Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[artificialdeath]

Curious: do you find the issue being with boots, or hazards? As in, is there a preference for hazard stacking to matter/stop pivots, or if the issue is they're so prevalent boots feels like the only answer to it?

Considering this meta has made it somewhat normal to run boots on 4+ mons, compared to SS where it was usually just pivots and things like Volc, hazards are the cause and Boots spam is the effect. Increased Spikes distribution, limited hazard control, and the existence of Ghold and Hamurott have all contributed to this

 

[Magcargo]

Curious: do you find the issue being with boots, or hazards? As in, is there a preference for hazard stacking to matter/stop pivots, or if the issue is they're so prevalent boots feels like the only answer to it?

The issue is with hazards. They are extremely prevalent and difficult to remove, making it feel necessary to run Boots as a countermeasure to them. On certain Pokemon, I think this is fine. Stuff like Cinderace, Moltres, and Zapdos are gonna want to run Boots anyways because they are SR weak. The issue is that a lot SR neutral Pokemon like Dondozo, Samurott-H, Toxapex, etc. all need to run Boots instead of something more useful like Leftovers, Black Glasses, Rocky Helmet, etc which limits there threat level and usefulness in several key match-ups. Spikes + Stealth Rock is basically doing the same thing as Stealth Rock to an SR Weak Pokemon like Cinderace, which forces these Pokemon to run Boots if you want them to be able to actually switch in on the opponent more consistently throughout a match

I do kinda see the need for hazard stack being good. Spikes are very useful against all the best Pokemon like Kingambit, Great Tusk, Iron Valiant, and Dragapult. However, relatively speaking, it hurts other, worse Pokemon much more.

All that said, I don't think hazard stack is anymore an issue now than it is in, say gen 5 OU, because Boots are here to act as a bandaid to their presence. However, I wish there was more room to run other items. I am hoping the DLCs bring significantly better hazard removers to remedy this. I do like Tusk being number 1 over Lando-T, but giving that and several other staples like Zapdos, Moltres, etc. Defog would go a long way in granting a bit more room for non-Boots Pokemon.

 

[Moyashi]

it means that you don't even have to bother thinking or considering hazards for what is your pivot/defensive core. I don't think it will ever be about how op hazards are, Instead it is just the ability to ignore what is a large part of the meta game.

It is a lot to do with hazards. I dunno why people want to push the blame or focus on boots, when we're in a generation with such limited viable hazard removal options. Boots are a gift that allows for more possible teambuilding where we'd possibly have even less possibilities without them right now.

I would compare boots to a theoretical "unaware" item ". The issue isn't set up sweepers in that case, it is the fact that as a mon you can literally ignore what is a big and important part of the meta in set up moves, I'd say it is similar in the case of boots. You get so much immense value as mons with boots are quite literally not playing by the same rules as the rest of your team in some cases, you could run helmet on zapdos, you could run colbur/av on glowking, but it isn't really worth it over what you gain by running boots.

Not sure what this is even supposed to mean. Unaware exists as an answer to set up threats, and there's nothing wrong with that either. That doesn't mean you can slap it on just any team. And mons with boots aren't playing by the rules? What? They literally give up an item slot for it. Zapdos has a ton of items it could run very effectively (specs, helmet, lefties) but boots help it be much more splashable and effective in a tier without many removal options. We even saw specs zapdos last gen be a threat.

You know Glowking runs colbur berry a not insignificant amount?

Boots aren't the issue at all. The lack of hazard removal in a tier with an overabundance of hazards is the issue.

 

[LoseToRU?]

I look at some of my older post back in 2013 and tbh they were about as bad as they are now. I suppose the one saving grace is that I care less about using this site to make friends and focus more on the game's various elements. I'm also a lot less of an ass towards players using "bad" mons. So that's some progress ig.

To pivot back to the meta, that Protective Pads Sneaseler is pretty nasty. Gets a lot of free chip on Lando-T / Zapdos w/ Fake out + U-Turn combo w/o risking status or Helmet chip. What makes it good compared to, say Ambipom is that it has Poison Touch letting it fish for Poison vs these guys and win the long game. Hazards are annoying, but I see it gets paired up with Cinderace, which can flip the hazard game to its favor via Court Change. Gets hard stopped by poison types like Slowking-G and esp Toxpex however.

