hard to have a full suspect on a generational mechanic when dlc2 could be in a month and there is much more support for other suspects
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
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All right y'all, you may find this annoying but I'm about to give my opinions on the current metagame.
Metagame enjoyment - 7
I know that this is probably a bit too high for it but besides gliscor and gholdengo (and gambit a bit, but I have a whole rant about that fucker), the metagame is pretty good. Though of course, those two are pretty bad for my enjoyment.
Metagame balance - 6
Bit less than enjoyment because FUCK Gliscor, no seriously, it just makes my experiences worse and cheese string man is annoying on different levels.
Quick bans handling - 7
I think overall that the quick bans have been pretty good but I would enjoy them being a bit more aggressive. However, I don't, and let me repeat this DON'T want something like the kokoloko tiering system because to me, that's way to authoritarian to keep the playerbase intact.
Gliscor - 5
FUCK THIS BITCH. Sorry, had to get that out of the way. My main problem isn't that gliscor can easily get up spikes, although that is a problem. My main issue is that it has the tools to do that AND everything else. It could be a spikes machine, a swords dancer or a disrubtion mon, and you don't know until it shows it's hand multiple times. Another issue is that to defeat gliscor, your team is going to be severly crippled, meaning the rest of the oppossing team can clean up. If tusk is having to run ice spinner just to not get completely walled by gliscor, and it isn't even working, that shows an issue. "Just use a pokemon with special ice/water moves", yeah but that shouldn't be something you have to force yourself into. A lot of OU mons are weak to ice/water, but having to run that specifically because you will otherwise get walled by gliscor is not a remedy. And again, you will get crippled by gliscor before then.
Manaphy - 3
Although this could be a problem in the future, this is not a priority. Sure can manaphy sweep teams with just a few turns, yes. But it has been doing this for generations and despite getting take heart, I don't think this is overwhelming. Maybe it's because I tend to run pokemon with water absorb/storm drain, but this is something to be looked at after gliscor and gholdengo are banned.
Gholdengo - 5
I rescind my claim that getting rid of gliscor or gholdengo will make the other better to deal with. Gholdengo is a bastard that forces very awkward plays/team compositions. It's presence is too constricting on hazard removal and stuff like ribombee and gliscor can set up hazards too easily. To be clear, I don't think that banning gholdengo will make gliscor managable, it will just show that gliscor is also problematic. Now, if it was simply blocking rapid spin or the chesse string man was bad in other non-hazard removal denial aspects, this would be alright. However, it's typing and stats make it also either an elite defensive or offensive presence. Get this shit out of here.
Ogerpon-Wellspring - 4
This is most likely a issue, but it again is not a priority. Once the three g pokemon go (Golduck is too powerful for this metagame), this should be looked at. Although tera dondozo/alomomola, amoonguss and dragons can potentially stop it (wait, amoonguss has moon in it, that shit is being banned soon, mark my words), this depends on it's coverage options. However, it is stopping manaphy from destroying the tier so it does have defensive merit.
Sneasler - 2
Okay, I get it Finch, you don't like Sneasler. For real, this is straight up not a problem. Sure, can acrobatics unburden sets destroy unsespecting players, yes, but that is just pokemon. You can be swept by arbok of all pokemon (It almost happened to me but I luckily had gholdengo to carry me). This isn't an issue, and is not going to steal games.
Kingambit - 5
*Takes deep breath* FUCK THIS SHIT. I have never felt such primal rage against a pokemon since I laid my eyes on watchog, and if you've seen watchog, you know how much I hate this. My main issue is actually sucker punch. Yes, supreme overlord is bullshit, but without sucker punch, gambit would be a healthy presence and I might even say, a great mon to have. With sucker punch, it can beat pokemon it shouldn't normally be able to and creates 50/50 scenarios, which I just HATE. "Oh, but it's a glue pokemon and is holding the metagame together." Okay, but a glue mon can still be a negative presence. Just because the glue holds things together for five seconds, then allows the wood to fall apart and oops, I now have acid burns from the glue, doesn't make it good. This should have been banned a while ago and I hope it leaves for ubers to rot very soon.
Tera blast - 3
My main issue is more with tera but I do want to test out a tera blast ban. I'm more on the idea that we implement tera preview, but with the upcoming 19th tera type, this could be a possible solution. However, if either of these don't work, than tera should go. It gives too many mindgames and breaks way too many pokemon.
So yeah, rant over, my order of suspects would be 1 Gliscor 2 Gholdengo 3 Kingambit 4 Ogerpon-Wellspring 5 Tera blast 6 Manaphy 7 Sneasler.
