Swirlix and Gligar have been banned

[Goldland]

To steer away from this discussion, I will share a pretty cool replay showing just how powerful Gligar is. I made some super dumb plays in the beginning and I thought I was screwed once Tirtouga set up, but Gligar brought it back from 5-2 to 0-2, getting me third place in the small LC tour we did in the room.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-85913095

So you link a game in which a tirtouga smashes in the face of your foongus, proceeds to kill 2 of your members and weakening a third one, while you didn't have much but hope to survive his sweeping,as you stated, you and your opponent also played really bad, and then you try to prove a point on how poweful gligar is on sweeping a team that lost it's tirtougga, has no priority moves, no revenge killer nor a bulky sweeper or wall to tank a hit and ko back. Do i need to continue on how your point fails?
Any way for gligar to come in action and to be efficient, was highly required a team support, and a lack of potential answers from your opponent.

SubSD: Checked by Slowpoke
Knock Off > Sub: Not checked by Slowpoke

SubSD: Revenged by Chinchou
ScarfGar: Not revenged by Chinchou (if locked into EQ or not locked into anything)

Gligar w/o U-Turn/Baton Pass: Checked by Shellos, Wooper
With U-Turn/Baton Pass: Gligar can get out to another 'Mon and sweep

Need I continue?

slowpoke is not a good check for gligar. That you run it coz of regen and to check meditite, that's your problem.
chinchou does revenge kill gligar. No1 really scarfs gligar,and i wouldn't say scarf gligar has much sweeping potential greater than many others scarfers
gligar+u-turn? wow very power, wow such moveslot sweeping potential, wow.

"What can Gligar NOT do?".

I know several things he can't do. He doesn't have priority, or status cleaning, he can just toxic opponents, he can't special sweep, he can't have that much great of a coverage with just 2 attacking moves and the list goes on. If he's good at setting SR or defogging? for sure, like some others, but i think we might both agree that's a waste of gligar's potential.

I didn't talk THAT much about Gligar because the reason for ban stands on how it does every role possible and how it can sweep with its broken SD set.
Question #2 explained the rest of what I meant.

SD set requires 2 turns to set up, 1 for gligar to switch in and other to bulk up, you can surelly hurt him with damageor status. Has weakness to priority, scarfed, even roar prevents from setting up or switching in. for sure is strong, but isn't uncheckable, nor unmanagable any harder than, lets say, tirtouga or carvanha, that also can bulk up in the face of other pokemon and potentially sweep with the right prediction/team support. And gligar does also require support to sweep, unlike swirlix that can even set up in the 1st turn.

 

[chimp]

So you link a game in which a tirtouga smashes in the face of your foongus, proceeds to kill 2 of your members and weakening a third one, while you didn't have much but hope to survive his sweeping,as you stated, you and your opponent also played really bad, and then you try to prove a point on how poweful gligar is on sweeping a team that lost it's tirtougga, has no priority moves, no revenge killer nor a bulky sweeper or wall to tank a hit and ko back. Do i need to continue on how your point fails?
Any way for gligar to come in action and to be efficient, was highly required a team support, and a lack of potential answers from your opponent.


slowpoke is not a good check for gligar. That you run it coz of regen and to check meditite, that's your problem.
chinchou does revenge kill gligar. No1 really scarfs gligar,and i wouldn't say scarf gligar has much sweeping potential greater than many others scarfers
gligar+u-turn? wow very power, wow such moveslot sweeping potential, wow.



I know several things he can't do. He doesn't have priority, or status cleaning, he can just toxic opponents, he can't special sweep, he can't have that much great of a coverage with just 2 attacking moves and the list goes on. If he's good at setting SR or defogging? for sure, like some others, but i think we might both agree that's a waste of gligar's potential.


SD set requires 2 turns to set up, 1 for gligar to switch in and other to bulk up, you can surelly hurt him with damageor status. Has weakness to priority, scarfed, even roar prevents from setting up or switching in. for sure is strong, but isn't uncheckable, nor unmanagable any harder than, lets say, tirtouga or carvanha, that also can bulk up in the face of other pokemon and potentially sweep with the right prediction/team support. And gligar does also require support to sweep, unlike swirlix that can even set up in the 1st turn.

Whoa, lets try to keep the attacking to a minimum here.

U-turn is not a move made for sweeping. Its for momentum. Slowpoke IS a great check to gligar. Sure it may be 2KOd by Knock Off + Earthquake, but it can restore health by Slack Off (Knock Off is easy to predict) or by switching out. Slowpoke wins the fight if it gets its health back, which is easy for slowpoke.

Gligar doesn't /need/ priority (quick attack lol). It reaches 19 speed, so it can easily sweep without it. Toxic is not a bad status to throw around especially since gligar has 1) Massive Bulk 2)Reliable recovery 3)Immunity to that status, so it can effectively stall out a lot of pokemon. I'm not saying thats a particularly good set, but I'm saying its not wasted on gligar. You're taking Sevensins comment WAY too literally. The number of things Gligar can do outnumbers what it can't. Stealth Rock and Defog are not wasted potential since gligar can easily continue to set them up/blow them away throughout the match. 65/105/65 bulk is amazing.

