oh right, i forgot, doing most of the balancing right away would risk putting the council out of a job
(yes, i know this isn't the actual reason)
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
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(yes, i know this isn't the actual reason)
lol
another banger from ou tier leader finchinator
Hot take, going to play UU is actually a pretty fun decision. Like I went and played a couple games this week and tera feels like an option instead of an obligation, and sure, there are some mons that I hate seeing down there in that meta.
This is the summary of Gen 9 though. It's why suspecting Roaring Moon, although correct, won't actually address anything. RM is just another breaker like Urshifu-SS last gen. It's not going to fix the issues of the meta and the strangleholds imposed during teambuilding by mons like Gholdengo, or the hazardstack wars that have reached their peak toxicity in this generation.
All that aside, I stand by the Volcarona ban, because even if players don't like it, we have to live with it. If you don't like it, come play UU with me! Or take a walk and stare up at the sky and imagine Roaring Moon soaring across it as it exits OU!
if u aren't trolling don't report these bullshits
urshifu rapid strike was similar to volcarona , able to check gambit, samurott etc but after tera was able to oneshot everything but nobody ever cried for him
and stop crying over gambit, volc was good because it was defensively viable (allowing to check fairies) but at the same time was impossible to stop after a quiver dance; if it wasn't going to be quickbanned for home it was quickbanned with dlc because of aurora veil
urshifu rapid strike was similar to volcarona , able to check gambit, samurott etc but after tera was able to oneshot everything but nobody ever cried for him
u had no idea who kokoloko was 2 days ago, quickbanning broken volcarona was bad, quickbanning half of the tier is the way to go lmao
I'm curious what the community would say is the generation with the most power creep, but I think a real argument can be made that Gen 9 is near the top and that is going to cause things to be really off balance for a while. This is especially true when the bias is to allow as many things to be legal as feasible.
Okay so.... I'm not going to waste time arguing on the internet, but
Kingambit is almost half the tier. 40% usage stat posed on October 1st. Sooo Kingambit is almost half the tier.
Great Tusk is 30% of the tier.
Gholdengo is 23% of the tier.
And these stats are skewed because this was when Blood Moon was still in the format.
Everyone in this community is crying about something, because there is so much wrong with this generation that cannot be properly fixed in any capacity.
So to everyone who is tired of this endless, terminal meta: Abandon the stinking ship while it still smells. Go play PU and ignore everything other than the suspect tests and surveys!
Gen 5 is still a real strong contender, between the weather wars and GEN 5 UU being so similar to Gen 4 OU, but I think this might have it beat. I can't wait for Indigo Disk to come up with some hitherto-unseen horseshit like Bloodmoon but worse to settle the debate once and for all.
u describe gambit like if is the same pokemon as bloodmoon but it isn't
gambit can be burned, encored by everything, we even got scald back; gambit is strong but there are counterplays, u dont need a specific dumb pokemon like bronzong to counter him, we are also talking about a pokemon with 50 base speed, even if max speed, neutral nature it can be slower than uninvested 95 base speed
that's why ursaluna got 90% or something of votes for the ban and gambit is still ou and calling for a quickban or another suspect has no logical sense
usages means nothing if a pokemon is broken or not, i remember the xy lando incarnate moving from uubl to ubers or normal lando be ranked s/a+ since bw 2 and never be considered for a suspect, it held 10 years ou together
i dunno, i think the worst is over. how could they possibly top something with 135 spa, semi-spammable base 140 stab that nothing is immune to, wall-level physical bulk, setup, recovery, and priority?
emax etern, right? some pokemon were just not designed to be used. ever.
the answer? more special bulk to immediately face tank special attackers.
If by "held together" you mean "had a complete stranglehold on the role until Great Tusk showed up this generation", then sure. I'll accept that.
Kingambit doesn't hold this tier together. It strangles it almost as bad as Gholdengo does. Although maybe if Gholdengo were gone, Kingambit and Great Tusk wouldn't be as popular.
Who knows? We'll never find out unless we get through the next 40 suspect tests we need before DLC2 drops and the Tera suspect fails, killing this generation just like Gen 8 DLC.