Thank you for coming to my ted talk.
On a scale of 1-10, how enjoyable do you find the current metagame?
4 - its very samey feeling and still doesn't feel that skill based compared to previous generations.
On a scale of 1-10, how competitive and balanced do you find the current metagame?
5 - Tera is not and won't ever be competitive, go next gen if we aren't going to target it until its basically over. There's nothing competitive about guessing teras, getting flipped on matchups, having team comps broke by unexpected teras, and in general tera at the right moment by the opponent can feel like a major cock block to any fun or innovative strats you're cooking, its hard to take this tier seriously now but its also hard not to.
Aggressive tiering
3 - We don't need more quickbans, more suspect test? sure, quickbans? no, the issue is the suspect test are either so useless or come so late it doesn't matter by that point. They should be back-to-back, have a plan on who needs tested next before the previous ends, and if you want to say "let the meta stabilize" first, fucking extend the suspect thread lock out by 1 week prior then at least confirm and lock it in for action.
And for fucks sake bring back suspect test ladders... what are we testing with the current system???? how crazy threads can get? We're not testing shit by basically doing a ranked reset, fucking show the other side of the bridge where we get to play the format without the threat before we vote... tera would've went a lot differently if we did things even remotely correct.
Suspect test are tried and true, they only sucked this gen cause for some reason we forgot how to format them.
4 - without a doubt the most centralizing problem rn, i don't need to say much why.
3 - I kinda forgot about it tbh
2 - I genuinely think this is stupid and changes nothing, Gholdengo isn't broken on its own, it'd be broken for being overcentralizing and I ain't seeing the overcentralization, hazards removal just sucks this gen. I seen someone mention glimmora would mortal spin better... but reminder more glimmora = more hazards so ???, scizor can run defog but lost roost this generation, its utility sets aren't going to bring it up from UU and whats crazy to me is on smogon dex, for both UU and OU, there isn't a single utility set with defog in X/Y, S/M, S/S, or even in UU S/V.. idk if that's an oversight cause I am aware of defog scizor being pretty good, but lets not pretend scizor will save the day once gholdengo goes. Corviknight is the only one that makes sense to me rising but then you're seeing corviknight every since game because its the only good defogger like lol... there's no winning with the hazards issue... gliscor is bullshit on its own, gholdengo achieves nothing, maybe crazy idea; look at hazards themselves!
Ogerpon-Wellspring
2 - Its not as urgent as the rest but maybe later on
2 - Its just not urgent enough to me right now
4 - Definitely more deserving then moon
Tera-Blast
1 - Christ don't bother. We'll get volcarona and regieleki back.... and fuck everyone else when most of the broken tera abusers still around don't even abuse tera blast. Even Espathra would be heavily nerfed by tera-blast removal... and still be too broken cause fairy boosted dazzling gleam lets is muscle what tera blast fighting doesn't exist for anyways.
Write-in
Starts with a V and rhymes with olcarona
4 - its very samey feeling and still doesn't feel that skill based compared to previous generations.
On a scale of 1-10, how competitive and balanced do you find the current metagame?
5 - Tera is not and won't ever be competitive, go next gen if we aren't going to target it until its basically over. There's nothing competitive about guessing teras, getting flipped on matchups, having team comps broke by unexpected teras, and in general tera at the right moment by the opponent can feel like a major cock block to any fun or innovative strats you're cooking, its hard to take this tier seriously now but its also hard not to.
Aggressive tiering
3 - We don't need more quickbans, more suspect test? sure, quickbans? no, the issue is the suspect test are either so useless or come so late it doesn't matter by that point. They should be back-to-back, have a plan on who needs tested next before the previous ends, and if you want to say "let the meta stabilize" first, fucking extend the suspect thread lock out by 1 week prior then at least confirm and lock it in for action.
And for fucks sake bring back suspect test ladders... what are we testing with the current system???? how crazy threads can get? We're not testing shit by basically doing a ranked reset, fucking show the other side of the bridge where we get to play the format without the threat before we vote... tera would've went a lot differently if we did things even remotely correct.
Suspect test are tried and true, they only sucked this gen cause for some reason we forgot how to format them.
4 - without a doubt the most centralizing problem rn, i don't need to say much why.
3 - I kinda forgot about it tbh
2 - I genuinely think this is stupid and changes nothing, Gholdengo isn't broken on its own, it'd be broken for being overcentralizing and I ain't seeing the overcentralization, hazards removal just sucks this gen. I seen someone mention glimmora would mortal spin better... but reminder more glimmora = more hazards so ???, scizor can run defog but lost roost this generation, its utility sets aren't going to bring it up from UU and whats crazy to me is on smogon dex, for both UU and OU, there isn't a single utility set with defog in X/Y, S/M, S/S, or even in UU S/V.. idk if that's an oversight cause I am aware of defog scizor being pretty good, but lets not pretend scizor will save the day once gholdengo goes. Corviknight is the only one that makes sense to me rising but then you're seeing corviknight every since game because its the only good defogger like lol... there's no winning with the hazards issue... gliscor is bullshit on its own, gholdengo achieves nothing, maybe crazy idea; look at hazards themselves!
Ogerpon-Wellspring
2 - Its not as urgent as the rest but maybe later on
2 - Its just not urgent enough to me right now
4 - Definitely more deserving then moon
Tera-Blast
1 - Christ don't bother. We'll get volcarona and regieleki back.... and fuck everyone else when most of the broken tera abusers still around don't even abuse tera blast. Even Espathra would be heavily nerfed by tera-blast removal... and still be too broken cause fairy boosted dazzling gleam lets is muscle what tera blast fighting doesn't exist for anyways.
Write-in
Starts with a V and rhymes with olcarona
I agree Gliscor is a pain 
what's so problematic about volcanion? it's not even ou and i find it pretty manageable whenever i encounter it
This is headass.
We have had suspects back-to-back at a faster pace than ever (2-3 days in between, likely going to have a third consecutive suspect, we will have been in a suspsext >80% of the time for over a month period).
Your own proposal contradicts your sense of pace in the next sentence, so I don’t know what possible solution you want beyond something quite literally impossible.
Suspect ladders have failed every time and are generally off the table. This has been discussed at length and they don’t address anything you’re complaining about either, but rather end up taking more time while also splintering the tier and playerbase.
I think, in addition to already breaking regieleki and volcarona, it's pushing moth really close to the edge in dlc1 OU.
Aight let's talk about this:
5/5 - Despite believing that Gholdengo should get banned first, I still strongly feel that this mon needs to go ASAP. It is too overwhelming in this current metagame, between receiving massive buffs with Spikes and T-Spikes, having free passive recovery and status immunity, AND a potential SD set that can break through several would-be checks.
5/5 - I like Gholdengo, I think it is a very good mon that can fit an incredibly vast amount of roles in a team, from a bulky check for two of the most threatening mons in this meta (Valiant and Sneasler), to a Scarf revenge-killer and even a wallbreaker against Stall teams with the NP Psyshock set. Still, its ability has turned this meta into a complete shithole full of hazards left and right, with no proper way to answer that play-style. For this simple and straightforward reason, this mon needs to go.
3/5 - I think this mon has the potential to deserve a suspect test, although I still have to decide whether or not I'd be voting ban for it. The Stored Power, Iron Defense+Take Heart set is so incredibly stupid and annoying that it can completely turn around the game if you don't have a proper answer for it. The only real way to stop this mon after it starts to setup is by Hazing it, Tricking it with a Choiced item or praying for a crit.
2/5 - I've already said my opinion about WellPon, but to put it shortly I actually believe it is an overall good and yet not overwhelming presence in this meta. I think that there are enough available answers for it, without needing to warp the teambuilding process around it. I don't believe it should get suspected right now, definitely NOT before Gholdengo, Gliscor and Gambit.
5/5 (or 4/5 maybe, I already forgot) - Haha sucker punch go brr. Seriously, this mon is such a cheap way to turn around a game in your favor. It awards bad plays and it has the potential to reverse sweep an entire team because of its shitty priority move. This mon is probably one of the main reasons, if not the main reason for people hating on Tera.
3/5 - Despite being a huge threat and having an ugly ass design, I'm not quite sold on it deserving the ban hammer yet. I need some more time to think about it.
Terablast 1/5 - This move is the last thing I'm worried about when it comes to Tera. If you wanna do something then just ban the whole thing.
5/5 - Despite believing that Gholdengo should get banned first, I still strongly feel that this mon needs to go ASAP. It is too overwhelming in this current metagame, between receiving massive buffs with Spikes and T-Spikes, having free passive recovery and status immunity, AND a potential SD set that can break through several would-be checks. 5/5 - I like Gholdengo, I think it is a very good mon that can fit an incredibly vast amount of roles in a team, from a bulky check for two of the most threatening mons in this meta (Valiant and Sneasler), to a Scarf revenge-killer and even a wallbreaker against Stall teams with the NP Psyshock set. Still, its ability has turned this meta into a complete shithole full of hazards left and right, with no proper way to answer that play-style. For this simple and straightforward reason, this mon needs to go. 3/5 - I think this mon has the potential to deserve a suspect test, although I still have to decide whether or not I'd be voting ban for it. The Stored Power, Iron Defense+Take Heart set is so incredibly stupid and annoying that it can completely turn around the game if you don't have a proper answer for it. The only real way to stop this mon after it starts to setup is by Hazing it, Tricking it with a Choiced item or praying for a crit. 2/5 - I've already said my opinion about WellPon, but to put it shortly I actually believe it is an overall good and yet not overwhelming presence in this meta. I think that there are enough available answers for it, without needing to warp the teambuilding process around it. I don't believe it should get suspected right now, definitely NOT before Gholdengo, Gliscor and Gambit. 5/5 (or 4/5 maybe, I already forgot) - Haha sucker punch go brr. Seriously, this mon is such a cheap way to turn around a game in your favor. It awards bad plays and it has the potential to reverse sweep an entire team because of its shitty priority move. This mon is probably one of the main reasons, if not the main reason for people hating on Tera. 3/5 - Despite being a huge threat and having an ugly ass design, I'm not quite sold on it deserving the ban hammer yet. I need some more time to think about it. Terablast 1/5 - This move is the last thing I'm worried about when it comes to Tera. If you wanna do something then just ban the whole thing.
Regieleki won't be seen in ou without tera blast, at least not with tusk and gliscor running around so I don't think this would be a particularly impactful change. Secondly, volc was never broken because of tera blast necessarily, it was mostly the full def willowisp morning sun qd + fire or bug stab with defensive tera that broke it. That set was so uncompetitive because if u guessed the tera wrong it would wisp your physical attacker and then get like 6 qds. I've also never seen tera ground tera blast moth a single time(no joke), even though I've hear about it a bit so maybe it is strong idk.
Bigger picture though, even if those pokemon are broken because of tera blast, can we really say that it means we should ban it? It seems to contradict previous banning precedents because the matter of fact is that the majority of pokemon are not broken with it. It would be like banning rage fist instead of annahilape even though primeape is still bad even with rage fist. This especially true once you consider that tera blast breaks like, 3 pokemon if youre being generous and isnt broken on literally every other mon.
Woohoo free clout post. I kinda already forgot what I voted but it was something mostly like:
Metagame enjoyment: 3
Banning Roaring Moon, while definitely a good call, doesn't feel like it changed anything about the metagame. We just got rid of the like, 12th incarnation of Busted Setup Sweeper in the tier. Same old, same old. Hazards are crazy strong, hazard removal is extremely difficult, Kingambit reverse 4-0's your team after going Tera Fairy and everyone thinks Booster Energy is the problem for some reason.
Metagame balance: 4
I accept at this point Tera isn't a straight up negative thing, but it's still wildly unbalanced and makes already-good mons even better than they would be against their competition. It's a big part of why everything is centralized still. Also, see above.
Aggressive tiering action: 10
PLEASE. It is impossible to fix OU by going through new threats one at a time. The last survey showed that there were multiple problem mons that people overall agreed were as bad as each other. We may not even have time to get to all the issues before Indigo Disk if we don't trade out our bullets for buckshot.
5
From day one this thing has been high up on every VR, and its metagame presence just warps the entire tier around it. It's true that Gholdengo is only half the reason that hazard removal is so difficult this generation and a lot of it is how hazard removal is distributed so scarcely. However, this single mon is responsible for the other half of this and is the sole reason Corviknight is so mid this gen. That might be fine if it was kinda worthless outside of its ability, but it has just enough speed to be annoying and its super wide movepool with NP/Recover is gross. Gotta go.
4
I love Gliscor. Top five mon for me. My baby. But its presence is insanely toxic heh this gen and I have really changed my mind about it in a month. It's incredibly mindless to use, difficult and finnicky to play against, requires a lot of over-preparation to deal with, and the things it's weak to are difficult to use against it. I'm only rating it one point lower than Gholdengo because I think Gholdengo does more to enable Gliscor than vice versa, but I think both are banworthy either together or in a metagame where the other is already gone.
3
Very very good at using the above two in order to pull off some disgusting stuff. I think it is kinda dependent on them though and it loses a favorable matchup if Gliscor goes so I don't think this is priority number one. Maybe like, priority number five, if it comes to it, maybe.
