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As outlined in our previous announcement of quickbanning Mega Pinsir and Baxcalibur, we have decided to suspect test Weavile!
Thanks to its high attack stat and incredible speed, as well as its amazing offensive dual STAB, including access to the amazing STAB Knock Off and a powerful Ice STAB in Triple Axel, Choice Band is an extremely scary wallbreaker to face due to its STABs being very powerful and Knock Off taking a Pokemon’s often crucial held item. Additionally, Swords Dance is a terrifying late game sweeper that can negate several revenge killers as checks with a +2 Ice Shard, especially with Tera Ice, and is able to get plenty of setup opportunities due to the number of switches it forces due to all of the crucial Pokemon Weavile can hit super effectively with its STABs.
This means Weavile has a very limited list of viable defensive checks, the ones that can handle the most common non-lure sets and their Teras consisting almost entirely of Tapu Fini, Mega Gyarados, Rocky Helmet Buzzwole and Dondozo, Dondozo struggling to fit on anything but really bulky teams, Tapu Fini and Mega Gyarados having no reliable recovery, the former even getting worn down quickly from checking multiple prominent meta threats and losing to Tera Electric Tera Blast and Poison anyways, while the latter needs to be healthy in order to set up and attempt to sweep late game, and Buzzwole being able to lose its Rocky Helmet to a first Knock Off before being overwhelmed by a Tera Ice Triple Axel it cannot punish later. Other more inconsistent checks exist but either lose to Tera Ice or some Tera lure such as Poison or Fighting.
This only really leaves answering it either by defensive Teras, putting you at an immediate disadvantage in the Tera game if Weavile has no need to Tera (which it often doesn’t), hoping to tank one hit and KO back, or offensively, which is a hard when Weavile is only outsped by scarfers and the niche Mega Aerodactyl. This is before considering Ice Shard, especially against Mega Aerodactyl, and especially from Swords Dance, which can be boosted by Tera Ice and turn into a terrifying priority sweeper, as if being faster than the vast majority of the meta and having its STABs with a +2 wasn’t enough. These strengths more than outweigh its lack of defensive utility and have earned it a suspect test.
Suspect Test Information
Reading this is mandatory to participate in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 79 with at least 40 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 79 GXE, down to a minimum of 20 games at a GXE of 83. Also, needing more than 40 games to reach 79 GXE will suffice.
GXE
minimum games
79
40
79.2
39
79.4
38
79.6
37
79.8
36
80
35
80.2
34
80.4
33
80.6
32
80.8
31
81
30
81.2
29
81.4
28
81.6
27
81.8
26
82
25
82.2
24
82.4
23
82.6
22
82.8
21
83
20
You must use a fresh account that begins with the given prefix for this suspect test. That prefix is NDUU9WVLE. For example, I could signup and qualify with the name NDUU9WVLE Niadev.
You may not impersonate or mock another user with your account name. If there is any slight hesitation, you're probably better off picking a different name. We reserve the right to null your voting requisites if you are found impersonating or mocking another user with your account name. Moderator discretion will be applied.
If you are found trying to manipulate voting requisites in any way, you will be met with a harsh infraction. Manipulating voting requisites ranges from faking your screenshot to asking another user to forfeit.
The Pokemon that's being suspect tested, Weavile, will be allowed on the National Dex UU ladder for the next two weeks so that we can properly assess its position in the metagame.
This suspect test will go on for two weeks. It will last until April the 24th at 11:59 PM GMT+1.
So this mon isn't healthy at all lmao, why is this mon even being suspected as opposed to being quickbanned?
The original post said it way better than me: Exceptional offensive STABs with access to Swords Dance to hit like a truck, IN ADDITION to tera in order to further boost itself to hit obscenely hard.
It's only "check" in my opinion, is Scarf Tapu Fini. Granted, that's not difficult at all to slot on teams but forcing that on nearly every non-HO or Stall build to beat weavile is insanely warping on teambuilding. And that's not even taking into account that Fini STILL has to tip-toe around Weavile. It can't afford to switch into a Knock Off and lose its Scarf, so you still need to sacrifice something in order to get in Fini safely.
These other checks seem fine on paper no? In reality it couldn't be far from the truth. Buzzwole can't afford lose it's Rocky Helmet to Weaviles Knock Off, because then it'd have no way to punish Weavile's Triple Axel resulting in it being unable to switch into it without being 2HKO'd. Fini, as the OP stated, has no recovery unless its Z-Haze (but then again you're running Z-Haze solely to reliably check Weavile, hmm very healthy mon methinks). Skarmory is similar to Buzzwole in that it can't switch into Triple Axel if it's Helmet is knocked off. Gyarados-Mega is a decent offensive check ig. But like Fini, it has no recovery to so its switch ins are limited. Dondozo is a great check since it has Unaware and can scale it Curse, even viably runs Rest so it's a very good answer to Weavile. The issue is that Dondozo only really fits on Stall, and using it on other playstyles is very hard to do without your team turning into a fat team or semi stall. Again if we need to turn to such extreme measures, what does that say about Weavile's impact on the metagame?
