Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[tr8orsrequiem]

If this is your recollection of the response to the Volcarona ban, then -- to put it bluntly -- you are recalling it very wrong.

People are always going to be upset at every ban. You can never please everyone. Hence why I said concerns about the process, rather than opinions, are what resonated. Plenty of experienced players with knowledge of tiering believed there were better ways to handle it with less rushing. This was not just charizardfan12 being salty lol

As far as I'm concerned, any complaint about process in regards to the Volcarona ban was just an excuse to whine about the ban itself, just using an argument with a veneer of legitimacy instead of openly whining. The ban was entirely normal and within what the council has done in the past. There was an obviously dumb and broken Pokemon, a community survey was put out, and there was support, so the council quickbanned it. Simple as that- I don't think there's any argument to be made about "rushing" or the council "not letting the meta develop around it."

It's the same awful argument people have been using to defend Baxcalibur lately. The Pokemon is objectively broken, it was rightfully banned, and they need to get over it. We can all tell they're not actually arguing about the process and we all know that if it hadn't got banned, or if a Pokemon they disliked got banned, we wouldn't be talking about the quickban process whatsoever.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Plenty of experienced players with knowledge of tiering believed there were better ways to handle it with less rushing. This was not just charizardfan12 being salty lol

but do those same players feel the same way about the current situation? this ogerpon-heronstork nonsense feels very different to me than volcarona did, and i believe there's a lot less ambiguity about her brokenness. i feel like this might be overcorrecting in a situation where swift action would be justified and supported by the community at large

 

[Finchinator]

but do those same players feel the same way about the current situation? this ogerpon-heronstork nonsense feels very different to me than volcarona did, and i believe there's a lot less ambiguity about her brokenness. i feel like this might be overcorrecting in a situation where swift action would be justified and supported by the community at large

They are not identical situations, but the process itself is the point and applying some caution when we have an opportunity to get current metagame data as opposed to outdated data is crucial.

As far as I'm concerned, any complaint about process in regards to the Volcarona ban was just an excuse to whine about the ban itself, just using an argument with a veneer of legitimacy instead of openly whining. The ban was entirely normal and within what the council has done in the past.

As much as I wanted Volcarona gone, it went from not being included in the survey and getting 0 ban votes to getting banned. This is not precedented -- it is incorrect to say it was "entirely normal" or "within what the councul has done in the past".

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

It's the same awful argument people have been using to defend Baxcalibur lately. The Pokemon is objectively broken, it was rightfully banned, and they need to get over it. We can all tell they're not actually arguing about the process and we all know that if it hadn't got banned, or if a Pokemon they disliked got banned, we wouldn't be talking about the quickban process whatsoever.

Once it has -2 Defense from Scale Shot, it's very vunerable to priority moves such as Scizor's Bullet Punch and Infernape's Mach Punch if they have a Choice Band and there isn't Snow and Aurora Veil in Baxcalibur's side.

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

As much as I wanted Volcarona gone, it went from not being included in the survey and getting 0 ban votes to getting banned. This is not precedented -- it is incorrect to say it was "entirely normal" or "within what the councul has done in the past".

It's precedented enough in the fact that Volcarona was absurdly and obviously broken to anyone with eyes. That's all the precedent there needs to be.

Once it has -2 Defense from Scale Shot, it's very vunerable to priority moves such as Scizor's Bullet Punch and Infernape's Mach Punch if they have a Choice Band and there isn't Snow and Aurora Veil in Baxcalibur's side.

Calyrex-S dies in one hit to knock off! Make it ou!!!

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

As much as I wanted Volcarona gone, it went from not being included in the survey and getting 0 ban votes to getting banned. This is not precedented -- it is incorrect to say it was "entirely normal" or "within what the councul has done in the past".

didn't this happen to iron bundle too? i vaguely remember it not even being on anyone's radar until after the flutter mane ban, then getting banned at the next available opportunity. i could be wrong, though, since i've intentionally blocked out most memories of pre-2023 gen 9 ou

 

[Finchinator]

It's precedented enough in the fact that Volcarona was absurdly and obviously broken to anyone with eyes. That's all the precedent there needs to be.