Ground and Flying are an amazing STAB combo. Ground is resisted by Grass and Bug. Flying type just so happens to be super effective to those two types, while only resisted by types that Ground beats (Rock/Steel/Electric). The only real exception I can think of is Archen.

Gligar has an easy to switching in considering its great bulk. Most of its set up sets also run Substitute, considering it only needs two moves, Acrobatics and Earthquake, to sweep. I'll agree that it is /kinda/ easy to check and most checks are consistent in that they check most gligar sets, but most of its checks can't switch in (Chinchou/Amaura/Elekid can't risk an EQ, Snover with acrobatics, etc).

 

[User 468572]

1) Is Swirlix / Gligar broken?

I'm a little late to the thread, but I'll try to say whatever I have without repeating everything.

Swirlix

As many people have already pointed out, Swirlix is extremely threatening due to the number of sets which it can run.
Each set, on it's own, has a specific set of checks and counters.

Belly Drum Swirlix

As stated by one of my friends, BD Swirlix is the "noob killer". This variant of Swirlix is a little harder to set up, because before setting up, Swirlix can only hit 14 Speed, allowing any decently powerful mon to outspeed and send it into the yellow range and activate Berry Juice, after which it drums and goes down to 50%. At this point, Swirlix is on it's last life. Powerful priority will cut short a sweep, such as Meditite's Bullet Punch or Corphish's Aqua Jet. Sturdymons can slo beat this set if hazards are not up, and can actually easily set on it with Shell Smash. However, if Swirlix is set up and priority pokemon have been eliminated, there is nothing you can do.

Calm Mind Swirlix

This set is much easier to set up, but it provides less rewards. It's also the easiest to kill. After something has fainted, Swirlix can come in and proceed to set up. It usually gets to +2 very easily, and +3 is also possible if the opposing pokemon can't hit it hard enough. Once it has gotten this far, there is literally nothing that the opponent can do it their Meditite is down.

CG CM Swirlix

This set, in my opinion, is the best set that Swirlix can run. It easily boosts both defenses, and pokemon like Meditite can no longer revenge it. However, this set suffers from lack of coverage. CG CM takes up two slots, and a STAB takes up the third, leaving only one spot open to coverage. It can run Flamethrower to stop Ferroseed, but then Tentacruel checks it. However, if it runs Thunderbolt, Ferroseed stops it.

Thoughts

In each case, I have mentioned some checks and/or counters to Swirlix. However, Swirlix still terrorizes the metagame with huge variety. A team cannot carry Tentacool, Feroseed, Meditite and Tirtouga/Dwebble to completely stop Swirlix. Therefore, I am PRO - BAN on Swirlix.


Gligar

There really isn't much left to say about Gligar; everything has already been said. I'll just say a few things about what others have said.

Goddess Briyella - "The only set Gligar has that is broken to me is the Swords Dance + Berry Juice Acrobatics set."

I disagree with the above statement. This variant of Gligar is the most prepared to smash teams apart. Obviously, defensive variants don't seem as broken because they don't spend the battle wrecking the opponent sans opposing Gligar. Gligar does so much on a team, from hazard clearing to SD cleaning to utility. In this way, it is similar to Swirlix due to its immense variety. However, unlike Swirlix, even if you know Gligar's set, it doesn't make it easy for you to kill it. Generally, it loses only to ice moves and powerful water moves, such as +2 Tirtouga Waterfall (Which it can still survive in some cases). When one switches in a Chinchou/Staryu or other powerful water attacker, the opponent knows exactly what the opponent is going to go, and will proceed to send in something to take the hit. Gligar just can't be removed as easily, and sometimes it comes down to a speed tie between two Gligars. This removes a good amount of skill from the metagame.

TCR - Archen beats most gligar, has awesome Flying STAB still, and can pivot in and out of different things.

I don't understand this statement. I've played quite a bit of LC, and I've never had trouble with Archen. I can simply Knock off an eviolite, and Swords Dance on the Archen, Roosting when need be. Gligar usually carries a powerful enough move to stop Archen, so Archen doesn't sound like a Gligar check to me.


I am PRO - BAN on Gligar.


PS - Meditite will own the meta once these two leave. Now it doesn't need to carry Ice Punch for Gligar, and it can carry ThunderPunch for Slowpoke.

 

[dsr95]

SD set requires 2 turns to set up, 1 for gligar to switch in and other to bulk up, you can surelly hurt him with damageor status. Has weakness to priority, scarfed, even roar prevents from setting up or switching in. for sure is strong, but isn't uncheckable, nor unmanagable any harder than, lets say, tirtouga or carvanha, that also can bulk up in the face of other pokemon and potentially sweep with the right prediction/team support. And gligar does also require support to sweep, unlike swirlix that can even set up in the 1st turn.

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. Looking at Gligar's stats is already an indicator of its great bulk, so hurting it too much isn't always working. It also carries Berry Juice to ensure a 110BP STAB move and to make sure whatever damage you do to it heals back up. Also, if you're playing SD Gligar, you can find multiple opportunities to set up during the battle because of Gligar's immunity, resistance to Fighting Types, and other resistances. Unless you use Knock Off on Gligar, it's going to heal back its health and proceed to sweep everything like it meant to when the player sent it out (You won't always have a Knock Off user out, before you pull out that "but there's so many knock off users in the meta".). Also, do you honestly want a Pokemon around that is going to be on 40% on the battles?
SD Gligar requires no support to be put into a team. Sure, it can't sweep turn 1 because it only doubles its Attack which obviously isn't enough, while Swirlix goes +6. But still, save it for late battle and Gligar's sure to destroy whatever is left thanks to its amazing speed, power and bulk. Also, remember Gligar easily has about 5-6 sets, so you don't know what it's going to do or what moves it carries.

I know several things he can't do. He doesn't have priority, or status cleaning, he can just toxic opponents, he can't special sweep, he can't have that much great of a coverage with just 2 attacking moves and the list goes on. If he's good at setting SR or defogging? for sure, like some others, but i think we might both agree that's a waste of gligar's potential.

He has Quick Attack, it doesn't need to do special sweeping when it has physical sweeping, seriously. It has recovery and Flying/Ground STAB hits basically everything not called Archen. What was that?

 

[Holiday]

Whoa, lets try to keep the attacking to a minimum here.

U-turn is not a move made for sweeping. Its for momentum. Slowpoke IS a great check to gligar. Sure it may be 2KOd by Knock Off + Earthquake, but it can restore health by Slack Off (Knock Off is easy to predict) or by switching out. Slowpoke wins the fight if it gets its health back, which is easy for slowpoke.

Gligar doesn't /need/ priority. It reaches 19 speed, so it can easily sweep without it. Toxic is not a bad status to throw around especially since gligar has 1) Massive Bulk 2)Reliable recovery 3)Immunity to that status, so it can effectively stall out a lot of pokemon. I'm not saying thats a particularly good set, but I'm saying its not wasted on gligar. You're taking Sevensins comment WAY too literally. The number of things Gligar can do outnumbers what it can't. Stealth Rock and Defog are not wasted potential since gligar can easily continue to set them up/blow them away throughout the match. 65/105/65 bulk is amazing.

Ground and Flying are an amazing STAB combo. Ground is resisted by Grass and Bug. Flying type just so happens to be super effective to those two types, while only resisted by types that Ground beats (Rock/Steel/Electric). The only real exception I can think of is Archen. G

Gligar has an easy to switching in considering its great bulk. Most of its set up sets also run Substitute, considering it only needs two moves, Acrobatics and Earthquake, to sweep. I'll agree that it is /kinda/ easy to check and most checks are consistent in that they check most gligar sets, but most of its checks can't switch in (Chinchou/Amaura/Elekid can't risk an EQ).

Blizzard pretty much said what I wanted to. Thanks.

 

[Wobbyble]

Goldland, Flying-Ground coverage with two attacks is pretty good considering how it hits every single thing in the metagame for neutral effectiveness barring Bronzor and Archen.
Slowpoke is also a fucking great check to Gligar. It can switch in to it while it Swords Dances, and then lives any move that Gligar can throw at it (even with SR up), and OHKO back with Ice Beam or Scald if it's at 80%. The amount of other mons that can do this in the metagame areeeee let me think... Like two or three?

I don't have a problem with people wanting to keep Gligar in the metagame, but I think you should keep your statements objective. There's no possible way you can say stabbed Flying-Ground coverage is bad or Slowpoke is a bad check without being heavily influenced by subjective ideals. You might as well say Genesect has shit coverage. And bringing up Gligar's 35 Special attack is pretty pointless, you don't take into account Scyther or Sneasel's Specs sets when discussing suspect testing, and you don't take Gligar's either in here.

edit: And it doesn't take 2 turns for something to set up. There's something called VoltTurning into it, or sending it out after something else dies.

 

[macle]

What I don't like about Swirlix is the unpredictability of the sets, not as in if it's either CM or BD, but within the moveset. BD gets walled by steels, but if that set has Flamethrower, then Swirlix can just wear you down completely. Same goes for thief / CG / Aroma / Sub etc etc because they can all overcome these so called "checks/counters". Yes I understand you can't run all those moves in one set, but you also can't run all those pokemon that stop Swirlix all at once. I really don't think we should resort to "Most Swirlix don't have this so I'm ok", since this still doesn't take away the fact that it can run it, is viable, and helps it overcome certain pokemon like an example: Honedge. This is just the unpredictability of the moveset, you still have to figure out if its BD or CM. CM Swirlix, unlike the BD, has a shitload of options in arsenal. It has psychic / surf / flamethrower / thunderbolt / Dazzling Gleam / CG / Draining Kiss. It's amazing how many checks Swirlix can overcome with just the right 4th move, and it's too much effort trying to check/counter. It's even hard revenging since it resist some strong/common Priorities (Sucker Punch and Mach), the only thing that can efficiently revenge it with priority is Meditite with LO Fake out + BP. Other than that nothing really can revenge it due to unburden.