"Oh but Runo silly, why not just Tera into a resisted type? Mons like Buzzwole and Clefable commonly run Tera Steel to beat Weavile."
If you are burning your Tera to beat Weavile, THAT SHOULD BE A MAJOR RED FLAG. Because more often than not, Weavile doesn't even need to Tera while YOU do. So you're already at a major disadvantage. And if Weavile decides to Tera into something like Poison or Electric, against the checks above, then you just flat-out lose the 1v1. Everything but Buzzwole loses HARD to Tera Electric and then god forbid Buzzwole meets a Tera Poison variant, because it just turns into setup fodder.
So yeah, I don't like Weavile here. I actually hate it. It needs to go, so I'm 100% voting ban.
/ mon is still broken
----- - get this mon off the ladder right now, its not even legal. Seriously this mon being "allowed" is an open secret and nobody is doing anything about it. This glitch is now fixed
Does Weavile have any reliable check? It seems like whatever check it has depends on its set, which it can muscle past with tera anyway
SD sets destroys everything except Unaware mons. And Dondozo can't handle Choice Band set if Weavile goes tera electric (aside from the fact that Dondozo is mostly a stall mon and useless for most teams)
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Electric Weavile Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 242-288 (48 - 57.1%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO
Choice Scarf Tapu Fini appears to be a decent check, but knock off exists and weavile isn't the only mon that learns knock off. Tera Poison Weavile can turn the tables against Fini
0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Poison Weavile: 56-66 (19.9 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO
As an avid ladder player but with zero tournament experience, I'm commenting solely from my experiences playing mainly stall on ladder, so take this with a grain of salt
For starters, Weavile doesn't have any true defensive counters. Here are some calcs:
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Dark Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 170-202 (50.8 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Dark Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 196-232 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Dark Weavile switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 328-386 (46.5 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
A well played Weavile obliterates most stall teams. And if Weavile can break stall walls almost singlehandedly, then it most certainly can break weaker defensive mons seen on Balance and BO:
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 216 Def Tapu Fini: 102-123 (29.6 - 35.7%) -- approx. 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Buzzwole: 174-207 (41.6 - 49.5%) -- approx. 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 164 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 198-234 (51.8 - 61.2%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 237-282 (61.7 - 73.4%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Of course, these calcs all assume that Weavile is CB and is already on the field. However, they should how ridiculously hard it is to switch into Weavile, and this is without considering Rocks and the fact that Weavile can be HDB or a Z Move. With HDB, Weavile becomes an insanely reliable threat against Balance, Knocking literally everything that can be and sweeping late game, and Z Moves or Tera Options as others have mentioned make Weavile pretty much unwallable. However, I do want to note some flaws that Weavile has.
Despite being an incredibly powerful attacker, Weavile is very frail. Now its not as frail as another fast physical attacker that is bad (sorry Bee, love ya but your trash), but it still can't really switch into much, even Gliscor as it fears getting U-Turned on. However, being Dark Ice with its decent Spdef lets it switch into stuff like Blace locked into Shadow Ball and Kyu. Additionally, with insanely good pivots like Gliscor and Treads, getting Weavile onto the field (with Rocks gone thanks to Defog/Spin provided by the same mons) isn't the hardest thing in the world.
Now one thing to mention: I don't think Defensive Tera is indicative of a mons health in the metagame. Tera is simply another resource to use that can be used well offensively or defensively to break a mon at the right time or to stop a game-ending threat. HOWEVER, the fact that Weavile can usually bypass defensive Tera through sheer force IS indicative of an unhealthy mon.
Given Weavile's absurd strength, versatility to bypass its own checks, and speed tier which outspeeds all viable non-scarfers, its probably too good for UU.
I’d like to clarify this before quickly stating my opinion, this is being done purely for the process of more permanently removing weavile at this point in the meta, since it still could be reasoned that it can be dealt with (which is also very provably false), and it’s been a while since the tier came out, so just to make it certain with no chance of it dropping even if Tera does eventually get banned from OU*, to try and maintain stability as other things drop from OU.
As for weavile itself, everything said above basically sums up weavile, nothing outspeeds this thing since zeraora and manectric are really not that great right now. Mega aero is also obviously weak to ice shard. Scizor is a great Mon in the meta atm but you could just Tera to any type and now scizor just dies. Any check you have is probably dead to one of its infinite sets, so there’s no way to prepare, just hope with like a helmet Clefable.
*please for the love of god ban Tera I am at my fucking limit trying to deal with it in UU.