Have a good night!
pure hackmons was never playable but eternamax made it especially unplayable. it was so bad that at one point they straight-up abandoned gen 8 and made bdsp the primary gen for the meta, until it turned out that that was actually worse because of arceus forms now being decoupled from the ability and items, leading to this:
Gholdengo and Kingambit literally both are glue mons, specifically talking about Kingambit, we have so many busted offensive threats in the tier, including several with absurd speed stats thanks to booster energy, being able to revenge through booster energy with sucker is really valuable in contemporary OU. Defensive Gholdengo is also a really potent blanket check to threats like Ogerpon, Moth, Valiant, Zamazenta, etc... these are glue mons just as well as Mid Tusk (as Gliscor has made him) is
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KamenOH
formerly DynamaxBestMeta
What's the end goal, even? What is the council fighting to achieve? Some nebulous "balance" meta? The inclusion of all playstyles, or as many as possible? Do they want fun? Fuck if I know, and fuck if they know too. What takes 18 bans, nearly 2 per month, to achieve?
Unrelated because I dont wanna double post but have we considered Inverse Kokoloko tiering for the beginning of Indigo Disk? Drop almost everything we banned, except the shit that got 85+% ban votes because holy FUCK that would be banned for a reason. Perhaps shit will be balanced when we have the full crop harvested, and not just one base game field? I don't fully believe in it, but it can't be worse than some of the shit proposed here.
I feel like Gholdengo is worth taking a serious look at after Roaring Moon’s suspect is cleared out. It’s been talked to death but the things that make it so unhealthy are:
- With its metagame presence alone, just by existing, by the concept of Good As Gold being something that legitimately exists in the game on such a fundamentally good Pokémon, it creates an unhealthy suppression of hazard removal. Even the even the best current options for that in the tier (Great Tusk and Corviknight) are heavily threatened by it and outright neutered by it. It’s to the point where people are running Cinderace just for this thing’s sole existence (and it also threatens Ogerpon and Kingambit ig, but that also shows how unhealthy the meta is as a whole for Cinderace having to be brought out just cause it coincidentally checks some of the major brokens around rn).
- With the abundance of Spikes spammers this gen and point 1, it boosts the power Spikes have in the meta to an unhealthy level. Gliscor, Samurott-H, Ting-Lu and other Spikes spammers have all been complained about even before Gliscor came back (with Samurott-H even ending up on a survey before) cause Gholdengo allows them to just casually set those hazards without any consistent form of punishment.
- Screens and Webs are also bolstered by Gholdengo preventing Defog from removing them. Which in turn helps even Spikeless Hyper Offense teams from having their hazards and screens punished. And that in turn makes the meta much more offensive than it already would have been. Which in turn makes Kingambit/Ogerpon/Roaring Moon/Whatever even more overwhelming…
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You might be able to post about some of the sets you are using here.
Something to remember is that we are not tiering for any hypothetical DLC2. We are tiering for the current metagame. We shouldn't be looking ahead to DLC2 when talking about the current meta, especially since I believe Finchinator has said there will be a Home-esque unban wave.
I mostly play small fan tiers now, but I was cursed to care about Smogon, so I'm going to leave my thoughts from what I have seen and played at 3AM even though I have class in 6 hours. I think the biggest issue with the current metagame, as outlined above by SDK, is the current state of hazard play. In the boots era, the more hazards in a meta, the more polarizing teams become. This isn't a universal rule, but it's a decently common trend. I think hazards are healthy in a vacuum, but in metas where removal is difficult to impossible, they can become overcentralizing. Hazards being centralizing leads to boots being centralizing on defensive teams, which leads to knock off being centralizing,which leads to Roaring Moon going from mid to Ubers but I disgress
That said, I do think Gholdengo is the biggest issue here and should be looked at. Spinblocking is nothing new to competitive Pokemon, neither is punishing Defog. Gholdengo has a unique set of traits that allow it to control the hazard metagame to, I believe, an unhealthy extent. One comment I've seen is that "if Ghold gets banned, we'll just see other mons spinblock", which is technically true, but misses half the point of why Ghold is so good at what it does. Spinblocking (or, for another example, using Defiant to punish Defog) is inherently risky because, if your opponent predicts it, you often cripple or even flat-out lose the spinblocker. The list of Pokemon that can punish Gholdengo is not large. "But so many of the top tiers beat!!" Sure. My argument is that they are top tiers because of Gholdengo--mons that beat Gholdengo in addition to doing other stuff pushes them over mons of the same role that don't beat Ghold. Look at how Tusk is the only Rapid Spinner worth a damn in OU. There's some solid spinners in UU that have some appealing traits... but they get shut down by Ghold so that's a complete no-go. Creative hazard removal is impossible as long as Gholdengo is in the tier. I'm not saying "creative hazard removal" because I think Tsareena is secretly OU-viable in a Ghold-less metagame, but I do think we would see more than Tusk. Cyclizar and Quaq are two Pokemon with very interesting toolkits that could fit into OU teams, but are unable to do their jobs with Ghold around. They currently lie D and UR respectively. There are a few Defoggers ranked in the lower viability ranks that appreciate Ghold being gone as well. It's not as drastic, but there are a couple Defoggers in UU that would be more playable without Ghold in the tier. Cinderace is a top Pokemon right now due to Court Change. People are running Maushold to bypass Ghold, and it's doing good enough as of right now to be ranked B-. There's only 3 removers ranked B or higher (technically there's 5 but Glimmora and Torkoal aren't ranked primarily for their removal, though I admit they can compress it), in part because the rest can't beat a single Pokemon... should we not look at that Pokemon?
