Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[tommytt22]

I find it really interesting how different people find certain pokemon broken but aren't concerned about others. I personally have never had trouble or felt constricted by gliscor or gholdengo. To me, I find more trouble with ogerpon forms, nasty regen cores, and while I can play around it, I find kingambit completely overcentralising. I carry 2 pokemon capable of burns on every team and if they don't burn it I usually lose to it.

I guess my point is there's a lot of pokemon this generation that aren't ubers but also feel a level above OU. There are too many threats to build a consistent team that encompasses counterplay to all of it. I don't know what the answer is here but I know it definitely isn't "leave broken shit here because it checks other broken shit". I hate that rhetoric. We didn't ban kingambit because we were afraid of what dragapult and gholdengo would do, then dlc drops 2 weeks later and there's a bunch more knock off users, strong dark types, we easily could've adapted. It was overcentralising then and it's overcentralising now.

Then I come back after a few days off and everyone's (ok not everyone but a few) talking about dropping all the bans back into the mix once dlc2 drops

Huh????!!??! Have we moved into crazy town??

If something has been banned then the only way it should be let back in is a retest, the only exception would a change to a mechanic (for example banning last respects allows houndstone back without a retest). Very few if any of the bans have been from lack of counters in the dex, it's just brazen, reckless power creep by gamefreak.

If something is broken now, and there's a possibility 1 counter will Drop in the dlc, that's no reason to add the pokemon back? 1 counter is the definition of overcentralising, every team will have to run the same pokemon??

 

[yomaalt]

Hi guys it's been a while so I skimmed past the OU talks n all n

I find it really interesting how different people find certain pokemon broken but aren't concerned about others. I personally have never had trouble or felt constricted by gliscor or gholdengo. To me, I find more trouble with ogerpon forms, nasty regen cores, and while I can play around it, I find kingambit completely overcentralising. I carry 2 pokemon capable of burns on every team and if they don't burn it I usually lose to it.

I guess my point is there's a lot of pokemon this generation that aren't ubers but also feel a level above OU. There are too many threats to build a consistent team that encompasses counterplay to all of it. I don't know what the answer is here but I know it definitely isn't "leave broken shit here because it checks other broken shit". I hate that rhetoric. We didn't ban kingambit because we were afraid of what dragapult and gholdengo would do, then dlc drops 2 weeks later and there's a bunch more knock off users, strong dark types, we easily could've adapted. It was overcentralising then and it's overcentralising now.

Then I come back after a few days off and everyone's (ok not everyone but a few) talking about dropping all the bans back into the mix once dlc2 drops
View attachment 559966
Huh????!!??! Have we moved into crazy town??

If something has been banned then the only way it should be let back in is a retest, the only exception would a change to a mechanic (for example banning last respects allows houndstone back without a retest). Very few if any of the bans have been from lack of counters in the dex, it's just brazen, reckless power creep by gamefreak.

If something is broken now, and there's a possibility 1 counter will Drop in the dlc, that's no reason to add the pokemon back? 1 counter is the definition of overcentralising, every team will have to run the same pokemon??

Uh, If I recall, I believe when DLC2 drops is when the "True" SV experience begins, as all mons, moves, n stuff will be finalized and the gen (shouldn't) have any new metagame updates, hence why they want to drop all OUBLs. It's to "give them a chance" (they don't need it) as in hope that something within the metagame, once everything is at their final power level, will be able to handle it. I agree, it's a dumb idea, but idk it brings in players so that's cool. Also keep pathra banned lmfao

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

I only support unbannings if it concerns Tera being banned. Because that is such a substantiative mechanic that a lot of mons (like Volcarona) are broken largely because of it.

Then we, like, I dunno. Ban Dondozo or something.

 

[Avira]

I know Finchinator and the OU Council are planning to drop many mons back down to OU when Indigo Disk drops, but I hope that it's not a full soft reset as we don't need THAT many dropped back down.

TL;DR: Keep everything banned aside from Iron Bundle, Annihilape, and Volcarona although I personally disagree with Iron Bundle and Annihilape being dropped down. Do not test Darkrai.

Specs Tera Fire Chi-Yu can OHKO Blissey with Overheat in the Sun for Pete's sake. KOing Blissey with a neutral special attack is insane.

Ursaluna-Bloodmoon was banned by one of the highest margins in OU history and doesn't need a retest.

