what kind of cookies are you making bro, they're not supposed to do that
wow, so dark and edgy, they should call you hisuian samurott
Are you accounting for dex cuts.
Probably not since that would need another stat, what percentage of Pokemon available are from the current generation. And yes, with the current limited Pokedex the current generation of Pokemon is going to have an inflated influence at the start of a gen and slowly drop as time goes and more Pokemon get added by DLC (as an aside I think this is a good thing since it lets the new Pokemon get time in the spotlight before they get pushed down by the historical best of the best). When the generation started we had 218 fully evolved Pokemon (might have miss counted by a couple and I'm not accounting for extra forms such as Rotom adding +5) with 68 of those being Gen 9 so 32% roughly of the starting OU should have been Gen 9 Pokemon all things equal. That represents the maximum possible share of Gen 9 and even that is 10% lower than the current share. I think it's safe to say that even accounting for the cuts Gen 9 is having an outsized influence on competitive play.
Well put. Yeah im not counting for dexit, not sure how you would without changing the discussion to natdex or pure theorymon. But also dexit existed for gen 8 and it doesnt have nearly the same issue as gen 9.
Okay so this is my first time sharing a replay so here goes nothing:
Damn, theI've been thinking a lot about why it's so hard to find a good direction for balancing the current metagame. Because while there is a lot of consensus that the metagame is in a bad spot, there is a lot of argumentation on what the cause of the problem is, and hence what is the correct course of action. Pretty much any set of suspects or quickbans in any order would raise more complaints then consensus. Admittedly, I'm not a great player, so everything I'm about to say is a parroting of various more experienced player's opinions (whose forum posts I have read).
I think this dynamic of "what is the real issue" is highlighted in the current roaring moon suspect. Most people admit moon is strong, rather centralizing, and isn't some sort of keystone holding the meta together. But there is still a sizeable DNB camp, and all of their arguments seem to fall back either explicitly or implicitly on the idea that moon isn't the core issue. Some variant of, "sure, moon is strong, but it's only conditionally strong because the meta is broken/over-centralized due to X." I'd say this is a valid line of reasoning because of the current state of the meta.
Usually suspects are pretty linear. Most of SS's suspects were fairly clear cut before and after scenarios (is the meta more or less centralized without Urshifu-S or not? Vote accordingly). Even when there were multiple overpowered threats at a time, it seemed pretty straightforward to test them one at a time since their broken-ness didn't seem contingent on anything else. This is not true in SV, and I'd argue the main reason SV feels so hard to fix is because there are three core architypes of broken that each contribute differently to the over-centralized nature of the tier, and each must be dealt with mostly independent of the other tiers.
Those different architypes are as follows.
The Three Axis of Evil in SV OU
1. The 6 Brokens
The six brokens are
These are the Pokemon that may be broken in the traditional sense. Too strong, too fast, too low opportunity cost, too difficult to reliably check, etc. You may disagree that all or any of these are strong to the point of being banworthy, at least by themselves. Or you may argue some other pokemon not listed needs to be banned as well. The point I'm trying to make here is that there are at least 6 pokemon I have seen or heard at least one good player want banned/suspected or eventually banned/suspected. At the same time, for each of these pokemon there is a sizeable contingent of players who will vouch for them to remain in SV OU, even kingambit.
2. Hazard Stacking
The main culprits areand
, but I'd also put
here since I saw somebody say a big reason you need to run boots on non ho-offence is because you get smashed by webs otherwise. Not sure if this is true, but I thought I'd mention it.
This is pretty straightforward. As the argument goes, hazard stacking is so strong that you must run HO to prevent spikes and make games short or run boots fat to ignore spikes because hazard control is so bad. Since we can't add more hazard control, we should ban the setter or the blocker to alleviate hazard pressure.
3. Tera
Banning tera is actually talked about a lot less now than it was before DLC 1, but the point still stands that a tera ban or restriction could make a lot of the 6 Brokens and maybe even a couple of banned pokemon balanced again.
Why it Matters (And why fixing SV is so complicated)
The reason I split the broken elements of the metagame into these three categories is to illustrate that there are three fundamentally different forces that could be the cause of SV OU's centralization. And one of the reasons its so hard to balance is because nobody knows which one to prioritize first. For example, most people would say ban Kingambit, but a fair few people don't want a Kingambit suspect and instead want a tera one, with teras ban removing the necessity to ban Kingambit. Some people want the hazard elements gone first to see if balance is still chocked out of existence without constant hazard pressure, and if it isn't perhaps most of the 6 brokens don't need to be banned. And some want most or all of the six brokens banned, because maybe then there will be more opportunities to spin and thus hazards won't be so oppressive. There is no objective or clear right answer about what to prioritize, complicating matters.
