random question but has anyone tried swords dance greninja? i tried as a joke idk what to think though
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Metagame SV UU Metagame Discussion - The Indigo Disk
- Thread starter Lily
- Start date
id rather use sd quav then... idk phys gren looks like it runs into a lot of power problems
it does..it really REALLY does
You also have decent 4mss. You have sd of course, but then you want stabs, shadow sneak, fighting coverage (low kick or brick break), gunk shot, ice punch, rock slide and even u-turn if you want to.
I would say a set of sd, shadow sneak, liquidation and gunk shot/low kick (I would run gunk shot because that hits both grasses and fairies for super effective damage). I would not run night slash because shadow sneak hits all the super effective targets night slash does, but it also is priority. Tera ghost shadow sneak is really good.
A sample set I created:
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Battle Bond
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Liquidation
- Shadow Sneak
- Gunk Shot
252 Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 149-177 (46.1 - 54.7%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Greninja Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 218-260 (59.8 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Greninja Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Skeledirge: 211-250 (51.3 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Greninja Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Sinistcha: 205-244 (59.2 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Decently powerful, but special greninja works better most of the time.
this actually made me realize how much phys coverage greninja has lol, even has acrobatics for niche terrain seed stuff
I got a sufficient amount of games in post-Garchomp to post some thoughts:
Kommo-o @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Ability: Soundproof / Bulletproof
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Dragon Tail
- Poison Jab / Filler
- Stealth Rock
Kommo-o fills the role of Garchomp to an extent and with it gone the room for exploration is significantly higher now. Everyone knows about Clangorous Soul and mixed rocks. DD Kommo-o picked up a little and became better with no SD Chomp competing with it. I'm going to highlight defensive Kommo-o as it is a set I've enjoyed using a lot. Rockpon answers are super limited and this is one of the few mons capable of checking it well. It also does well into Lokix, Harcanine, Excadrill, and Ttar. I liked Poison Jab the most for Azumarill + potential fish vs Torn, King, and Zap. It does have other options like EQ, fire coverage, Taunt, and Rest. You could run an ID or maybe Bulk Up set if you pair it with another rocker.
- No chomp means it gets to click a bit more. The main thing is the last slot being freed up and with hazard chomp gone people are exploring non-boots sets more.
- Obnoxious ass mon gets better with no Rough Skin Chomp to force progress against Boots Lokix. There are fewer options to punish it so Lokix can do its thing more easily.
- Gets better with no Garchomp and most teams use Excadrill as their Ground, which it can beat depending on your speed or bulk benchmarks. It's super easy to force progress with this Pokemon and can be difficult to restrict.
- It does not need Dazzling Gleam anymore so it just gets to free up the slot for whatever you want. It does have checks but most of them just lose to Tera Blast. Tyranitar, Harcanine, Toxapex, and Skeldirge can all lose especially if it gets the initial Fiery Dance boost. It's super RNG and I would watch it closely especially if shifts add nothing new to handle it.
- No Chomp = Ivy is so much easier to spam and you can't guarantee the Sturdy break with Rough Skin if you cannot get hazards up. It technically has the coverage moves to break through all of its answers. I saw Tantrum a fair amount which beats Tink, Hoodra, Crown, Metagross, etc. Another Pokemon to watch closely as the tier may just be better off without it now.
- CM Booster is the biggest threat by far and no Chomp makes it far more obnoxious to check. The reliance on Focus Blast at times can be a hindrance but between it having few defensive answers and flexibility in set and tera types it is another Pokemon to watch closely post shifts.
- I'll be interested to see where these guys land later on with Garchomp gone as the premier defensive Ground. I have not used or seen them extensively enough to comment much on them besides Sandy. I tried a Tera Water Spikes set and it still felt mid to me. No Chomp is great for it but it doesn't deal with Zapdos or Torn as well as you would think. Either way it might take a little while for them to be explored more.
Here is a team I shall share post-Garchomp, which I broke through 1700s with. I just wanted a brainless HO to ladder with so I just threw a bunch of HO staples onto a team and called it good. Lead Deos is the face of HO, you just set hazards. Booster Crown got better and offers a lot defensively. Moth is another staple and can auto-win games if you get lucky. I liked Tera Blast Water + Discharge the most when testing. DD Kommo-o is fairly standard except I just decided to run Dclaw for Apple and Latios. Azumarill is another standard HO mon with a lot of defensive value. Finally, Mamoswine is just a strong breaker, gives a Ground-type, and provides priority. You could slot it out for a Booster Sandy Shocks, but I never tried it so your call.