Cinderace is shaping up to become a meta superstar. Whoever came up w/ the idea of using a bulkier EV Spread is a genius. Goes a long way in helping it letting it use Wisp vs some big threats like Lando-T. Also pairs really nicely with Blaze, which buffs its damage output a lot. Its speed is extremely useful in this meta since it lets it revenge a lot of mons like Zapdos, Lando-T, etc when they are at low ranges. All in all, a fantastic option vs most of the standard strategies that one may face, like Hazard Spam and Dual Screens.

Zapdos feels like it has really good 1v1 match-ups vs most of the metagame. Even against Pokemon that it should struggle against like Baxcalibur, it can tech some speed EVs so that it can land an emergency T-Wave. In most games, leading Zapdos and going for Volt Switch seems like a really winning play, though this assertion may be false the higher one goes on the ladder. Also can punish some common Tera Flyers like Gambit and Gholdengo. Tera Flying Thundy-T is a pretty hard MU tho.

It feels like Boots are becoming mandatory on most Pokemon, which I'm not sure how to feel about.

Been toying around w Pads Sneas and I feel like it never procs Psn on those Fake Out into U-Turn combos and I've only gotten 1 status off Dire in like 10 games. It can eat SR so Pads really is the optimal item for that set. It might be better on fatter builds than HO, as their wincon is slow chip all game.
Ace is a nice tool but more mons should have Court Change imo. That's a crazy amount of love their showing for Ace giving it an insane move like that w its speed tier. It's niche cannot be understated even though sometimes it feels like noob bait when my opp is too focused on giving me back 1 layer while I set up.
Zap is great, just think it's carried into a whole other VR ranking by Static. It feels dirty when a 40% Zap is suddenly switched in and sacked on purpose because it can do something even when it does nothing.

What do you guys think of 's place in the metagame? Its movepool is really well suited for today's metagame. Bullet Punch takes care of things like and which are really prominent in the meta rn and can brute force things like with tera. Hazard Stack + Scizor could be a viable option rn? Hazards help alot with things like and which normally wall Scizor.

Zor is lowkey terrible. I couldn't tell you exactly why, because it should be good in this meta, even without roost, but it's not. Its worst enemy is Gold, but a lot of balance mons handle it like Pex, Donzo, Zap, Rotom-W, Corv, Molt, Lando, etc. HO has less counterplay for it but they find a way, sometimes Zama, sometimes Wake or Gren. Feel free to load it up but just pay attention to its usefulness each game. That said Tera- Steel Band needs to be respected forsure even if the mon isn't great.

It is a lot to do with hazards. I dunno why people want to push the blame or focus on boots, when we're in a generation with such limited viable hazard removal options. Boots are a gift that allows for more possible teambuilding where we'd possibly have even less possibilities without them right now.



Not sure what this is even supposed to mean. Unaware exists as an answer to set up threats, and there's nothing wrong with that either. That doesn't mean you can slap it on just any team. And mons with boots aren't playing by the rules? What? They literally give up an item slot for it. Zapdos has a ton of items it could run very effectively (specs, helmet, lefties) but boots help it be much more splashable and effective in a tier without many removal options. We even saw specs zapdos last gen be a threat.

You know Glowking runs colbur berry a not insignificant amount?

Boots aren't the issue at all. The lack of hazard removal in a tier with an overabundance of hazards is the issue.

Yeah boots are a welcomed item and arguably needed to keep the game competitive. That said it feels like GF thinks they nerfed hazards too much last gen and want to balance out HDB by buffing hazards. Gold itself seems like step in the direction of counterplay against defog, kinda like Defiant is. If Molt or Zap could Defog this game would be a lot different but then moves like Ceaseless Edge wouldn't be as cool lol; and with how so many mons randomly got Spikes it seems like that's not the meta GF wanted. They're trying to find a balance and boots is like the perfect item.

