i was also theorizing using suicide pokemon like final gambit @ choice scarf with high hp to knock off opponent mon te revive them back with leppa berry/sleep talk
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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yes played with this a lot. It’s limited by the fact that almost every team packs a faster or ghost AND Lucario desperately needs jolly for non-scarf gholdengo.
Otherwise it is extremely powerful vs stall and decent vs balanced teams in the end game, and could solo hyper-offense after a +2 if it wasn’t for the fact that nearly every HO has a way of denying you a chance to use hazards or an HDB user like Chien pao/valiant/dragonite that can take a +2 e speed and OHKO back.
it needs close combat and EQ in the current meta I reckon. Bullet punch just doesn’t have the same impact
Dragonite has a lot of good traits that Lucario lacks, even though Lucario has a stronger espeed after 1 SD. Multiscale is insane when you're passed a sub, and with its natural bulk and resistance laden typing, it has such an easy time setting up. Not to mention tera often letting it turn moves into a neutral hit, often letting it set up an extra DD. In many ways Dragonite has an easier time getting two dances than Lucario has getting once. Not to say it has no upsides, it's non extreme speed moves hit a bit harder because it gets to actually use it's stab.
No, only one thing is problematic with it in OU rn and going to lower tiers for OU issues isn’t how it works at all. The ability isn’t inherently broke.
As we said, we are shifting focus to a Tera suspect and the radar may come back after.
Why are you referencing two tiers that aren't OU, in the OU metagame thread, to make this point? Especially when Speed Boost itself is not broken. This would be similar to banning Sheer Force or Prankster. Great abilities, but not inherently broken. I don't even see the supposed benefit of doing this. What would this accomplish that individual bans could not?
What is the best spread for choice band scizor now?
Is it the old school 248 hp/252 atk/8 spdef adamant nature or the 252 atk/252 speed/4 spdef or is it an entirely new build? Need help.
Is it the old school 248 hp/252 atk/8 spdef adamant nature or the 252 atk/252 speed/4 spdef or is it an entirely new build? Need help.
I saw a pawmot, and it might have been looking for an opportunity to use it, but it never did, but there's probably sets that take it into account
Will work on posting survey results tomorrow morning when I wake up as it’s been a long day today. Stay tuned!
CB Scizor traditionally is a mon who can really run any EV spread and work quite fine TBH.
Full HP works, full speed works, and even something in between, with 20, 24, 44, 212 all being pretty decent speed breakpoints.
Heck, even something like 248 HP / 64 Atk / 192 SpD Adamant can work to deal with Gholdengo better.
Just try to not go below 56 Atk with Adamant and you should be fine tbh.
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I'm mid-ladder, but I've seen probably 10-12 teams out of 70-ish use it. Lots of Leppa Pawmot and a couple of Leppa Trick Room Rabsca too. I can't comment on anything other style since I've very much been building one archetype of teams, but it does make stall a loss on preview against some teams.
In my eyes, you need to a mon to at least revenge if not check every single one of the opponent's team, in order to win a game of equal-ish skills (if your team has nothing that ever beats a viable threat without heavy sacks, it's probably not a great team). With Revival Blessing, you need to keep your team in a position to either beat every single mon twice in a row with one or less sack, or outspeed and kill Pawmot/Rabsca in one shot. The way that tends to play out in stall is a wallbreaker comes out (think Roaring Moon, Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao, pretty much anything that 2HKOs most of the tier from the start), you bring the counter in or (rarely) sack, wallbreaker gets sacked in exchange for half its counter's HP (pretty easily achievable in most cases if you look at the calcs for said wallbreakers). Pawmot or Rabsca comes in, revives it either for free or while sacking said Revival Blessing mon, and can then use it to force at least another sack. And with tera around, it's much easier for them to get a couple revives off if that's the wincon, or force more game-winning 50/50s.
Essentially, with Revival Blessing around the concept of defensive counters is just... invalidated. It also makes defensive wincons very, very difficult to achieve. Like, you essentially cannot afford to make sacks against a Revival Blessing team a lot of the time, because in the endgame they could simply choose whichever of their five other Pokémon is a wincon against the remains of your team. The best way to avoid this is, you guessed it, setup sweepers behind Shed Tail, priority on everything, hazard stack, etc... I personally don't think this is a healthy thing for the meta albeit from a very defense-biased PoV. I'm not gonna claim RB is broken nor that it should be banned. I actually think it's not too bad to deal with if you're running HO. That said, it's just another of many factors that's highly restrictive in team building and makes HO far and away the most consistently viable style.
I do also think it's only gonna get more dangerous the further we get into the meta, however. I think broken-checks-broken setup sweepers might stop it getting out of hand just yet, but I expect that more high-ladder players will start being happy to use a team slot in exchange for one or two revives on the wincon of their choice. It's not like Pawmot is useless outside of it either, since its attack and speed are decent enough to be at least kinda threatening to most, and Rabsca hits well enough and can usually tank one neutral hit minimum. They're not good outside of it or anything, but you're running a single meh team member in exchange for the ability to choose almost always at least one, sometimes two potential wincons to just... bring back in lategame.
if you don’t mind me asking, which ev spread would you prefer? Just curious. Im not sure what 252 speed ev would outspeed with adamant scizor. I never thought of the ev spread for gholdengo. Thank you.
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I feel there are more "frustrating" matters at the moment but I still believe it is a ticking time-bomb. Now it is very hard for Pawmot to have a free turn to click Revival Blessing but the moment the metagame slows down a bit it will become quite a big problem, especially with Regenerator mons eventually becoming more prominent due to the nerf of recovery moves.