I’d like to clarify this before quickly stating my opinion, this is being done purely for the process of more permanently removing weavile at this point in the meta, since it still could be reasoned that it can be dealt with (which is also very provably false), and it’s been a while since the tier came out, so just to make it certain with no chance of it dropping even if Tera does eventually get banned from OU*, to try and maintain stability as other things drop from OU.
As for weavile itself, everything said above basically sums up weavile, nothing outspeeds this thing since zeraora and manectric are really not that great right now. Mega aero is also obviously weak to ice shard. Scizor is a great Mon in the meta atm but you could just Tera to any type and now scizor just dies. Any check you have is probably dead to one of its infinite sets, so there’s no way to prepare, just hope with like a helmet Clefable.
*please for the love of god ban Tera I am at my fucking limit trying to deal with it in UU.
I intend to participate in the coming suspect test with the intention of adamantly voting No Ban on Weavile. For the health of the tier I would recommend any participants to vote No Ban as well.
I am a Weavile user. I would have used it regardless of whether Terastalization was in or not. It's fast, strong, and has great utility and revenge killing potential in knock off, pursuit, and ice shard, the power of which can't be replicated by any other in the tier.
But do these traits truly warrant a supposed "overdominance in UU?"
I argue it does not, because Weavile does not possess the natural bulk or sweeping potential of the previous bans in Kommoo, Baxcalibur, or Pinsir, and its utility is necessary for checking the dominance of stall in the current metagame.
1. Gameplay Loop
As a Weavile user, let me tell you exactly how a gameplay loop goes.
If there are hazards up, i'm definitely not switching Weavile in unless one of my teammates Faints and it requires a revenge killer.
Otherwise, I need to use Defog and U-Turns repeatedly to fix a safe chance. Which often puts me at risk in a tier so centered on hyper offense.
In any case, when it's in, i'll tell you what I end up doing first thing almost every time.
I swap it right back out.
Until the opponent reveals their terastalization it's just too dangerous to go for an attack or to setup swords dance.
My Weavile is a total Glass Cannon. All it takes is a good priority move, a surprise terastalization, MGyara abusing its forced swap, the very existence of Fini and Buzzwole, or one of the numerous body press users from Dozo to Skarm to catch me on the surprise.
It's a myth that Weavile can just kill whoever it wants, it's all down to good reading and slowly whittling down their team before Weavile can actually land dents. And even then, getting it on the field without it dying after 1 attack is an incredibly difficult endeavor.
This isn't some rampaging dragon ripping through the tier. It's just being clever and opportunistic with it.
2. Buffing Stall
Among the top 10 pokemon by usage, there's Skarmory, Dondozo, Sableye, Clefable, Skarmory, Tangrowth, Gliscor, and Chansey. All among the Top 10. All of which are huge defensive assets. Meanwhile Weavile, sitting at #35 in usage, yet being capable of wallbreaking this archetype, is being punished?
As of April 18, 2023. The top #1 and #2 accounts are hard stall. Yet, You would propose a ban on one of the most effective ways to end the stalemates they generate? He's even here in this thread complaining about how it ruins his hard stall team.
I needed a powerful attacker that could revenge kill and pursuit trap vulnerable Stallmons. Admittedly, Weavile often needs its Terastalizations and good prediction to do real damage, considering these stall teams run pokemon like Clefable, Buzzwole, and Mega Sableye. But I think Weavile's ability to sneak out a good kill to punish your own loss doesn't warrant a punishment.
Now that I think about it, if Weavile is banned, I will probably run my own stall team.
I urge you all to give Weavile more time, and carefully observe the Weavile gameplay loop. It has its place in the metagame, arguably as a better revenge killer than sweeper, but teams that are prepared for Weavile and regularly run faster and bulkier threats should have no trouble checking it.
For these reasons, in the coming suspect test, I insist on voting No Ban, and to protect the sneaky Weavile.
Addendum: I have a replay with Weavile having game impact to share. I think if we're going to discuss how well Weavile does in the tier we should be using these as a frame of reference.
-I deploy Weavile early game against the opponent's Gliscor, baiting out the terastalization as it was intended. Though from the battle it did not seem to matter, it also meant that the Iron Hands could not Terastalize into a flying type or the Iron Moth into a Grass type. Both of which would have hurt my Gliscor and Dondozo respectively.
-It was Mega Beedrill at the end that made using Weavile freely an impossibility. It required a clutch DBond to execute the cleanup.
-Yes, the replay shows how powerful Weavile is against a softened team. But I had to maneuver the team into those weaknesses to actually do damage.
Note that this is a huge exception, as most of my saved NDUU replays have Weavile doing squat.
I intend to participate in the coming suspect test with the intention of adamantly voting No Ban on Weavile. For the health of the tier I would recommend any participants to vote No Ban as well.