 

[Armarogue soldier]

This probably isn't the best place to ask this, but where can I reserve a thread for OU for when the Teal Mask DLC drops? I know a lot of returning mons in there will be up for grabs.

 

[Ryomathekillers]

It is a lot to do with hazards. I dunno why people want to push the blame or focus on boots, when we're in a generation with such limited viable hazard removal options. Boots are a gift that allows for more possible teambuilding where we'd possibly have even less possibilities without them right now.



Not sure what this is even supposed to mean. Unaware exists as an answer to set up threats, and there's nothing wrong with that either. That doesn't mean you can slap it on just any team. And mons with boots aren't playing by the rules? What? They literally give up an item slot for it. Zapdos has a ton of items it could run very effectively (specs, helmet, lefties) but boots help it be much more splashable and effective in a tier without many removal options. We even saw specs zapdos last gen be a threat.

You know Glowking runs colbur berry a not insignificant amount?

Boots aren't the issue at all. The lack of hazard removal in a tier with an overabundance of hazards is the issue.

Hazard removal though limited still has a plethora of relevant strong mons who can control hazards. Tusk, Corv, Cinderace, Hatterene, Treads off the top of my head. There are more niche mons such as Avalugg, Glimmora, Maushold and Toedscruel who either don't fit on every archetype or are limited on the teams they can be used on. Most people are just bored of using pkm such as Tusk for hazard removal.

It seems you don't understand my statement. Lets say you are a defensive pokemon with a a theoretical item that gives you unaware right, the cost of not having this item is pretty big as you simply do not get set up on or care if you get set up on. I never called unaware a problem, my statement was to say that these mons have pretty much no reason not to run this item which is the case with boots.


Pokemon with boots are not playing the rules of the same hazard game, I don't know how you can misunderstand that concept that I am trying to portray, a team with boots cinderace, zapdos and glowking is not playing by the same rules vs hazards as the same team but without boots.


I am aware that these pkm can run other items, but personally I believe that the cost of not using boots is too high.

I think you either misunderstand or simply don't understand what I am saying, even in SS right now there is a lot of people unhappy with boots and some are calling for a potential suspect on it, I think the same should apply in SV post dlc. I don't want to clog up the thread with me clarifying what I mean so I'm going to try and end this here.

 

[ant4456]

people don't run shit unless it is preferable to do so, a decision to make

on a lot of Pokemon in SWSH, other items are better. In SV you don't have a choice, it's barely even a preference. It's not just Zapdos with no Boots is barely even a Kartana check, it's that if you don't run several Pokemon with boots you just don't get to have a defensive core.

it's better for the game that Pokemon can choose to ignore hazards at a cost because right now offense is already super fucking good, and dealing with that with 2 Spikes for free and maybe Rocks would make defensive play impossible

the Pokemon that don't run HDB simply can't afford to

now, if the hazards were not so easy to setup, it'd be a different story

now you have actual options for more Pokemon, because outside of the obvious rock weak Pokemon, it's a decision you get to make

Clodsire would probably love to use Leftovers if it did not immediately get owned by spike stacking, Glowking, etc.

 

[Moyashi]

Hazard removal though limited still has a plethora of relevant strong mons who can control hazards. Tusk, Corv, Cinderace, Hatterene, Treads off the top of my head. There are more niche mons such as Avalugg, Glimmora, Maushold and Toedscruel who either don't fit on every archetype or are limited on the teams they can be used on. Most people are just bored of using pkm such as Tusk for hazard removal.

No it doesn't. Tusk and Cinderace are the only splashable forms of removal. Hatt kinda works, but is used more these days as a calm mind wincon, and still loses to Samurott hard. The rest of what you listed sucks or is extremely niche. Corv sucks as removal, treads just sucks in general, Avalugg, Toedscruel and Maushold are even worse at sucking in the tier. Glimm is not great at removal when steels block spin.

It seems you don't understand my statement. Lets say you are a defensive pokemon with a a theoretical item that gives you unaware right, the cost of not having this item is pretty big as you simply do not get set up on or care if you get set up on. I never called unaware a problem, my statement was to say that these mons have pretty much no reason not to run this item which is the case with boots

It's not about not understanding. It's just a poor argument.

Pokemon with boots are not playing the rules of the same hazard game, I don't know how you can misunderstand that concept that I am trying to portray, a team with boots cinderace, zapdos and glowking is not playing by the same rules vs hazards as the same team but without boots.

There are no "rules". Unless you're gonna argue that magic guard also doesn't play by the "rules".

even in SS right now there is a lot of people unhappy with boots and some are calling for a potential suspect on it,

No there aren't lol. A couple people posting about it and complaining is not "a lot". You have people countering their claims in the same thread.

 

[matte]

Been toying around w Pads Sneas and I feel like it never procs Psn on those Fake Out into U-Turn combos and I've only gotten 1 status off Dire in like 10 games. It can eat SR so Pads really is the optimal item for that set. It might be better on fatter builds than HO, as their wincon is slow chip all game.
Ace is a nice tool but more mons should have Court Change imo. That's a crazy amount of love their showing for Ace giving it an insane move like that w its speed tier. It's niche cannot be understated even though sometimes it feels like noob bait when my opp is too focused on giving me back 1 layer while I set up.
Zap is great, just think it's carried into a whole other VR ranking by Static. It feels dirty when a 40% Zap is suddenly switched in and sacked on purpose because it can do something even when it does nothing.



Zor is lowkey terrible. I couldn't tell you exactly why, because it should be good in this meta, even without roost, but it's not. Its worst enemy is Gold, but a lot of balance mons handle it like Pex, Donzo, Zap, Rotom-W, Corv, Molt, Lando, etc. HO has less counterplay for it but they find a way, sometimes Zama, sometimes Wake or Gren. Feel free to load it up but just pay attention to its usefulness each game. That said Tera- Steel Band needs to be respected forsure even if the mon isn't great.



Yeah boots are a welcomed item and arguably needed to keep the game competitive. That said it feels like GF thinks they nerfed hazards too much last gen and want to balance out HDB by buffing hazards. Gold itself seems like step in the direction of counterplay against defog, kinda like Defiant is. If Molt or Zap could Defog this game would be a lot different but then moves like Ceaseless Edge wouldn't be as cool lol; and with how so many mons randomly got Spikes it seems like that's not the meta GF wanted. They're trying to find a balance and boots is like the perfect item.

Sorry if my question wasn't worded the best. Do you think that hazard stack + would be viable rn? Thing like Pex, Dozo, Zap, Rotom, Corv, and Molt all get chipped down from hazards so when paired with a knock user like it could work alot.

 

[Komodo_Drogo]

Boots isn't the problem, it's hazards or just what's available right now. In a meta with less hazards and better removal, boots wouldn't be as valuable, and you'd probably see more mons without it.

Speaking of, how are people feeling about sam-H? Personally, it's not busted, and it has enough flaws but dealing with it has become somewhat frustrating. How have people been dealing with it?

 

[Cadsuane]

Boots isn't the problem, it's hazards or just what's available right now. In a meta with less hazards and better removal, boots wouldn't be as valuable, and you'd probably see more mons without it.

Speaking of, how are people feeling about sam-H? Personally, it's not busted, and it has enough flaws but dealing with it has become somewhat frustrating. How have people been dealing with it?

Hi! New user here, I've mostly just been lurking :)

For Samurott-H, I have been using Dondozo with a rocky helmet! It can reliably switch into Samu and punish ceaseless edge with chip damage. Body Press after 2x rocky helmet chip reliably kills Samu-H. It's best paired with Cinderace on balance teams so that you can remove the spikes afterward.

 

[sims796]

I've been using a combination of U-Turn into Rocky Helmet. Takes out Sam without any mess afterwards.

 

[ouelite]

What do you guys think of 's place in the metagame? Its movepool is really well suited for today's metagame. Bullet Punch takes care of things like and which are really prominent in the meta rn and can brute force things like with tera. Hazard Stack + Scizor could be a viable option rn? Hazards help alot with things like and which normally wall Scizor.

