I know I'm not great or anything, but for the life of me I can't figure out how to beat Garganacl! Good Bulk, status immunity, and Terastilizing makes it impossible to build around, and play against. One turn of set up is all it really needs to steamroll you! How is this thing fair? Sorry for the vent, but I hope thing gets put on the Radar next time.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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Yeah goldengo may be immune to hazard control, but iron treads is a really good answer to goldengo as goldengo can't stay in on it which would force the person using goldengo into a very unfavorable position, as they can't risk switching goldengo back in to block the spin because of earthquake and they can't stay in either.
I hear great tusk is a good answer too, but I haven't used it enough...
Whirlpool has 35 BP and is resisted by Cyclizar
Freeze-Dry has 70 BP and Cyclizar is weak to it
Freeze-Dry obviously does more damage and at this point it's become unclear to me whether you're just trolling
Without even doing calcs, Freeze Dry will do A LOT more damage than Whirlpool. Whirlpool is 35 BP and resisted by Cyclizar, meanwhile Freeze Dry is 70 BP and super effective against Cyclizar, so freeze is expected to do about 8 times more damage than Whirlpool. And if you really want confirmation, I adjusted the stats and typing manually on the calc
252 SpA Iron Bundle Whirlpool vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cyclizar: 39-47 (11.3 - 13.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after trapping damage
252 SpA Iron Bundle Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cyclizar: 314-372 (91.2 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Freeze Dry is 70 power and is only Super Effective on Water type Pokémon.
Ice Beam is 90 power and is better when you are facing any Pokémon type except Water.
Whirl Pool is 35 power and does 3-5 hits.
The Pokémon I was talking about fighting was Cyclizar who is Dragon & Normal.
Freeze Dry is super effective against the things Ice is IN ADDITION to Water. There is no universe in where STAB Freeze Dry from Iron Bundle doesn't out damage Whirlpool.
In addition to what people already mentioned about Freeze Dry hitting types ice is normally super effective against in addition to water. Whirlpool is NOT a multi hit move. It's a 35 BP move that for 4 to 5 turns afterwards it does 12,5% damage per turn
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
You should probably start again from the basics because I think you might have some fundamental misunderstandings about how Pokémon battling works.
Shed Tail + Multiscale = Dragonite Stonks go brrrr
If I had to guess, it's probably because passing a sub with shed tail into a full health dnite allows the sub to benefit from Multiscale, potentially allowing the dnite to get free setup turns behind the sub.
I didn’t know the above things.
New Generation calculator isn’t up for me.
With this new found wisdom, I can change up my Iron Bundle to be more effective.
Sweetness!
I can just replace Whirlpool with Freeze Dry.
Iron Bundle @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- U-turn
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
New Generation calculator isn’t up for me.
With this new found wisdom, I can change up my Iron Bundle to be more effective.
Sweetness!
I can just replace Whirlpool with Freeze Dry.
Iron Bundle @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- U-turn
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
now now, lets not be rude
moving to a (hopefully) more productive topic, what are people's thoughts on garchomp in the current meta, I've had a good deal of success with it both as a spdef mon with both steath rock and spikes and also as a special attacking lure set to bait in and remove great tusk/breloom/corv
They are not the same mon. Dragonite notably has more bulk and multiscale.
Chomp has been great, Dragon/Ground offensively and defensively matches up really well into the meta. It has lots of bait sets and can set hazards while threatening the major hazard setters in the meta. Definitely gonna end up being a staple of OU yet again.
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Improvement! I’m glad. Some additional advice: instead of Scarf, run Specs. Iron Bundle is the second fastest good Pokémon in the meta, so Scarf really only helps against Dragapult and other Scarfers. Specs gives you a massive increase in damage output and makes a well-played Bundle effectively impossible to switch into—even if your opponent does have something that can stomach Freeze-Dry, Ice Beam and Hydro Pump (which is Blissey, Chansey, and basically nothing else), you can just predict the switch-in and U-Turn out.
Also, I wouldn’t get too used to playing Bundle if I were you—it’s absolutely getting banned in the next wave.
As I was looking for off meta alternatives to handle Palafin, I've came across this set and I find this quite hilarious. Want to share it with y'all.
Wo-Chien @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Ruination
- Giga Drain
- Stun Spore
Despite being a Dark type, you can comfortaby take out a Dolphin as long as you are healthy. (They commonly run Drain Punch) Tablets of Ruin will lower it's attack, and from there you will only click Giga Drain. Leech seed and Stun Spore are for general annoyance, Ruination is to prevent getting abused. Its basically a poor Nature's Madness (this move has 90% accuracy) but lets you make progress. This application alone is enough to prevent any bullshit Shed Tail stuff from happening as you instantly break the Substitute so thats a bonus.
Alternatively, this Pokemon also completely shuts down Grimmsnarl, as I've ran into Screens pretty frequently. What you do is just sit still while they are wasting turns setting stuff up. When its time to switch out, boom. You are blocking Parting Shot / Taunt due to Dark typing blocking Prankster and despite the next Pokemon coming in behind screens Ruination still allows decent revenge kill opportunities.