I am a Weavile user. I would have used it regardless of whether Terastalization was in or not. It's fast, strong, and has great utility and revenge killing potential in knock off, pursuit, and ice shard, the power of which can't be replicated by any other in the tier.
But do these traits truly warrant a supposed "overdominance in UU?"
I argue it does not, because Weavile does not possess the natural bulk or sweeping potential of the previous bans in Kommoo, Baxcalibur, or Pinsir, and its utility is necessary for checking the dominance of stall in the current metagame.
1. Gameplay Loop
As a Weavile user, let me tell you exactly how a gameplay loop goes.
If there are hazards up, i'm definitely not switching Weavile in unless one of my teammates Faints and it requires a revenge killer.
Otherwise, I need to use Defog and U-Turns repeatedly to fix a safe chance. Which often puts me at risk in a tier so centered on hyper offense.
In any case, when it's in, i'll tell you what I end up doing first thing almost every time.
I swap it right back out.
Until the opponent reveals their terastalization it's just too dangerous to go for an attack or to setup swords dance.
My Weavile is a total Glass Cannon. All it takes is a good priority move, a surprise terastalization, MGyara abusing its forced swap, the very existence of Fini and Buzzwole, or one of the numerous body press users from Dozo to Skarm to catch me on the surprise.
It's a myth that Weavile can just kill whoever it wants, it's all down to good reading and slowly whittling down their team before Weavile can actually land dents. And even then, getting it on the field without it dying after 1 attack is an incredibly difficult endeavor.
This isn't some rampaging dragon ripping through the tier. It's just being clever and opportunistic with it.
2. Buffing Stall
Among the top 10 pokemon by usage, there's Skarmory, Dondozo, Sableye, Clefable, Skarmory, Tangrowth, Gliscor, and Chansey. All among the Top 10. All of which are huge defensive assets. Meanwhile Weavile, sitting at #35 in usage, yet being capable of wallbreaking this archetype, is being punished?
As of April 18, 2023. The top #1 and #2 accounts are hard stall. Yet, You would propose a ban on one of the most effective ways to end the stalemates they generate? He's even here in this thread complaining about how it ruins his hard stall team.
I needed a powerful attacker that could revenge kill and pursuit trap vulnerable Stallmons. Admittedly, Weavile often needs its Terastalizations and good prediction to do real damage, considering these stall teams run pokemon like Clefable, Buzzwole, and Mega Sableye. But I think Weavile's ability to sneak out a good kill to punish your own loss doesn't warrant a punishment.
Now that I think about it, if Weavile is banned, I will probably run my own stall team.
I urge you all to give Weavile more time, and carefully observe the Weavile gameplay loop. It has its place in the metagame, arguably as a better revenge killer than sweeper, but teams that are prepared for Weavile and regularly run faster and bulkier threats should have no trouble checking it.
For these reasons, in the coming suspect test, I insist on voting No Ban, and to protect the sneaky Weavile.
Addendum: I have a replay with Weavile having game impact to share. I think if we're going to discuss how well Weavile does in the tier we should be using these as a frame of reference.
-I deploy Weavile early game against the opponent's Gliscor, baiting out the terastalization as it was intended. Though from the battle it did not seem to matter, it also meant that the Iron Hands could not Terastalize into a flying type or the Iron Moth into a Grass type. Both of which would have hurt my Gliscor and Dondozo respectively.
-It was Mega Beedrill at the end that made using Weavile freely an impossibility. It required a clutch DBond to execute the cleanup.
-Yes, the replay shows how powerful Weavile is against a softened team. But I had to maneuver the team into those weaknesses to actually do damage.
Note that this is a huge exception, as most of my saved NDUU replays have Weavile doing squat.
So you write an essay on why weavile is healthy for the tier, and then show us a replay where despite the opponent tera watering gliscor turn one, which is one of the hardest weavile “counters” out there, weavile still breaks through that and wins the game? So apparently you have tons of replays where weavile doesn’t do anything, but you refuse to show us any of those, and instead show us a replay that basically counters your argument by itself.
I originally didn’t plan on making a post here, but I can not stand the spread of blatant misinformation and another vote in our tier that goes the wrong way. You say that banning weavile makes stall better, yet stall is probably the archetype that weavile struggles the most against, as dondozo is on every single stall team, and alomomola, helmet skarmory, tera water gliscor also exist to really annoy weavile. The best weavile can do against stall is knock the dondozo and force progress by pursuiting chansey/blissey. Tapu fini that you would find on balance and bulky offense looks fairly pedestrian compared to these checks, as once its lefties are knocked, it dies really quickly to triple axels. On ho, weavile certainly does not like mega gyarados, but it absolutely destroys everything else, from the sash lead excadrills and ribombees to the dragon dance salamences and celesteelas to the mons that think it can set up on weavile like blaziken but then get ohkod by tera ice triple axel. Grimmsnarl can’t parting shot against it so its forced to run spirit break instead of twave, thus opening the team to other sweeping threats like blaziken or poltergeist. Therefore, gyarados is forced to lead whenever an opposing weavile appears in team preview, and has to mega immediately in fear of getting destroyed by -1 triple axel. This leaves it unable to intimidate for the rest of the game, so that the next time it switches in, it gets 2hkoed by tera ice triple axel (yes, the bulkiest ice resist on ho still gets 2hkod).