4
I feel like once other broken stuff's usage tapers off or gets banned this thing is gonna get nasty. It's already one of the premier "Guess my Tera type correctly or get swept and even if you guess right it's still 50/50 if you get swept anyway" mons.
5
Kingambit has been exactly as broken as it was at the start of the generation for the exact same reasons. It's not doing anything new, so I don't feel obligated to write a new paragraph about it.
2
Right now, this thing is an annoying gimmick, but once Gliscor and Gholdengo get banned, it loses its two worst matchups, and it's going to get way worse. Fine for now, but keep an eye on it.
Tera Blast: 4
I don't like Tera and I'll take whatever action I gotta to limit its presence in the tier.
Metagame enjoyment: 3
Banning Roaring Moon, while definitely a good call, doesn't feel like it changed anything about the metagame. We just got rid of the like, 12th incarnation of Busted Setup Sweeper in the tier. Same old, same old. Hazards are crazy strong, hazard removal is extremely difficult, Kingambit reverse 4-0's your team after going Tera Fairy and everyone thinks Booster Energy is the problem for some reason.
Metagame balance: 4
I accept at this point Tera isn't a straight up negative thing, but it's still wildly unbalanced and makes already-good mons even better than they would be against their competition. It's a big part of why everything is centralized still. Also, see above.
Aggressive tiering action: 10
PLEASE. It is impossible to fix OU by going through new threats one at a time. The last survey showed that there were multiple problem mons that people overall agreed were as bad as each other. We may not even have time to get to all the issues before Indigo Disk if we don't trade out our bullets for buckshot.
5From day one this thing has been high up on every VR, and its metagame presence just warps the entire tier around it. It's true that Gholdengo is only half the reason that hazard removal is so difficult this generation and a lot of it is how hazard removal is distributed so scarcely. However, this single mon is responsible for the other half of this and is the sole reason Corviknight is so mid this gen. That might be fine if it was kinda worthless outside of its ability, but it has just enough speed to be annoying and its super wide movepool with NP/Recover is gross. Gotta go.
4I love Gliscor. Top five mon for me. My baby. But its presence is insanely toxic heh this gen and I have really changed my mind about it in a month. It's incredibly mindless to use, difficult and finnicky to play against, requires a lot of over-preparation to deal with, and the things it's weak to are difficult to use against it. I'm only rating it one point lower than Gholdengo because I think Gholdengo does more to enable Gliscor than vice versa, but I think both are banworthy either together or in a metagame where the other is already gone.
3Very very good at using the above two in order to pull off some disgusting stuff. I think it is kinda dependent on them though and it loses a favorable matchup if Gliscor goes so I don't think this is priority number one. Maybe like, priority number five, if it comes to it, maybe.
4I feel like once other broken stuff's usage tapers off or gets banned this thing is gonna get nasty. It's already one of the premier "Guess my Tera type correctly or get swept and even if you guess right it's still 50/50 if you get swept anyway" mons.
5Kingambit has been exactly as broken as it was at the start of the generation for the exact same reasons. It's not doing anything new, so I don't feel obligated to write a new paragraph about it.
2Right now, this thing is an annoying gimmick, but once Gliscor and Gholdengo get banned, it loses its two worst matchups, and it's going to get way worse. Fine for now, but keep an eye on it.
Tera Blast: 4
I don't like Tera and I'll take whatever action I gotta to limit its presence in the tier.
I believe it has the potential to break much more stuff than that, since you can literally matchup-fish whatever you like and your opponent has no way to predict whether or not you're running Terablast in your sets. In practice though I feel like it is more commonly run by mons without a true reliable STAB move (see Physical Pult, Thundurus and Lando). I don't really play lower tiers or Ubers though, so I do not know if it is more spammed over there compared to OU. The only mons that come to my mind right off the bat when it comes to using Terablast for coverage are Regieleki (Ice) Volc (Ground), Kingambit (Fairy/Flying) and Iron Moth (Ground).
luckie
unluckiest player
Is this question on here because of how one sided the Bloodmoon suspect was? (and I'm assuming there were people who didn't think it should've even gotten suspected in the first place and gotten quickbanned)
I haven't really had a problem with the quickbans this gen and think the council have been doing pretty okay when it comes to what gets suspected and what gets ejected.