Removing Ghold re-opens hazard play to more creativity while also decentralizes the tier. People can run removers that aren't Tusk, Cinderace, or the occasional Defogger, usually Corv. Removing Ghold is one less reason to run Kingambit (though Pult would admittedly still be a problem). I recognize that Ghold has defensive merits and removing it would push some Pokemon over the edge. With that said, I think that something needs to give in this currently broken-checks-broken metagame, and, in my opinion, banning Gholdengo is the first domino we need to topple to see what truly are the broken things. Are the current offensive juggernauts as broken as they are if they have to deal 24% damage on the switch? Is Gliscor as problematic as it is if things don't have to worry about being chipped to death (as much)? Questions worth pondering. I'm not sure how this post will go over but I hope it at least gets some people thinking.also if we ban ghold we can free Roaring Mid my boy did nothing wrong
tldr: "Remember! Reality's an illusion, the universe is a hologram, ban Ghold, bye!" - Bill Cipher
I mostly play small fan tiers now, but I was cursed to care about Smogon, so I'm going to leave my thoughts from what I have seen and played at 3AM even though I have class in 6 hours. I think the biggest issue with the current metagame, as outlined above by SDK, is the current state of hazard play. In the boots era, the more hazards in a meta, the more polarizing teams become. This isn't a universal rule, but it's a decently common trend. I think hazards are healthy in a vacuum, but in metas where removal is difficult to impossible, they can become overcentralizing. Hazards being centralizing leads to boots being centralizing on defensive teams, which leads to knock off being centralizing,
That said, I do think Gholdengo is the biggest issue here and should be looked at. Spinblocking is nothing new to competitive Pokemon, neither is punishing Defog. Gholdengo has a unique set of traits that allow it to control the hazard metagame to, I believe, an unhealthy extent. One comment I've seen is that "if Ghold gets banned, we'll just see other mons spinblock", which is technically true, but misses half the point of why Ghold is so good at what it does. Spinblocking (or, for another example, using Defiant to punish Defog) is inherently risky because, if your opponent predicts it, you often cripple or even flat-out lose the spinblocker. The list of Pokemon that can punish Gholdengo is not large. "But so many of the top tiers beat!!" Sure. My argument is that they are top tiers because of Gholdengo--mons that beat Gholdengo in addition to doing other stuff pushes them over mons of the same role that don't beat Ghold. Look at how Tusk is the only Rapid Spinner worth a damn in OU. There's some solid spinners in UU that have some appealing traits... but they get shut down by Ghold so that's a complete no-go. Creative hazard removal is impossible as long as Gholdengo is in the tier. I'm not saying "creative hazard removal" because I think Tsareena is secretly OU-viable in a Ghold-less metagame, but I do think we would see more than Tusk. Cyclizar and Quaq are two Pokemon with very interesting toolkits that could fit into OU teams, but are unable to do their jobs with Ghold around. They currently lie D and UR respectively. There are a few Defoggers ranked in the lower viability ranks that appreciate Ghold being gone as well. It's not as drastic, but there are a couple Defoggers in UU that would be more playable without Ghold in the tier. Cinderace is a top Pokemon right now due to Court Change. People are running Maushold to bypass Ghold, and it's doing good enough as of right now to be ranked B-. There's only 3 removers ranked B or higher (technically there's 5 but Glimmora and Torkoal aren't ranked primarily for their removal, though I admit they can compress it), in part because the rest can't beat a single Pokemon... should we not look at that Pokemon?
