-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Sword & Shield **Official news only** DLC Crown Tundra 22nd October
- Thread starter DHR-107
- Start date
So I've been considering the directions that the Pokemon franchise could go from this point.
Although 1000 isn't impossible to handle now, if we want the game to keep improving, there is pretty good reason to limit the number of actually usable pokemon in a region. Other franchises with excessive pools of data (I'm thinking TCGs like Magic the Gathering, Yugioh, and even pokemon itself) get to the point where it's beneficial to have a 'standard' rotation with only the current selection legal. Although we don't have thousands of cards like MTG, they don't need full size models with countless animations (in fact, MTGA, the new online client only uses standard for that exact reason: it limits the number of animations they've had to design).
I've been thinking heavily, and although the models are 100% future proof, I can't see anyone disagreeing that the animations can and should receive major overhauls. (I know we haven't seen them yet, but bear with me). Similarly, we could have expanded pokedex type entries, and a limited selection per gen/game would allow for higher quality content in less time. By culling the number of 'standard' pokemon in a given generation, we can have much better content. For example, if each game was limited to using X number of pokemon in game for the main parts of the game (i.e. story, amie, online), the development could be solely focused on making better more expressive animations: attack, idle, reactive, interactive, etc, and dex entries.
In exchange for limiting the number of 'standard' pokemon in game, there could be a separate mode that allows for 'legacy' collection and battling. Maybe there could be an in-world version of pokemon showdown where trainers use any pokemon they want. It would allow for older formats, would use either lower poly models and worse animations, or simply nicer sprites. It would allow people to continue loving and using all of their pokemon and carry them from game to game, and when your lanturn comes back into standard you can use discharge in all its glory with your friend you've had since gen 3!!!
Now, I am aware that this not perfect, nor the most desirable, but it would be a nice long term solution that would at least be better and more understandable than 'you lose half your pokemon you love'.
Or maybe I'm stupid and this only appeals to me! Yay!
Although 1000 isn't impossible to handle now, if we want the game to keep improving, there is pretty good reason to limit the number of actually usable pokemon in a region. Other franchises with excessive pools of data (I'm thinking TCGs like Magic the Gathering, Yugioh, and even pokemon itself) get to the point where it's beneficial to have a 'standard' rotation with only the current selection legal. Although we don't have thousands of cards like MTG, they don't need full size models with countless animations (in fact, MTGA, the new online client only uses standard for that exact reason: it limits the number of animations they've had to design).
I've been thinking heavily, and although the models are 100% future proof, I can't see anyone disagreeing that the animations can and should receive major overhauls. (I know we haven't seen them yet, but bear with me). Similarly, we could have expanded pokedex type entries, and a limited selection per gen/game would allow for higher quality content in less time. By culling the number of 'standard' pokemon in a given generation, we can have much better content. For example, if each game was limited to using X number of pokemon in game for the main parts of the game (i.e. story, amie, online), the development could be solely focused on making better more expressive animations: attack, idle, reactive, interactive, etc, and dex entries.
In exchange for limiting the number of 'standard' pokemon in game, there could be a separate mode that allows for 'legacy' collection and battling. Maybe there could be an in-world version of pokemon showdown where trainers use any pokemon they want. It would allow for older formats, would use either lower poly models and worse animations, or simply nicer sprites. It would allow people to continue loving and using all of their pokemon and carry them from game to game, and when your lanturn comes back into standard you can use discharge in all its glory with your friend you've had since gen 3!!!
Now, I am aware that this not perfect, nor the most desirable, but it would be a nice long term solution that would at least be better and more understandable than 'you lose half your pokemon you love'.
Or maybe I'm stupid and this only appeals to me! Yay!
It has nothing to do with balance or looking cool - it's literally to sell games and toys, no other point. They gave popular Pokemon the Mega treatment b/c they have brand recognition over, say, Granbull. Mega Granbull ain't going to sell toys, Mega Charizard? Hell yeah. It's a new thing, so people bought toys.