I look forward to tier shifts and if we go back to the 3-month schedule the tier will be allowed to settle for a longer period. If anyone has any other cool sets or Pokemon they have had success with post-Garchomp I'd love it if you shared them so I have something fun to build with later
Kommo-o @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Ability: Soundproof / Bulletproof
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Dragon Tail
- Poison Jab / Filler
- Stealth Rock
Kommo-o fills the role of Garchomp to an extent and with it gone the room for exploration is significantly higher now. Everyone knows about Clangorous Soul and mixed rocks. DD Kommo-o picked up a little and became better with no SD Chomp competing with it. I'm going to highlight defensive Kommo-o as it is a set I've enjoyed using a lot. Rockpon answers are super limited and this is one of the few mons capable of checking it well. It also does well into Lokix, Harcanine, Excadrill, and Ttar. I liked Poison Jab the most for Azumarill + potential fish vs Torn, King, and Zap. It does have other options like EQ, fire coverage, Taunt, and Rest. You could run an ID or maybe Bulk Up set if you pair it with another rocker.
Here is a team I shall share post-Garchomp, which I broke through 1700s with. I just wanted a brainless HO to ladder with so I just threw a bunch of HO staples onto a team and called it good. Lead Deos is the face of HO, you just set hazards. Booster Crown got better and offers a lot defensively. Moth is another staple and can auto-win games if you get lucky. I liked Tera Blast Water + Discharge the most when testing. DD Kommo-o is fairly standard except I just decided to run Dclaw for Apple and Latios. Azumarill is another standard HO mon with a lot of defensive value. Finally, Mamoswine is just a strong breaker, gives a Ground-type, and provides priority. You could slot it out for a Booster Sandy Shocks, but I never tried it so your call.
I look forward to tier shifts and if we go back to the 3-month schedule the tier will be allowed to settle for a longer period. If anyone has any other cool sets or Pokemon they have had success with post-Garchomp I'd love it if you shared them so I have something fun to build with later
glad to see people talking about kommo-o, how are its DD drain punch sets anyway? i prefer clangorous soul by just a little bit but the DD set up on mons that you wall like arcanine-hisui and ogerpon-corner seem nice
Cheryl.
Celesteela is Life
Kommo-o's main selling point to me, at least before the Chomp ban, was its defensive utility that helped it check and set up on a lot of relevant threats like the aforementioned Hisuicanine and Cornerstone. DD allows it to perform that role much more consistently than the Clangorous Soul sets to me as the Soul set acts much more as a one-time sweeper, while DD sets aim to sweep but can generally swap out multiple times during a match while applying good pressure between boosted Drain Punches and techs such as Taunt for Mandibuzz, Rotom-W, etc. I really like the Taunt DD set, especially if you go Tera Electric to set up on Zapdos and to boost your Thunder Punches.
Tbf, i feelThis is my weirdest prediction, but now with tankchomp gone, Gastrodon could rise as a defensive ground with spikes to fill that void. decent chance this won't happen but still could worth looking at
can do this really well too, especially due to access to toxic and tspikes along with the ability to bluff unaware[gastrodon can bluff sticky hold too but it's sticky hold]
i've been able to use physdef
decently on a sand team as a spiker and as a check to keldeo, rotom and azumarill pairing well with spdef mandibuzz, not the best of success but pretty decentphysdef gastro does have nearly the same bulk but toxic[alongside EQ] does allow
to compete imo
Hey it's been a while since I made a general meta discussion post, so I felt like discussing the effects of the Garchomp ban on the meta, most importantly notably improved mons and their new role in the meta. Here we go.
Starting off with Kommo-o which you might confuse for a replacement to Garchomp in the meta. Sure it has good defensive traits, access to Rocks and sweeping potential just like Chomp did, but Kommo-o's partial Fighting-typing is actually the most important part of its kit and differentiating it from Garchomp in this way. The most important benefits to being a Fighting-Type for Kommo-o in my opinion are its Rock resistance and access to STAB Drain Punch. Now, the Rock resist is something Chomp had as well, but it mostly used it to deal with Arcanine-H and pivot into the occasional Terrakion Stone Edge. Kommo-o is a much more complete answer to offensive Rock-types, stonewalling Ogerpon-C lacking Play Rough alongside being a much more reliable switch-in to Tyranitar while still properly switching into Arcanine-H, Terrakion and Rhyperior. Its access to Drain Punch is also important in its defensive role, letting it stay healthier than Garchomp, even into threats it might not hard-counter such as Excadrill or Greninja, healing off heavy damage, allowing it to still be useful later on. However, while Kommo-o's defensive utility is undeniably great, what stands out most about it is that it can do all that while still remaining a proper wincon. It might not be as useful of a wincon if you want it to be your Rocker and its defensive utility might be diminished if you plan to use a set without Leftovers, but overall, being able to check many dangerous threats while still being able to act as a rather bulky sweeper with access to Dragon Dance, Clangorous Soul or Bulk Up is incredible for team compression. It does run into some big issues, notably with 3 of the best mons in the tier in Latios, Tornadus-T and Zapdos, so it'll usually use a coverage slot and its Tera type to ease up its matchups against those if needed. Thunder Punch and Ice Punch are two notable coverage options, Thunder Punch being better for Toxapex and pairing well with Tera Electric while Ice Punch allows Kommo-o to have a more favorable matchup into Latios. Overall, I believe Kommo-o to be one of the best and most splashable overall mons after the Garchomp ban.
Being rid of one of its best checks that was also common as hell was a great boon for Arcanine-H and means it's no longer as reliant on Will-O-Wisp. It also fills the gap Garchomp left as a way to check Iron Moth. However, with the meta adapting to Chomp leaving, it has also come with new checks to Arcanine, meaning it doesn't break all that easily still. Kommo-o is the main one, but there are also notably new Ground-types looking to fill Garchomp's defensive niche, notably Rhyperior, Gastrodon and Hippowdon. Furthermore, teams are more careful not to let it in for free, investing into options like Focus Blast Tornadus-T to keep it at bay. Regardless, Arcanine-H is still a great contributor to teams. Its ability to force switches makes it great at setting Rocks, especially since it's not bad into Excadrill and Mandibuzz and it can still burn the majority of its counters. As has been said, having a sturdy answer to Iron Moth is also incredibly valuable and, to top it off, access to Extreme Speed, potentially boosted by Tera, is extremely useful insurance. Arcanine-H has extremely high-potential as poorly prepared teams may simply fold to it, but most of the time, it'll be fighting an uphill battle to break through some of its answers, but its access to alternate forms of support means it tends to perform well regardless.
We can't talk about a splashable Volt-blocker being banned without talking about the tier's Electric-Types. For the most part, it's still just Zapdos leading the pack with its extremely good defensive typing, access to Roost and its ability to hit almost everything for major damage. Garchomp wasn't a great answer to Zapdos to begin with unless it was running a specific set with Stone Edge, high Attack and high SpDef, but it could still act as an annoying check to it and a deterrent to Volt Switch. Now, there are still many Ground-types running around to block its Volt Switches, most importantly Excadrill, but the majority are much less capable of handling Hurricane (or in Excadrill's case, Heat Wave). This means Zapdos retains its spot as one of the most threatening wallbreakers in the tier. However, that's not to say the tier isn't adapting. As stated earlier for Arcanine, Rhyperior has been seeing more usage and it's by far the best Zapdos answer we have. Bulkier Ground-types like Gastrodon may also become more of a hindrance for it. However, I believe a lot of adaptation will come through in the form of other Electric-types that keep Zapdos in check. Currently, Sandy Shocks and Rotom-Wash fail to answer it properly, in part due to their lacking damage output against it. However, I believe Raikou and Thundurus-T may start seeing more usage to check Zapdos and use it to find setup opportunities. Raikou itself enjoys Garchomp's absence quite a bit, as it doesn't have to rely on Tera Blast or Weather Ball as much and can more often justify using Leftovers over Boots. The former allows it to generally more easily threaten offensive teams with just Thunderbolt+Scald and Leftovers allow it to take more hits midgame and allow it to setup more easily against special attackers. It still has to rely on Tera Blast or Weather Ball for the occasional Latios, Hydrapple and Kommo-o, but it still generally finds itself in a nice spot in the meta. Raikou's Speed tier and capabilities as a wincon were always great, even if hard to slot, but the greater need for a Zapdos check alongside a generally easier time going into endgame with it means it should become more potent. Thundurus-T is in a similar boat to Raikou; Chomp leaving means it can more easily take care of the majority of the metagame with just Thunderbolt and Focus Blast and Volt Absorb alongside a Flying resistance makes it a nice Zapdos check. However, its lower Speed, Special Bulk and longevity means it'll most likely end up being more specific than other Electric-types, though it remains an incredible wallbreaker for certain team compositions and is a great asset to Webs team with its nice matchup into Tornadus-T. I'm excited to see where previously rarer Electric-types will go in this new metagame. I always considered them to have great potential, but to be rather difficult to use, but the changes in the metagame, I can see them becoming more splashable and more consistent.