You have to consider too much when you aren't building a team and it forces you to overprepare for Swirlix, and you still have to prepare for the other threats in the metagame. Ban Swirlix.

this sums up my view of swirlix pretty much perfectly. The diversity it has always makes your team weak to a set of its. You can possibly have checks and counters to every set but then your team probably has no synergy and will easily be swept by any other pokemon. Swirlix is just unhealthy for the meta. Simple as that.

 

[-Sparkbeat-]

Lol I'm late to the party :$

Swirlix: Broken

Unpredictability: This is pretty much the main argument for anyone wanting to ban Swirlix, and that's because thanks to Swirlix's role as a late-game sweeper, being unpredictable is a great asset to have. Until Swirlix enters the game, the one facing it has no idea, firstly whether it is physical or special. This leads to the one against Swirlix having to play a guessing game on which of his Swirlix counters to try to keep healthy, and guessing wrong means you lose. Secondly, you have to hope Swirlix isn't carrying the fourth move that allows it to beat your counter/check, or that if you see Calm Mind and plan on checking with something like Meditite, it doesn't carry Cotton Guard as well. Think of Mega Lucario in OU, where there's a sweeping set on both sides of the spectrum that can sweep you with ease if you screwup one time.

Ability to Defeat Counters and Checks: Swirlix's ridiculously wide movepool allows it to beat normal Checks and Counters with slight changes, mainly in the fourth move selection. Common counters to the Calm Mind sets are Croagunk, Slowpoke with Thunder Wave, and whatever poison type you like most. All of these can be beaten with a move Swirlix gets, usually either Psychic or Thunderbolt. For both the Belly Drum set and the CM set, Protect can be used to keep Fake Out users from revenge killing you, and when priority is nearly always the only way to stop him, good luck. Belly Drum also commonly runs Theif to beat things like Slowpoke and Tirtouga that try to counter or check Swirlix. Cotton Guard + CM stop Swirlix's main check, Meditite, from being able to beat it after one Cotton Guard, and it also stop Pawniard. This just adds even more layers to the guesswork involved in keeping Swirlix from sweeping you late game, and it also allows Swirlix to come in mid-game, lure in a counter like Croagunk, then take it out with Psychic to Tirtouga can sweep you late game.

Ease of Set-up: Unlike every other set-up sweeper in LC, bar the imo broken Sturdy Juice Smashers, Swirlix typically finishes you off with full health, thanks to Berry Juice healing any chip damage you did to it when it set-up/healing the Belly Drum, as well as it being at +2 speed, meaning you can only hit it with priority. It also has just enough bulk to be successful in doing this, taking any non SE non LO boosted move with ease. This means there are only a select few Pokemon that can revenge kill it, and like I said before, it can get past these with either Cotton Guard or Protect.

Does Swirlix Make LC Not Fun? Yes, nothing is more annoying than playing a near flawless game, only to guess wrong with what set the Swirlix is running, then proceed to be swept by it. Or playing the whole game to leave it your Meditite against the opponents Swirlix, then have it set-up a Cotton Guard. In addition, you can just have revenged, say a Gligar with Scarf Chou's Ice Beam, then have Swirlix come in, Belly Drum, and sweep you since you can't do anything to touch it.

Does Swirlix Deter People From Playing LC? Yes, because like I said, feeling like you literally can't do anything to beat something makes playing a tier seem stupid, since it makes it feel like skill doesn't play a factor, only who can set-up their Swirlix first, and hopefully the opponent doesn't run the set that can beat me.

Gligar: Broken

Versatility: Whereas Swirlix is just unpredictable, it's pretty much going to be sweeping no matter how you look at it, since Spritzee is a much better Fairy types wall. Gligar, on the other hand, can just do everything. While personally I don't think this makes it broken, it's more the effectiveness of some sets that push it over the edge for me. Gligar can set-up rocks for you to stop Sturdy + BJ abusers. It can Defog for your own abusers of the prior strategy. It can just be a bulky pivot with amazing speed and offensive pressure. It can sweep with SD. It can pass attack boosts, speed boosts, or subs to other sweepers on your team. It can just come in and spam Knock Off for your other sweepers. It can be a wall with Roost and an Eviolite. Literally the only things Gligar can't do is be a special attacker, cleric, or TR sweeper.

Ability to Defeat Counter and Checks: Like Swirlix, Gligar can just screw over your counters to it. It also has a crazy amount of ways to do it. For starters, it can just U-Turn out into a counter. It can also use Knock Off to cripple them for later. It they can't take boosted moves, then SD does the job. The part that really pushes Gligar over the edge though, is the fact that it can SD/Sub/RP on the switch into a counter, then Baton Pass to a Pokemon that can handle said counter, and possibly lead to that Pokemon sweeping.

Stats: Gligar's stats are a giant reason of why it's so threatening. It's bulk lets it take pretty much any neutral physical attack, and it takes special attacks alright too, such as Slowpoke's Scald. It's attack gives it great power even without a boost. The stat that matters the most however, it it's speed stat, letting it speed tie with things like Murkrow and Misdreavus, and meaning many times you'll find yourself relying on a speed tie to beat Gligar, unless you run a Scarf, Elekid, or priority user. Unlike threats such as LO Murkrow, Gligar has decent enough recovery, as well as no recoil damage, meaning you can't just sack things until it can be taken out by priority.

Does Gligar Make LC Not Fun? In my opinion, it didn't. Unless it runs Baton Pass. At that point it's like Swirlix in a way that you feel powerless against it. Thanks to its offensive power, you won't want to leave in whatever you have against it, but if you switch, it could boost then pass, and you can't stop it.

Does Gligar Deter People From Playing LC? Yes, when people see a formerly UU Pokemon in LC, they probably think the tier's going to be horrible, and just a Gligar fest (Which it kinda is actually, but honestly using the reason "Why not use Gligar" as means to ban it is terrible since that can go for lots of Pokemon like Pawniard and Rotom-W in OU.)

 

[Anthiese]

slowpoke is not a good check for gligar.

...

236 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 7-10 (25 - 35.7%) -- 15.4% chance to 3HKO
236 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 6-7 (21.4 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
236 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 9-12 (32.1 - 42.8%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO
236 Atk Gligar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 10-14 (35.7 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

vs

36 SpA Slowpoke Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gligar: 14-20 (60.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

okay bad check :p

lets not mention the fact that scald has burn chance and if you're smart you don't want that.

but i guess it's still a bad check

 

[Expulso]

...

236 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 7-10 (25 - 35.7%) -- 15.4% chance to 3HKO
236 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 6-7 (21.4 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
236 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 9-12 (32.1 - 42.8%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO
236 Atk Gligar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 10-14 (35.7 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

vs

36 SpA Slowpoke Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gligar: 14-20 (60.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

okay bad check :p

lets not mention the fact that scald has burn chance and if you're smart you don't want that.

but i guess it's still a bad check

Ice Beam Slowpoke is the real check, it legitimately cannot be 2HKO'd by anything Gligar has and can Slack Off or OHKO back with Ice Beam. Only problem is, it can't hit most Fightings SE with Psychic, and must rely on Scald's burn chance (which is same as the chance of a focus miss, so yeah, that's not much of a problem.

Basically, the only thing Ice Beam Slowpoke loses is the ability to hit Waters; in return, it can beat Gligar, and hit Grass-types harder, although Foongus is weak to both Ice Beam and Psychic, and Ferroseed fears neither.

 

[Raichy]

I'm gonna post. I hope that people can understand what I say because english, etc.

Swirlix

It is pretty hard to face this pokemon because it can work perfect sweeping in both sides, so that makes you build around to don't be destryed easily with one of his sets. That makes LC pretty bored, because you are obligated to use specific pokemon for this one and they can still lose against him if you can predict or see what set is carrying. Meditite can be a good check for the belly drum one, but it loses against the CM set and you can need to sac a pokemon if it is the belly drum set with protect. This pokemon just make you think in what is the point of playing If even trying to predict or play well you can get fucked just in one turn or in a few because it is easy to set up against most pokemon just because they can't KO back him and he get all the heal or at least staying at 50%. People can think that status is a good way to check it but this pokemon can use Aromatherapy aswell, and sometimes that makes an unrelieable way to check. You know that something is going bad when you have to build around that pokemon using at least 2 slots just to check it and sometimes not being enough.

Gligar

This pokemon has an amazing bulk even If you don't invest on it being able to set up in almost everything without fear at all. Using a specific pokemon just to only wall this pokemon is pretty lame, specially when you have to use specific moves in some pokemon to check him and losing the real coverage that it needs. It can do multiple roles, passing a Swords Dance boost to other pokemon that can beat his checks just to break opponents team easier in another moment of the match. It has an amazing speed that gives it a lot of oportunity to pull of a sweep and auto-wining most matches If it can win some speed ties (that is what makes the things even worst, falling everything in a 50/50 thing and makes this not fun for sure). It can clean hazard very easy and put his own without being scared at all with a cool recovery move that makes it practically unbrekeable most of the time. It is easy for this one to Knock Off most items and 2HKO or 1HKO back after that. You have to build around this one in the same way as with Swirlix making the things pretty bored.

 

[DTC]

I know some people are still weary about voting to ban Gligar because they consider it a balancing force in the metagame. I understand where these arguments are coming from, but it's not like Gligar is totally irreplaceable. Of course no other Pokemon will be able to do all of what Gligar can do in one teamslot... but that's a good thing. The metagame will become a lot more varied if Gligar is banned because there won't be that one big glue Pokemon that can accomplish almost anything you would ever want it too.