Then Gen 7 came around, and since Megas were no longer the "new thing" they got rid of them to sell Z-Crystals, b/c oh boy, new super power move, gotta buy that toy so I can be just like my char in game!
Now, instead of putting work into support the gimmicks they introduced to sell more toys, it's cheaper just to cut them out and bring in another stupid gimmick to, say it with me, s e l l m o r e t o y s.
If Gamefreak is complaining about having too much to add, it's their own [insert swear] fault.
Something confusing to me is looking at this from the perspective of LGPE. We were told over and over that those games were supposed to be a good main game entry point for a lot of new players; and yet, when the new main game rolls around... it doesn't have Mega Evolutions, it certainly doesn't look like every Kanto Pokémon will be in the game; and I will be surprised if there are any Alolan Forms. This kind of seems to make the LGPE-as-an-entry-point angle backfire a little.
What kind of toys are they going to sell? Giant plushies? Don't they already do that?
All they have is that stupid wrist band.
Probably. Large ball + giant plush + branding == whatever Nintendo marketing execs think they can sell. Kids are stupid, remember.
Talking of lots of useless stuff, even though I don't like that this cutting of Pokémon has to happen, I want to bring up one benefit of it that Codraroll has brought up a fair bit in the past: a lack of a huge backlog of items that Game Freak no longer needs to find a place to scatter around the game, and we no longer have to shove in our bags. Granted, this is only if the relevant Pokémon are cut; but given that most of them are alternate form connected and most are Legendary connected, I feel this is likely.
The Plates. The Time/Space Orbs. The Red/Blue Orbs. The Therian Form Mirror. The Drives. Mega Stones, Z-Crystals, a Deoxys meteor, a person to teach Keldeo and Meloetta moves. All this and more that previously required shoving into the game somehow is no longer a factor, and that at least is a nice positive. I'm sure a couple might still be a thing, but it looks like the majority will be cut and that's a positive I'm gonna take from this decision.
The Plates. The Time/Space Orbs. The Red/Blue Orbs. The Therian Form Mirror. The Drives. Mega Stones, Z-Crystals, a Deoxys meteor, a person to teach Keldeo and Meloetta moves. All this and more that previously required shoving into the game somehow is no longer a factor, and that at least is a nice positive. I'm sure a couple might still be a thing, but it looks like the majority will be cut and that's a positive I'm gonna take from this decision.
Ironically this news might be getting me back into seriously playing again.
Now that Pokemon Home is announced, there's an implicit time limit on Pokemon Bank's lifespan, which means forward transfers from past gens are on the clock. Which means I've actually got to get around to mining them for cool and unique mons now.
Also, from a greed perspective, maybe collectors will trade their unique mons, stuck in gen 7, for cheap if it actually comes out that there are limits on what can go forward into SwSh? Maybe...? Nah, probably not.
Now that Pokemon Home is announced, there's an implicit time limit on Pokemon Bank's lifespan, which means forward transfers from past gens are on the clock. Which means I've actually got to get around to mining them for cool and unique mons now.
Also, from a greed perspective, maybe collectors will trade their unique mons, stuck in gen 7, for cheap if it actually comes out that there are limits on what can go forward into SwSh? Maybe...? Nah, probably not.
Guys omg i finally found one of the high quality animations theyve been working on, and i promise its not the scorbunny double kick
https://streamable.com/frva6
Look at these smooth wingull flapping animations, our pokemon died so we can get this masterpiece, just as smooth as a T-posing hovering paper plane. (Even oras wingulls had wings flapping)
How about this one?
https://m.imgur.com/cc8CppW
The animations almost look as natural as a ps1 game thats still figuring out how humans actually move smoothly. So great!
Seriously though. Theyve given us zero reasons to believe any good animations is coming cause we have seen only recycled ones and zero good new ones so far.
https://streamable.com/frva6
Look at these smooth wingull flapping animations, our pokemon died so we can get this masterpiece, just as smooth as a T-posing hovering paper plane. (Even oras wingulls had wings flapping)
How about this one?
https://m.imgur.com/cc8CppW
The animations almost look as natural as a ps1 game thats still figuring out how humans actually move smoothly. So great!