Chien-Pao has been given 2 chances already, and it was oppressive for the meta both times.

Ogerpon-Hearthflame is extremely oppressive and completely lacks defensive counterplay.

Flutter Mane is absolutely still busted now and doesn't need to be dropped down. That power and offensive typing with its speed still makes it a gross mon to play against.

Magearna will never be balanced in OU again after the buffs it received it Gen 8 especially now that it has Tera, so keep it banned.

Urshifu-Single Strike was an unga boonga mon back in SS, and now it's even more stupid with SD and Tera.

Baxcalibur is ridiculous and forces you to pop a defensive Tera to deal with it while it doesn't have to do so itself. It's combination of power, bulk, abilities, and boosting potential make it too much for OU.

Urshifu-Rapid Strike is worse to face than Zamazenta-Crowned because of Swords Dance and Punching Gloves, and also Tera, although I think it could be broken even without Tera.

Palafin literally has no business being retested as long as Tera allows it to invalidate potential counterplay entirely although one could maybe (a soft maybe) make the case for it to be balanced if Ogerpon-Wellspring remains in the meta.

Zamazenta-Crowned can't hold an item, but it stat-checks so much of the tier due to its high speed, bulk, typing, and Dauntless Shield when it comes in for the first time.

Espathra just has no business being tested so long as Tera is legal much like Palafin.

Not much has changed for Iron Bundle aside from us now having Zamazenta, which is faster than it and hits it hard with either Body Press or Close Combat, Slowking-Galar, and also Goodra-Hisui, which does wall Iron Bundle if Bundle doesn't Tera Fighting or Ground. I guess one can justify dropping it down if he/she REALLY wants to although I personally wouldn't do it if I had any say over things.

As for Annihilape, I am disgusted by this thing's play patterns and think it will always be horrible for the meta especially if Tera is legal, but I guess you can fish for burns with Zapdos and Moltres now, and the overall power level of the tier has increased, so I guess dropping it down wouldn't be unjustified even though I highly disagree with doing that. Gliscor is also faster than it and can Toxic it.

As for Volcarona, it never should have been quickbanned in the first place, so it should be dropped down after Indigo Disk is released.

And as an aside, Darkrai still cleaves through the tier especially now that it has Psyshock as an option. There is no point in testing it.

 

[pika pal]

No longer requires Dark or Ghost coverage in its movesets and can more freely use moves like Encore or Trick. Additionally it can use more Psychic moves to hit Poison types and hit almost everything nuetrally with STABs + Psychic.

Besides Gliscor (also on Radar) and Tera’d Garg, it can spam Dire Claw and fish for Status uncontested besides against Steel types (You know, the perfect Fighting type check). It can also run Tera Blast Ice for likes of Gliscor and Landorus-T without having to worry about being cucked by Gholdengo.

Can simply run Fighting coverage now to deal with Steel types, something it couldn’t do before because of Gholdengo.

Body Press has 1 less Ghost type that completely blocks it. Like with Sneasler it is also now more free to use options like Play Rough, Psychic Fangs, Iron Head, or Ice Fang to break past other checks

+2 Boomburst with Fighting and Dragon STAB is incredibly hard to wall, especially with Tera Normal providing STAB and reducing weaknesses

No longer has to deal with Air Ballon Gholdengo, or regular Gholdengo as it can more freely run coverage for Corviknight and Dragapult too.

One of the biggest offensive Steels being gone means its Aurora Veil is much easier to set up and leading to shit like this being much easier
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 76-90 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 86% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Frosmoth in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 186-220 (66.1 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Slaking Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 115-136 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And plenty more examples
And yes, all these Pokemon have different checks and counters too, but Gholdengo fits on a lot more teams. Like Skeledirge can check Iron Valiant, but is more suited for bulkier teams. Garg can safely switch into Dire Claw but would also need to Tera Poison or Tera Ghost to not be dunked on by +2 Close Combat off 130 Atk or the surprise Gunk Shot. And Garg fits better on bulkier teams.
It fills a similar role in OU as Landorus-T or Great Tusk because it can check so much while providing multiple roles at once.

The only one of these I don't want to give are Valiant and Sneasler. Valiant as is is already the subject of a lot of scrutiny, so I don't think keeping it controllable is a good enough reason to keep a mon with a negative Hazard influence around like Gholdengo, and Sneasler's only outright concerning trait is Dire Claw (which is more an uncompetitive concern than an overpowered concern), otherwise being "Gen 9 Power Hawlucha" which isn't itself something we don't have stuff to deal with naturally in some capacity.