As for switchin opportunities, the hazard control in this tier is actually really good right now with defog gliscor shutting down nearly all rockers and mega sableye being an annoying prick. Speaking of gliscor, it also packs uturn so it can bring in weavile for free, and many other pivots such as glowking can do so as well. As an aggressive player, I often find myself doubling into weavile on blisseys and tyranitars to make progress, or switching weavile in on resisted attacks such as kyurem’s freeze dry. While weavile may not be as easy to get in as your average mon, I believe that it is far too rewarding once you can do so, and therefore I will be voting ban, and implore everyone else to do so as well.
Alright, now that you've begun to argue in bad faith, I'd like to remind everyone that voting No Ban on a broken element of the metagame because you speculate a certain playstyle will become too strong, is not a reason to do so and is laid out in Smogon policy clearly. Who's to say that you can't remove the other broken elements of the metagame after you remove this broken element, broken should not check broken.
Either way, the foregone conclusion you've come to while stating that the #1 and #2 teams on ladder on stall, are kind of just results of ladder not running the appropriate things to handle stall, which is ludicrously easy to do, but not for your average ladder player who may or may not know much about the metagame. Mega Sableye is on our radar, but banning Weavile does absolutely nothing to affect stall, and the replay you provide is frankly hilarious seeing as it's just the opposite of your point, since stall prepares for Weavile explicitly anyway but still somehow fails to handle it. Pursuit trapping still exists with Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar, so most stuff won't change about those pursuit cores. If stall does become a problem, Mega Sableye will be the first to go, but right now there are bigger things running around to worry about.
I am confused. I tell people I don't want to ban it and I get harsh comments. I tell people I changed my mind and want to ban it and I still get harsh comments. What am I supposed to do to satisfy the discussion?
I'd like to remind everyone that voting No Ban on a broken element of the metagame because you speculate a certain playstyle will become too strong, is not a reason to do so and is laid out in Smogon policy clearly. Who's to say that you can't remove the other broken elements of the metagame after you remove this broken element, broken should not check broken.
That's a subjective point of view to describe a pokemon as supposedly broken whilst there are people in the discussion who do not think said pokemon is broken.
There are countless examples of in the history of Smogon where checks to top tier pokemon become popular, and only that purpose makes it a popular choice: Mandibuzz when Aegislash is meta or Magneton/Zone when Skarmory is meta. More on the history of Smogon, there are pokemon which are allowed to run rampant in a tier in order to prevent the tier from becoming more passive, most infamously Snorlax being allowed in Gen2 OU as an offensive alternative to the passive Blissey.
the replay you provide is frankly hilarious seeing as it's just the opposite of your point, since stall prepares for Weavile explicitly anyway but still somehow fails to handle it. Pursuit trapping still exists with Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar, so most stuff won't change about those pursuit cores. If stall does become a problem, Mega Sableye will be the first to go, but right now there are bigger things running around to worry about.
Yes, I get it. I added it because it's a replay featuring Weavile. I don't have other replays where Weavile does anything. If it's doing anything at earlier stages than late game, it's because I'm losing.
I did it in a gesture of goodwill for the discussion. I want more replays of Weavile being a pestilence to the tier, and I want the discussion to be around these replays. This decision has been thrown back at me twice now, and I am already regretting it.
My username's Professor Hal, all my replays for NDUU should be public if you really want to use my battling experience as the primary source.
I don't have any strong feelings on Weavile because I haven't had time to play UU recently. However, here's a post with general thoughts on what has been said above.
Runoisch's post on Weavile is a pretty good read and I think it should be at the core of the discussion moving forward - regardless if you're pro-ban or anti-ban. It provides a nice scope for discussion and the checks he listed do serve as a nice springboard for ideas.
I agree with riceman but I'm a lot more casual about it. I don't like spearheading campaigns for bans, because if you get the reqs imho you have earned the right to do whatever you want. You can vote ban, no ban, abstain or go comatose.
I didn't intend to write an essay but I guess nature took its course. Consider this less an argument and more an adventure where we make fantastical, magical pixie friends along the way (like National Dex RU).
That's a subjective point of view to describe a pokemon as supposedly broken whilst there are people in the discussion who do not think said pokemon is broken.
That is true but keep in mind there are individuals who see anything as being fine. There was 1 person in BW OU who saw Darkrai as a non-banworthy threat, 2 people who voted not to ban Deoxys-Attack and 11 who opted for no ban on Deoxys-Normal. Not to mention that in the same thread, Shadow Tag was voted not to be banned. Ultimately even absurd threats can be subjectively interpreted as non-broken but I would reckon that anyone in hindsight would see everything that I just listed as being unsuitable for any OU metagame.
I'll give you a more modern, Nat Dex example from my own perspective. Unfortunately, I will now discuss Nat Dex RU in extraordinary depth. I found the Lati Twins, Dondozo, Iron Hands and Jirachi to be tentatively healthy metagame presences at one point or another in Gen 9 National Dex RU. Obviously, I realised that some of these opinions were inaccurate after some point and this can be seen through my votes - with the exception of Jirachi. However, there is another side to this story. I went into examining these threats with a limited perspective that was half-fixated on the metagame beforehand. In a metagame with Garganacl (especially Tera Fairy Garg), the Lati twins were unable to make the same progress that they made afterwards. Iron Hands and Dondozo had tough competition on offence and were thus side-lined to more defensive sets and niches. I mention tentatively because there was an expectation that these threats would be problematic at some point. Specs Latios' Draco Meteors are always going to be difficult to switch into but in a metagame where Latios is dissuaded from clicking it, it becomes far less of an issue.
It is important to recognise that whilst what is good and what is broken is a matter of subjectivity because the metagame is prone to trends and shifts - as demonstrated above. So I do agree that Smogon Tiering (on some level) is subjective. However, there are metrics that can help ground analyses and provide clarity in forming these subjective opinions. You brought one of them up which is usage stats. Usage stats can provide insights into whether or not something is constraining teambuilding, however, it is rare that high usage = broken. Replays against competent players (usually tour replays) are also valuable but I can forgive you for using a ladder replay - even though replays are very dodgy for non-Nat Dex OU tiers. I'm not sure why you would say that something being carefully manoeuvred is a sign that it is not broken. Generally speaking, you want your win condition to be as healthy as possible and if anything the replay just proves to me that you outplayed your opponent who had a very lacklustre team. I generally like damage calcs since it quantifies both the damage dealt and the damage received. While it is true that you have to take calculations with a pinch of salt, it provides a solid framework that people can generally agree upon for determining how strong Weavile is and what can (feasibly) answer it. If you find something that works as a check (say Jellicent for Curse/Body Press/Wave Crash Dondozo, Tinkaton for Weavile or Dondozo for Blaziken), it would help to compare it with the mainstays of the metagame using the Viability Rankings. Completing the example: Jellicent does wall Dondozo but it is a free entry point for vicious threats such as Kyurem, Tinkaton can check Latios but it faces tough competition for its various roles with other stronger Pokemon and Dondozo is as good a wall as you can get for Blaziken as it matches up very well compared to significant portions of the metagame. It's sort of like law - even though how we define constitutional terms, laws and legal precedents is ultimately subject to legal interpretations, there are agreed-upon metrics that guide legal discussions.
Not really a metric but argumentations with premises flowing from one another and a conclusion are a nice way to structure things and make them logical. If you read certain papers, they even break it down into p1, p2, p3... c1, etc.
I don't follow this formatting because I'm not a nerd. Also, someone made a post like that on some SS NU thread and I almost puked my guts out.
There are countless examples of in the history of Smogon where checks to top tier Pokemon become popular, and only that purpose makes it a popular choice: Mandibuzz when Aegislash is meta or Magneton/Zone when Skarmory is meta. More on the history of Smogon, there are pokemon which are allowed to run rampant in a tier in order to prevent the tier from becoming more passive, most infamously Snorlax being allowed in Gen2 OU as an offensive alternative to the passive Blissey.
I don't disagree with this line of logic but I will oppose it on two fronts: 1) inapplicability to Weavile/the discussion 2) poor choices of example
> Who's to say that you can't remove the other broken elements of the metagame after you remove this broken element, broken should not check broken.
... is what Mudkipbeans was referring to i.e. a threat that exists in the metagame that is broken on its own and checks other broken threats. A good example would be Weavile in SM UU where it checked Mega Gardevoir and Jirachi. Or the previous RU examples I was rattling on about. Only Snorlax really fits that definition out of the three examples you listed. It is true that banning Snorlax (and Zapdos and Raikou) would lead to a very stale metagame. However, Gen 2 can also justify having an overcentralizing Pokemon due to its very tiny dex (making a ban wave against the interests of tiering) whereas Nat Dex UU has roughly 4x more Pokemon. An over-centralising threat in GSC is not that significant when the metagame is so small and already prone to centralisation (which incidentally is why Pdon is never banned. Ubers already has a small pool of viable Pokemon - something else would end up being just as centralising or worse!) but in recent gens and especially Nat Dex over-centralisation is detrimental because the decrease in the pool of viable mons becomes drastically smaller.
So far in this thread, no one brought up an answer to Weavile that was extremely niche to the point of uselessness - which is a good thing. In fact, quite a few good Pokemon check Weavile like Buzzwole, Tapu Fini, Skarmory, Gyarados-Mega, Dondozo and Clefable. However, the argument isn't that there are no good checks, the argument is that these checks falter to Weavile in practice thanks to a combination of the following four factors: the power of Tera Ice Triple Axel, the crippling effect of Knock Off, being required to terastalise (Weavile doesn't need to tera) and the vulnerability to tera types that can viably lure said defensive answers whilst still being consistent.
I discussed don't need to talk about the other examples since nobody mentioned anything unviable as a response to Weavile. However, I am proud of what I have written, so to avoid derailing the conversation I will put my responses to the other two examples in this spoiler.
During Gen 6, Mandibuzz was a cope option for Aegislash. If anything, the fact that Manibuzz rose was and is cited as an argument on why OU should have banned Aegislash in Gen 6. Aegislash was banned pretty quickly in gen 7, but Mandibuzz itself was a much worse Pokemon in that metagame thanks to the increase in power level due to Z-moves. In gen 8, Mandibuzz did end up managing Aegislash but it was also just a really good Pokemon in that tier naturally: Heavy Duty Boots greatly improved its survivability, it was a pivot with Knock Off and Defog which were rare early SS OU and it checked several top tier Pokemon including Aegislash and (more notably) Dragapult. Whichever Aegislash metagame you were referring to, Mandibuzz rose because it was either a bandaid check to a broken mon or because it was a solid Pokemon in its own right beyond checking Aegislash.
Magneton and Magnezone are fixtures of any Skarmory-heavy metagame but these Pokemon generally rise whenever a steel type is in vogue. However, people do forget that Magnezone and Magneton have excellent type combinations which makes them valid picks in the first place as opposed to something more gimmicky like Golem-Alola. You can't hard switch Magneton into a Metagross or Ttar in advance, but you can use the type combination to better pivot to a teammate such as Zapdos or Swampert. I don't disagree that Skarmory is a significant reason why Magneton/zone is OU in the first place, but their niche is slighter deeper than just trapping the iron bird.
With the two examples you mentioned thus far, yes they both indicate the truism that Pokemon rise because of other metagame-relevant threats but these examples, in particular, aren't the best choices because the Pokemon you are discussing have multiple traits that make them good. I was gonna say Gastrodon in gen 5 and 6 is a better example, but you can make a case that it (soft) checks more than Keldeo in both gens: it checks Rotom-W in both gens; Thundurus-T variants, Ttar, Gliscor in BW; Thundurus and Mega Metagross in ORAS. I also thought of the Cofagrigus uptick in Gen 6 as an example of a metagame development to counter Excadrill Rapid Spinning antics but it turns out this thing can check Azu, Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross. So I will say that perhaps the most egregious example of a mon seeing usage just for a single Pokemon would be Magneton to trap Scizor in Gen 7 UU but even that can help get rid of Klefki and Empoleon which are more niche but still decent mons in the tier.
As a rule of thumb, if a Pokemon is getting usage solely to check 1 threat (ala Seismitoad to check Dracovish), that is not a sign of a healthy meta.
Among the top 10 pokemon by usage, there's Skarmory, Dondozo, Sableye, Clefable, Skarmory, Tangrowth, Gliscor, and Chansey. All among the Top 10. All of which are huge defensive assets
Gliscor and Tangrowth are pretty good Pokemon outside of Stall but the other 6 track. I confess to laddering with stall on the National Dex UU ladder on multiple occasions. I hope there is strength within this community to forgive me for my sins.
The reason why the stall is so prominent, especially on the high ladder, is partially due to it being a no-nonsense playstyle against the NDUU ladder - which has a nasty reputation for running literally anything. This unpredictability leads many to find safe archetypes and builds to ladder with and stall ranks highly in that regard. The other reason why the stall is used so much is that this metagame is broken and balance (the playstyle) is an absolute deadweight in this metagame. Of the 8 mons you mentioned, you can conceivably run 6 on the balance but you won't. This is because running balance in a metagame with this many offensive threats you have to account for is like fiddling with the ropes of a guillotine whilst your neck is still under the blade. It is a sad fact that the high ladder is polarised around Hyper Offense and Stall but such trends usually reflect the presence of broken Pokemon that force teams to the extreme ends of the spectrum to respond to it.
Here's the third-act twist
I don't necessarily want Weavile banned. In fact, I've spoken to MudkipBeans recently and he doesn't want it banned either. I would wager the same for Runo and RICEMAN. In fact, Weavile's presence in this metagame has been argued to be healthy. If you look at the pro-ban arguments, they all emphasise 1 set with one specific caveat: Swords Dance with Terastalisation. I mentioned this earlier but a lot of good Pokemon check Weavile; not many can check Tera Ice without Terastalising themselves and they're still vulnerable to sets like Tera Poison and Tera Electric.
This Weavile suspect test is a microcosm of a bigger issue within the National Dex sphere and that's the negative impact that Terastalisation has. However, we cannot conduct any recent suspect tests on the mechanic because of tiering policies. National Dex UU cannot suspect terastalisation since a lower tier has never banned a "generational defining mechanic" before OU (not to mention National Dex's reputation). The only way forward is to ban the most overwhelming threats one by one, which is a pretty slippery slope to go on. I mentioned Weavile being healthy and that sentiment cuts both ways: it is checked and it checks. In your argument, you mentioned that Weavile leaving the tier makes stall better. If anything, it constrains teambuilding for stall which are now more vulnerable to threats such as Nasty Plot Alakazam that are harder to justify with Triple Axel Weavile running around. In fact, Weavile keeps a lot of dangerous psychic and ghost types at bay for the metagame as a whole thanks to its speed and priority Ice Shard. Without Weavile, teams would have to rely on slower more vulnerable dark types such as Mega-Tyrannitar, its RU superstar base form and Mandibuzz. Now, something like Double Dance Latios or even Mega Gardevoir and Mega Gallade would garner council attention now that a splashable revenge killer is gone. In a metagame without terastalisation, Weavile would be fine. In a metagame with one, the pro-ban argument is more compelling.
TLDR;
* Ambivalent on Weavile leaning ban.
* Terastalisation is a significant chunk of the reasoning - tera ice triple axel @ +2 and consistent lure teras like poison and electric. Also knock off sucks for checks, many who have to tera (weavile doesn't have to).
* Tiering based on discussions where we exchange perspectives on commonly agreed-upon metrics - partially subjective but not fully.
* Everyone agrees that Pokemon get used bc of metagame trends - but if it's one mon that does nothing else gets used that ain't a good sign.
* Stall is reliable in a metagame with crazy threats and for the Nat Dex UU ladder (pit of hell).
* We live in the shadow of National Dex OU
* I could do great things if I didn't waste my time writing the most niche essays known to man.
* What was NDRU cooking?
All things considered, I agree with Velcroc think the thing here is tera is what makes Weavile far too overtuned. The way I see it, Weavile isn't ridiculously unhealthy if it can't tera electric and blow everything apart or tera poison against stuff like fini. This problem will just continue to come up again and again with more sweepers until tera eventually gets the boot; unfortunately we may have to wait on OU for that, although they've been having the tera debate soon so it may get suspected up there at some point. I would say for now, we ban Weavile until tera can get the boot, and then resuspect it when the primary reason it's broken is off the table.
In this regard, I agree with both of you.
Terastalization is a dominating presence that always determines the outcome of my UU battles. Weavile's is one I often exploited to hammer down soft or slow teams. I don't really use the electric or poison Tera, as I consider the opportunity cost of not boosting the main STABs just for not being scared of Scizor to be a large one. But the power of STAB boosted Tera is something I acknowledge to be immeasurably dominating.
It wounds me that the Tera-suspect was rushed in NDOU.
The way I ran my Weavile as an anti-stall mechanism, luckily, was easily filled in by Bisharp, with a higher attack stat, greater bulk, and a toxic immunity to supplement the anti-stall option. Sure, it doesn't have a high speed Triple Axel attack to smash unprepared teams, but its presence only enabled rocky helmet anyways, and its banning will certainly allow the metagame to consider other playstyles. I may never have considered it if not for the suspect proceedings.
So, contrary to the "bad faith" argument I was accused of making, I am serious when I retract my affirmation of no ban, and should I remember to register for the suspect test, will vote ban for the aforementioned issues, at least until something is done about Terastalization.
contrary to the "bad faith" argument I was accused of making, I am serious when I retract my affirmation of no ban, and should I remember to register for the suspect test, will vote ban for the aforementioned issues, at least until something is done about Terastalization.
To clarify for this, I read your message as just plain sarcasm because that’s how most sarcastic messages read, and to add onto this, hopefully something can be done about Tera soon. But as Velcroc said, we will just be going down our broken threats “list” for now. Action was considered for Tera in NDUU, but it is much more efficient for NDOU to take action, as Tera is also widely hated in that tier as well. In the event Tera does get removed, action will be taken to revisit these decisions, and hopefully soon since with no Weavile in a Tera meta, we’re really going to see what all these psychics are capable of.
/
mon is still broken
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