What makes matters worse is that all three of these solutions (banning broken mons, hazards, or tera) could work. I want to emphasize that fact, because most people argue that another solutions to theirs won't lead to a balanced metagame and so we should go along with their solution. But it's also possible that banning either the brokens, or the hazards, or tera, or some combination of the three leads to a balanced and competitive metagame, entirely different than another balanced and competitive metagame that could've existed if a different combination of things had been banned. What this means is that the current suspect criteria of "is X too strong for OU" may not be sufficient for future suspects, since multiple different paths could lead to a balanced result.
I want to emphasize that everything I said in that last paragraph is ENTIRELY HYPOTHETICAL and by no means probable, but it is POSSIBLE. And I think it should be considered, because something like Gen 5 OU exists in its current state because a balanced metagame was pursued by complex banning weather as opposed to something else.
To complicate matters even further, within each of these subgroups the way in which to alleviate the problem is unclear. Tera is no simple thing to ban, since some people just want a restriction, which would alter the metagame in different ways. Banning Gholdengo versus banning Gliscor would both hurt the hazard game, but in drastically different ways. And as seen in the roaring moon suspect, there is almost no consensus on which of the six brokens is the most deserving of the next suspect, and which ones deserve a ban.
I write this post to try and put to words what I think a lot of people implicitly know about SV OU and why it's so hard to fix, hopefully so there can be a more productive forum about how to solve the Gordian knot that is this metagame.
Any critiques about my analysis are welcome, as it's hardly comprehensive and is comes from a complication of forum posts I've read rather than some tangible firsthand knowledge of the game.
Have a good day.
I dont know this months usage stats, but you need to ask yourself this. What does air balloon sub/protect weezing do if gliscor is not on the opponents team. Which is likely 60% of teams. Neutralising gas is still a good ability but you're relying on toxic orb to damage gliscor, how do you damage or disrupt anything else?
I don't believe you're too far off, but I do think the issue with Gliscor is precisely the fact that he doesn't really get worn down by passive damage/knock off, which is an important avenue to beat those fat mons (and the reason Magic Guard Clefable is STILL a bastard). Ting Lu, Dondozo, Tusk, you get the picture. People often mention Gholdengo, but though the noodle-man is a factor for sure on the hazard stack specifics, that is only part of why Gliscor is a bitch.
drop in usage? I mean 16% is still very good but nowhere near what it used to be. I'm sure and + booster any many other things hamper it, but it wasn't as bad in post home where all the same threats where relevant... (note that oct usage stats are coming soon!!)
preforming as a better Wisper that it. Don't even get me started on Sash + DD, I have seen that on high ladder so more for some reason...
I've heard people say this about Porygon-Z but Pult really is the ultimate "give it an inch, it'll take a mile" mon in terms of one buff being needed to break it. I think you kinda have your finger on the pulse when it comes to why it's fallen off a bit compared to HOME. It just doesn't appreciate a lot of the meta trends rn, besides maybe the fact that Garg and Ting-Lu are less common. Knock Off is everywhere again and its speed is slightly less amazing this gen between Booster mons (including rmoon now), Gambit's suckers, Zama, and now Sticky Web if it's not running HDB. That being said, it's still Pult, and it can still hold its own as a pivot or wallbreaker; there's a reason it's A+ rank on the VR. But I can see why it's fallen from being a top 10 mon usage-wiseView attachment 564497
Are we going to talk about
Specs is its most viable set, then maybe band for revenging but its a tera hog, and the utlity sets are really bad as Gambit kills you anyways as well as
But in OMs, pult dominates. Just getting rid of that shitty ability does so much for it. Then again, Clear Body is seeing more usage thanks to it ignoring the speed drop from webs. If you want to check out how silly op pult is in oms, give this thread a read. Its really informative for all you you OU heads. https://www.smogon.com/articles/oms-keep-breaking-dragapult. <-- super cool read!!
P.S. why is everyone so serious on this thread? I'm trying to lighten the moon with some memes :)
I agree with some of this but I feel like we should be tackling all of these broken threats (Gliscor and Spikes in general/Webs/Veil) at the point that's common among all of them (besides setup sweepers but i think those should go as well and will be more obvious once we get back to a meta where balance is viable) The point of commonality really exists in Gholdengo. Light Clay/Webs weren't really broken in any OU prior to this gen, and I don't really see why we should be considering it as broken now when there IS something that is new that is contributing to it being seen as broken (as well as spike-stack in general which is the more pressing matter)
. I personally think hazard stacking is bad with any of them to face, all forms of hazard stacking even Glimmora teams really just ruin balance's viability unless they love boots on every mon. I know Gliscor *feels* the most impactful right now when we play, but keep in mind so much of the tier is already warped around what works in and around Gholdengo so you won't feel its presence until its gone.
(moving this discussion to the correct thread because even though i like how you managed to fit roaring moon in here this is not relevant to the suspect)If you look at the OU Viability Rankings, something becomes abundantly clear.
Hazard Management Methods which bypass or otherwise threaten Gholdengo:
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*
*
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*
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Hazard Management Methods That Lose Outright to Ghold
*
*(no Thief)
It's pretty clear to me that Gholdengo is not the issue with the hazard metagame in this tier, and the people who insist it is are probably the same people who leaned on Corviknight as a crutch during Generation 8. Gholdengo has been mostly fine all Generation and it's clearly Gliscor, a spike-setter with infinite sustainability that comes in on itself, that is the main offender. No other hazard setter can achieve feats like setting up 3 spikes, getting them Court Changed, and then coming in to setup another three reliably. Even if you slot Ice Spinner on Tusk (lets be honest, mandatory right now), Gliscor just eats it, toxic's the Tusk and clicks Protect to take a net 50% that it can heal later against most physical attackers in the tier, winning the trade. The proof is in the pudding; Zamazenta used to run Band and now can only run boots. Sneasler used to run Protective Pads and now can only run boots. Even Kingambit, a Steel-type, these days seem to be mostly boots. Without Gliscor this becomes so much less of a problem. Sure, a Samurott-Hisui can set up a few hazards reliably, but it'll probably die doing it, meaning the problem goes away once you remove the hazards left behind.
It's not like Ghold going even really helps that much for Corv vs Gliscor. Corv comes in, and gets knocked while Defogging, which when hazards are so easy to set seems like a winning trade to me. It's not like Corv can threaten Gliscor at all, you're just letting it heal, losing your item, and giving it a free switch and therefore momentum into anything that beats Corv. In theory, Gholdengo shouldn't even be a great counter to Corviknight and Scizor, as they can U-Turn on the obvious switch and gain momentum while popping the likely balloon. The problem is, Corviknight is forced to run Iron Defense in this meta to cope with the insane physical threats such as... the one this suspect thread is about (which I recognize and apologize for the off-topic rant).
If you wanna say Ghold is broken for shit like breaking stall with NP Psyshock, as someone who uses stall fairly often I would retort:
1. Good stall teams all run Tera Dark Blissey these days
2. Psyshock Ghold is suboptimal into most other things, being a dedicated stallbreaker isn't ban-worthy or else mons like Hoopa-U and Ursaluna would be on the chopping block
Clearly to me, this mon is a positive contributing force to the meta (imagine fighting an Amoongus without it. Not fun.), and its versatility opens up a lot of doors in teambuilding, which I like. As I said, it hasn't been a problem until now, and maybe getting rid of the clearly-warping Michael Jordan of Spikes and Healing first is the right move. If Ghold is still broken after that, maybe, but, there are clearly far bigger meta warpers to address first, such as (to keep this on topic), tera-abusing set-up sweepers like Roaring Moon.
Pult is still bullshit imo, particularly against many balanced squads that elect not to run Garganacl or Kingambit. Specs pult has no switch-ins, forcing you to run crap like Tera Dark Gholdengo in order to not get 6-0'd. I have been trying to get suspect reqs and doing it with balanced feels very hard because Tera Ghost Specs Pult is quite common on low ladder and these teams often don't have the tools to deal with it too well outside of their own Tera. Clefable gets completely bopped by Tera Ghost Specs Shadow Ball, as does Clodsire.View attachment 564497
Are we going to talk about
Specs is its most viable set, then maybe band for revenging but its a tera hog, and the utlity sets are really bad as Gambit kills you anyways as well as
But in OMs, pult dominates. Just getting rid of that shitty ability does so much for it. Then again, Clear Body is seeing more usage thanks to it ignoring the speed drop from webs. If you want to check out how silly op pult is in oms, give this thread a read. Its really informative for all you you OU heads. https://www.smogon.com/articles/oms-keep-breaking-dragapult. <-- super cool read!!
P.S. why is everyone so serious on this thread? I'm trying to lighten the moon with some memes :)
That's dope. For real, really good to have you guys working. When I last played we were still in Gen 5 and the then/now contrast is absurd.
I dunno man. Clodsire? It can take a hit for sure
)How much is Gholdengo paying the council to downplay its terrible crimes and release propaganda on other mons as distraction? This menace must be stopped!
I'll take it to policy review when I get the chance. But no, I haven't rephrased anything you've said. I get that the mod was implemented with the knowledge that it was a mod; that's not the point. My argument is that it was the wrong decision to mod the simulator, irrespective of its competitiveness. Please also don't act like you haven't been cherry picking or selectively responding. I'll drop it, whether you choose to respond at this point or not, as you're right that this is the wrong place to discuss.
I doubt we're getting Gambit's retest with this DLC. Glis is all but locked to be next and we have two other mon that are further up the line than the King. Couple that with the proximity to the previous test and the fact that, imo, the reset should only happen after we know if Tera is sticking around or not given many voted DNB because of it so having that figured out first is the more prudent way to go about things imo.
Think it might be worthwhile to invest a bunch of evs into speed, around 88 evs or so, to outspeed max speed Kingambit?
Personally, I haven't had too many issues with Gambit against Milotic regarding it outspeeding, so I prefer to keep the defensive EVs; Kingambit doesn't have a chance to 2HKO with Kowtow Cleave until 4 allies fainted on Supreme Overlord (14.1% chance), and 5 allies fainted is 74.2% chance