Ogerpon-Stone has other issues beyond Gholdengo even if that would help its coverage (no defensive utility hampering its switching-in and STAB coverage that's good but not foolproof on OU bigwigs), the others get strong but if Gholdengo is literally the only thing keeping them from being considered broken, then I think that's just a broken-checks-broken concern. I mentioned before that if a Pokemon is exerting that level of influence on how balanced Mons or entire types are, even if not on-their-face broken with a given set, then we deemed that unhealthy back with Aegislash in XY.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

I know Finchinator and the OU Council are planning to drop many mons back down to OU when Indigo Disk drops, but I hope that it's not a full soft reset as we don't need THAT many dropped back down. Specs Tera Fire Chi-Yu can OHKO Blissey with Overheat in the Sun for Pete's sake. KOing Blissey with a neutral special attack is insane.

Ursaluna-Bloodmoon was banned by one of the highest margins in OU history and doesn't need a retest.

Chien-Pao has been given 2 chances already, and it was oppressive for the meta both times for much of the same reasons as Flutter Mane.

Ogerpon-Hearthflame is extremely oppressive and completely lacks defensive counterplay.

Flutter Mane is absolutely still busted now and doesn't need to be dropped down. That power and offensive typing with its speed still makes it a gross mon to play against.

Magearna will never be balanced in OU again after the buffs it received it Gen 8 especially now that it has Tera, so keep it banned.

Urshifu-Rapid Strike is worse to face than Zamazenta-Crowned because of Swords Dance and Punching Gloves, and also Tera, although I think it could be broken even without Tera.

Palafin literally has no business being retested as long as Tera allows it to invalidate potential counterplay entirely although one could maybe (a soft maybe) make the case for it to be balanced if Ogerpon-Wellspring remains in the meta.

Zamazenta-Crowned can't hold an item, but it stat-checks so much of the tier due to its high speed, bulk, typing, and Dauntless Shield when it comes in for the first time.

Espathra just has no business being tested so long as Tera is legal much like Palafin.

Not much has changed for Iron Bundle aside from us now having Zamazenta, which is faster than it and hits it hard with either Body Press or Close Combat, and also Goodra-Hisui, which does wall Iron Bundle if Bundle doesn't Tera Fighting or Ground. I guess one can justify dropping it down if he/she REALLY wants to although I personally wouldn't do it if I had any say over things.

As for Annihilape, I am disgusted by this thing's play patterns and think it will always be horrible for the meta especially if Tera is legal, but I guess you can fish for burns with Zapdos and Moltres now and the overall power level of the tier has increased, so I guess dropping it down wouldn't be unjustified even though I highly disagree with doing that.

As for Volcarona, it never should have been quickbanned in the first place, so it should be dropped down after Indigo Disk is released.

TL;DR: Keep everything banned aside from Iron Bundle, Annihilape, and Volcarona. Do not test Darkrai.

Iron Bundle gaining one single check makes no difference, unless you expect every team to run Zamazenta or lose to Bundle. Annihilape gaining 2 Pokémon that can paralyze (lol how does this change anything) or burn (oh no the 300bp move's power dropped) it 30% of the time it attacks has nothing to do with its ability to completely invalidate non-HO playstyles. These simply are not OU Pokémon, sorry

 

[Avira]

Iron Bundle gaining one single check makes no difference, unless you expect every team to run Zamazenta or lose to Bundle. Annihilape gaining 2 Pokémon that can paralyze (lol how does this change anything) or burn (oh no the 300bp move's power dropped) it 30% of the time it attacks has nothing to do with its ability to completely invalidate non-HO playstyles. These simply are not OU Pokémon, sorry

Hey, I specifically said that I personally would not test Iron Bundle or Annihilape. I could just see the justification for doing so. I still believe both of them are clear Uber-level Pokemon, but if there is any justification for testing them, the OU Council will probably do it.

And, technically, Slowking-Galar also checks Iron Bundle, and it wasn't around before Home. Gliscor is also faster than Annihilape and can Toxic it. I still believe that Iron Bundle and Annihilape are broken, but there is more justification to test them than before.