Wo-Chien @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Ruination
- Giga Drain
- Stun Spore
Despite being a Dark type, you can comfortaby take out a Dolphin as long as you are healthy. (They commonly run Drain Punch) Tablets of Ruin will lower it's attack, and from there you will only click Giga Drain. Leech seed and Stun Spore are for general annoyance, Ruination is to prevent getting abused. Its basically a poor Nature's Madness (this move has 90% accuracy) but lets you make progress. This application alone is enough to prevent any bullshit Shed Tail stuff from happening as you instantly break the Substitute so thats a bonus.
Alternatively, this Pokemon also completely shuts down Grimmsnarl, as I've ran into Screens pretty frequently. What you do is just sit still while they are wasting turns setting stuff up. When its time to switch out, boom. You are blocking Parting Shot / Taunt due to Dark typing blocking Prankster and despite the next Pokemon coming in behind screens Ruination still allows decent revenge kill opportunities.
If I may interject, since i figured i should maybe try to take part in those discussions, I don't think that's much of an argument in favor of Iron Bundle but rather the opposite.
As a side note i've been playing competitive for about 10 years now? But never decided to be part in tiering discussions, but that line of logic comes in many shape or forms whenever something balantly strong or broken is being discussed out.
First being, Palafin shouldn't be considered in deciding whether Iron Bundle is healthy for the metagame, as it fails to adress all of the subsequent effects it has on teambuilding and the metagame as a whole. Scarfchomp checking M-Metagross doesn't really make it any less broken, and in the end, tiering decisions must come from weighing out those variables in order to determine if there is satisfactory counterplay in the metagame.
Secondly, while it may be high maintenance or prediction reliant, its duo STABs together are too good, I find Freeze-Dry similarly with Kyurem to really push it to the edge. And as part of my personnal experience, i have personally been pairing it Chilly Reception Slowking (which i don't see too often) in order to freely pivot into it to spam Specs Blizzard, it lets it survive banded Mach Punch from Breloom (unless tera) or it only gets 3hko'd by banded Scizor BP.
If anything, the fact that it doesn't rely on tera works in its advantage, since it opens up the gimmick for one of its teammates.
It may come from my biased POV, as i find Chilly Reception to be absurd (atm im using it with Bax and Iron Bundle) but even without that, the strains it puts on team building are way too much with the current means we have.
I don't even like the idea of calling this "powercreep", we got a lot of really outstanding pokemon powerwise, but people tend to forget what we lost in return ie: Fini, Lando-T, Clef, Heatran, Buzzwole, Ferrothorn, Zapdos or even Melmetal and I must be forgetting a lot more, pre home/DLC tend to be pretty chaotic but we've seen before how the metagame can change after only a few more inclusions. And while i would PERSONALLY find Flutter Mane with Heatran around more bearable, it is fair atm to enact policy and quickban stuff for the current metagame, and then consider what is the best course of action with every card in hand.
I really love Palafin and i think it's pretty stupidly limiting atm, so i wouldn't be surprised but sad to see it gone but so be it. Wouldn't want Koraidon in the tier cause Dachsbun keeps it in check.
Not to say this was the entire premise of your argument since i just wanted to pick up the discussion from there, i see your point of view but it's really hard to justify Iron Bundle's presence with its nearly unmatched speedtier, conditionally good bulk and insane coverage atm even if it keeps Palafin in check tbh
I actually think that Wo-Chien will end up being common in defensive cores once the meta settles a bit. Its defensive abilities are kinda nutty, and it has ruination to chip bulky threats and giga/leech for sustainability. The fact that with heavy defensive bulk investment it can take a +1 drain punch from Palafin nicely demonstrates why it's a nice glue. I really wish it got parting shot tho, I would put it on all my teams.
Palafin-Hero
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Acrobatics
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch
this looks mad ridiculous, but hear me out
not only do u ohko amoonguss with tera flying acro, u also can have a low chance to 2hko shit like dondozo after rocks with ur STAB acro as well. this set can completely shut down frail offense and bulkier builds that usually depend on a check to palafin, which most of them get slammed by acro (amoong, pex, gastro, etc). u still lose to washtom and avalugg though :joy:
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Acrobatics
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch
this looks mad ridiculous, but hear me out
not only do u ohko amoonguss with tera flying acro, u also can have a low chance to 2hko shit like dondozo after rocks with ur STAB acro as well. this set can completely shut down frail offense and bulkier builds that usually depend on a check to palafin, which most of them get slammed by acro (amoong, pex, gastro, etc). u still lose to washtom and avalugg though :joy:
So I was initially pro-Tera, but the more I climb the more it feels like a problem, and I want to do a mini breakdown on which part exactly I'm having problem with.
Out of the all things Tera provided, the Adaptabilty boost is really strong and pushes into a meta that favors offense. It can sometimes feel unfair, but doesn't feel too unhealthy because it is something you can often EV for if you choose to do so.
The access to coverage of any type from Tera Blast can also feel unfair sometimes, but if I do get hit by a surprise coverage move I often don't mind just sucking it up and pretend I got hit by Hidden Power. Personally it doesn't feel too unhealthy, because putting Tera Blast on a mon has the opportunity cost of a move slot, and putting enough pressure on the opponent to Tera another of their mon is a very reasonable punish. Getting hit by a surprise coverage might be unpleasant, but there is still some level of skill expression in terms of maintaining offensive momentum.
EXCEPT...
What is not fine to me is actually just the change in typing itself, as it turns offense vs offense entirely matchup dependent, and one of the biggest offender of this is Roaring Moon. Roaring Moon currently has 2 main Tera types, in Flying and Steel, which expectedly have different defensive checks, which imo feels fine for defensive teams because when I play a bulky team, I don't mind preparing something for Flying Ground coverage, and something to for Dark Steel coverage. But on offense, you tend to prepare less for specific types and more for specific Pokemon.
In the same example of Roaring Moon, Ice is good for Tera Flying, and Fighting priority is good for Tera Steel, and if you happen to run into the one you are not prepared for, you kinda just lose. Even if you prepared for Roaring Moon with both Iron Bundle and Breloom, you can still miss the 50/50 and lose one of your "checks" for nothing. In previous gens, if you can't deal with something defensively, you always had the option to sack something and send in a "revenge killer". Except Tera being a thing means you have to send in the correct revenge killer. The Roaring Moon user in this example is always at the advantage, where the opponent is staring down at a 50/50 at best.
I think the hallmark of a unhealthy mechanic is the lack of a reliable counterplay. A past generation example of what I would consider a "reliable counterplay" would be "Toxapex running Shed Shell to escape Whirlpool Fini". This might feel like an exaggeration, but the 50/50s that Terastalisation forces feels like "Toxapex running Shed Shell to escape Whirlpool Fini, except Shed Shell only success half the time", which is simply unhealthy even if it were not broken.
Out of the all things Tera provided, the Adaptabilty boost is really strong and pushes into a meta that favors offense. It can sometimes feel unfair, but doesn't feel too unhealthy because it is something you can often EV for if you choose to do so.
The access to coverage of any type from Tera Blast can also feel unfair sometimes, but if I do get hit by a surprise coverage move I often don't mind just sucking it up and pretend I got hit by Hidden Power. Personally it doesn't feel too unhealthy, because putting Tera Blast on a mon has the opportunity cost of a move slot, and putting enough pressure on the opponent to Tera another of their mon is a very reasonable punish. Getting hit by a surprise coverage might be unpleasant, but there is still some level of skill expression in terms of maintaining offensive momentum.
EXCEPT...
What is not fine to me is actually just the change in typing itself, as it turns offense vs offense entirely matchup dependent, and one of the biggest offender of this is Roaring Moon. Roaring Moon currently has 2 main Tera types, in Flying and Steel, which expectedly have different defensive checks, which imo feels fine for defensive teams because when I play a bulky team, I don't mind preparing something for Flying Ground coverage, and something to for Dark Steel coverage. But on offense, you tend to prepare less for specific types and more for specific Pokemon.
In the same example of Roaring Moon, Ice is good for Tera Flying, and Fighting priority is good for Tera Steel, and if you happen to run into the one you are not prepared for, you kinda just lose. Even if you prepared for Roaring Moon with both Iron Bundle and Breloom, you can still miss the 50/50 and lose one of your "checks" for nothing. In previous gens, if you can't deal with something defensively, you always had the option to sack something and send in a "revenge killer". Except Tera being a thing means you have to send in the correct revenge killer. The Roaring Moon user in this example is always at the advantage, where the opponent is staring down at a 50/50 at best.
I think the hallmark of a unhealthy mechanic is the lack of a reliable counterplay. A past generation example of what I would consider a "reliable counterplay" would be "Toxapex running Shed Shell to escape Whirlpool Fini". This might feel like an exaggeration, but the 50/50s that Terastalisation forces feels like "Toxapex running Shed Shell to escape Whirlpool Fini, except Shed Shell only success half the time", which is simply unhealthy even if it were not broken.
Not a banworthy Pokemon. More problems on the menu and it’s probably the best stall will get. Don’t look to get it banned.
I saw this set run on a Stall team. It's quite effective at being annoying between Leech Seed and Ruination. Regardless of future actions from the Radar'd Pokémon, do you think that Wo Chien has a place on stall teams? As a definite staple or more of a situational/something that's needs to be built around
A good way to deal with it is using Specs Magnezone. Thunderbolt OHKOs water tera variants, while Flash Cannon KOs those who don't tera. Nacl also Struggles to deal with Taunt users.
I believe being able to resist some of the veeeeery common coverage options in Electric, Ghost, Ground, and Water is surely valuable. All the same you are quad weak to U-turn and weak to Ice & Fire,the moveset you run has shaky accuracies on 3 of its moves and it doesnt have much alternatives as move options. But with the proper team support I honestly dont see why not. Like any Steel type Pokemon covers up like 5 of its weaknesses, shouldnt be too hard to come up with a core that fits.
Its counterpart, Ting Lu, I believe has a greater niche. Comes with an incredible bulk, Body Press, hazards, phazing, Sand Tomb for Trapping (Will test), and Ruination for the progress.
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