Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[furyofyuriy]

Tera Blast is effectively twice as powerful as Hidden Power and could also be run as a physical option. I'd say there's a big gap between the two.

Counterpoint, Tera Blast is a conditional Hidden Power that commits a valuable resource for 1 good STAB coverage AND a moveslot that may or may not be good in that match. Of the 2 mons it was arguably Broken on (3 if you count Espartha), 2 were set up sweepers and the third (eleki) had an incredible stat spread that could be physical or special depending on build. The only reason Eleki was broken is because it had near perfect coverage with switching options thanks to Volt Switch, Bolt Beam is just that good. But you also don't see Jolteon or Raichu taking up the mantel of Regieleki because even though they can do the exact same thing, their stats aren't as good.

Hidden Power is better in every way IMO because you get an immediate pay out without committing your tera, which is an insane resource. The only reason Tera Blast was broken on Esparthra, Eleki, and Volc was because they either had godlike set up or godlike stats/abilities/moves that worked with Tera Blast. Otherwise, if you don't tera you get a base 80 normal type move.

The majority of the best tera users in the tier don't even use tera blast, and of those that could they often don't because they have a better move that has a secondary effect, even if it's weaker, to match said Tera type.

If tera blast was banned then volc probably wouldn't be. I agree with you that it's basically a non-issue, but some mons definitely use it all the time.

Except that doing so basically means a hard commit to using tera on that mon for Tera Blast value. And if you don't then you have a bad normal move that doesn't really add to your ability to KO mons. Look at it for what it is, a move that is good based on the mon using it. Volc was good because it had Quiver and already great coverage. Tera Blast fit well because it could handle any threat you wanted by swapping out one of it's other moves.

But like, why though. Why suspect the whole mechanic when most of the big losses in terms of bans are because of terra blast. If we can do team preview+ban tb and retain all the mons that we'd retain anyway why not do it?

I'm a pro tera player through and through, but the reason this doesn't work as an argument is because the move itself is Pokemon dependent.To borrow from another player I remember reading on another thread, it's the Smeargle argument, Can Smeargle be oppressive if it has this move. Baton Pass and last respects could be insane, as could shed tail if Smeargle can get it off. But Tera Blast? Nah.

I'm in the Pro tera camp and I would be fine with a tera preview, although it wouldn't be my preference. However lets ask ourselves this... Volc has been a Thorn in OU since gen 5 and has only gotten stronger as the gens progress. Quiver Dance is just that good on it. And in Eleki's case, the only reason it wasn't banned last gen was because Hidden Power was removed. HP Ice Eleki would have disintegrated gen 8 OU.

 

[Fenghuang]

Counterpoint, Tera Blast is a conditional Hidden Power that commits a valuable resource for 1 good STAB coverage AND a moveslot that may or may not be good in that match. Of the 2 mons it was arguably Broken on (3 if you count Espartha), 2 were set up sweepers and the third (eleki) had an incredible stat spread that could be physical or special depending on build. The only reason Eleki was broken is because it had near perfect coverage with switching options thanks to Volt Switch, Bolt Beam is just that good. But you also don't see Jolteon or Raichu taking up the mantel of Regieleki because even though they can do the exact same thing, their stats aren't as good.

Hidden Power is better in every way IMO because you get an immediate pay out without committing your tera, which is an insane resource. The only reason Tera Blast was broken on Esparthra, Eleki, and Volc was because they either had godlike set up or godlike stats/abilities/moves that worked with Tera Blast. Otherwise, if you don't tera you get a base 80 normal type move.

The majority of the best tera users in the tier don't even use tera blast, and of those that could they often don't because they have a better move that has a secondary effect, even if it's weaker, to match said Tera type.

Except that doing so basically means a hard commit to using tera on that mon for Tera Blast value. And if you don't then you have a bad normal move that doesn't really add to your ability to KO mons. Look at it for what it is, a move that is good based on the mon using it. Volc was good because it had Quiver and already great coverage. Tera Blast fit well because it could handle any threat you wanted by swapping out one of it's other moves.