Anyways, Gligar is a bit weird of a suspect indeed. Most Pokemon banned on Smogon are because of their offensive prowess, but note that is not the only thing that constitutes a ban. Gligar's SD set is very powerful, but I'm not sure if I'd put it at the same level as other sweepers that have been banned. However, I would argue that the combination of Gligar's offensive + defensive + supportive attributes push it well over the top, and it just makes a Pokemon that is well above every other Pokemon's power level. That's honestly what I think about Gligar; aside from the big Ice-type weaness, it's pretty much on a totally different power level from everything else, and I feel like that's the reason why some people are discouraged from playing LC. They see this one Pokemon that's everywhere in the metagame and fits on almost every single team, and they see that one of the only things stopping it is a bunch of random Ice-type moves on every Pokemon, so it looks really strong in comparison to everything else. Gligar has a bunch of checks, but it can usually accomplish SOMETHING even if you check it really well, whether it be check a few big threats or support the team by knocking off / gaining momentum with u-turn / setting up hazards.

 

[blarajan]

Ok. Discussion has completely waned (fuck you DTC). I have chosen the new permanent council member and the four temp council members.

Here is the voting panel for this suspect. 7 votes to ban will kill it. Send your votes to me and macle. Ties and below keep the suspect in LC. I just decided now to make it 12 members instead of 11.It requires a higher percentage to ban and this entire tier is my whim anyways.

Permanent Council:

Treecko
prem
Goddess Briyella
macle
apt-get
Heysup
Corkscrew

Temporary Council:
blizzardy
atomicllamas
Ashley11
Wobbyble
DTC

Congrats. All members of the temporary council received full votes for this suspect round. All votes should include your reasoning, though full paragraphs are not necessary. Please submit your votes ASAP, but before Saturday. Thanks!

 

[blarajan]

will edit with council votes later, the two big shits have been banned

if you hadn't voted yet, please submit your votes. we've already hit seven ban votes for each suspect so i figured i would say it.

edit: votes LOL

prem

im not late i was just playing ygo all day.


swirlix-ban

i feel that swirlix is broken in the metagame because it has 3 sets all with distinct counters. they can all be shoved on a team without any effort, and its ability to punish you for failing to ohko it is insane. it also can technically get around all of its usual answers via sub, protect, aromatherepy and so forth, making it impossible to stop.


gligar- ban

i would kind of want to vote abstain on this. on one hand i dont think it is broken so to say, but it is really just cancer for the tier. it does everything so much better than most pokemon that it makes you question why you should use it. its like a begnin cancer that you should remove for the overall cause, even if it does not directly hurt you. also the obvious mentions of sd gligar shitting on everything and then evio gligar never dying lol

blizzardy

Not gonna elaborate much since they both have been banned already and everything is explained in the thread.

Swirlix- Just ban it.

Gligar- This one was a little tougher but I think I'm going to vote for a ban on the grounds that it has so many sets making it the go-to pokemon for almost every team. 40% usage is ridiculous in any metagame.

Wobbyble

Not gonna elaborate much since they both have been banned already and everything is explained in the thread.

Swirlix- Just ban it.

Gligar- This one was a little tougher but I think I'm going to vote for a ban on the grounds that it has so many sets making it the go-to pokemon for almost every team. 40% usage is ridiculous in any metagame.

macle

swirlix ban

With Swirlix power and versatility, he is extremely hard to counter. It can sweep very easily depending on the set its using against your team. It makes team building restricted.

Gligar no ban

I'm not 100% sure of Gligar's brokenness. I feel with Swirlix around, people aren't really getting too creative with Gligar checks and counters. A lot of people just slap on Slowpoke or Porygon and think that will get the job done. I'd like to see a meta without Swirlix in it to see how Gligar is but thats not gonna happen.

Corkscrew

Ban Swirlix
Swirlix is the most threatening late-game sweeper I've ever used in Little Cup. It's so versatile that it is impossible to prepare for every single variant during teambuilding. It literally has ways to get round every single one of its counters. It seems that whenever a new counter to Swirlix was discovered, a new variant of Swirlix was created which allowed it to beat it. The unpredictability of the sets also means that, even if you prepare for it, if you guess the set wrong during the battle, it could cost you the match. It also need very little support and you can be in a really bad position, but be saved just because you have the right set against the right team. Even though it does have some okay checks, just having Swirlix on a team forces the opponent to play incredibly conservatively with the checks and that might end up being a waste of time because it isn't the set you think it is.

Ban Gligar
This thing discourages people from playing LC, centralises the metagame, outclasses so many other things in so many roles, and is incredibly versatile. It is also really broken. The Swords Dance set is an incredible sweeper, and like Swirlix, it can run different final moves to get round counters which makes it really hard to prepare for. Knock Off is especially broken, I illustrated in the thread how this move allows it to get past its best 'counters'. Sub is also really good to avoid status, activate berry juice, or have a safeguard against faster things. Baton Pass gets you past Shellos, which is the only thing that counters the Knock Off set, or other walls like Slowpoke, then you can proceed to wreck with Scraggy, Pawniard or something else. Aqua Tail lets you win Gligar wars (which happen too often). Agility can get you past faster scarfers. And even if the opposing team has faster scarfers, it can still just switch out, and pretty much guarantee a KO next time it switches in. With Berry Juice and decent bulk, even without eviolite, it has the longevity to switch in throughout the game, so it constantly puts pressure on the other team. I was very vocal about Gligar being broken in the thread so I've said all this stuff there in more detail.