I would have to disagree that matchup fishing with tera blast could break more mons because fundamentally the opportunity cost to running tera blast is huge. Even if it is worth running it to beat a certain counter, it still woudn't be broken just because of the fact that in other matchups you literally didnt put a move on your pokemon. Of course, there are pokemon where it may be worthwhile to break through one specific counter or check because it is the only counter or check, but in practice this usually means that the pokemon itself is broken and not necessarily tera blast. The one example where this isnt true is regieleki because it has a plethora of counters(ground types) that all get blanket beaten by tera blast, but thats a really polar example that I dont think many mons have the capacity for.
They were actually talking about Volkraken
, which is a huge ass threat in CAP mons (I guess IDK)Volkraken would be heat if it were real, the GOAT Water/Fire type Pokémon.They were actually talking about Volkraken
I gave Tera Blast a 5. I agree the opportunity cost is huge, and I do understand the merit of giving lower tier Pokemon additional coverage. It also may be unfortunate for the lower tiers, as certain Pokemon will be significantly worse without Tera Blast. Additionally, certain Pokemon without reliable STAB moves will lose access to the option such as Dragapult, Thundurus-T, etc.
That being said, this move definitely has some unhealthy interactions with the game as a whole by giving Pokemon coverage that they aren't suppose to have. Kingambit and Polteageist are two obvious mons that come to mind, which setup and use Tera Blast to completely drop their counters like Great Tusk with SD -> Tera blast, Tera Electric Manaphy saw some use at a point, and Tera Blast Volcarona / Regieleki are two of the more extreme examples imo. I do think our tier somewhat needs Volcarona too (can't believe I'm saying this) for its defensive utility and a Tera Blast ban would make it more palatable to include back as well. I think there is a difference between the Pokemon broken by Tera Blast vs those broken by Tera as a whole.
That being said, this move definitely has some unhealthy interactions with the game as a whole by giving Pokemon coverage that they aren't suppose to have. Kingambit and Polteageist are two obvious mons that come to mind, which setup and use Tera Blast to completely drop their counters like Great Tusk with SD -> Tera blast, Tera Electric Manaphy saw some use at a point, and Tera Blast Volcarona / Regieleki are two of the more extreme examples imo. I do think our tier somewhat needs Volcarona too (can't believe I'm saying this) for its defensive utility and a Tera Blast ban would make it more palatable to include back as well. I think there is a difference between the Pokemon broken by Tera Blast vs those broken by Tera as a whole.
sorry but sneasler is far from just an annoying gimmick and is why ill be giving the more "need more aggressive tiering" option a 10. Yes I agree, sneasler is probably the lowest priority out of everything here but "annoying gimmick" really undersells it. sneasler is probably the best HO pokemon without Roaring Moon, Rilla + Sneas teams are absolutely insane and are seeing high usage for reason. Being good as fuck doesnt make you broken outright but dumb bs hax move + be able to use tera on terrain teams in such a way where it can troll wins even without dire claw would be enough to warrant a suspect traditionally. Sneasler is absolutely a mon that needs to be looked into but will take a while to get too given how like i said, is probably lowest priority.
Right now, this thing is an annoying gimmick, but once Gliscor and Gholdengo get banned, it loses its two worst matchups, and it's going to get way worse. Fine for now, but keep an eye on it.
i advise people to just vote what they think on this survey rather worry about factors such a priorities. if you think things like Sneasler, Kingambit, and Ogerpon are broken, give it a high rating. Worrying about "well this needs to go first so this needs should be a lower on the scale" is not going to help us reach a good metagame any faster as the surveys won't reflect what the community thinks needs to go as well they should. I expect the hazard situation with gliscor/gholdengo (rightfully so) to absolutely dominate discussion for the next while but, there's also a lot of problematic aspects in the tier with not a ton of time, and with DLC 2 coming "Winter" thats likely to bump up our issues even more. With the way the DLC schedule is set up with recent pokemon games, we can't afford to sit around are argue about what singular pokemon we need to look into next when there's so many issues. So yeah, if you think something is broken right now, vote to reflect that and vice versa.