I'm a pro tera player through and through, but the reason this doesn't work as an argument is because the move itself is Pokemon dependent.To borrow from another player I remember reading on another thread, it's the Smeargle argument, Can Smeargle be oppressive if it has this move. Baton Pass and last respects could be insane, as could shed tail if Smeargle can get it off. But Tera Blast? Nah.

I'm in the Pro tera camp and I would be fine with a tera preview, although it wouldn't be my preference. However lets ask ourselves this... Volc has been a Thorn in OU since gen 5 and has only gotten stronger as the gens progress. Quiver Dance is just that good on it. And in Eleki's case, the only reason it wasn't banned last gen was because Hidden Power was removed. HP Ice Eleki would have disintegrated gen 8 OU.

I agree with your reading of eleki and volc, but the fact of the latter is that these are two already very powerful mons balanced around limited coverage. The reason for banning tera blast wouldn't be that the move is so disgustingly powerful that you can put it on a shitmon and it would be OU-worthy, it's that the move allows mons to get coverage they shouldn't have. I guess we had this for hidden power, but I don't remember any mons getting banned because hidden power let them sneak through would be checks.

Edit: I'd like to also point out that OKHO moves aren't strictly speaking overpowered on smeargle but are still banned because they're considering uncompetitive. Obviously pretty different from tb which is not obviously uncompetitive in the same way, but a move doesn't necessarily need to be broken on literally every possible mon to be banworthy.

 

[Avira]

Counterpoint, Tera Blast is a conditional Hidden Power that commits a valuable resource for 1 good STAB coverage AND a moveslot that may or may not be good in that match. Of the 2 mons it was arguably Broken on (3 if you count Espartha), 2 were set up sweepers and the third (eleki) had an incredible stat spread that could be physical or special depending on build. The only reason Eleki was broken is because it had near perfect coverage with switching options thanks to Volt Switch, Bolt Beam is just that good. But you also don't see Jolteon or Raichu taking up the mantel of Regieleki because even though they can do the exact same thing, their stats aren't as good.

Hidden Power is better in every way IMO because you get an immediate pay out without committing your tera, which is an insane resource. The only reason Tera Blast was broken on Esparthra, Eleki, and Volc was because they either had godlike set up or godlike stats/abilities/moves that worked with Tera Blast. Otherwise, if you don't tera you get a base 80 normal type move.

The majority of the best tera users in the tier don't even use tera blast, and of those that could they often don't because they have a better move that has a secondary effect, even if it's weaker, to match said Tera type.

Except that doing so basically means a hard commit to using tera on that mon for Tera Blast value. And if you don't then you have a bad normal move that doesn't really add to your ability to KO mons. Look at it for what it is, a move that is good based on the mon using it. Volc was good because it had Quiver and already great coverage. Tera Blast fit well because it could handle any threat you wanted by swapping out one of it's other moves.

I'm a pro tera player through and through, but the reason this doesn't work as an argument is because the move itself is Pokemon dependent.To borrow from another player I remember reading on another thread, it's the Smeargle argument, Can Smeargle be oppressive if it has this move. Baton Pass and last respects could be insane, as could shed tail if Smeargle can get it off. But Tera Blast? Nah.

I'm in the Pro tera camp and I would be fine with a tera preview, although it wouldn't be my preference. However lets ask ourselves this... Volc has been a Thorn in OU since gen 5 and has only gotten stronger as the gens progress. Quiver Dance is just that good on it. And in Eleki's case, the only reason it wasn't banned last gen was because Hidden Power was removed. HP Ice Eleki would have disintegrated gen 8 OU.

Great post. Although I don't like Tera, I can definitely appreciate pro-Tera posters who don't try to suggest banning Tera Blast for the sake of preserving Tera. You can have legitimate reasons for liking and wanting Tera to be in the meta, but acting like Tera Blast is a problem when it used by such a small portion of the meta and requires a hard commitment to Tera with a particular Pokemon to get the most out of it is disingenuous.

 

[Fenghuang]

Great post. Although I don't like Tera, I can definitely appreciate pro-Tera posters who don't try to suggest banning Tera Blast for the sake of preserving Tera. You can have legitimate reasons for liking and wanting Tera to be in the meta, but acting like Tera Blast is a problem when it used by such a small portion of the meta and requires a hard commitment to Tera with a particular Pokemon is disingenuous.