This is not and never has been how precedent has been formed or utilized.

 

[ant4456]

If this is your recollection of the response to the Volcarona ban, then -- to put it bluntly -- you are recalling it very wrong.

People are always going to be upset at every ban. You can never please everyone. Hence why I said concerns about the process, rather than opinions, are what resonated. Plenty of experienced players with knowledge of tiering believed there were better ways to handle it with less rushing. This was not just charizardfan12 being salty lol

I would still not trust someone who has won 1600 tournaments and been on like 50 Smogon Councils, could do all that and I'd still think they were on drugs if they actually thought Volcarona shouldn't be banned

 

[Rootb]

didn't this happen to iron bundle too? i vaguely remember it not even being on anyone's radar until after the flutter mane ban, then getting banned at the next available opportunity. i could be wrong, though, since i've intentionally blocked out most memories of pre-2023 gen 9 ou

This one makes sense, at least. Bundle is just "Flutter Mane, but Worse, but still broken", so it needed there to be a Flutter-less meta to really shine.

 

[sims796]

I said it before, I'll say it again: Iron Defense works absolute wonders on Sinescha. One or two, and it's an excellent endgame cleaner. Here's my goofy haha set

Sinistcha-Masterpiece @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Heatproof
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense
- Strength Sap
- Matcha Gotcha/Scald

It's like playing CM Hatterene, cept I can spinblock. I wouldn't call it a check or anything. Not because of how powerful it is (Tera Poison+Heatproof handles her well enough), but the crits. Ivy Cudgel is ridiculous. Sometimes I wish it had Shell Armor.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

It's precedented enough in the fact that Volcarona was absurdly and obviously broken to anyone with eyes. That's all the precedent there needs to be.

It really wasnt lol...

even in the recent unban vote (for a quick drop) it was only 5/10 voting to keep it banned. There's an even split of arguments from both sides to see if it should stay or go, and a suspect would be the proper place to find out since there's room for debate. (the only issue is it'll probably be a 50% vote and since you need a 60% margin... the fact a QB that shouldn't have happened in the first place would be why it's gone since it would've failed the ban vote.... now it has to win the unban vote.)

Its probably the #1 write mention in the survey if valiant isn't. Especially since they covered tera anyways,

0-9 to 7-2 after 6 whole months isn't 'unprecedent it was absurd and broken'.

 

[Finchinator]

That is not really what happened with Bundle. There was more time and discussion + it predates the modern tiering survey system we used this generation altogether.

You can argue nothing could be comparable to Volcarona from that period because of that and honestly you’d be right — using surveys liberally has been an improvement of our process, but it also holds us more accountable.

There’s also way too much revisionist history. Volcarona was nowhere near close to unanimously broken. You guys saw it receive some support to come back twice in recent surveys.

Using your personal opinions that do not line up with factual data to argue…we shouldn’t get more current data on Pokemon before we vote on them? is not a hill you guys should be dying on, trust me.

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

This is not and never has been how precedent has been formed or utilized.

Well, then we might as well legalize the box legends and anything else that hasn't been tested in OU! How can we know for certain that they're broken? It's almost as if there's something... self evident about their power level? It's almost as if you can just look at their stats and movepools and say, "yep, this shit is obviously too good for OU, no reason to test it." I don't see any reason why that can't be done with things like tera as well.

 

[Finchinator]

Well, then we might as well legalize the box legends and anything else that hasn't been tested in OU! How can we know for certain that they're broken? It's almost as if there's something... self evident about their power level? It's almost as if you can just look at their stats and movepools and say, "yep, this shit is obviously too good for OU, no reason to test it." I don't see any reason why that can't be done with things like tera as well.