ok so i lied about voting 5 on everything
quickbans - 10, only because the scale stops at 10. the council is doing a fantastic job but the survey/suspect/cooldown process takes just a bit too long for my liking, so i'd prefer to give things a bit of a turbo-charge
- 7 at least. this thing was ubers from day 1 even though it was overshadowed by bax for a couple hours. if i could travel back in time and assassinate one person, it would be my past self for laughing when gliscor first showed up on the survey
- 4. definitely a problem, but its name doesn't start with g and neither do any of its common abbreviations, so it dodges the bullet this time
- 6. this is my most radical change from the last survey because i've finally come to realize how much of a problem ghold is and what a terrible, stupid environment it's created. i love the mon, i love the design, it's one of my favorite mons of the gen, but good lord get it out of the tier and don't bother dropping it for dlc2
- 4. again, definitely a big problem, but our immediate focus should be the hazard twins and kingambit
- 2. it's fast and strong and has setup and an rng-sleep attack that i admit is kinda cheese sometimes even though it isn't strictly reliable, so i can't in good conscience say it's completely reasonable, but i've just never had any trouble with it before. maybe i'm just lucky good gravy i tried this shit myself during the gliscor suspect and it's just actual cheating, get this thing the fuck out of here
- 5. get rid of it. please. just let me play a match that has a real endgame where strategy and positioning matter instead of sucker punch 50/50s. i wish duels were still legal so i could challenge the idiot who designed supreme overlord to pistols at dawn, except i get 5 other guys on my side and i get an extra pistol for every one who goes down
tera blast - 1. the reasoning behind every other move ban has been "the move is uncompetitive/broken on everything that runs it", which isn't true with tera blast. i don't think we should give harsher treatment to this move just because it's inextricably linked to a controversial mechanic. besides this, it just wouldn't make any sense to do any tiering action to anything tera-related before dlc2
quickbans - 10, only because the scale stops at 10. the council is doing a fantastic job but the survey/suspect/cooldown process takes just a bit too long for my liking, so i'd prefer to give things a bit of a turbo-charge
- 7 at least. this thing was ubers from day 1 even though it was overshadowed by bax for a couple hours. if i could travel back in time and assassinate one person, it would be my past self for laughing when gliscor first showed up on the survey - 4. definitely a problem, but its name doesn't start with g and neither do any of its common abbreviations, so it dodges the bullet this time - 6. this is my most radical change from the last survey because i've finally come to realize how much of a problem ghold is and what a terrible, stupid environment it's created. i love the mon, i love the design, it's one of my favorite mons of the gen, but good lord get it out of the tier and don't bother dropping it for dlc2 - 4. again, definitely a big problem, but our immediate focus should be the hazard twins and kingambit - - 5. get rid of it. please. just let me play a match that has a real endgame where strategy and positioning matter instead of sucker punch 50/50s. i wish duels were still legal so i could challenge the idiot who designed supreme overlord to pistols at dawn, except i get 5 other guys on my side and i get an extra pistol for every one who goes downtera blast - 1. the reasoning behind every other move ban has been "the move is uncompetitive/broken on everything that runs it", which isn't true with tera blast. i don't think we should give harsher treatment to this move just because it's inextricably linked to a controversial mechanic. besides this, it just wouldn't make any sense to do any tiering action to anything tera-related before dlc2
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Agree with everything except Gliscor, once Gholdengo is gone, Gliscor should be much less of a problem, as will the other Spikers.ok so i lied about voting 5 on everything
quickbans - 10, only because the scale stops at 10. the council is doing a fantastic job but the survey/suspect/cooldown process takes just a bit too long for my liking, so i'd prefer to give things a bit of a turbo-charge
tera blast - 1. the reasoning behind every other move ban has been "the move is uncompetitive/broken on everything that runs it", which isn't true with tera blast. i don't think we should give harsher treatment to this move just because it's inextricably linked to a controversial mechanic. besides this, it just wouldn't make any sense to do any tiering action to anything tera-related before dlc2
"this is dumb cheese, i hate it, get it out of here, 3/5" immediately followed by "i dunno, maybe a suspect at some point, 4/5" is really funny to me for some reason. not sure whether it has anything to do with the fact that i normally would have gone to sleep two hours ago, or the fact that i've been waiting for a plane for 5 and a half hours instead of the 2 i was supposed to and i'm slowly going insane
Tera Blast: 4/5, I feel a suspect on this is deserved at some point. I am not sure if now is most appropriate or how the playerbase feels, but I am glad this is included.
This question’s inclusion was my suggestion, with the idea that the tier was full of extremely polarizing, overbearing threats that cumulatively create a centralized metagame and backed by the idea that many people felt several things were broken. Ursaluna-Bloodmoon was not really a reason this was considered by the council, but the fact it was so overwhelmingly supported for a ban does show that there are/were things in the metagame so egregious that investing into suspects can be potentially extraneous.
The core idea behind this however is to expedite progress without forcing ourselves to invest a ton of resources into suspecting problem Pokemon that people already generally perceive as a negative presence in the metagame back to back and over a long period of time, letting us search for balance and enable lasting metagame growth without focusing solely on suspecting.
