Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

I want starmie back;-;

 

[YNM]

"GLISCOR IS SUCH AN UNHEALTHY AND TOXIC PRESENCE IN THIS MET-"

252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 1024-1212 (289.2 - 342.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Yeah that thing dies to every Ice move

 

[Sahvyt]

"GLISCOR IS SUCH AN UNHEALTHY AND TOXIC PRESENCE IN THIS MET-"

252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 1024-1212 (289.2 - 342.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

the tera water in my pocket:

 

[CheesyBrie]

While we're complaining about things we want back and wish worked:
I wish there was another option for hazard removal.
I wish Ice Spinner removed hazards. It removes Terrain, but not hazards, which is just weird and niche this gen, except in Ubers with Miraidon (if that's even relevant up there idk).
I Whirlwind blew them to the other side of the field.
I wish Explosion destroyed all screens and hazards, because it is LITERALLY AN EXPLOSION.
I wish Ice resisted Grass (not meta defining, just literally how nature works. Every see grass grow through an inch of snow? No.)
I wish Fairy wasn't designed to be "the competitive type" and I hope this new type isn't designed the same way (if it is, I'd guess it's immune to Dark, Immune to Ice, resistant to Rock and Ground, and weak to like... Idk Poison again, Normal, and Grass?)
I wish Weavile got U-Turn. Seriously, Sneasler gets it, but Weavile doesn't?
I wish I wish I had a Dracovish to Fishious Rend the Tier.
I wish Toxic wasn't something healing pokemon could learn (Nurse Chansey knows how to poison people and actively does so regularly? Now THAT'S toxic!)

But ultimately, I wish and hope everyone has a wonderful day

 

[Ibaragi]

"GLISCOR IS SUCH AN UNHEALTHY AND TOXIC PRESENCE IN THIS MET-"

252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 1024-1212 (289.2 - 342.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You forgot the +1 from Calm Mind, of course:
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 1396-1648 (396.5 - 468.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And if they Tera Water, then:
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Freeze-Dry vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Gliscor: 444-524 (126.1 - 148.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
There's no problem or incoherence in none of this and it works perfectly in OU, trust me.

[inb4; kids not getting the reference making fun of the set]

 

[YNM]

the tera water in my pocket:

The Freeze-dry that's about to make you forfeit the game:

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

"GLISCOR IS SUCH AN UNHEALTHY AND TOXIC PRESENCE IN THIS MET-"

252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 1024-1212 (289.2 - 342.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

freeze-dry, dude. freeze-dry. kills gliscor just as dead without the miss chance, and annihilates both the primary tera type (water) and the secondary (dragon)

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

can't cm alongside eith.specs

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

can't cm alongside eith.specs

you weren't here for early sv discussion but someone was claiming glaceon was good and using calcs with +1 and specs to "prove" their point, among other things

 

[Atomic289]

The Freeze-dry that's about to make you forfeit the game

Yes, alolan-ninetales can:
252 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 420-496 (119.3 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Tera Water Gliscor: 210-248 (59.6 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Does this mean u run 252 spa(or life orb for same result) instead of light clay/bulk? You can but honestly i don't think this makes gliscor more balanced at all considering gliscor can just switch out and come back later.
I think people should stop finding niche mons like glaceon that too, specs, to hit on 4 times weakness of gliscor when gliscor can...just switch out?

 

[Highv0ltag3]

the tera water in my pocket:

Freeze-Dry

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Yes, alolan-ninetales can:
252 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 420-496 (119.3 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Tera Water Gliscor: 210-248 (59.6 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Does this mean u run 252 spa(or life orb for same result) instead of light clay/bulk? You can but honestly i don't think this makes gliscor more balanced at all considering gliscor can just switch out and come back later.
I think people should stop finding niche mons like glaceon that too, specs, to hit on 4 times weakness of gliscor when gliscor can...just switch out?

Fun fact: EVERY pokemon can switch out And come back later since gen8

 

[arnimacarni]

Competitive Pokemon was so stagnant until switching was introduced in Gen 8 bless GF for Gen 8

 

[Atomic289]

Fun fact: EVERY pokemon can switch out And come back later since gen8

Yeah and what will ice beam of specs glaceon do to a mon not named gliscor? Nothing too valuable that was my point, the switching part was for the guy who mentioned specs glaceon.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

while i appreciate araquanid's return, I regret the lack of cooler mons like absol Or rhyperior. I surely appreciate incineroar being back tho

Rhyperior is in that list too

 

[Magcargo]

I would like to share my thoughts on why a Gholdengo ban is currently the only way to significantly improve the metagame.

Firstly, I would like to go over other potential bans, and why their impact would either be negative or insignificant.


-Gliscor

I believe a Gliscor ban would affect the metagame negatively. Withouth Gliscor in the tier, we lose one of the most consistent team structures in Gliscor + HDB spam, where Gliscor functions as a knock absorber. Although some people would consider the removal of Gliscor a nerf to the Hazards + Gholdengo team structure, it would merely be replaced by Ting-Lu or Samurott-H, basically making us go back to the Pokemon Home metagame with a few new Pokemon. I believe the Pokemon Home metagame was one of the worst states SV OU has ever been in, and would much preffer a Gliscor + Ghold choke on the metagame than a Ting-Lu + Ghold or Samurott-H + Ghold infested SV.


-Manaphy

While, I do believe Manaphy is somewhat broken, in the sense that it does not have a solid hard counter, I believe most defensive teams are still able to deal with it through the use of a few niche sets, while offensive teams are constantly able to revenge kill it or shut it down with a faster encore.
A Manaphy ban would negatively affect the metagame, as we would be removing one of the few solid Gliscor checks and one of the few solid stallbreakers. Manaphy also struggles notably in a metagame where Ogerpon-Wellspring is evrywhere, and while I do believe it has the potential to be banworthy in a future metagame, it simply isn´t currently.

-Ogerpon-Wellspring

Similarly to Manaphy, removing Ogerpon-Wellspring from the tier would make us have one less solid Gliscor check. Ogerpon is a very diverse Pokemon, which makes it feel "unwallable". First of all, only grass types are able to consistently "wall it", such as foul play amoonguss or Rillaboom, but it can cripple these with Knock Off, removing their HDB or Leftovers. It also has spikes to force progress against fatter teams, meaning that the only solid defensive counterplay for defensive teams is to keep hazards up, since it can not hold HDB. While I do believe banning Gholdengo could potentially make this Pokemon broken, since it would not be as easily kept in check by hazards, it is not broken in it´s current state, not only being limited by the previously mentioned hazard stack structures but also having it´s fair pool of checks.


-Kingambit

I do not believe Kingambit to be broken in any way. While it did enjoy a decrease in usage from it´s 4 main counters in Great Tusk, Dondozo, Landorus and Moltres, it hated the fact that it´s now easily kept in check by hazards and struggles to easily break Gliscor. Arguments about Kingambit´s "high usage" serve more as arguments for a Gholdengo ban, since the need for a solid Gholdengo answer on balance teams is part of the reason why Kingambit is everywhere. In summary, we voted to not ban this Pokemon in the past and it did not receive ay significant buffs since then; removing it from the tier would just make Gholdengo more overwhelming.


-Sneasler

I never understood why people considered Sneasler broken. It has a terrible offensive typing that makes it struggle into poison types but also both Gholdengo and Gliscor which is the dominant core of the metagame. This pokemon does not lack it´s fair share of counters, it merely prays it can get the right mu fish with it´s Tera type (which a lot of Pokemon do too). I will confess that while Sneasler does not lack counters, it lacks offensive counterplay, being able to easily sweep hyper offensive teams, but even these can easily fit something like Gholdengo and priority spam to deal with it, or use surprise tera to revenge kill it. Removing Sneasler from the tier would not have a significant impact on the metagame as a whole, HO will simply replace it with another Unburden sweeper or Terrain abuser and keep fishing for match-up with Tera Blast mons. I believe Tera Blast ban is a solid option that could balance out Sneasler´s most uncompetitive trait.



Finally, I would like to explain why a Gholdengo ban would actually improve the metagame significantly, unlike banning the previously mentioned Pokemon:



1- Enabling Balance.

It is very hard to disagree with the idea that Balance is currently inferior to Stall or HO in terms of consistency. In this sense, the metagame feels very "Uberesque", as the dominant strategies revolve around either spamming broken stuff, or using Hazard based Defensive teams.
While Balance does have it´s meritts in the current metagame, it´s simply not at the level of the other 2, at least in terms of match-up consistency.
A Gholdengo ban would not only enable balance structures based on Corviknight and unusal Rapid Spinners, but would also free Balance from having to consistently use the same Pokemon, which brings us to Argument 2.



2- Reducing Kingambit Usage.

While I did clarify that Kingambit is not a broken Pokemon in it´s current state, the need to run it on almost all Balance teams feels very opressing and boring for the metagame. All other Gholdengo checks/counters that could fit on balance, are either too passive to justify running Balance over Stall, or too frail to justify running Balance over HO. Clodsire and Iron Moth are 2 solid examples of this respectively.


3- Nerfing Hazard Stack

I probably should have started with this point, as it is the most important for most people. Hazards are at it´s absolute peak in this generation, with all of Stealth Rock, Spikes, Sticky Web and even Toxic Spikes being very impactfull on the metagame. I believe that while Hazard Stacking strategies can be answered with HDB spam + Gliscor/Clefable, it is not healthy for the metagame to be this restricted, as hazard control options that worked well in the past, such as Rapid Spin Great Tusk and Court Change Cinderace keep facing more issues and are getting outclassed by the HDB spam trend.


4- Nerfing Gliscor

This argument obviously relates to the previous one, in the sense that Gholdengo and Gliscor go hand in hand when it comes to making sure that hazards stay on the field. Enabling Corviknight would give the metagame a solid Anti-Gliscor option not named Hatterene, as it is able to Pressure Stall Gliscor´s Stealth Rock/Spikes, and consistently defog on it, while invalidating Swords Dance variants through Iron Defense.

A Gholdengo ban would also potentially enable other Rapid Spinners that could beat Gliscor, such as Cryogonal.

(but that´s just theorymonning at this point).



Thank you for Reading.

I would likely vote DNB on Gholdengo whenever a suspect comes around, but I do see some merit to a potential ban opening up some PU shitters like Cryogonal and Avalugg. Despite their low tier status, I don't think these Pokemon are entirely unsalvagable in OU and have roles they can viably fulfill outside of spinning. Cryogonal is one of the best "cheese" counters with its fast Haze, and does extremely well vs Manaphy due to being faster and actually making decent progress vs it with Freeze Dry. Freeze Dry in general gives it some workable match-ups vs threats like Gliscor, Zapdos, and Pelipper, espicially in a non-ghold metagame. Avalugg is another Pokemon I see having a niche with its titanic bulk. It is heavily bolstered by everyone's favorite mechanic getting rid of its second biggest flaw (after its Spdef) and making it a solid Iron Presser that can 1v1 key threats like Zamazenta, Gambit, and the like while also distinguishing itself from Garganacl with Spin. Ghold definetly is one of the Pokemon severely holding back Pokemon like these from reaching their true potential in the tier (though they'd still have a bunch of roadblocks even it were banned between mons like Dirge, Garg, etc.)

I think Balance (specifically more passive structures) would still have to run Gambit anyways since Specs Dragapult is very difficult to switch into.

 

[Pokemon Trainer: Shadow]

Just realized Ogerpon wellspring resists both of Excadrill's STABs and got very sad all of a sudden....

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

natdex showed the way. Ban ghold=> healthy meta

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

ghold is some restrictive pokemon that prevents hazard removal After they got up, EXCEPT by the allmighty toptier.moldbreaker defog.hawlucha

 

[ianlazerbeem]

I am surprised that blissey managed to stay in OU.
I guess manaphy is scarier than I thought.

Manaphy is not the reason, in fact bringing Blissey into Manaphy is really risky and can cause you to lose, stall is simply a viable playstyle that people are running & Blissey is essential on stall. Note that Toxapex (who matches way better into Manaphy) is right next to Blissey in usage, these two appear on pretty much the same teams

 

[Empress Mobile]

I am surprised that blissey managed to stay in OU.
I guess manaphy is scarier than I thought.

Using Blissey as a Manaphy answer is pretty much an auto-loss. Stall is Manaphy's best matchup by far.

 

[Naraku Kirigiri]

natdex showed the way. Ban ghold=> healthy meta

ghold ban = only mon benefited is corv, there are still no defoggers

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Ah ye this meta has No defog montres Or zapdos And Still you have spinners

 

[Highv0ltag3]

I would likely vote DNB on Gholdengo whenever a suspect comes around, but I do see some merit to a potential ban opening up some PU shitters like Cryogonal and Avalugg. Despite their low tier status, I don't think these Pokemon are entirely unsalvagable in OU and have roles they can viably fulfill outside of spinning. Cryogonal is one of the best "cheese" counters with its fast Haze, and does extremely well vs Manaphy due to being faster and actually making decent progress vs it with Freeze Dry. Freeze Dry in general gives it some workable match-ups vs threats like Gliscor, Zapdos, and Pelipper, espicially in a non-ghold metagame. Avalugg is another Pokemon I see having a niche with its titanic bulk. It is heavily bolstered by everyone's favorite mechanic getting rid of its second biggest flaw (after its Spdef) and making it a solid Iron Presser that can 1v1 key threats like Zamazenta, Gambit, and the like while also distinguishing itself from Garganacl with Spin. Ghold definetly is one of the Pokemon severely holding back Pokemon like these from reaching their true potential in the tier (though they'd still have a bunch of roadblocks even it were banned between mons like Dirge, Garg, etc.)

I think Balance (specifically more passive structures) would still have to run Gambit anyways since Specs Dragapult is very difficult to switch into.

I can definitively see cryogonal working with Ghold ban. Tera Steel levitate can sit on most Gliscor and non Fighting move tusk, sits on Ting-Lu too and is able to threaten other Dragapult with Ice moves in case it tries to spin block.