I mean, we've already had 2 arguably 3 mons be banned because of it. A tb ban would almost definitely not be enough on its own and I think I lean towards tera ban regardless, but is it such a crazy idea to ban universal coverage rather than every one of its abusers?

 

[furyofyuriy]

I agree with your reading of eleki and volc, but the fact of the latter is that these are two already very powerful mons balanced around limited coverage. The reason for banning tera blast wouldn't be that the move is so disgustingly powerful that you can put it on a shitmon and it would be OU-worthy, it's that the move allows mons to get coverage they shouldn't have. I guess we had this for hidden power, but I don't remember any mons getting banned because hidden power let them sneak through would be checks.

Your not wrong in that sentiment and I want to make the point clear. Using Serperior as an example, it needed Hidden Power to be viable in past OU in the majority of it's sets so it wasn't walled by Steel types. However, it was still held down by it's Grass typing. If that mon was in OU now, to use Tera Blast it would be able to shed that weakness of a Grass typing in order to use Tera Blast. Become a ground to hit heatran, Fire for every other steel type and for needed defensive coverage. But that doesn't mean it NEEDS Tera Blast. While this stems into theorymon territory, a Tera steel variant + Contrary/Leaf Storm doesn't need Tera blast for what it is trying to do. Hidden Power worked because while it provided offensive Utility , it had no defensive utility. But Tera Blast REQUIRES defensive utility of the mechanic for offensive pressure.

I mean, we've already had 2 arguably 3 mons be banned because of it. A tb ban would almost definitely not be enough on its own and I think I lean towards tera ban regardless, but is it such a crazy idea to ban universal coverage rather than every one of its abusers?

The difference is the mon that was using it, vs the universal Coverage. Greninja dropped to UU despite universal coverage. Why? Because A) it has better moves that a STAB tera can utilize and B) it isn't the best user of Tera. So the slot is wasted.

Eleki has 200 Base Speed and Tera Blast lets it be either physical or Special attacker and hard commit to that.
Esparthra had Speed boost and was all around just an insane set up sweeper that was hampered only by Steel types without Tera. Tera blast fixed that issue.
And Volc is the best abuser ever of arguably the best set up move in the game (Quiver Dance), coupled by good bulk, unique moves, healing, and utility.

I would much rather see 3 mons who were clearly powerful to begin with go to Ubers than lose the mechanic. Because at the end of the day, losing those 3 means that I can draw from a much vaster pool of pokemon from lower tiers more easily.

 

[Cuddly]

banning Tera blast is more like "only one baton pass user allowed per team" or "you can only drypass with no boosts" - complex restrictions that don't address or fix what the problem is. Banning Tera blast doesn't come close to solving most of the 50/50s Tera brings, it only would nerf offensive Tera on a few mons that have small movepools. A ban on Tera blast would just further empower Iron Valiant since it already has coverage moves to Tera into and nerf stuff like the Galar birds. It's not even close to a solution

For one, it’s not a complex ban. Complex bans are banning things under certain conditions, like banning Speed Boost but only on Blaziken. Banning the move Tera Blast would not be a complex ban because you’re just banning the move.
Second, banning Tera Blast does have merit because it gives Pokemon who otherwise are fine coverage that pushes them over the edge while also having actually good power (in practice being effectively double Hidden Power’s BP). A Pokemon like Espathra normally doesn’t get special Fighting/Bug moves, and would only have Dazzling Gleam. With Tera Blast, it now gets Fighting coverage and Fighting coverage that hits as hard as Focus Blast (or STAB Aura Sphere if you want to be like that). As another example, you have Volcarona, who was part of metagame with Hidden Power. Commonly using HP Ground for Heatran. In theory, it shouldn’t be that much more broken, but instead of doing 50% to Heatran with HP Ground’s weak 60 BP, you can outright OHKO Heatran with the 80 BP + STAB
252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Heatran: 196-232 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tera Ground Volcarona Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Heatran: 384-456 (99.4 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Additionally, it can run Tera Water for other Fire types that are nuetral or immune to Ground, and to get a leg up on Tera Ground Volcaronas. It can do really what ever it wants in order to bypass its checks offensively. With just Tera, you’d only need to prepare for Giga Drain or Psychic or potentially Hurricane.
Bottom line is that Tera Blast lets you beat any one of your checks (underselling it as it often means multiple or majority of your checks) offensively, ones you normally have 0 means of beating otherwise.