 

[tommytt22]

Hey, I specifically said that I would not test Iron Bundle or Annihilape. I could just see the justification for doing so. I still believe both of them are clear Uber-level Pokemon, but if there is any justification for testing them, the OU Council will probably do it.

Your tl/Dr says keep bundle and annihilape and volc.

I can understand volc. It was controversially quick banned so fair enough that gets let back in. The ban list so far though is really gross. Maybe OUBL is actually worth it's own ladder. Pokemon like roaring moon and valiant which are borderline in OU would be fairly balanced running around in there with the other bans like annihilape and chi yu and magearna. It'll never happen, but the solution to more pokemon is usually more tiers, pu, zu etc. Why not add a tier on top for once?

 

[Avira]

Your tl/Dr says keep bundle and annihilape and volc.

I can understand volc. It was controversially quick banned so fair enough that gets let back in. The ban list so far though is really gross. Maybe OUBL is actually worth it's own ladder. Pokemon like roaring moon and valiant which are borderline in OU would be fairly balanced running around in there with the other bans like annihilape and chi yu and magearna. It'll never happen, but the solution to more pokemon is usually more tiers, pu, zu etc. Why not add a tier on top for once?

I think it's generally unfeasible to have a lower-level Ubers tier unless the quality of walls go way up as most low-level Ubers are offensive Pokemon. If you want a balanced meta with higher-powered mons, we would realistically need to play with all of Lugia (which was dexited), Giratina, and Arceus-Bug at minimum, three lower-level Uber support Pokemon. Otherwise, with a lack of defensive options, the tier would just be an HO hellhole. And I don't believe most people seriously want to play with low-level Uber walls. They just want to mash buttons with fun HO mons.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Your tl/Dr says keep bundle and annihilape and volc.

I can understand volc. It was controversially quick banned so fair enough that gets let back in. The ban list so far though is really gross. Maybe OUBL is actually worth it's own ladder. Pokemon like roaring moon and valiant which are borderline in OU would be fairly balanced running around in there with the other bans like annihilape and chi yu and magearna. It'll never happen, but the solution to more pokemon is usually more tiers, pu, zu etc. Why not add a tier on top for once?

because what happens when (not if, when) something breaks that tier? you'd have to ban it, to keep the tier from becoming unplayable. and then you'd have to ban the next broken thing that crops up after that's gone because now you have precedent. and then the next and the next and the next, and before you know it you've banned all the things that you created the tier to keep and you've just invented ou again. the alternative is to not ban anything ever, which would result in everyone abandoning the tier after a month or two after realizing it's always going to be unbalanced crap with no room to change or grow. that's why oubl can't happen in practice

 

[The_Bookworm]

I think it's generally unfeasible to have a lower-level Ubers tier unless the quality of walls go way up as most low-level Ubers are offensive Pokemon. If you want a balanced meta with higher-powered mons, we would realistically need to play with all of Lugia (which was dexited), Giratina, and Arceus-Bug at minimum, three lower-level Uber support Pokemon. Otherwise, with a lack of defensive options, the tier would just be an HO hellhole. And I don't believe most people seriously want to play with low-level Uber walls. They just want to mash buttons with fun HO mons.

Funnily enough, there is actually an unofficial low-level Ubers tier that exists as of recently.
It is called UUbers, and instead of it being simply containing the mons that got booted out of OU, or mons that are considered low ranked in the Ubers VR, it instead comprises of mons below 4.52% usage in Ubers. What UU is to OU is what UUbers is to Ubers.
Hilariously enough, it does mean that both Ribombee and Skeledirge is actually not allowed in UUbers cause they are above 4.52% usage in Ubers, despite both not being Ubers by tiering.
However, this metagame is overall very interesting, with Magearna acting as the Lando-T-esque glue mon, and then the top 3 mons in the tier being 1) Arceus forms below 4.52% usage, 2) Palkia-Origin, 3) Zacian-Hero.
More info about this unofficial tier can be seen in this video.

 

[Cuddly]

The only one of these I don't want to give are Valiant and Sneasler. Valiant as is is already the subject of a lot of scrutiny, so I don't think keeping it controllable is a good enough reason to keep a mon with a negative Hazard influence around like Gholdengo, and Sneasler's only outright concerning trait is Dire Claw (which is more an uncompetitive concern than an overpowered concern), otherwise being "Gen 9 Power Hawlucha" which isn't itself something we don't have stuff to deal with naturally in some capacity.