Another interesting topic is that of Ground-types. Ground-types have often been considered borderline mandatory for a team and with Garchomp gone, a huge hole is left open for many to attempt to replace it. I'll mostly be talking about Rhyperior here since I have not gotten the opportunity to use others like Gastrodon and Hippowdon and I plan on discussing Excadrill in a later section. Now, there are three major aspects of Garchomp that you'd like your Ground-types to replicate defensively: a Rock resistance, an Electric immunity and the ability to consistently keep hazards up. Now, this seems pretty simple, after all these are all things that we can expect Ground-types to be able to do reasonably well, but it gets a bit more complicated when you go into the specific mons you expect those Ground-types to face.
- The Rock resistance will require your Ground-type to face pokemon such as Ogerpon-C, Arcanine-H, Terrakion and Tyranitar. None of the other Ground-types are able to remotely check Ogerpon, so you might as well go just use something else to deal with that, but for those other three offensive Rock-types, they either require a certain amount of bulk or specific resistances to be able to take those on. Excadrill is especially poor against those with its low bulk, often being in 1HKO range from various moves from these threats. Hippowdon is bulky enough to take every physical Rock-type, while Gastrodon relies on its resistances to take on Arcanine and will struggle against non-resisted STABs. Rhyperior is bad into Terrakion and generally not great into Tyranitar, but can get the job done.
- More importantly though, those Ground-types have to deal with the metagame's Electric-types. Zapdos is incredibly rough for most of them, forcing Gastrodon and Hippowdon to heal off its Hurricanes constantly, risking confusion in the process while getting through Excadrill with Heat Wave. Part of the issue with those is also that they struggle to deal major damage to Zapdos, at least not before it breaks through them. This is where Rhyperior is most important, shrugging off Zapdos's Hurricanes and dealing massive damage with Stone Edge. Gastrodon is most useful against Rotom-Wash and Raikou which carry Water-coverage while Hippowdon, Rhyperior and Excadrill will struggle.
-As for keeping hazards up, Hippowdon and Rhyperior tend to do rather well, having the sheer bulk and power to get through Excadrill with relative ease. Hippowdon may struggle a bit more against Mandibuzz due to its access to Toxic, but Rhyperior will rip straight through it as well. Gastrodon is not bad at setting Spikes and Stealth Rock, but its lower damage output makes it more vulnerable against Excadrill and it still fears a Toxic from Mandibuzz. Excadrill itself is a rather poor Stealth Rock setter as it rarely gets the turns it needs to set them up and its moveslots are better kept for coverage moves or Swords Dance.
Overall, I would say Rhyperior gives you the best matchups overall as it covers Zapdos especially well and is a great Stealth Rock setter. Its weaknesses against certain Electric and Rock-types are easier to deal with than failing to cover for those other main shortcomings. Excadrill itself is a phenomenal pokemon, but can't be relied on to do the work you'd expect a Ground-type to do and will require support. Gastrodon and Hippowdon seem to have interesting upsides, but will most likely be a bit more situational than the other two.
Alright, now tackling some mons that Garchomp helped keep in check. All of these have been subjects of discussion among council. First of all, let's look at Iron Moth. If you're accounting for it in the teambuilder, it's really not all that bad as it can struggle extremely badly against pokemon like Arcanine-H and Skeledirge. However, if you're building a team with a more general look at the metagame that can't afford to slot some of the hard-counters to it, Moth can become a nightmare. Options like Thunder Wave Slowking, Latios and Assault Vest Tornadus-T can all be nice in working towards answering Moth, but none of them are flawless. With these, your fate can come down to a coinflip. Fiery Dance is brutal, giving Iron Moth a deadly boost that can make it nearly unwallable half the time, but making it a non-threat the other half. With SpDef Chomp as a splashable check, it felt a bit less pressing, but with it gone, Iron Moth may establish itself as an unhealthy presence that makes games come down to luck rather than skill. Iron Crown is a bit more reasonable from a luck side of things, but is still an extremely cheesy mon overall. Of course, Booster Energy Speed with Calm Mind makes it a good offensive threat, rounded out by high Special Attack and good coverage, but the most important part of Iron Crown is just how damn bulky it is. Even if you can take a hit from it, it can be pretty difficult to actually do much in return. It can just keep boosting through its walls or breaking through them by spamming Tachyon Cutter, potentially paired with Psychic Noise to prevent recovery. Iron Crown wasn't as much of an issue before as SpDef Chomp could take it on with its bulk and access to a super-effective move. Its access to Spikes also helped wear it down before it even it the field. Now though, the only options to break through it are often open to a 1HKO that makes it difficult to take on without some sort of support. Excadrill and Arcanine-H are the only pokemon you can expect to have the damage output to break through Iron Crown easily, and they will often require support of teammates such as Icy Wind Torn-T and Thunder Wave Slowking to not be 1HKO'd by Focus Blast. Beating Iron Crown can often require sacrificing significant chunks of health or entire mons to setup a kill for another. Finally, Excadrill. To make a long story short, we lack ways to deal with Mold Breaker Earthquake. Paired with Rock Slide, Excadrill can make its way through Zapdos and while taking a hit from it isn't necessarily hard, taking a hit while hitting back hard enough to kill it is rather challenging. Once again, this is where Garchomp would come in with its good bulk and STAB Earthquake. Excadrill feels a lot harder to let go than the previous two however as its spinning capabilities alongside checking threats like CM Tera Electric Latios are extremely healthy aspects to add to the metagame. Regardless, with poor switch-ins to it and its ability to increase its Speed with Rapid Spin, Excadrill becomes a major threat in the metagame.
I'm still pretty sad about Garchomp going all things considered, I felt like its defensive sets did a lot for the meta, but I'm still excited to see mons like Kommo-o and Rhyperior putting in more work. Feel free to bring up other mons you've felt get an interesting new niche in the meta with Chomp gone, I'm interested to hear about them.
Starting off with Kommo-o which you might confuse for a replacement to Garchomp in the meta. Sure it has good defensive traits, access to Rocks and sweeping potential just like Chomp did, but Kommo-o's partial Fighting-typing is actually the most important part of its kit and differentiating it from Garchomp in this way. The most important benefits to being a Fighting-Type for Kommo-o in my opinion are its Rock resistance and access to STAB Drain Punch. Now, the Rock resist is something Chomp had as well, but it mostly used it to deal with Arcanine-H and pivot into the occasional Terrakion Stone Edge. Kommo-o is a much more complete answer to offensive Rock-types, stonewalling Ogerpon-C lacking Play Rough alongside being a much more reliable switch-in to Tyranitar while still properly switching into Arcanine-H, Terrakion and Rhyperior. Its access to Drain Punch is also important in its defensive role, letting it stay healthier than Garchomp, even into threats it might not hard-counter such as Excadrill or Greninja, healing off heavy damage, allowing it to still be useful later on. However, while Kommo-o's defensive utility is undeniably great, what stands out most about it is that it can do all that while still remaining a proper wincon. It might not be as useful of a wincon if you want it to be your Rocker and its defensive utility might be diminished if you plan to use a set without Leftovers, but overall, being able to check many dangerous threats while still being able to act as a rather bulky sweeper with access to Dragon Dance, Clangorous Soul or Bulk Up is incredible for team compression. It does run into some big issues, notably with 3 of the best mons in the tier in Latios, Tornadus-T and Zapdos, so it'll usually use a coverage slot and its Tera type to ease up its matchups against those if needed. Thunder Punch and Ice Punch are two notable coverage options, Thunder Punch being better for Toxapex and pairing well with Tera Electric while Ice Punch allows Kommo-o to have a more favorable matchup into Latios. Overall, I believe Kommo-o to be one of the best and most splashable overall mons after the Garchomp ban.
Being rid of one of its best checks that was also common as hell was a great boon for Arcanine-H and means it's no longer as reliant on Will-O-Wisp. It also fills the gap Garchomp left as a way to check Iron Moth. However, with the meta adapting to Chomp leaving, it has also come with new checks to Arcanine, meaning it doesn't break all that easily still. Kommo-o is the main one, but there are also notably new Ground-types looking to fill Garchomp's defensive niche, notably Rhyperior, Gastrodon and Hippowdon. Furthermore, teams are more careful not to let it in for free, investing into options like Focus Blast Tornadus-T to keep it at bay. Regardless, Arcanine-H is still a great contributor to teams. Its ability to force switches makes it great at setting Rocks, especially since it's not bad into Excadrill and Mandibuzz and it can still burn the majority of its counters. As has been said, having a sturdy answer to Iron Moth is also incredibly valuable and, to top it off, access to Extreme Speed, potentially boosted by Tera, is extremely useful insurance. Arcanine-H has extremely high-potential as poorly prepared teams may simply fold to it, but most of the time, it'll be fighting an uphill battle to break through some of its answers, but its access to alternate forms of support means it tends to perform well regardless.
We can't talk about a splashable Volt-blocker being banned without talking about the tier's Electric-Types. For the most part, it's still just Zapdos leading the pack with its extremely good defensive typing, access to Roost and its ability to hit almost everything for major damage. Garchomp wasn't a great answer to Zapdos to begin with unless it was running a specific set with Stone Edge, high Attack and high SpDef, but it could still act as an annoying check to it and a deterrent to Volt Switch. Now, there are still many Ground-types running around to block its Volt Switches, most importantly Excadrill, but the majority are much less capable of handling Hurricane (or in Excadrill's case, Heat Wave). This means Zapdos retains its spot as one of the most threatening wallbreakers in the tier. However, that's not to say the tier isn't adapting. As stated earlier for Arcanine, Rhyperior has been seeing more usage and it's by far the best Zapdos answer we have. Bulkier Ground-types like Gastrodon may also become more of a hindrance for it. However, I believe a lot of adaptation will come through in the form of other Electric-types that keep Zapdos in check. Currently, Sandy Shocks and Rotom-Wash fail to answer it properly, in part due to their lacking damage output against it. However, I believe Raikou and Thundurus-T may start seeing more usage to check Zapdos and use it to find setup opportunities. Raikou itself enjoys Garchomp's absence quite a bit, as it doesn't have to rely on Tera Blast or Weather Ball as much and can more often justify using Leftovers over Boots. The former allows it to generally more easily threaten offensive teams with just Thunderbolt+Scald and Leftovers allow it to take more hits midgame and allow it to setup more easily against special attackers. It still has to rely on Tera Blast or Weather Ball for the occasional Latios, Hydrapple and Kommo-o, but it still generally finds itself in a nice spot in the meta. Raikou's Speed tier and capabilities as a wincon were always great, even if hard to slot, but the greater need for a Zapdos check alongside a generally easier time going into endgame with it means it should become more potent. Thundurus-T is in a similar boat to Raikou; Chomp leaving means it can more easily take care of the majority of the metagame with just Thunderbolt and Focus Blast and Volt Absorb alongside a Flying resistance makes it a nice Zapdos check. However, its lower Speed, Special Bulk and longevity means it'll most likely end up being more specific than other Electric-types, though it remains an incredible wallbreaker for certain team compositions and is a great asset to Webs team with its nice matchup into Tornadus-T. I'm excited to see where previously rarer Electric-types will go in this new metagame. I always considered them to have great potential, but to be rather difficult to use, but the changes in the metagame, I can see them becoming more splashable and more consistent.
Another interesting topic is that of Ground-types. Ground-types have often been considered borderline mandatory for a team and with Garchomp gone, a huge hole is left open for many to attempt to replace it. I'll mostly be talking about Rhyperior here since I have not gotten the opportunity to use others like Gastrodon and Hippowdon and I plan on discussing Excadrill in a later section. Now, there are three major aspects of Garchomp that you'd like your Ground-types to replicate defensively: a Rock resistance, an Electric immunity and the ability to consistently keep hazards up. Now, this seems pretty simple, after all these are all things that we can expect Ground-types to be able to do reasonably well, but it gets a bit more complicated when you go into the specific mons you expect those Ground-types to face.
- The Rock resistance will require your Ground-type to face pokemon such as Ogerpon-C, Arcanine-H, Terrakion and Tyranitar. None of the other Ground-types are able to remotely check Ogerpon, so you might as well go just use something else to deal with that, but for those other three offensive Rock-types, they either require a certain amount of bulk or specific resistances to be able to take those on. Excadrill is especially poor against those with its low bulk, often being in 1HKO range from various moves from these threats. Hippowdon is bulky enough to take every physical Rock-type, while Gastrodon relies on its resistances to take on Arcanine and will struggle against non-resisted STABs. Rhyperior is bad into Terrakion and generally not great into Tyranitar, but can get the job done.
- More importantly though, those Ground-types have to deal with the metagame's Electric-types. Zapdos is incredibly rough for most of them, forcing Gastrodon and Hippowdon to heal off its Hurricanes constantly, risking confusion in the process while getting through Excadrill with Heat Wave. Part of the issue with those is also that they struggle to deal major damage to Zapdos, at least not before it breaks through them. This is where Rhyperior is most important, shrugging off Zapdos's Hurricanes and dealing massive damage with Stone Edge. Gastrodon is most useful against Rotom-Wash and Raikou which carry Water-coverage while Hippowdon, Rhyperior and Excadrill will struggle.
-As for keeping hazards up, Hippowdon and Rhyperior tend to do rather well, having the sheer bulk and power to get through Excadrill with relative ease. Hippowdon may struggle a bit more against Mandibuzz due to its access to Toxic, but Rhyperior will rip straight through it as well. Gastrodon is not bad at setting Spikes and Stealth Rock, but its lower damage output makes it more vulnerable against Excadrill and it still fears a Toxic from Mandibuzz. Excadrill itself is a rather poor Stealth Rock setter as it rarely gets the turns it needs to set them up and its moveslots are better kept for coverage moves or Swords Dance.
Overall, I would say Rhyperior gives you the best matchups overall as it covers Zapdos especially well and is a great Stealth Rock setter. Its weaknesses against certain Electric and Rock-types are easier to deal with than failing to cover for those other main shortcomings. Excadrill itself is a phenomenal pokemon, but can't be relied on to do the work you'd expect a Ground-type to do and will require support. Gastrodon and Hippowdon seem to have interesting upsides, but will most likely be a bit more situational than the other two.
Alright, now tackling some mons that Garchomp helped keep in check. All of these have been subjects of discussion among council. First of all, let's look at Iron Moth. If you're accounting for it in the teambuilder, it's really not all that bad as it can struggle extremely badly against pokemon like Arcanine-H and Skeledirge. However, if you're building a team with a more general look at the metagame that can't afford to slot some of the hard-counters to it, Moth can become a nightmare. Options like Thunder Wave Slowking, Latios and Assault Vest Tornadus-T can all be nice in working towards answering Moth, but none of them are flawless. With these, your fate can come down to a coinflip. Fiery Dance is brutal, giving Iron Moth a deadly boost that can make it nearly unwallable half the time, but making it a non-threat the other half. With SpDef Chomp as a splashable check, it felt a bit less pressing, but with it gone, Iron Moth may establish itself as an unhealthy presence that makes games come down to luck rather than skill. Iron Crown is a bit more reasonable from a luck side of things, but is still an extremely cheesy mon overall. Of course, Booster Energy Speed with Calm Mind makes it a good offensive threat, rounded out by high Special Attack and good coverage, but the most important part of Iron Crown is just how damn bulky it is. Even if you can take a hit from it, it can be pretty difficult to actually do much in return. It can just keep boosting through its walls or breaking through them by spamming Tachyon Cutter, potentially paired with Psychic Noise to prevent recovery. Iron Crown wasn't as much of an issue before as SpDef Chomp could take it on with its bulk and access to a super-effective move. Its access to Spikes also helped wear it down before it even it the field. Now though, the only options to break through it are often open to a 1HKO that makes it difficult to take on without some sort of support. Excadrill and Arcanine-H are the only pokemon you can expect to have the damage output to break through Iron Crown easily, and they will often require support of teammates such as Icy Wind Torn-T and Thunder Wave Slowking to not be 1HKO'd by Focus Blast. Beating Iron Crown can often require sacrificing significant chunks of health or entire mons to setup a kill for another. Finally, Excadrill. To make a long story short, we lack ways to deal with Mold Breaker Earthquake. Paired with Rock Slide, Excadrill can make its way through Zapdos and while taking a hit from it isn't necessarily hard, taking a hit while hitting back hard enough to kill it is rather challenging. Once again, this is where Garchomp would come in with its good bulk and STAB Earthquake. Excadrill feels a lot harder to let go than the previous two however as its spinning capabilities alongside checking threats like CM Tera Electric Latios are extremely healthy aspects to add to the metagame. Regardless, with poor switch-ins to it and its ability to increase its Speed with Rapid Spin, Excadrill becomes a major threat in the metagame.
I'm still pretty sad about Garchomp going all things considered, I felt like its defensive sets did a lot for the meta, but I'm still excited to see mons like Kommo-o and Rhyperior putting in more work. Feel free to bring up other mons you've felt get an interesting new niche in the meta with Chomp gone, I'm interested to hear about them.
post chomp ban meta feels pretty good
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usage-based-tier-update-for-april-2024.3740273/
Garganacl moved from UUBL to OU
Deoxys-Speed moved from UU to OU
Iron Moth moved from UU to OU
Ribombee moved from UU to OU
Iron Boulder moved from OU to UU
Pelipper moved from OU to UU
Barraskewda moved from OU to RU
Garganacl moved from UUBL to OU
Deoxys-Speed moved from UU to OU
Iron Moth moved from UU to OU
Ribombee moved from UU to OU
Iron Boulder moved from OU to UU
Pelipper moved from OU to UU
Barraskewda moved from OU to RU
pretty cool shifts for us
LETS GO MOTH IS GONE, this guy was the worst and probably would've been suspected, but now we don't even have to!
Honestly, deo wasn't really the best here to begin with(still 5th in usage though damn), not much'll change. happy he's good in ou tho
don't know if galvantula and araquanid can replace it, but sticky web wasn't too prevalent to begin with, so I could care less
Interesting for sure. It looks pretty powerful, but that weakness to priority looks even worse then it did in ou.
all the rain mons fell(except treads:( ) so rain is back in full force. with azu,keldeo gren and even manaphy now, Rain looks very powerful now. is also eating good
LETS GO MOTH IS GONE, this guy was the worst and probably would've been suspected, but now we don't even have to! Honestly, deo wasn't really the best here to begin with(still 5th in usage though damn), not much'll change. happy he's good in ou tho don't know if galvantula and araquanid can replace it, but sticky web wasn't too prevalent to begin with, so I could care less Interesting for sure. It looks pretty powerful, but that weakness to priority looks even worse then it did in ou. all the rain mons fell(except treads:( ) so rain is back in full force. with azu,keldeo gren and even manaphy now, Rain looks very powerful now. is also eating good
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THE FRAUD!! i watched my friend use him he's washed
SHE'S FINALLY GONE
8% USAGE ITS NEVER KOMMO-OVER!!
who?
she's gonna make out with her BF in the rain
his GF is a higher tier than him
R.I.P...rest in RU young fellow
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iron boulder when he discovers lokix
am i the only one here that thinks that iron boulder is mid
rain is gonna make this tier unbelievably unfun for a while slowking stocks soaring rn
Kommo-o & Hydrapple Stocks Rising as rain returns
I love how everybody in this tier realises that iron boulder is going to be spammed for like 5 minutes and then is going to drop off because it is so bad.
Keep up the good work everybody. OU took a lot longer to realise that.
Keep up the good work everybody. OU took a lot longer to realise that.
We should ban Pelliper
i agree with this
You mean 3 months because we are back to the 3 months rise schedule