tagging movesets to improve searchablity.

I think having every move set tagged for the roles they fill (such as "Lead", "mixed sweeper" or "baton passer"), then allowing sorting Pokemon by tags would make it easier to find the kind of Pokemon you want for a team.


While this would require going in and tagging every moveset in the system, I think it wouldn't be that hard to do the "tagging" when entries are written for gen 5 (as that will have to be done from scratch anyways).
 

cim

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I love the suggestion! As long as we steer clear of a system that over-emphasizes generic roles, I think it'd be great. (We don't want people thinking "oh all teams need a lead, a physical sweeper, a mixed sweeper, a special asweeper, and two walls! here ill use the tags")
 
This would be very useful. I for one, hate thinking Hmmm.. Who's a good mixed sweeper? I really don't want to use Electevire.. and clicking on every freakin' analysis to find one.
 

az

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yeah, totally game and the intuitive next step (we search for pokemon when we often mean to look for "roles", so why not?)

would like to suggest the tags to be used are agreed upon for the most part before we dive headlong into this though, to make sure we don't have a "physical sweeper, physicalsweeper, physical_sweeper" situation; shitty organisation undermines this sort of thing entirely
 

Fatecrashers

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If such a system is indeed going to be implemented, I wonder if we will try to accommodate every moveset available in the analysis pages in a category or is it sufficient to just categorise the common archetypes like 'Anti-lead', 'Physical Wall' etc.
 
I think it would better for them to have multiple tags, so there are not pages and pages of everything that has a SD set when you search "physical sweeper"

For example Infernapes SD set should be something like: Fast, Fire, Fighting, Physical, OU. So people could search for their specific needs.
 

chaos

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Sounds like a great idea. Although "baton passer" can be inferred from whether it has the move baton pass or not :) Could we infer mixed sweeper from high speed and presence of both special and physical attacks? Lets list what tags would be useful.
 

mingot

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Sounds like a great idea. Although "baton passer" can be inferred from whether it has the move baton pass or not :) Could we infer mixed sweeper from high speed and presence of both special and physical attacks? Lets list what tags would be useful.
I appreciate that you are looking for ways to automate the process.

One problem, though, is that just because a certain pokemon has access to baton pass does not mean that it ever fills that role on a team. The same might be said for high speed atk/spa mons is they have too shallow a movepool to be effective as mixed sweepers. At the end of the day, this sort of tagging is probably best left to humans.

It's certainly worth enumerating all of the potential tags, though.
 

chaos

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Sorry, let me clarify. I did not mean if the Pokemon has Baton Pass, I meant if a moveset the Pokemon has contains Baton Pass. Are there any Pokemon with movesets that include Baton Pass that aren't used as Baton Passers?

Same with mixed sweeper. If a Pokemon has a moveset with (say) Meteor Mash and Flamethrower, and the Pokemon has a high speed stat, we can infer from that that it can be used as a mixed sweeper, can we not? The definition of mixed sweeper is pretty much: the Pokemon has a special move and a physical move and is fast enough to sweep. We could even make use of Choice Scarf in these calculations.
 

mingot

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Ah, I keep forgetting that sets are getting promoted to full fledged entities that we will be able to easily query and forgetting that we won't have to depend solely on dex data going forward. What you propose makes a lot of sense.

This article probably contains most of what we need for roles.

Here are (what I think) are the relevant roles, culled out from that article:

Mixed Sweeper
Phazer / Pseudo-hazer / Shuffler
Physical Sweeper
Pseudo Passer / Dual Screener
Spinblocker (this one might be tough, as it's "ghosts")
Rapid Spinner / Spinner
Revenge Killer / Trapper
Special Sweeper
Status Absorber
Suicide Lead
Supporter
Tank
Wall
Wallbreaker

Formal "query definitions" for all of these will need to be developed.
 
I'd much rather go through the tiers myself and add these tags to sets rather than play the game of inferring what the Pokemon does from the set. Unless we can be sure that there are absolutely no exceptions, I think we'd be better off with man-made tags. I'd even be game to volunteer myself for the job of tagging sets if there is a question of "who would want to do this job?"