Removing Ghold re-opens hazard play to more creativity while also decentralizes the tier. People can run removers that aren't Tusk, Cinderace, or the occasional Defogger, usually Corv. Removing Ghold is one less reason to run Kingambit (though Pult would admittedly still be a problem). I recognize that Ghold has defensive merits and removing it would push some Pokemon over the edge. With that said, I think that something needs to give in this currently broken-checks-broken metagame, and, in my opinion, banning Gholdengo is the first domino we need to topple to see what truly are the broken things. Are the current offensive juggernauts as broken as they are if they have to deal 24% damage on the switch? Is Gliscor as problematic as it is if things don't have to worry about being chipped to death (as much)? Questions worth pondering. I'm not sure how this post will go over but I hope it at least gets some people thinking.
tldr: "Remember! Reality's an illusion, the universe is a hologram, ban Ghold, bye!" - Bill Cipher
I wouldn't say its vocal minority just there's nothing to vocalize now its basically "wait DLC 2" cause thats what they decided. Even though the council said they'd test it before DLC, test it after DLC (they didn't they had a split even vote to QUICK DROP which would've been a fucking disaster instead of slowly letting others vote on it and discuss, you would've had just as many bitching about the drop without letting them vote for it), they just completely ignored the feedback around it... then finch implied just dropping it DLC2 release.
Even anti-volc saw that ban as pretty scummy how it happened and completely mishandled, regardless of which side of the fence you were with volc that was just... a lil faith losing in who runs the show. At this point its not even about volc its watching just how they manage to find ways to either fuck it up, go against their own word/policies, and ignore the most obvious solution to the whole predicament that would clean their names.
Like the fact we're prioritizing roaring moon over a proper volc test, kingambit retest, hazards test, and I'm still going to fucking say it cause its procrastination at this point; tera test, is such a bizarre decision to me.. we complain how tight time is now with home+DLC shakeups and then we do this with it. Roaring Moon I wouldn't have been surprised if it was suspected at the start of the gen.... but I genuinely forget about it now and this is the time we do it?? Same scenario as volc... home volc was weaker than the past 6 months volc with shed tail, screens, and then we QB ban it?? I would love to see how the council cooks cause I swear to fucking arceus they're the ones that boil french fries.
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I wish magnezone had a reliable recovery.
I can see it working in OU as a slow bulky attacker.
I tried using this set
Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Analytic
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 124 HP / 132 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Protect
- Flash Cannon
- Discharge
- Body Press
this set is nothing but a gimmick, but I believe that it would be more viable if it had a better recovery option.
its typying is really good defensively (one of the few pokemon that resists boltbeam) and the analytic ability does make up for the lack sp.atk investment.
I can see it working in OU as a slow bulky attacker.
I tried using this set
Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Analytic
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 124 HP / 132 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Protect
- Flash Cannon
- Discharge
- Body Press
this set is nothing but a gimmick, but I believe that it would be more viable if it had a better recovery option.
its typying is really good defensively (one of the few pokemon that resists boltbeam) and the analytic ability does make up for the lack sp.atk investment.
This is perhaps one of the realest things I've seen . When the shitposter starts talking about metagame shit, you know shits getting real.
I legit am so tired of all of this metagame bullshit talk about A is broken and B has no counters and C + A makes C broken, and of course, can't forget about D also being broken. You people are demanding a response to Gliscor and Roaring Moon and this and that. Ya'll are all team Ban Gholdengo and Ban Gliscor -- with no in-between about banning both simultaneously. Can't you CLEARLY SEE that we can't suspect everything all at once? Yet if the OU Council was to quickban everything, there would be even more of an outrage in the player base. Finchinator, Ausma, SetsuStsna and anyone else apart of the OU Council is trying their best, man. But they're not doing it fast enough for you. They're not satisfying your demented want for power. This forum alone doesn't determine a metagame, but it is where most of the talk about bans and changes are. The lot of you guys are being so toxic about literally everything and being so impatient for no reason whatsoever. What you can do is try and find something that can succeed in this metagame in spite of the power in it. Oh wait I forgot you're too busy acting like a child fighting over an obvious problem. I already had my break from OU, so here's what I suggest to you toxic people:
Get off the OU Forum. Go outside for once. And stop -- just STOP being so fucking toxic. Everyone here can agree with me that every single repetitive argument about what's broken in gen 9 so far is just over it. It's always the exact. same. thing. And every single time it's always the same answer.
At this rate, I just give up. It's times like these that I wish this forum was locked so that people can try and think about what they're doing
There's very much a sunk-cost fallacy at play. A lot of people dedicated to Smogon are doing so because they've already put in a lot of time and emotional energy into making it work, and the fact that we've reached a point where it seemingly isn't, and we're essentially fighting with the game itself, understandably is pushing them to breaking point. There really is no easy answer here on what to do.
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