It’s pretty good. Metal coat Swords dance U-turn close combat bullet punch with enough speed for fairy gambit is good with something that takes advantage of corvilnight, zap and moltres.

life orb with swords dance close combat bullet punch and tera blast electric is good on offense. Pairs well with head smash tusk.

Band is good with things that take advantage of switch ins. I’ve found it pairs well with adamant band meowscarada and Rocks to knock off birds and gholdengo. They also share the same checks.

 

[pika pal]

Hazards Heavy Stacking is the virus, we don't have much for removal treatment, and boots are a symptom. We have exactly 2 notable hazard removers and maybe 2 niche-at-best ones (at least specifically in the role of Hazard Control), and everything and their mother hates Rocks and Spikes going up so easily.

Typically the balance of heavily offensive Metagames has been that Rocks are easy to put up for moderate effectiveness, while Spikes can rack up a lot of consistent damage IF you can risk more turns to potentially stack them. One could argue last gen this dynamic was a bit off-balance because of Boots for defensive mons to put down Rocks, but now Spikes have been made so convenient/accessible between both new users and Samurott-H existing that they don't sink much momentum to set up despite exerting the same pressure to remove, which we lack resources for. Boots thus become the only way for a mon to not-die after like 2 switch-ins to basic Hazard damage, and even with that option available, Offense is still clearly the big wig in this meta.

Boots ain't the problem here, they're the thing that keep Hazards at "probably" an issue rather than "definitely" a problem.

 

[Cadsuane]

Hazards Heavy Stacking is the virus, we don't have much for removal treatment, and boots are a symptom. We have exactly 2 notable hazard removers and maybe 2 niche-at-best ones (at least specifically in the role of Hazard Control), and everything and their mother hates Rocks and Spikes going up so easily.

Typically the balance of heavily offensive Metagames has been that Rocks are easy to put up for moderate effectiveness, while Spikes can rack up a lot of consistent damage IF you can risk more turns to potentially stack them. One could argue last gen this dynamic was a bit off-balance because of Boots for defensive mons to put down Rocks, but now Spikes have been made so convenient/accessible between both new users and Samurott-H existing that they don't sink much momentum to set up despite exerting the same pressure to remove, which we lack resources for. Boots thus become the only way for a mon to not-die after like 2 switch-ins to basic Hazard damage, and even with that option available, Offense is still clearly the big wig in this meta.

Boots ain't the problem here, they're the thing that keep Hazards at "probably" an issue rather than "definitely" a problem.

I agree! I also think that the decreased knock off distribution this generation also helps so that boots are removed less often. Less knock off is really helping Zapdos, Moltres, and bulky Cinderace sets that would otherwise struggle against hazard stack, not to mention whatever stall builds are still hanging on nowadays... If knock off was at its Gen 8 distribution, hazards would be a lot more unbearable than they are now .-.

 

[Fenghuang]

This isn't necessarily a good comparison it's a much smaller meta, but I've been playing CAP and they have a really strong spinner that beats dengo (equilibra) and a more niche defogger that also beats dengo (astrolotl) and it really frees up the mandatory boots slots. Boots are still everywhere, of course, but tbh if boots existed in any gen since gen IV they'd be everywhere.

 

[Empress Mobile]

Personally I think it is with boots.

It is so much easier in the current meta to for example, slap boots into your zapdos and glowking.

it means that you don't even have to bother thinking or considering hazards for what is your pivot/defensive core. I don't think it will ever be about how op hazards are, Instead it is just the ability to ignore what is a large part of the meta game.

I would compare boots to a theoretical "unaware" item ". The issue isn't set up sweepers in that case, it is the fact that as a mon you can literally ignore what is a big and important part of the meta in set up moves, I'd say it is similar in the case of boots. You get so much immense value as mons with boots are quite literally not playing by the same rules as the rest of your team in some cases, you could run helmet on zapdos, you could run colbur/av on glowking, but it isn't really worth it over what you gain by running boots.


They are just quite literally a superior item on mons who pivot a lot or have a rocks weakness, the only mons I dont think boots are clearly the best choice are well choiced mons or mons who just want to sit on the field rather than being used for momentum like Pex, Garg and Lu. Personally I have almost stopped bothering with rocks, it feels all you get out of it these days is maybe 6% chip on a kingambit or you hope that their choiced mon is weak to rocks, but at that point I'd rather just have a more useful move on my mon running rocks (Garg, Tran GT).

Imo the issue is and always has been hazards. It got so much worse in Gen 4 obviously. I'm not saying I think any of them should be banned necessarily, but adding boots provided significant counterplay that was just not present in previous generations. I think the only reason boots could seem problematic is that they interrupted the status quo so dramatically. I think the effect is telling when nearly every team STILL runs hazards and many still run multiple hazards even with boots. Boots are a great way to level the playing field and there's significant counterplay (e.g., Knock Off) and opportunity cost unlike in Gen 4 and especially 5 where giving your opponent a single free turn with their setter usually guaranteed they'd stay up for the entire match.

 

[sims796]

And you gotta lose a whole ass item slot which is really making team building a pain for me. I wish all hazards die, but this is simply the direction the devs want to take the game in, no choice but to adapt.

 

[awyp]

I've spoken to people who voted during the Kingambit suspect test who voted DNB who are starting to have 2nd thoughts and I'm wondering is it because DLC is around the corner?

----

Side note: I think Scream Tail is incredibly underrated and fits in really nice when it comes to this meta, Encore / Wish can be provide a great detail of help.

 

[Blaze_101392]

I've spoken to people who voted during the Kingambit suspect test who voted DNB who are starting to have 2nd thoughts and I'm wondering is it because DLC is around the corner?

If they voted DNB because what's the point banning something if in a months time it would almost assuredly come back with the DLC release, I can see some people regretting that. Right now I don't see much point playing since it's the same as it has been and everything is going to be different in 3 weeks. At least with Gambit gone they could have had a month of something new and it would have given some data on how things look without him around to police other threats.

 

[TheTraininator]

Additionally, even if Kingambit would have gotten unbanned with DLC, it would have been feasible to quickban it again if the meta didn’t shift in a way that made it any more healthy, but now it will take an entire second suspect of it for it to get banned. If anyone voted DNB specifically on the basis of DLC, (which to be fair I dunno if anyone actually did), then imo that was a very poor and ironically a short-sighted call.

 

[JunkoAJ]

This probably isn't the best place to ask this, but where can I reserve a thread for OU for when the Teal Mask DLC drops? I know a lot of returning mons in there will be up for grabs.

There would be a reservation thread for the DLC like there was for Pokemon HOME :)

 

[EnesBatur]

If they voted DNB because what's the point banning something if in a months time it would almost assuredly come back with the DLC release, I can see some people regretting that. Right now I don't see much point playing since it's the same as it has been and everything is going to be different in 3 weeks. At least with Gambit gone they could have had a month of something new and it would have given some data on how things look without him around to police other threats.

I think if a Pokemon got banned before the DLC came out and then got unbanned, then the Pokemon would have a better case of being banned again under the impression that "nothing has changed since last time it was legal" being a more solid argument.

 

[Stellar Flares]

I've spoken to people who voted during the Kingambit suspect test who voted DNB who are starting to have 2nd thoughts and I'm wondering is it because DLC is around the corner?

----

Side note: I think Scream Tail is incredibly underrated and fits in really nice when it comes to this meta, Encore / Wish can be provide a great detail of help.

They voted "do not ban" because most of them wanted to qualify easily during OLT #changemymind

 

[Negative Charge]

I would love to see how different a Gholdengo-less meta would be. It’s not broken individually but I think it represents the single biggest bottleneck to team building and playstyle development of any mon going back several generations. Every single team is prepped for hazard stack and the inability to defog. It’s no joke to say the entire meta orbits this thing in the builder both offensively and defensively. Basically I think its presence just makes the whole meta worse.