Sorry if this is a bit all over the place, I'm very headachey/tired right now, also not sure how much I'm expected to write.

Treecko

if my stuff here sounds dumb, you can make something up for me. I'm a lil drunk atm.

Gligar: ban
Gligar is retarded. It makes the metagame revolve around it because it's too good not to use on nearly every team. Ridiculous stats (literally bulkier than Ferroseed with good Attack and amazing Speed), a disgusting dual STAB that's resisted by few Pokemon which can be hit by coverage moves anyways (Aqua Tail which is good for hitting other Gligar hits Archen, Knock Off bones Bronzor), great movepool, decent abilities, etc. It's like the perfect Pokemon. This wouldn't be such a big deal if it wasn't also one of the most threatening Pokemon in the meta, but it is. SD Gligar wrecks so much, and because of its amazing bulk, it can take even super effective priority attacks and just regain its HP with Berry Juice. Gligar is just ridiculously unhealthy for the metagame, and it needs to go lol.

Swirlix: do not ban
I know this is totally in vain, but I'm sticking to my guns on this one. Swirlix is a top threat in Little Cup. It's powerful and dangerously versatile. But new checks and counters pop up for it all the time. Inventive ways of checking Swirlix are all over. I just feel like people are too lazy to explore and too intimidated to prepare too much for it. The reactions I've seen from people have been like "well it's going to fuck me anyways, might as well just tiptoe around it when I run into it." I'm not convinced that Swirlix is broken, but I'm also not convinced that it's not. Like I said in the suspect thread, I would rather see how the meta adapts to Swirlix without Gligar distracting people during teambuilding before I made a decision on it.

Goddess Briyella

I am voting to ban both Swirlix and Gligar.

Swirlix is overwhelmingly difficult to prepare for and beat with its low-risk/high-reward tactics combined with its ability to run three different sets all with the possibility of carrying moves to get around even its most reliable and dedicated "checks". Being able to boost so much so quickly while being as offensively versatile and threatening as it is, it is something that is too powerful for Little Cup and deserves a place among the ranks of Sneasel, Scyther, Yanma, and Tangela in my objective view, in banishment from the tier. Good riddance.

Gligar's bulk, utility, Speed, offensive prowess, setup capabilities, and hazard control attributes are all part of what makes it a very good Pokemon that is able to fit onto any team, and any kind of playstyle in the tier greatly appreciates having it on board. While I feel that its only broken approach is the Swords Dance/Acrobatics/Earthquake/Knock Off set with Berry Juice, its vast array of other capabilities combined with its access to fast healing and disruption of the enemy thanks to its access to Roost, Taunt, and U-turn make it a cancerous part of Little Cup since it's so hard to deal with, even with super effective attacks. The justified usage this encourages causes Gligar to land on the vast majority of teams where it is always fun to use but a huge chore and annoyance to play against, and I feel that its unpredictability, extreme difficulty to take down, the SPEED TIES, and the centralization around it that is occurring as a result of these things only further contributes to the unhealthiness of having Gligar running loose in Little Cup. It needs to go.

tl;dr

Swirlix is way too powerful and hard to prepare for; it needs to go. Gligar can do too much and is too hard to kill; players can't be blamed for abusing it because of how useful it really is, but it should be out of their reach because it's cancerous for the tier.

DTC

Gligar: Ban
Gligar is a bit weird. I would not say it's broken purely based on its offensive prowess like most suspects are banned for, although SD Gligar is a very potent threat. However, the combination of its offensive + defensive + supportive attributes push it over the top. It's the best Stealth Rock and Defog Pokemon, checks pretty much anything physical that isn't a Water- or Ice-type, can gain momentum with U-turn or cripple stuff with Knock Off, and do so much other things. Obviously Gligar can't do everything at once, but it's very versatile in both the sense that it has a lot of different move options, as well as the fact that it's just generally useful in a lot of relevant situations. This versatility and general consistency makes Gligar the ultimate glue Pokemon.

So why does this make Gligar broken? Well, the fact that it can do so much, and is the "ultimate glue Pokemon", means that pretty much every team greatly benefits from a Gligar. Almost every team should have a Gligar, which really stifles the metagame. Gligar's 40% usage on the ladder (and weight of 0.81, meaning it's used a lot by players higher ranked) as well as 77% usage in the first 4 weeks of SPL is data which proves that most teams become a lot better with Gligar in them. Gligar is a step above the rest of the Pokemon in LC, with the only thing that really keeps it in check being its 4x Ice-type weakness which the whole metagame warps around in an attempt to check Gligar. Gligar is unhealthy for the metagame, and should thus be removed.


Swirlix: Ban
Swirlix is extremely hard to properly prepare for. It has two really good sets that have widely different counters for the most part, and can run a bunch of different variations of each set to make a certain set of checks obsolete. While Swirlix can obviously not carry a billion moves at once, switching the wrong check in may mean you lose the game, or at least have to sacrifice some Pokemon to get the right Pokemon in. This would not be so bad if Swirlix had trouble setting up, but it's easy to find an opportunity to set up because of good bulk for an offensive Pokemon + Fairy-typing + Berry Juice, and Cotton Guard / Calm Mind sets are especially easy to setup. You don't necessarily need a solid check to beat a Pokemon without much trouble, but revenge killing Swirlix is also a challenge since it hits 28 Speed after Unburden, which ties with 19 Speed Choice Scarf Pokemon and Chlorophyll Bulbasaur, both of which need to be +Speed nature to outspeed. Swirlix is also resistant to Fighting- and Dark-type priority. This means the only priority that is actually solid for revenge killing Swirlix (factoring in common Pokemon + priority actually strong enough) is Fake Out, Aqua Jet, Bullet Punch, and Acrobatics.

Basically, Swirlix puts way too much pressure in any given match. As it's easy to set up, it can wait until its checks are worn down a bit before setting up without having to worry about finding an opportunity to set up. When fighting Swirlix, you have no idea what variations it may have, which makes checking it really difficult, since you don't know what Pokemon to preserve for later on in the match. In most scenarios, you can't even just sacrifice a Pokemon and then revenge kill Swirlix later, as that's just a free set up turn for Swirlix, and revenge killing anything aside from Belly Drum is almost impossible -- and even Belly Drum isn't trivial to revenge. You have to go way too far just to properly prepare for Swirlix, because it's easy for it to pull off a sweep even if you have prepared a lot for it just because of all of the different viable variations it has, as well as the general ease it has in setting up.

ashley11

First of all I'd like to thank you for choosing me on the rotating council. Second of all, am I supposed to send my votes to you AND macle, or just one of you? Anyways, here are my votes.

I am voting to BAN Swirlix. Swirlix is broken in this metagame. It has 5 or 6 different variations of different sets that all have different counters. This makes Swirlix nearly impossible to completely counter on a team, as there is usually always at least one set that will end up breaking through your team because you weren't able to prepare for EVERY Swirlix set. Therefore, since Swirlix cannot be countered without a team being dedicated to it, it is obviously broken and centralizing to try to counter, as it takes an entire team to completely counter it.

I am also voting to BAN Gligar. Gligar is not exactly broken, but it is definitely centralizing. There should definitely not be a Gligar on 40% of the teams, as that is an insane amount for a usage statistic. Gligar can do so many things that it ends up being hard to not use Gligar. It also has a bunch of flexibility thanks to all of the different moves it can use. Because of this, it is nearly impossible to predict gligar most of the time, which can in the long run really screw you up. Gligar is making the metagame not as fun to a bunch of people, because seeing it on 40% of the teams in combination of it being impossible to fully predict can really be unappealing to many players. It is also not very enjoyable to rely on the extra 19 speed speedties gligar tends to help build on. Because of all of this I must say that Gligar is very centralizing and driving many players away from LC, making it banworthy.

atomicllamas

Swirlix: Ban
Swirlix is without a doubt the most threatening pokemon in the tier right now, with three different extremely deadly and powerful sets, it is capable of sweeping with one turn of set up (Belly Drum and Cotton Guard). Because of how deadly each of these sets are if you make the wrong play, and each set has a different way to beat them, it creates a mind game with a large advantage for the Swirlix user almost every time it switches in. Swirlix is also almost impossible to revenge kill after it sets up thanks to above average bulk for an offensive pokemon and unburden. Basically Swirlix is just too powerful for the LC meta game to handle right now.

Gligar: Ban
Unlike Swirlix, Gligar is not extremely broken, in fact I am still not sure whether or not it is. However, Gligar is a cancer to the meta game, making it stale, and frankly boring due to the fact there is legitimately no reason to not run Gligar. It has come to the point where almost every single high level team has to have a Gligar and at least 3 checks to Gligar if it even wants a chance at competing in the LC meta game. This is needs to be fixed so LC can be more than just Gligar wars.

heysup

Gligar: Ban

• Gligar's Swords Dance set has too much immediate power and Swords Dance lets it bypass a lot of its would-be counters. It's bulky enough to bypass nonspecialized counters such as Slowpoke and fast enough to outpace almost the entire LC metagame.
• It has too many other viable options such as Knock Off and U-turn, both of which dismantle certain other counters. It has Baton Pass which can mean game over if there's no double switch to an Ice-type Pokemon that is at risk of being KOed by Earthquake. Stealth Rock is hard to set up...unless you have Gligar do it. Gligar can also defog, Roost, and Aqua Tail to beat other specific pokemon.
• Too many sets that would qualify as banworthy.

Swirlix: Ban

• Preparing for one variant often means losing to another. It is too easy for someone to guess wrong and lose a game instantly and requires very little skill besides knowing who you press Calm Mind against and who you press Cotton Guard, or Belly Drum whatever the fuck set it is.
• After set up, practically impossible to reliably revenge kill due to Cotton Guard or Protect.
• It is not even that cute.

 

[Antar]

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