Ogerpon-Stone has other issues beyond Gholdengo even if that would help its coverage (no defensive utility hampering its switching-in and STAB coverage that's good but not foolproof on OU bigwigs), the others get strong but if Gholdengo is literally the only thing keeping them from being considered broken, then I think that's just a broken-checks-broken concern. I mentioned before that if a Pokemon is exerting that level of influence on how balanced Mons or entire types are, even if not on-their-face broken with a given set, then we deemed that unhealthy back with Aegislash in XY.

Cornerstone is absolutely an underrated threat and I’m tired of pretending its not.
Cornerstone’s STAB combination is excellent, even more so because a lot of the most common Steel types are actually neutral to Grass or Rock. Only 2 OU steel types that resist that combo are Gholdengo and Kingambit.
Besides other Steels not neutral to either Grass or Rock, there is about a total of 3 type combinations that can resist its STABs, being Fight+Poison/Grass/Dragon with only relevant ones being Sneasler and Kommo-o. So along with effective 154 Atk and insanely good STABs, Cornerstone is a potent offensive threat.
In addition, it also has multiple traits in its favor for sweeping. Namely its automatic +1 Def in its Tera form, which is incredibly useful to have. Countless times my sweep would have ended if it wasn’t for +1 Def to provide protection against priority. +1 Def can actually be a lifesaver. It can survive Tera Dark Black Glasses Max SO Sucker Punch from Kingambit, while Wellsprings can be OHKO’d without Tera boost.
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Rock Ogerpon-Cornerstone-Tera: 240-284 (79.7 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 270-318 (89.7 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
The Def you get with Tera Cornerstone is massively impactful and more important than Wellspring’s SpD boost because of that.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Funnily enough, there is actually an unofficial low-level Ubers tier that exists as of recently.
It is called UUbers, and instead of it being simply containing the mons that got booted out of OU, or mons that are considered low ranked in the Ubers VR, it instead comprises of mons below 4.52% usage in Ubers. What UU is to OU is what UUbers is to Ubers.
Hilariously enough, it does mean that both Ribombee and Skeledirge is actually not allowed in UUbers cause they are above 4.52% usage in Ubers, despite both not being Ubers by tiering.
However, this metagame is overall very interesting, with Magearna acting as the Lando-T-esque glue mon, and then the top 3 mons in the tier being 1) Arceus forms below 4.52% usage, 2) Palkia-Origin, 3) Zacian-Hero.
More info about this unofficial tier can be seen in this video.

uubers, on the other hand, is actually a fine idea because it's not banlist-based but usage-based. that means that you can, if needed, ban things from it, which makes it possible to create a tentative, shaky kind of balance. also, preventing some non-ubers from participating is interesting—aside from ribombee and skeledirge, uubers also disallows (as of this month) glimmora, toxapex, corviknight, ting-lu, lando-t, clodsire, iron treads, kingambit, and ditto. i think this is a very neat concept that can work a lot better than oubl and deserves a shot

 

[tommytt22]

because what happens when (not if, when) something breaks that tier? you'd have to ban it, to keep the tier from becoming unplayable. and then you'd have to ban the next broken thing that crops up after that's gone because now you have precedent. and then the next and the next and the next, and before you know it you've banned all the things that you created the tier to keep and you've just invented ou again. the alternative is to not ban anything ever, which would result in everyone abandoning the tier after a month or two after realizing it's always going to be unbalanced crap with no room to change or grow. that's why oubl can't happen in practice

Maybe. But the distinction should be anything that breaks this hypothetical tier is a clear uber pokemon anyway. The issue is OU power level is getting too close to ubers. The line should be crystal clear but it's getting too blurry. We also have hundreds of unused pokemon in PU. I Understand progress but pushing almost the entire ou tier from last gen down to UU and RU Is too hard and fast. Something major has to change about tiering to adjust to this new power level. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone but gamefreak.

And what you said about all the broken pokemon being offensive is a point in itself. Look at the bst of offensive threats, 590, 570? And not spread out either, completely minmaxxed stats. Meanwhile the best defensive pokemon we got were dondozo (solid 530) and clodsire (430 yikes). gamefreak are bastards for that

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Maybe. But the distinction should be anything that breaks this hypothetical tier is a clear uber pokemon anyway. The issue is OU power level is getting too close to ubers. The line should be crystal clear but it's getting too blurry. We also have hundreds of unused pokemon in PU. I Understand progress but pushing almost the entire ou tier from last gen down to UU and RU Is too hard and fast. Something major has to change about tiering to adjust to this new power level. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone but gamefreak.

