Your account is only ten months old, but the issue with your posts tends to be the mere ten seconds you take to think about them rather than the account’s age.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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I think there'll be a better picture of this after the tera issue has been discussed. For now, I think being kinda ban-happy during DLC1 is the way I want to see the tier go
I'm of two minds about this because I was also a new player running the most suboptimal gengar sets of all time in early XY, and it helps when people give actual advice about teambuilding and so on, but having a "lurk moar" attitude about all this also prevents terrible posts like a lot of these from being made. just go look at the stunfisk reddit if you want to see people who get all their info about OU from youtubers and memes that they repeat until people actually believe them (eg that power creep is so bad that "perma-ubers" like landoI/genesect/etc have a chance at dropping without MAJOR shifts in the meta/mechanics)
Anyways, I feel like the problem is whenever someone logs on to argue with Smogon policy like yes, we are going to ban things, stop calling it a “slippery slope” it’s not
That's a fair point. I haven't seen said player I was talking about for a while, so I hope they're lurking and learning how to get good. I know I was filling up the forums when I first joined and am trying to focus more on lurking and learning as I try to improve my spot, as I'll be able to contribute better if I do so. (it ain't going well at all lol).
Edit: Actually, is there any chance we can make the simple questions simple answers forum more available and eye-catching for new players? If that happens, it could help those new players improve faster and keep this forum a little less full
both gholdengo & gliscor, within the context of the current meta, need to go. without getting into good as gold, gholdengo is & has been an overbearing offensive threat due to its bulk, typing, multitude of sets, ease of setting up, and how well it takes advantage of tera. other posters have outlined the justification for the removal of gliscor already, so i won’t go into that.
my issue is the reluctance to get into a serious discussion of the place spikes within the metagame, & just how skewed towards setting & keeping hazards vs removing them is in the generation.
along with the release of SV, we saw an unprecedented cut to the availability of staple & splashable removal options such as torn, fini, zapdos, lando-t, & corv (super bad & not enough even were gholdengo to be banned), alongside a colossal increase in distribution of spikes, many of the recipients being high-viability pokemon.
even before the advent of spikes gliscor, most bulkier teams ran multiple boots users, as many as 5 on some stalls, as recognition that consistently keeping hazards off the field was a non-starter, especially over longer timescales.
on the other side of the coin, teams that didn’t go down that route were predominantly focused around stacking hazards with h-rott or ting-lu. this was a precursor to what has been exacerbated by gliscor.
i don’t think that banning gliscor & gholdengo would be an adequate response with regards to correcting the hazards game in this generation. it is clear to me that spikes are tremendously overcentralising due to the lack of sufficient counterplay.
i really hope that both the community & council will entertain the idea of a more radical course of action on this issue, as i see it being the only one that can work towards normalising the meta in the long term.
my issue is the reluctance to get into a serious discussion of the place spikes within the metagame, & just how skewed towards setting & keeping hazards vs removing them is in the generation.
along with the release of SV, we saw an unprecedented cut to the availability of staple & splashable removal options such as torn, fini, zapdos, lando-t, & corv (super bad & not enough even were gholdengo to be banned), alongside a colossal increase in distribution of spikes, many of the recipients being high-viability pokemon.
even before the advent of spikes gliscor, most bulkier teams ran multiple boots users, as many as 5 on some stalls, as recognition that consistently keeping hazards off the field was a non-starter, especially over longer timescales.
on the other side of the coin, teams that didn’t go down that route were predominantly focused around stacking hazards with h-rott or ting-lu. this was a precursor to what has been exacerbated by gliscor.
i don’t think that banning gliscor & gholdengo would be an adequate response with regards to correcting the hazards game in this generation. it is clear to me that spikes are tremendously overcentralising due to the lack of sufficient counterplay.
i really hope that both the community & council will entertain the idea of a more radical course of action on this issue, as i see it being the only one that can work towards normalising the meta in the long term.
HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT OBAMA
Ah shit, now we only have 24 hours before the piss droplets hit the Earth.
The length of time someone has had an account isn't really indicative of anything. I made this account over 3 years ago, and lords knows if I actually tried to talk about substantive issues with the meta I'd basically just be talking out of my ass. I know game design, I can theory craft, and I talk through procedural things, so thats what I focus on when I post.
Speaking of procedural, whichever between Gliscor and Ghold should go next should be whichever is better for a short term improvement. It potentially could end up being the last of the suspects for this period of the meta if the DLC is announced to release in mid December and regardless I imagine if either of them gets banned they'll be unbanned with the soft reset that is happening with DLC2. All the more so if Defog is a TM and a lot of old users get it back. Between the two it is clearly a divisive topic who is worse for the current meta, though the current voting consensus says Gli. I also think that banning Ghold would result in a much large meta change since nothing interacts with hazard removal the way it does and its removal has more long lasting impacts and such a change is better saved for DLC2 when we're dealing with a more final version of the Gen 9 meta.
Speaking of procedural, whichever between Gliscor and Ghold should go next should be whichever is better for a short term improvement. It potentially could end up being the last of the suspects for this period of the meta if the DLC is announced to release in mid December and regardless I imagine if either of them gets banned they'll be unbanned with the soft reset that is happening with DLC2. All the more so if Defog is a TM and a lot of old users get it back. Between the two it is clearly a divisive topic who is worse for the current meta, though the current voting consensus says Gli. I also think that banning Ghold would result in a much large meta change since nothing interacts with hazard removal the way it does and its removal has more long lasting impacts and such a change is better saved for DLC2 when we're dealing with a more final version of the Gen 9 meta.
this is true. my account isn't even a year old and… actually maybe the guy had a point
When people write posts like the one that started this debate, they are talking less about new players who may be bad at the game and actually want to learn (mons is quite complicated as far as competitive games go; a lot of strategies that seem good at first glance are suboptimal, plus learning about things like momentum and when to make trades vs when to not), and more about the inflammatory posters who confidently assert the most incorrect things and refuse to take criticism when they're wrong. These people always existed but it seems like more and more they're posting in the dedicated OU threads instead of on GameFAQs/Youtube/wherever else. I might just be viewing that last part with rose-tinted glasses though, nostalgia is a disease after all
alolatales was the veil user that could enable RM, not abomasnow, sorry to inform you friend
I agree that Spikes should be banned this generation considering there is no removal. With the DLC we saw widespread distribution of Knock off as well, which means the single thread preventing Hazards from becoming as overwhelming as they are currently (boots) is easier than ever to remove. A lot of standard teams just crumple up as soon as boots are gone and while Corv can work as sufficient removal vs non-Gholdengo teams (and even vs dengo teams in some cases), centralizing the meta on 1-2 viable hazard removers doesn't seem ideal to me + Corv would prefer running ID + BP imo to handle threats such as Gambit better (and that set also gets way better in non-Ghold meta too). I don't think simply banning Gliscor, Ting-Lu, Ghold, and Samurott-H will neccisarily solve the issue too, since Chomp gets spikes, Clod does too, as does Meow, though top players consider these Pokemon on a more manageable level compared to Gliscor, Ting-Lu, and Samurott-H.
That being said, considering that people have been pushing a spikes ban for years across different gens, (which also had way worse removal) and nothing has been done seriously about it there, I don't know if action will happen in this case either unfortunately.
(made by me, btw)
Even tho I personally dislike with the moon agreement, It's time we move on and finally tackle hazards, which mean we suspect either Ghold or Gliscor, I do think Gholdengo should go first, both have their pros and cons, but gliscor with no moon and no dengo would make the meta even fatter and slower, gliscor going away would just mean we have to endure ting lu hstack again, but spikes ban is not that necessary, its just that we lack removers, and banning dengo could give us AT LEAST 1 and easier time spinning. I do believe both need to go fucking now
And yes, I will make another one of these for the imminent round 2 of tera, where we will be going full tribalism and toxicity
nice try, you think i'm gonna date someone who gets tired of hearing me talk about pokemon? that's filter number one, my friend
I don't really have a strong opinion about which should go first, but I'm leaning towards agreeing w Finch about Gliscor being the major threat to tackle. SV OU has a lot of obnoxious hazard setters, and Ghold enabled them even before DLC1, but Gliscor has been overcentralizing since it came onto the scene. The other ones at least had some glaring flaws (Glimmora and Hamurott are kinda frail, Ting-Lu is slow and has no reliable recovery), but Gliscor is essentially the perfect hazard setter, even without a direct recovery move in the form of Roost (1/16 vs 1/8 makes such a difference, not to mention the poison immunity and the fact that it avoids spikes). The best comparison would probably be to Deoxys-Defense in older gens, as it feels like there's not much you can do to prevent it from just using its utility moves w/ impunity. We can evaluate Dengo's effects on the hazard meta after that
This prolly gonna be 15 minutes of being passively-aggresively told about how you should just play ADV until the Gen 9 hazard metagame isn’t a degenerate hellhole instead of complaining about it all the time. Not even by the girl or some shit, just Jimothy Cool with him saying “this is insane” every 30 seconds and occasionally going into tangents about Gholdengo paying everyone off to ignore his misdeeds.
Honestly, while gholdenjoe is a major problem, I think banning it is a bandaid solution to the hazards problem. Banning gliscor is also a bandaid, albeit a slightly larger one imo. There’s so many strong hazards setters that is pretty easy to outpace removal options even with both of them gone.
I think there’s room for a discussion on a spikes suspect, but that might be too extreme
I think there’s room for a discussion on a spikes suspect, but that might be too extreme
Quoting this, but speaking generally: if Stealth Rock, a much more contentious addition to the game with less history then Spikes and historically much better distribution and ease of setup, was never able to get enough support for any actual testing and at best occasionally got ladders without it (also during generations without stuff like HDB and much worse hazard removal options), then trying to constantly call for Spikes bans has even worse odds of happening, especially if it's trying to be suggested before removing shit like Gholdengo and Gliscor
Stealth Rocks was introduced only two gens after Spikes, and Gen II/III had very few setters. That difference in history doesn't actually mean much.
you'd be surprised how many major wounds can be held together with two band-aids, actually
Do you like, not actually understand how big the difference between gen 3 --> Gen 4 is? Or the context that Gen 3 Spikes exists in? Or read anything else in the post aside from the first line before you rushed to post this?
Yay, we're free from Roaring Moon. Now... who to target next? Who is more troublesome? The Golden Nepo Baby who hates to see things spin and loves foggy days, or the annoying scorpion bat that barfs hazards like a drunk who had a heavy lunch?
Maybe I can finally enjoy Skeledirge in OU now that he won't die to Proto Knockignore the existence of Waterpon
Maybe I can finally enjoy Skeledirge in OU now that he won't die to Proto Knock
I do think that Gholdengo + Gliscor should probably be the first resort in terms of tackling this issue, but this is hardly the first time Spikes has proven overcentralizing. Gens 3 & 5 (as past gens) saw a ton of former OU staples nearly or entirely invalidated due partially to uptick in Spikes, and gen 4 debatably fits in too. I don't think it really matters past gen though, moreso what's going on this gen. And I do think that both hazards with their current distribution, strategies and counterplay are becoming too much. It's forcing boots on a ton of mons, even rocks-resistant and (!!!) grounded Poison types in some cases.
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