You’re comparing box legendaries to Volcarona to try and justify us using outdated data to ban a totally unrelated Pokemon.

I implore you to take a step back and think this through.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Well, then we might as well legalize the box legends and anything else that hasn't been tested in OU! How can we know for certain that they're broken?

Almost like a moth for 5 generations can't compare to fucking reshiram and arceus.

 

[kosecant]

That is not really what happened with Bundle. There was more time and discussion + it predates the modern tiering survey system we used this generation altogether.

You can argue nothing could be comparable to Volcarona from that period because of that and honestly you’d be right — using surveys liberally has been an improvement of our process, but it also holds us more accountable.

There’s also way too much revisionist history. Volcarona was nowhere near close to unanimously broken. You guys saw it receive some support to come back twice in recent surveys.

Using your personal opinions that do not line up with factual data to argue…we shouldn’t get more current data on Pokemon before we vote on them? is not a hill you guys should be dying on, trust me.

Honestly finch, as someone who has been present for most of the biggest backlashes against quickbans the past few generations, I feel the worst outcry correlates with bans done to benefit upcoming/ongoing tournaments over OU in general. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing to do, but that’s where I feel people get the most angry.

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

You’re comparing box legendaries to Volcarona to try and justify us using outdated data to ban a totally unrelated Pokemon.

I implore you to take a step back and think this through.

I'm pointing out a flaw in your logic- there clearly is a degree where you can look at a Pokemon's various traits and see that it is, on a fundamental level, too good for OU. Volcarona, in Generation 9, is clearly in this camp. I've yet to see a single good argument for it remaining in the tier- its stats are great, its main flaw (typing) is irrelevant because it's a tera sweeper, and it has potentially the single best boosting move in the entire game in Quiver Dance. It completely gets to pick whatever beats it and doesn't and that's self evident just by looking at its movepool and understanding that Tera is a mechanic that exists and that it allows a Pokemon to change its type mid-battle.

There doesn't need to be anything past that to ban it. A suspect test is just a waste of everyone's time because the mon is so fucking obviously broken on the face of it. The only people who want it to remain are either morons and don't want anything banned from OU ever for any reason, or are so HO-brained that they only care about being able to abuse whatever 6 braindead sweepers are still in the tier.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I said it before, I'll say it again: Iron Defense works absolute wonders on Sinescha. One or two, and it's an excellent endgame cleaner. Here's my goofy haha set

Sinistcha-Masterpiece @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Heatproof
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense
- Strength Sap
- Matcha Gotcha/Scald

It's like playing CM Hatterene, cept I can spinblock. I wouldn't call it a check or anything. Not because of how powerful it is (Tera Poison+Heatproof handles her well enough), but the crits. Ivy Cudgel is ridiculous. Sometimes I wish it had Shell Armor.

the problem with running only one move is that it'll get walled by a lot no matter how many boosts it gets. run matcha gotcha and all you have to deal with ogerpon-heatproofproof is a double-resisted move, not to mention the loads of other grass resists that are running around because of her. run shadow ball and you autolose to every normal-type. run scald and you get hard-walled by water absorbers (aside from ogerpon-wellbutrin, volcanion and gastrodon are still somewhat viable, and a handful of people are still running water absorb clodsire or quagsire), and you also get dunked on by water resists that can get rid of your boosts, like haze pex and dragon tail dipplin. any other non-stab move has its own set of problems. single-attack setup mons are just not a great idea in general because they inevitably have a massive hole in their coverage and you'll be forced to switch out against mons you can't hit, which setup sweepers hate doing

 

[Finchinator]

I'm pointing out a flaw in your logic- there clearly is a degree where you can look at a Pokemon's various traits and see that it is, on a fundamental level, too good for OU.

That is not a flaw in my logic and it does not even address the point -- that is just forming basic opinions on Pokemon. Volcarona is not a Pokemon that we had a community consensus on being Uber ever, so applying this logic to that unilaterally is not applicable.

Your argument was we should not use Volcarona as an example for the process needing changing, but my argument is that even if Volcarona was broken -- which I agree it was, the process had a flaw: something went from not getting a vote or making a survey to getting banned after 6+ months. We need to go off of the most recent and accurate data to make decisions and we clearly did not there. Having another survey assures this. It is a no-brainer.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

You’re comparing box legendaries to Volcarona to try and justify us using outdated data to ban a totally unrelated Pokemon.

I implore you to take a step back and think this through.

well, ogerpon is technically also a box legendary, even though the dlcs don't physically get boxes. but then again, so is pikachu

 

[lydian]

well, ogerpon is technically also a box legendary, even though the dlcs don't physically get boxes. but then again, so is pikachu

thats not what a box legend is by the smogon definition. its the 670 bst ones. maybe restricted legendary is a better term. and cmon you may say pikachu is in the box of a game but it surely isnt a legendary lol

 

[sims796]

I wanna agree, but that hasn't been as much of an issue as I would have thought. I've done the same with Drifblim, cept with Shadow Ball. Enough boosts can actually muscle past quite a bit. Hazers and Unaware mon are a problem. Don't set up in front of them. That's why I labeled it a cleaner (or I meant too if I haven't). With all relevant threats out of the way (and there are less than I thought) it isn't hard to become an unmovable wall. It preys on physical sweepers to build power.

I bought up Hatterene not because of Calm Mind, but rather Draining Kiss. After enough boosts, that's all I ever ended up clicking, not even a resist would be enough. Again, I would only use Shadow Ball on my Unburden Grassy Seed Drifblim set, and that's enough to handle Kingambit with 5 Supremes.

The real threat here has been critical hits breaking through.

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

That is not a flaw in my logic and it does not even address the point -- that is just forming basic opinions on Pokemon. Volcarona is not a Pokemon that we had a community consensus on being Uber ever, so applying this logic to that unilaterally is not applicable.

Your argument was we should not use Volcarona as an example for the process needing changing, but my argument is that even if Volcarona was broken -- which I agree it was, the process had a flaw: something went from not getting a vote or making a survey to getting banned after 6+ months. We need to go off of the most recent and accurate data to make decisions and we clearly did not there. Having another survey assures this. It is a no-brainer.

The problem is that this community this generation has shown a distinct unwillingness to actually ban anything (see again the Volcarona ban controversy, Kingambit not getting banned, Tera not getting banned, hell I'm pretty sure I saw people defending Regieleki back when that was legal). Am I supposed to trust that the community is going to vote on the survey to get rid of obviously broken things? We got rid of Baxcalibur, sure, but the problem is that there are other obviously broken things in the metagame (manaphy, ogrepon-humberbatch) that need to go as well, and I don't trust this community to make the right decision on them. I trust the council to make the right decision, but if you're only ever going to do (quick) tiering action via survey instead of doing the obvious correct thing, I worry that the community's bad decision making is going to prevent adequate action from being taken.

To put it more bluntly- if the community has it their way, this generation will be Gen 5, part 2: the Tera-ing. I don't want this meta to be a hyperoffense hellhole, and I don't think anyone on the council does, either. Does the council intend on doing anything to prevent the generation from being another Gen 5 situation?

 

[Morkal]

Admittedly without the original meme format being in that recognizable image, I ain't reading allat

Example belowView attachment 553650,

I spent way too long on this

 

[Finchinator]

The problem is that this community this generation has shown a distinct unwillingness to actually ban anything (see again the Volcarona ban controversy, Kingambit not getting banned, Tera not getting banned, hell I'm pretty sure I saw people defending Regieleki back when that was legal). Am I supposed to trust that the community is going to vote on the survey to get rid of obviously broken things?

The tier is played by the community and the entire tiering system is based on this, meaning that the catalyst of tiering action should be the community. It does not really matter if you "agree" or "disagree" with them personally -- you cannot and we will not ignore them.