Seriously though. Theyve given us zero reasons to believe any good animations is coming cause we have seen only recycled ones and zero good new ones so far.
> me as I try to complete some last breeding projects that I had left over from when I quit playing Pokemon
True, but those battles took longer at the cost of expressive animations.
True, but it showed effort unlike now. And if it's too much, they could only use that level of quality (with all the voice acting) for gym leaders, and other special trainers.
Aside from the ones we've been shown so far, what Pokémon do you guys think are likely? Gen 1 Pokémon seem up there for me, including the rest of the starters and legendaries -- not just because of general Gen 1 clout, but also they already have Switch models. Those with other-gen evolutions like Tangela and Mr. Mime seem a little less viable because of that latter reason, though.
In terms of popular Pokémon, I could also certainly see Volcarona; and it would be hard for me to believe "Sword and Shield" would not have Aegislash. Then again, Bellossom got left out of the Alola festivities...
Also, Throh, because Sawk is already there and it would be pretty weird to have one and not the other.
In terms of popular Pokémon, I could also certainly see Volcarona; and it would be hard for me to believe "Sword and Shield" would not have Aegislash. Then again, Bellossom got left out of the Alola festivities...
Also, Throh, because Sawk is already there and it would be pretty weird to have one and not the other.
In all fairness, this is just a demo reel. A bad showcase, yes. However, it could very well be the fact that they're patching this up as another reason why they can't fit all the mons in. I'm lowkey hoping this game's ingame story is trash so that I don't even think about spending $400 for one game but I have to be as objective as I can be here. LGPE didn't have bad looking animations and I think they did a solid job.
I’m expecting Houndour because according to Serebii, Electrike is in the game, and recently these lines have been version exclusives.
Man, I thought showcase is supposed to wow us into buying something, giving it their best. If world-without-friction wingulls and stilted walking in place to turn around is their best showcase, I shudder to think what's their less-than-optimal efforts.
Looking at Gen VII in hindsight, one thing really stands out. Remember when we learned that Megas wouldn't be available until postgame, and that no new ones would be added? Remember how quickly after that we concluded that Z-Moves would also be a passing fad, to be pushed out of the limelight in favour of the Shiny New Toy of next generation? As it stands, it looks like we were right from the beginning. When Game Freak "semi-discarded" Mega Evolution, we knew that Z-Moves would be no different. Maybe included in the postgame of the next generation, but certainly not expanded upon. And frankly, what was there to expand? The type-specific Z-Crystals already meant that every move would have a corresponding Z-Move by default. All that could be done was to make more signature Z-Moves, which looked good in trailers but were probably expensive to animate and gave little value in return for their cost.
And now we have Dynamaxing as the next Shiny New Toy. It seems like they have a system in place that automatically gives every Pokémon and every move in the game the "Dynamax treatment". As far as we can tell, there doesn't seem to be any potential to expand on the mechanic. It already smells like a single-gen gimmick that will be made obsolete in the next generation. We can tell today, half a year before the games are even out, that we probably shouldn't expect Dynamaxing to stay in the series for any longer than it takes TPC to think of a new gimmick.
I think this is one of the problems Pokémon really has to face in the next few years. Enough games have come out now that fans can begin to see patterns, and a message from Game Freak starts to appear in them. Let's work backwards: Z-Moves. Poké Pelago. DexNav. Mega Evolution. The PSS. Seasons. Dynamic background music. Dream World. C-Gear. PWT. VS. Seeker. Secret bases. Battle Frontier. Following Pokémon. And now, back to the present, apparently a huge chunk of the Pokémon roster itself. The message is becoming clearer for every game: "Don't get too attached to the new innovations, they are not meant to stay."