And what you said about all the broken pokemon being offensive is a point in itself. Look at the bst of offensive threats, 590, 570? And not spread out either, completely minmaxxed stats. Meanwhile the best defensive pokemon we got were dondozo (solid 530) and clodsire (430 yikes). gamefreak are bastards for that

I mean, as I've pointed out, this is because Gamefreak effectively doesn't care about balancing Legendaries/Mythicals/Ultra Beasts/Paradoxes. They're meant to be purposely more powerful than ordinary Pokemon, and thus be seen as more special. The problem is (combined with a lot of horribly-balanced regular mons) is that competitive has never once made a distinction, and thus we're essentially trapped in an arms race where half the guns are made without any proper regulation. Which is, uh, bad.

 

[artificialdeath]

wrt DLC2 unbans, I think it should be done somewhat similarly to how HOME was handled, just with more user input in the form of surveys (the council members still have the final say but have a good sense of popular opinion). The logic is similar: all of these mons have a record of being broken, with the HOMEmons it was brokenness in prev gens but with DLC2 its brokenness earlier this gen, and there are some that it is more sensible to test again. Barring massive, unforeseen meta shifts I don't think allowing Chien Pao back in OU would be very constructive, for example; that's the most glaring one, considering it spent the longest time being broken in the tier (bax only became unquestionably broken with the advent of atales veil teams), but there probably won't be many arguments for things like Palafin, Blood Moon, Magearna, or Firepon. Don't let the people who post about power creep lead you to believe that it's so massive that most things with a history of brokenness stop being broken, especially in an era of ridiculous minmaxed stats and abilities/moves that I would have made when I was 11 and didn't have much of a concept of how Pokemon balancing should work.

 

[Avira]

Maybe. But the distinction should be anything that breaks this hypothetical tier is a clear uber pokemon anyway. The issue is OU power level is getting too close to ubers. The line should be crystal clear but it's getting too blurry. We also have hundreds of unused pokemon in PU. I Understand progress but pushing almost the entire ou tier from last gen down to UU and RU Is too hard and fast. Something major has to change about tiering to adjust to this new power level. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone but gamefreak.

And what you said about all the broken pokemon being offensive is a point in itself. Look at the bst of offensive threats, 590, 570? And not spread out either, completely minmaxxed stats. Meanwhile the best defensive pokemon we got were dondozo (solid 530) and clodsire (430 yikes). gamefreak are bastards for that

Actually, only about a third of Gen 8's OU is UU this gen. Most of the mons that were previously OU that aren't OU now were dexited as they were mainly the Tapus, the stronger Ultra Beasts, Melmetal, and Urshifu-Rapid Strike (which is now Uber). Power creep has increased, but it's not as bad as you stated.

And it was my point, not DaddyBuzzwole's, about most of the broken Pokemon being offensive Pokemon. It is clear that although there has been some defensive powercreep in Ting-Lu, Dondozo, Clodsire, Skeledirge, and Scream Tail, most of those Pokemon are actually UU and have lower BST than the new offensive options for the most part.

 

[awyp]

I've been playing around quite a bit and the one thing I can say is extremely consistent since last meta (Pre-DLC) has been Cinderace, with all the webs spam, aurora veil spam, it's just a perfect mon to kinda clean up the emergency hazard. Provides fantastic speed tier and you still have a 3rd slot for a move that doesn't have to be Will-O-Wisp. I've been leaning towards more Libero as of recent since I haven't seen that much Moltres. Yeah Cinderace honestly is a top 10 Pokemon at the moment.

 

[tommytt22]

Actually, only about a third of Gen 8's OU is UU this gen. Most of the mons that were previously OU that aren't OU now were dexited as they were mainly the Tapus, the stronger Ultra Beasts, Melmetal, and Urshifu-Rapid Strike (which is now Uber). Power creep has increased, but it's not as bad as you stated.

And it was my point, not DaddyBuzzwole's, about most of the broken Pokemon being offensive Pokemon. It is clear that although there has been some defensive powercreep in Ting-Lu, Dondozo, Clodsire, Skeledirge, and Scream Tail, most of those Pokemon are actually UU and have lower BST than the new offensive options for the most part.

apologies if im mixing names up, im on my phone its not as easy as a computer to see whats what. out of interest, how do you compare booster mons vs ultra beasts. obviously there are duds in both cases like guzzlord and iron thorns, but valiant vs pheromosa for example. roaring moon vs kartana. I think the best booster moons are better than the best UBs.