I appreciate your points, and agree that I kinda undersold Sneasler in my post, but I don't think the way I voted is inconsistent with what you're advocating here. I don't think Sneasler is as bad as everything else here, since it actually has relatively consistent losing matchups (to Gliscor and Ghold in particular) and that's rarity among the top tiers in OU right now. If Gliscor and Ghold get banned, which I think it's safe to say they will by now, Sneasler suddenly has a much better matchup spread and has much more potential to be obnoxious. So, with the metagame as it is, I think Sneasler's a 2, but advocate for watching it closely later on once some bans start rolling out as it will probably get much more obnoxious.
Edit: I also voted 10/10 for aggressive tiering action, so we might be on the same page here and just not saying it the same way?
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Top part of the post about sneasler is replying to you, bottom part is a general message
Relevant stuff I can remember
Quickbans and similar: 7/10
Faster action is great, maybe not on the mass ban train as much as some, but some QBs for sure
Gliscor: 5/5
Everyone has to overprepare and even then it always makes incredible progress while avoiding weaknesses of its would-be counterparts
Kingambit: 5/5
Not banning it was a mistake, and though it may *seem* like it is easier to deal with now, beware that we are already some time into the meta and everyone has adapted and, as above, overprepared for it. I am sure I'm not falling in hyperbole when I say pretty much everyone reading this has had to tailor multiple counters at once and even then so many games are reduced to 50/50s. Kingambit endgames are just frustrating and unfun to play.
Gholdengo: 4/5
Still a bastard. Shapes the meta, can run a thousand roles, and has one of the most busted abilities introduced so far when it comes to singles. Should go too
Waterpon and Manaphy: 3/5
I'm not a fan of pokemon that threaten ending the game in a single setup. Though they are under the "requires action" banner, they are strong representations of their archetypes in which counterplay works (Take Heart is kinda BS tho lol), whereas, for clear comparison, Gliscor and Gambit just muscle past it, and Gholdengo has enough versatility that it is difficult-to-impossible to answer all with a single mon.
Tera 2/5
Tera Blast 1/5
I'm of the mind that Tera is a gimmick that changes the fundamental core of the original games and as such will cause strong interactions and unfamiliriaty. Strong interactions are not enough to warrant banning a whole generational mechanic (M-Lucario got banned, not the whole mechanic), and unfamiliriaty is just... normal for any weird mechanics. Wouldn't find it strange to see tiering action on it.
Sneasler: 1/5
Wouldn't mind seeing it go. However, it may be my personal bias speaking, but I have never once felt it was overpowered. It is, however, annoying, but if we were to gauge annoyance the same as power then Serene Grace should go first. Pretty sure Jirachi has caused some arteries to pop lmao
edit for clarity
Quickbans and similar: 7/10
Faster action is great, maybe not on the mass ban train as much as some, but some QBs for sure
Gliscor: 5/5
Everyone has to overprepare and even then it always makes incredible progress while avoiding weaknesses of its would-be counterparts
Kingambit: 5/5
Not banning it was a mistake, and though it may *seem* like it is easier to deal with now, beware that we are already some time into the meta and everyone has adapted and, as above, overprepared for it. I am sure I'm not falling in hyperbole when I say pretty much everyone reading this has had to tailor multiple counters at once and even then so many games are reduced to 50/50s. Kingambit endgames are just frustrating and unfun to play.
Gholdengo: 4/5
Still a bastard. Shapes the meta, can run a thousand roles, and has one of the most busted abilities introduced so far when it comes to singles. Should go too
Waterpon and Manaphy: 3/5
I'm not a fan of pokemon that threaten ending the game in a single setup. Though they are under the "requires action" banner, they are strong representations of their archetypes in which counterplay works (Take Heart is kinda BS tho lol), whereas, for clear comparison, Gliscor and Gambit just muscle past it, and Gholdengo has enough versatility that it is difficult-to-impossible to answer all with a single mon.
Tera 2/5
Tera Blast 1/5
I'm of the mind that Tera is a gimmick that changes the fundamental core of the original games and as such will cause strong interactions and unfamiliriaty. Strong interactions are not enough to warrant banning a whole generational mechanic (M-Lucario got banned, not the whole mechanic), and unfamiliriaty is just... normal for any weird mechanics. Wouldn't find it strange to see tiering action on it.
Sneasler: 1/5
Wouldn't mind seeing it go. However, it may be my personal bias speaking, but I have never once felt it was overpowered. It is, however, annoying, but if we were to gauge annoyance the same as power then Serene Grace should go first. Pretty sure Jirachi has caused some arteries to pop lmao
edit for clarity
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