Think a new mechanic is kind of neat? Really liked a newly introduced feature? Over time, Game Freak has started to make it painfully clear that they have no qualms about removing it, and they've just expanded the scope of what they are willing to remove quite drastically. That kind of moves, repeated over time, will make the fanbase cynical. We're at the point where we're starting to tell each other, and even spreading the message beyond the circle of Pokémon fans: "Don't get attached. It will not last."
TPC has enjoyed a couple of decades of free marketing via word of mouth, a Pokémon fanbase that wildly promotes their franchise better than any PR department ever could. Fansites like SPP or Bulbagarden, big YouTubers (not just dedicated PokeTubers, although those certainly help condensing content and spreading excitement to people who make videos about all types of games thanks to overlapping fanbases), pages on DeviantArt or Tumblr, memes all over the place, Facebook fan groups. We like the games, and we like to tell the world. TPC benefits immensely from this arrangement, but it has a backside: if the mentality shifts, no amount of PR from TPC could ever quench the flames (and without any decent PR infrastructure of their own, their ability to damage control is pretty much zilch anyway). If bad executive decisions cause an unfortunate narrative to stick in the mainstream, things will go downhill like a poorly parked cement truck with faulty brakes. Let's hope further news are good, because I think we're about to reach that tipping point. We've always had "TrollFreak" jokes, but now it seems like a majority of fans are calling them out as incompetent, lazy and more than a bit greedy. What's worse, it isn't about a bad decision made now, it's about a poor track record for the last half decade or more. And that message is about to spread through the grapevine.
And now we have Dynamaxing as the next Shiny New Toy. It seems like they have a system in place that automatically gives every Pokémon and every move in the game the "Dynamax treatment". As far as we can tell, there doesn't seem to be any potential to expand on the mechanic. It already smells like a single-gen gimmick that will be made obsolete in the next generation. We can tell today, half a year before the games are even out, that we probably shouldn't expect Dynamaxing to stay in the series for any longer than it takes TPC to think of a new gimmick.
I think this is one of the problems Pokémon really has to face in the next few years. Enough games have come out now that fans can begin to see patterns, and a message from Game Freak starts to appear in them. Let's work backwards: Z-Moves. Poké Pelago. DexNav. Mega Evolution. The PSS. Seasons. Dynamic background music. Dream World. C-Gear. PWT. VS. Seeker. Secret bases. Battle Frontier. Following Pokémon. And now, back to the present, apparently a huge chunk of the Pokémon roster itself. The message is becoming clearer for every game: "Don't get too attached to the new innovations, they are not meant to stay."
Think a new mechanic is kind of neat? Really liked a newly introduced feature? Over time, Game Freak has started to make it painfully clear that they have no qualms about removing it, and they've just expanded the scope of what they are willing to remove quite drastically. That kind of moves, repeated over time, will make the fanbase cynical. We're at the point where we're starting to tell each other, and even spreading the message beyond the circle of Pokémon fans: "Don't get attached. It will not last."
TPC has enjoyed a couple of decades of free marketing via word of mouth, a Pokémon fanbase that wildly promotes their franchise better than any PR department ever could. Fansites like SPP or Bulbagarden, big YouTubers (not just dedicated PokeTubers, although those certainly help condensing content and spreading excitement to people who make videos about all types of games thanks to overlapping fanbases), pages on DeviantArt or Tumblr, memes all over the place, Facebook fan groups. We like the games, and we like to tell the world. TPC benefits immensely from this arrangement, but it has a backside: if the mentality shifts, no amount of PR from TPC could ever quench the flames (and without any decent PR infrastructure of their own, their ability to damage control is pretty much zilch anyway). If bad executive decisions cause an unfortunate narrative to stick in the mainstream, things will go downhill like a poorly parked cement truck with faulty brakes. Let's hope further news are good, because I think we're about to reach that tipping point. We've always had "TrollFreak" jokes, but now it seems like a majority of fans are calling them out as incompetent, lazy and more than a bit greedy. What's worse, it isn't about a bad decision made now, it's about a poor track record for the last half decade or more. And that message is about to spread through the grapevine.