The 248/64/196 build is what I have been using most often but an alternative choice I’ve been liking a lot is 248 HP / 56 Atk / 180 SpD / 24 Spe for outspeeding 140 Spe Kingambit, so you can “block” Sucker Punch. Being faster than Corviknight can be good or bad depending on if you want a slower U-turn, but on teams with Annihilape for example, being able to U-turn out faster than Corviknight can sometimes be a good thing.
Anyone else feel like playing stall is just... so much slower? I feel like it takes even longer to win with stall because ways to deal passive damage are more limited. Knock Off to remove HBD or lefties is lacking, less toxic users, rapid spin and defog are everywhere... I feel like I have to play until the patience of my opponent runs out
I feel like pure stall is legit dead after already being pretty shit in gen 8. Defensive balance seems like it replaced stall. But I haven't played too much stall, so it's just limited impressions from my part. What's your take on it?
I feel like pure stall is legit dead after already being pretty shit in gen 8. Defensive balance seems like it replaced stall. But I haven't played too much stall, so it's just limited impressions from my part. What's your take on it?
Stall does look pretty dead, at least as we used to know it. The old stall was kinda do nothing, keep hazards off and just spam knock off and toxic. Now that the distribution for those moves is worse, it's not as easy to be passive anymore. A good stall mon needs to have some threat now, e.g. Skeledirge or Curse Dozo. Keeping off hazards is pretty tough with the golden boy.
Limited availability of mons is also tough, since checks for certain mons or even entire types are just lacking. I wouldn't be surprised to see stall make a return with Home, just in a slightly less passive form than we used to know.
Mons like Dozo, Skeledirge, Garganacl, Clodsire etc. added good options to be fair, they just need some more mons to complement them well.
Limited availability of mons is also tough, since checks for certain mons or even entire types are just lacking. I wouldn't be surprised to see stall make a return with Home, just in a slightly less passive form than we used to know.
Mons like Dozo, Skeledirge, Garganacl, Clodsire etc. added good options to be fair, they just need some more mons to complement them well.
espathra is a ban-worthy pokemon.
she is overpowered, it is nearly impossible to switch to this thing.
the counsil needs to vote for her as sooner as possible.
she is overpowered, it is nearly impossible to switch to this thing.
the counsil needs to vote for her as sooner as possible.
2/3rds of that is weak to fighting. Then you just need Grass, Electric, or strong neutral STAB moves to beat Alomomola. Preferably a special attacker for the latter. Most teams would have this anyway because Dondozo is fairly strong a presence.
Both Alomomola and Ting-Lu are weak to Grass. So again, you have 2/3rds of that core weak to a single type. Keep in mind Avalugg is also typically weaker to special attacks.
Breloom is very good against a lot of prominent pokemon in OU. It is also likely fairly good against this core, but it probably cannot one shot Avalugg or Ting Lu because they have really high defense. Though this might change if you run a Swords Dance set.
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
- Breloom hits all three supereffectively and can Spore one of them
- Hazard stacking prevents them from consequence-free switching, which massively wears down Ting-Lu in particular since it has no recovery; Gholdengo on a hazard-stacking team blocks Rapid Spin from Avalugg and beats it 1v1 in case it’s running Boots (and, you know, hazard stacking with Gholdengo beats most things that aren’t also some form of hazard stacking with Gholdengo)
- Specs Chi-Yu in the sun eats all of these (and literally every good mon in the game except Tyranitar)
- None of them can touch Dondozo unless Ting-Lu’s running Ruination
- None of them can touch IronPress + Salt Cure + Recover Tera Water Garganacl even if Ting-Lu’s running Ruination
- Alomomomomola and Avalugg are significantly weaker on the special side than the physical one, so special wallbreakers in general can blow this core wide open
- Toxic. Literally nothing can cure it once it’s inflicted since Aromatherapy is gone and the only thing that gets Heal Bell can’t access it right now
As a stall player, I can confirm this statement is accurate. Hardcore stall was already not good in Gen8, but it looks like Game Freak went out ot their way to destroy the playstyle. Chi-Yu eats through every defensive wall (it even 2HKOes Blissey with Tera Fire) and Gholdengo denies your entire gameplan, and these are the tiip of the iceberg of issues that stall has right now.
Just play balance or bulky offense, stall is dead :(
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
I mean, I’m confident that Chi-Yu and Gholdengo will eventually get banned, as will all the other stupid HO nonsense like Shed Tail and Revival Blessing. All stall players have to do right now is be patient, and I’ve never met a stall player who wasn’t.
Hazard stall from Gen 4 is honestly my favourite type of stall with Hippowdon/Heatran/Rotom-A/flex/flex/flex core, and defensive Gholdengo kinda works as the spiritual successor to Rotom-A for keeping hazards on the field, so I have been trying to make Gholdengo hazard stall work for quite a while, except every time it transitioned into a BO team halfway because:
1. I had to add something to beat Annihilape, Hatterene and the fish, and
2. I had to fit an offensive answer for the salt and cheese duo (Nacl and Gholdengo)
at which point it just stops being stall
Honestly, the more I play SV, the more I realize that I really need Heatran to be in OU again, because there is just nothing currently that can replace what it does, especially for stall.
Heh, true
Starting out and low on the ladder, but have been having success starting with baxcalibur.
Baxcalibur @ Life Orb
Ability: Thermal Exchange
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Glaive Rush
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
The opponent often doesn't have a counter at the start and switches out and I get a dragon dance off and tera to fairy if I'm concern about a dragon or fairy attack. Is this a good way to start battles? Any good counters?
Baxcalibur @ Life Orb
Ability: Thermal Exchange
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Glaive Rush
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
The opponent often doesn't have a counter at the start and switches out and I get a dragon dance off and tera to fairy if I'm concern about a dragon or fairy attack. Is this a good way to start battles? Any good counters?
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