 

[VannAccessible]

Here is a sort of memey tailwind team I made with Ursaluna before shifu was banned. You'd need to replace shifu and it needs some work, but i was able to get to the low 1800s with it. Lead Kleavor and Tailwind --> Stone Axe if you're slower than their lead or Stone Axe --> Tailwind if you're faster. Take Down is to kill yourself if tusk tries to spin away your rocks.

https://pokepast.es/c379202e875fb9ea

I got BanDisnDat vibes from that Prankster + Tailwind + Lagging Tail set. :D

I had a similar idea for a Tailwind team with Kleavor, Tornadus and Hoopa, but I felt like it would be less viable than Trick Room, so I shelved it before taking it to the ladder. How’d you do with it?

I feel like Tornadus and Band Hoopa could be very potent HO core, especially if you priority proofed it with Indeedee Psy Terrain support.

 

[Alternator]

I agree with your reading of eleki and volc, but the fact of the latter is that these are two already very powerful mons balanced around limited coverage. The reason for banning tera blast wouldn't be that the move is so disgustingly powerful that you can put it on a shitmon and it would be OU-worthy, it's that the move allows mons to get coverage they shouldn't have. I guess we had this for hidden power, but I don't remember any mons getting banned because hidden power let them sneak through would be checks.

Edit: I'd like to also point out that OKHO moves aren't strictly speaking overpowered on smeargle but are still banned because they're considering uncompetitive. Obviously pretty different from tb which is not obviously uncompetitive in the same way, but a move doesn't necessarily need to be broken on literally every possible mon to be banworthy.

While Tera Blast has been the enabling tool for Volc/Eleki/Espathra, the standard for banning a move is "breaks all users" for poor distribution, and "breaks tons of users" for wide distribution. With Tera Blast having the widest possible distribution, it'd need to be almost single handedly responsible for a tera suspect before policy would support suspecting the move.

The most mentioned mons for a suspect - Kingambit, Gargnacl, Gholdengo - aren't being enabled by Tera Blast (and only Gargnacl is reliant on the mechanic), so that level of support isn't likely to appear.

 

[Srn]

Ngl sometimes I feel like using tera blast on my tera fighting gholdengo just so I don't have to use that move....

 

[I8NY]

Ngl sometimes I feel like using tera blast on my tera fighting gholdengo just so I don't have to use that move....

Bro I feel u I get anxiety attacks just using air slash lol

 

[Narmy]

I feel the same but with hurricane Iron Jugs
I hit focus miss more consistently than it

 

[Zetalz]

I have no fear of missing a 70 or 80 acc move. 90 tho? sweating bullets.

I have witnessed and experienced more misses with shit like Draco, Heat Wave and Ceaseless Edge than any of the big offenders like FB and Stone Edge. Big Mathematics is out to get me.

 

[Komodo_Drogo]

Honestly, I've moved away from the idea of a full tera ban. Though i am stubborn enough to keep pushing for it. As of now, tera is an issue, but I'm more open to reining it in. However I'm still against the idea of a triple suspect for the mechanic. 3 suspects for the same thing as of now feels ridiculous. As of now fitting in 2 is a bit of a struggle thanks to tour play. By the time the third rolls around it would probably be the end of the gen or in the middle of dlc. Both terrible spots.

Can someone list the dlc dates BTW? Those are definitely important things we as a community should be tracking. It's gonna add new mons and maybe older, so a lot can change for the meta.

 

[Narmy]

Still no confirmed dates iirc
Just a rough date of fall 2023 and winter 2023 for teal mask and indigo disk respectively

 

[Avira]

I doubt they will stick with the fall 2023 and winter 2023 release window for Teal Mask and Indigo Disk. Early 2023 for Home became May 30, which is mid 2023. The odds are high that the DLCs will be delayed from their expected release dates.