They're not. I know it. You know it. Everyone knows it. What we've seen from the demo is definitely what we're getting. There has never been a noticeable difference between demos and the actual games ever since they started doing demos and I wouldn't expect that to change now. And true, the animations aren't bad, but they're not "high quality" either and haven't been improved upon at all.
That "this won't last" mentality as well as continued ongoing problems with the franchise (IVs, HMs lasting too long, stilted movement, endless gimmicks, archaic presentation - seriously the battles still look like two pokemon standing there on discs generating particle effects on each other - two version chucklefuckery) it's a loooong list, is what made me jump ship from Pokemon games since the onset of Gen 4. I feel that message has been hammered into my brain long enough and I started to deride the games, mock the competitive scene, mock everything about Pokemon. But it seems like it's catching on in the fanbase. It took long enough, but I hope people begin to realize how much of an empty, out-of-touchincompetent suit Game Freak and The Pokemon Company are.
actually, animations are pretty fucking terrible, let's not kid ourselves; people ragged on the Mario Party 4 cutscenes for being horrendous and aging terribly; Pokemon, like the broken-looking Wingull, looks somehow worse than Mario Party 4 in some aspects now and this is inexcusable for a big-budget game by professionals)
I remember you wrote about the "winner's curse" in another thread on here and how it applies to Pokemon. I worry we might be about to hit the point you discussed there, given that these games are eating a PR hit right around the point that much of their target audience are considering whether or not to buy an expensive new console to play them. Not only that, but a part of the reason for that -- keeping up with the series -- just became irrelevant with the confirmation that continuity of collections isn't a sacred cow anymore.
And, like you said, the complaints are sounding like a dam of frustration breaking. There's a general consensus that the decline in quality started with XY, which was probably not coincidentally the last time the series changed console.
Man who cares about how long the battle lasts? If you want short and fast games play Showdown. 1080p PBR is seriously one of the best looking Pokemon games I'd ever see and honestly would be the game I'd use for my kids since god knows where Pokemon will go 10+ years from now.
Honestly, I really hope that the singles competitive scene is half decent thanks to this Pokedex cut. Sadly Smogon alone can't balance a metagame and I miss the DPP days where the only objectively broken mon was Garchomp.
I'm actually stoked to play non-Landorus with no Fairy Guarandians AND no Ultra Beasts if that's what they're thinking. What a gift.
Then we get a probably well thought out clash between a handful of Ubers on Unranked. I'm feeling very pre bank XYish which was a good year's end minus Kang.
No 9-1 matchups or team preview loss means higher skill ceiling.
Then we get a probably well thought out clash between a handful of Ubers on Unranked. I'm feeling very pre bank XYish which was a good year's end minus Kang.
No 9-1 matchups or team preview loss means higher skill ceiling.
I'd guess that max moves probably have some Protect-breaking aspect to them like Z moves and then Max Guard can fully protect against them while also being like a Mat Block you could use for the party in raid battles. Also by all indications, Dynamaxing *is* inherently centralizing/broken as they cited competitive balance as one of the reasons for leaving Pokemon out. That's the problem with all these new gameplay gimmicks that are designed to maximize each Pokemon's potential or whatever but can only be used once per battle: many Pokemon are just designed to be the early-route fodder or the mooks the evil gang uses, and any mechanic that aims to make them competitively viable is just going to make something better that gets it broken (or at least make it still not worthwhile to use that weaker Pokemon). Meanwhile, over the past 3 generations the Mega Stones and Z Crystals been basically the only competitively viable hold items released (Assault Vest being the only other I could really think of) and I could probably use two hands to count the number of competitively viable moves introduced since then that aren't either STAB Fairy attacks or the exclusive signature move of a legendary or some crappy Alola mon that doesn't have the stats/ability to use it (and won't even be able to use it while dynamaxed lol).
Last edited: