible, but it has a limit to how far it goes, and no knockback.
Though, Wolf does back a punch with his smashes, and can eat a lot more damage than Fox or Falco. Plus two recovery options (they both sorta suck.)
Those who win make the rules and everyone else follows ?___?
Yoshiking, I swear, you better stick with the cute dinogon :o
Personally, I have more trouble with the other spacies than with wolf, but on the character discussion boards on Smashboards, a lot of people are having trouble countering him and stuff. I just dont feel it.
Falco has a better gun, I think. Interrupts, and travels the whole screen. Fox's isnt terrible, but it has a limit to how far it goes, and no knockback.
Though, Wolf does back a punch with his smashes, and can eat a lot more damage than Fox or Falco. Plus two recovery options (they both sorta suck.)
Those who win make the rules and everyone else follows ?___?
Yoshiking, I swear, you better stick with the cute dinogon :o
Speaking of created stages I made one in this video, it's basically a walljumping stage
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hkJQniIe4XY
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hkJQniIe4XY
lol that's just CRUEL. Especially with poor Lucas there, quite possibly the worst character for a place like that. I imagine me and my sisters would have the upper hand in fights there, since I use Pikachu, who's gained wall jumps, and my sisters use Peach (can she still stall like the reason nobody liked Fourside in Melee?) and Zelda (who could turn into Sheik and wall jump).
That'd be BRUTAL for when all three of us gang up on a CPU. I'll need to set that up when we (eventually) get it.
Guyyyyyys! What I posted was NOT a true tier list!!! All Ikki is doing here is ranking the characters based on how they performed in tourneys in Japan that week! All it is is an interesting insight into how the metagame is developing and how certain characters are performing in that community. This kind of raw info is one of the things a tier list would be based on. It's really just food for thought/discussion.
To avoid any more confusion I'll just post the weekly "tier lists" here:
4/3/08 [^/v (up/down) denotes movement from last week's list]
S. Snake, ROB, Falco, MK, Wolf(^), ICs(^^^)
A. Fox(v), Marth(^), Diddy(v), G&W(vvv), Toon(v), Pikachu(v), Bowser (^^^)
B. Ike(^^^^^), Lucas(^), Zelda(^^^^^), Sheik(v), DDD(^), Peach(^^^^^), Pit(vvvvv), Zamus(vvv), Samus(^^^), Wario
C. Olimar (vvv), Mario (vvv), Luigi(vvv), Kirby(vvv), DK(^^^), Lucario(vvv), Yoshi (^^^), Ness(vvv)
D. PT(^^^), Sonic(v), Link(vvv), CF(v), Ganon (^), Jiggs (v)
3/29/08
S. Snake, ROB, Falco, MK
A. Fox
B. G&W, Diddy, Toon Link, Pit, Marth
C. ICs, Wolf, Olimar, Zamus, Pikachu, Mario, Lucas
D. Kirby, Sheik, Dedede, Luigi, Lucario, Wario
E. Bowser, Samus, Zelda, Ness, Peach, Link
F. Ike, Sonic, DK, CF, Jiggs, PT, Yoshi
G. Ganon
3/22/08
S. Snake, Rob
A. Falco, MK
B. G&W, Diddy, Toon Link, Pit, Fox, Marth
C. ICs, Wolf, Olimar, ZeroSamus, Pikachu, Mario, Lucas
D. Kirby, Sheik, Dedede, Luigi, Lucario, Wario
E. Bowser, Samus, Zelda, Ness, Peach, Link
F. Ike, Sonic, DK, CF, Jiggs, PT, Yoshi
G. Ganon
3/19/08
S. MK, Falco, Rob, Fox, Snake
A. Marth, Pit, Toon
B. Wolf, G&W, Diddy, Mario, ICs, Zamus
C. Pikachu, Luigi, Kirby, Dedede, Wario, Lucario, Lucas, Olimar
D. Peach, Samus, Sheik, Ness, Jiggs, PT, DK, Bowser
E. Link, Ike, Zelda, Sonic
F. CF
G. Ganon, Yoshi
So! Any thoughts on these results? ^^
I'm not sure if that is an actual tier list or just tourney results, but regardless it was posted on 2/26/08, so it's probably outdated.
You're probably right. Since these lists are based on how their community performs with certain characters I wouldn't be surprised at all to see differences elsewhere.
To avoid any more confusion I'll just post the weekly "tier lists" here:
4/3/08 [^/v (up/down) denotes movement from last week's list]
S. Snake, ROB, Falco, MK, Wolf(^), ICs(^^^)
A. Fox(v), Marth(^), Diddy(v), G&W(vvv), Toon(v), Pikachu(v), Bowser (^^^)
B. Ike(^^^^^), Lucas(^), Zelda(^^^^^), Sheik(v), DDD(^), Peach(^^^^^), Pit(vvvvv), Zamus(vvv), Samus(^^^), Wario
C. Olimar (vvv), Mario (vvv), Luigi(vvv), Kirby(vvv), DK(^^^), Lucario(vvv), Yoshi (^^^), Ness(vvv)
D. PT(^^^), Sonic(v), Link(vvv), CF(v), Ganon (^), Jiggs (v)
3/29/08
S. Snake, ROB, Falco, MK
A. Fox
B. G&W, Diddy, Toon Link, Pit, Marth
C. ICs, Wolf, Olimar, Zamus, Pikachu, Mario, Lucas
D. Kirby, Sheik, Dedede, Luigi, Lucario, Wario
E. Bowser, Samus, Zelda, Ness, Peach, Link
F. Ike, Sonic, DK, CF, Jiggs, PT, Yoshi
G. Ganon
3/22/08
S. Snake, Rob
A. Falco, MK
B. G&W, Diddy, Toon Link, Pit, Fox, Marth
C. ICs, Wolf, Olimar, ZeroSamus, Pikachu, Mario, Lucas
D. Kirby, Sheik, Dedede, Luigi, Lucario, Wario
E. Bowser, Samus, Zelda, Ness, Peach, Link
F. Ike, Sonic, DK, CF, Jiggs, PT, Yoshi
G. Ganon
3/19/08
S. MK, Falco, Rob, Fox, Snake
A. Marth, Pit, Toon
B. Wolf, G&W, Diddy, Mario, ICs, Zamus
C. Pikachu, Luigi, Kirby, Dedede, Wario, Lucario, Lucas, Olimar
D. Peach, Samus, Sheik, Ness, Jiggs, PT, DK, Bowser
E. Link, Ike, Zelda, Sonic
F. CF
G. Ganon, Yoshi
So! Any thoughts on these results? ^^
Believe it or not, this that is exactly how the tier list is created. In pokemon we define the standard tier, Over Used, based mostly on usage (hence the name). However it is difficult to analyze a pokemon's individual usefulness in a battle since the game is played with a team of six pokes. SSB can take it a step further and analyze a character based on what characters they win or lose against and by how much. The "preference" you mention is extremely relevant, since (presumably) players will only use a character that they feel they have a good chance to win with--Iif more people started using yoshi, then it's certainly possible he would move up, but nobody uses him because he sucks. When Ice Climbers jumped from low-mid tier to high tier after melee had been out for like six years, it wasn't because IC's somehow got stronger, it's because Chu and Wobbles and Azn Lep started doing well with them at tourneys. Whether this was based on some new AT or playstyle I have no idea, but that is completely irrelevant , since that new AT or playstyle is in no way quantifiable in terms of tiers. The only measurable way to define SSB tiers is tournament performance, since it can take into account changes in the metagame.
If you scroll down a bit from the OP, one of the users mentions that the Japanese tier list has sheik and Dr. Mario as top, because Japanese people (apparently genetically lol) are really good at sheik's playstyle, and Dr. Mario can counter sheik. This is exactly how tiers work, and it is similar to Sheik's rise on the American tier list in melee once people realized she has a favorable matchup against marth. Similarly to pokemon, there is no way to base the list on perceived overall power (Deoxys-S is a great example of this); however tourney performance is a direct derivative of power and is more useful for a changing metagame.
Um, what? Using tournament results is the only way to make a tier list. Tournament results will naturally converge over time to show the best characters, as people who want to win and do win naturally gravitate towards the characters that are the most capable of winning. Which is what a tier list represents.Umby said:
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