 

[Mega Breloom]

I doubt they will stick with the fall 2023 and winter 2023 release window for Teal Mask and Indigo Disk. Early 2023 for Home became May 30, which is mid 2023. The odds are high that the DLCs will be delayed from their expected release dates.

I don't think so, they would rather release them full of bugs and with missing content and make patches latter than delay the DLCs.

 

[tigers jaw]

Espathra, Eleki, and Volcarona were all banned mostly because of tera blast. It's my opinion that Chien pao and palafin would be banned regardless of a tera ban. I guess maybe tera pushed them over the edge, but I doubt it.

espathra, eleki, and volcarona were not all “banned mostly because of tera blast” - they were banned thanks to a combination of factors unique to the pokémon (ability, stat spread, movepool, etc.) that are inextricable from them all. this is why they are currently banned, & not tera blast.

for tera blast to be banworthy, it must be demonstrable that it is uniquely broken in & of itself, as is the case with arena trap & shadow tag. i doubt anyone would try to make that case (trust me, you cannot).

the line of reasoning around supposedly preserving pokémon with a tera blast ban is genuinely no different than suggestions of banning speed boost to preserve blaziken in previous gens. you might as well suggest banning calm mind to free espathra, or quiver dance for volcarona, or electric attacks for regieleki. can we please stop trying to preserve things - it is bad tiering.

 

[Cuddly]

espathra, eleki, and volcarona were not all “banned mostly because of tera blast” - they were banned thanks to a combination of factors unique to the pokémon (ability, stat spread, movepool, etc.) that are inextricable from them all. this is why they are currently banned, & not tera blast.

Kind of seems like you’re just vague posting about these 3 Pokemon, knowing full well what pushed them over the edge was Tera Blast. Like obviously these Pokemon have other traits to make them Uber too. We gonna unban Baton Pass and ban bunch of passers because Scolipede isn’t just LCmon with just Baton Pass? These Pokemon were clearly pushed over the edge with Tera Blast and especially Regieleki, who was previous UU, then became Ubers after a day of having good coverage.

 

[tigers jaw]

how is it vague posting when i gave specific examples of equally justifiable means of preservation for each pokémon?

 

[Hpdsd]

Kind of seems like you’re just vague posting about these 3 Pokemon, knowing full well what pushed them over the edge was Tera Blast. Like obviously these Pokemon have other traits to make them Uber too. We gonna unban Baton Pass and ban bunch of passers because Scolipede isn’t just LCmon with just Baton Pass? These Pokemon were clearly pushed over the edge with Tera Blast and especially Regieleki, who was previous UU, then became Ubers after a day of having good coverage.

Yeah, you are correct but just because Tera Blast broke 3 Pokemon (Espathra, Volcarona, Regieleki) it doesn’t mean the broken factor here is Tera Blast. Around 400 Pokemon exist at the moment I believe and only 3 are broken due to Tera Blast, and this ends up being a complex ban due to how the move works. And we should not forget that this move would never see usage without Tera. So to not contradict with the tiering policy the best course of action here if you want these mons back is banning Tera. Tera Preview also works as it removes the surprise factor since you know what is going to happen and I would argue that, the unpredictability of Tera is the broken factor here. But the banned mons won’t be balanced with preview.

 

[Mega Breloom]

And we should not forget that this move would never see usage without Tera

You are correct in everything else, but the sad part is that Eleki would still run normal tera blast even with if tera gets banned because it doesn't have anything else.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Yeah, you are correct but just because Tera Blast broke 3 Pokemon (Espathra, Volcarona, Regieleki) it doesn’t mean the broken factor here is Tera Blast. Around 400 Pokemon exist at the moment I believe and only 3 are broken due to Tera Blast, and this ends up being a complex ban due to how the move works. And we should not forget that this move would never see usage without Tera. So to not contradict with the tiering policy the best course of action here if you want these mons back is banning Tera. Tera Preview also works as it removes the surprise factor since you know what is going to happen and I would argue that, the unpredictability of Tera is the broken factor here. But the banned mons won’t be balanced with preview.

This. Tera blast being broken is a bad argument. It broke 3 pokemon who were as if custom made for tera blast. Put tera blast on 90% of OU mons and it's generally a mediocre move. There is absolutely nothing uncompetitive or broken about tera blast. You don't ban something that's broken on 3 mons only.

Y'all know what might actually be uncompetitive? Being able to change your type. Wow Tera Grass Heatran now resists ground instead of 4x weakness!

If there should be action against anything, it's the brainless type change that destroys the concept of checks and counters.

If you think banning type change is too much, then tera itself is too much.

Tera blast is not Last Respects. I hope people stop trying to think of it as such.

 

[Fenghuang]

espathra, eleki, and volcarona were not all “banned mostly because of tera blast” - they were banned thanks to a combination of factors unique to the pokémon (ability, stat spread, movepool, etc.) that are inextricable from them all. this is why they are currently banned, & not tera blast.

for tera blast to be banworthy, it must be demonstrable that it is uniquely broken in & of itself, as is the case with arena trap & shadow tag. i doubt anyone would try to make that case (trust me, you cannot).

the line of reasoning around supposedly preserving pokémon with a tera blast ban is genuinely no different than suggestions of banning speed boost to preserve blaziken in previous gens. you might as well suggest banning calm mind to free espathra, or quiver dance for volcarona, or electric attacks for regieleki. can we please stop trying to preserve things - it is bad tiering.

I think I agree with this sentiment, but then a big reason that anti-tera people give for wanting to ban tera is that "we've already lost so many mons to tera".

I wonder if the arena trap argument is true. If diglett was the only user of arena trap, would it even be good enough for OU? I recall arena trap Diglett being tried. Additional question: if every single first stage starter got arena trap as a hidden ability, do you think any of them would be busted? Literally no tool is broken in and of itself, every single tool is broken as part of a larger mon.

Let's say we actually weren't allowed to ban moves or abilities. We could ban any mon that was a good user of baton pass instead of banning baton pass, we could ban every single mon that gets arena trap, we could ban every mon that gets moody. Why don't we do this? Because we want to keep more mons to use. We don't want to lose Espeon and ninjask just because it's used in full team baton pass. I think banning something purely to keep another mon in OU is bad tiering (e.g. banning speed boost) but if we're banning a move to keep like, a half a dozen abusers in OU is that really such a terrible affront to sensibility? Maybe, I think ultimately I favor a tera ban, but I can see the other side.

 

[tigers jaw]

I think I agree with this sentiment, but then a big reason that anti-tera people give for wanting to ban tera is that "we've already lost so many mons to tera".

I wonder if the arena trap argument is true. If diglett was the only user of arena trap, would it even be good enough for OU? I recall arena trap Diglett being tried. Additional question: if every single first stage starter got arena trap as a hidden ability, do you think any of them would be busted? Literally no tool is broken in and of itself, every single tool is broken as part of a larger mon.

Let's say we actually weren't allowed to ban moves or abilities. We could ban any mon that was a good user of baton pass instead of banning baton pass, we could ban every single mon that gets aren

back when arena trap & shadow tag were being seriously looked into in g6, after the initial banning of dugtrio, people did in fact use both diglett & even trapinch with success on specific teams. both abilities functioned the same way with the pre-evolutions as they did with dugtrio & gothitelle, only with a smaller pool of targets, so it was concluded that it was the abilities that were the problem.

 

[Fenghuang]

back when arena trap & shadow tag were being seriously looked into in g6, after the initial banning of dugtrio, people did in fact use both diglett & even trapinch with success on specific teams. both abilities functioned the same way with the pre-evolutions as they did with dugtrio & gothitelle, only with a smaller pool of targets, so it was concluded that it was the abilities that were the problem.

I remember this, and I also remember the trapinch sets (don't remember Diglett ever being used). If just trapinch got arena trap and dugtio didn't, I highly doubt it would be even suspected. The sets were annoying, but on the level of magnezone trapping your steel types. I guess I was and still am a pretty bad player, so it's possible I am wrong about that. But like, would we say that arena trap is less deserving of a ban if feebas got it as a hidden ability?