 

[Avira]

Pheromosa is way more broken than Iron Valiant ever was. Like it's not even close. Even though it was frail as shit, it was a much bigger threat because of its speed tier (which isn't 1-time) and snowballing potential with Beast Boost. Its sets with U-Turn were also broken. I would say Roaring Moon is overall better in Gen 9 than Kartana was in Gen 8, but that's mainly because of Roaring Moon being able to cheese past things with Tera, which Kartana couldn't do.

I'd say Flutter Mane is better than the best Ultra Beast, but I'm not convinced that Iron Bundle is 100% better than Pheromosa was as they each have their own strengths even though Iron Bundle does have a harder to wall STAB combo. The worst UBs are definitely worse than the worst Paradox mons though.

 

[ZannaBianca]

I'd say Flutter Mane is better than the best Ultra Beast, but I'm not convinced that Iron Bundle is 100% better than Pheromosa was as they each have their own strengths even though Iron Bundle does have a harder to wall STAB combo. The worst UBs are definitely worse than the worst Paradox mons though.

In Italian we would say that we are debating the sex of the angels, but I argue Naganadel is at least on the same level, if not stronger. By the way now that I think of it, Paradoxes with BE kinda work as a progression from Ultra Beasts, just instead of getting the boost after every kill you get only one immediately

 

[Empress Mobile]

Pheromosa is way more broken than Iron Valiant ever was. Like it's not even close. Even though it was frail as shit, it was a much bigger threat because of its speed tier (which isn't 1-time) and snowballing potential with Beast Boost. Its sets with U-Turn were also broken. I would say Roaring Moon is overall better in Gen 9 than Kartana was in Gen 8, but that's mainly because of Roaring Moon being able to cheese past things with Tera, which Kartana couldn't do.

I'd say Flutter Mane is better than the best Ultra Beast, but I'm not convinced that Iron Bundle is 100% better than Pheromosa was as they each have their own strengths even though Iron Bundle does have a harder to wall STAB combo. The worst UBs are definitely worse than the worst Paradox mons though.

With all due respect, what is the point here? Flutter Mane and Naganadel are/were both hilariously broken. Pheromosa and Iron Bundle are/were widely considered unmanageable. Roaring Moon, Iron Valiant and Kartana are/were top tier threats that could potentially be considered broken. You are comparing apples to oranges here since none of the UB's are currently available in a standard metagame where Paradox mons are also allowed.

 

[SilentKillerVGC]

I'd say Flutter Mane is better than the best Ultra Beast, but I'm not convinced that Iron Bundle is 100% better than Pheromosa was as they each have their own strengths even though Iron Bundle does have a harder to wall STAB combo. The worst UBs are definitely worse than the worst Paradox mons though.

Naganadel in USUM was probably hilariously broken as Flutter Mane. Naganadel forced you to use extremely specific 'counters' like SPDEF Heatran / Assault Vest Tyranitar / Chansey because Naganadel can 6-0 teams. However, SPDEF Heatran and Chansey literally lose 1v1 to Naganadel if Naganadel used NP when they switched in on it. Because Naganadel can set NP up again, they can't OHKO Nagadanel. Nagadanel can beat them with Devastating Drake at +4/+6. If AV Tyranitar was the best answer for Nagadanel, it's a testament on Nagadanel was broken as fuck.

 

[ZannaBianca]

Naganadel in USUM was probably hilariously broken as Flutter Mane. Naganadel forced you to use extremely specific 'counters' like SPDEF Heatran / Assault Vest Tyranitar / Chansey because Naganadel can 6-0 teams. However, SPDEF Heatran and Chansey literally lose 1v1 to Naganadel if Naganadel used NP when they switched in on it. Because Naganadel can set NP up again, they can't OHKO Nagadanel. Nagadanel can beat them with Devastating Drake at +4/+6. If AV Tyranitar was the best answer for Nagadanel, it's a testament on Nagadanel was broken as fuck.

Remember when GF randomly gave it Spikes last gen? They were trying to warn us of what they were about to do

 

[Lord Pxperto]

wehn we will have the VR?