I'd also want a bit more definition to the tags. I don't think the above list is really encompassing enough to make this worth it. In C&C, we've been moving set names toward a standard so that they're all named the same (with obvious exceptions due to special custom names). I think if we went ahead and tagged all of the common set names, that'd be a good way to go. So things like...

  • Mono-Attacker
  • All-Out Attacker
  • Anti-Lead
  • Swords Dance
Etc. Obviously, with Swords Dance you can look up the move, but you can't necessarily search for which 'mons are good enough at it that they have sets for it. I think that'd be worth using this for as well.
 
created this list and thought it might be helpful for creating the tags. ideally there would be a page on the home called "Roles", you click it, it gives you these roles, and you click the one you think you need the most after reading the descriptions. the next link would bring you to pokemon with one of these common roles in their sets. thanks GS for looking it over and fixing some stuff.

Glass Cannon Set-up - These Pokemon try to break through teams with a combination of a Set-up move, Speed, and Attack or Special Attack. They do not worry about bulk as much. They can have decent bulk but usually prefer to invest in their Speed and Special Attack or Attack.

Example: Lucario

Bulky Set-up - These Pokemon try to break through teams with a combination of a Set-up move, bulk, and Attack or Special Attack. They can have decent Speed and sometimes invest in it but prefer to invest into their defenses and HP.

Example - Suicune (offensive)

Dedicated Physical Wall - These Pokemon rely on their typing, Defense, HP, and abilities to take on many Physical threats.

Example - Hippowdon

Dedicated Special Wall - These Pokemon rely on their typing, Defense, HP, and abilities to take on many Special threats.

Example - Blissey

Pivot Phsyical Wall - These Pokemon rely on their typing, defenses, HP, abilities, and moves to take on some Physical threats, using the time to support the team and regain momentum quickly. These Pokemon often have decent attacking stats.

Example - Rotom-A

Pivot Special Wall - These Pokemon rely on their typing, defenses, HP, abilities, and moves to take on some Special threats, using the time to support the team and regain momentum quickly. These Pokemon often have decent attacking stats.

Example - Roserade (Defensive Set)

Offensively Bulky (Physical) - These Pokemon use no set-up moves, instead using a combination of sheer Physical power and bulk to overwhelm the opponent. They will sometimes use bluffs to make up for their lack of item.

Example - Tyranitar (Expert Belt)

Offensively Bulky (Special) - These Pokemon use no set-up moves, instead using a combination of sheer Special power and bulk to overwhelm the opponent. They will sometimes use bluffs to make up for their lack of item.

Example - Heatran (Expert Belt)

Offensively Bulky (Mixed) - These Pokemon use no set-up moves, instead choosing Physical and Special attacks, using a combination of sheer power and bulk to overwhelm the opponent, as well as surprise.

Example - Jirachi

Baton Pass - These Pokemon use Baton Pass to boost their teammates stats.

Example - Ninjask

Cleric - These Pokemon are often defensive and use Heal Bell or Aromatherapy to cure their team's status ailments.

Example - Celebi

Suicide Lead - These Pokemon rely on using Stealth Rock quickly to help support the team. They will often sacrifice themselves to obtain Stealth Rock.

Example - Azelf

Anti-Lead - These Pokemon are designed to counter other common leads and prevent Stealth Rock or damage.

Example - Weavile

Weather Leads - These Pokemon are used to quickly create certain weather to help the entire team.

Example - Electrode

Bulky Lead - These leads don't necesarrily counter other leads, but often can get out Stealth Rock and stay healthy.

Example - Swampert

Pure Sweeper (Physical) - These Pokemon are usually quick and will try to take out everything with 1 hit from Physical Attacks. They are frailer than Offensively Bulky Pokemon.

Example - Infernape (4 Atk/Physical)

Pure Sweeper (Special) - These Pokemon are usually quick and will try to take out everything with 1 hit from Special Attacks. They are frailer than Offensively Bulky Pokemon.

Example - Gengar

Pure Sweeper (Mixed) - These Pokemon are usually quick and will try to take out everything with 1 hit from both Physical and Special Attacks. They are frailer than Offensively Bulky Pokemon. These Pokemon often rely on surprise.

Example - Flygon

Sunny Day Sweeper - These Pokemon rely on Sunny Day to be active to sweep.

Example - Tangrowth

Rain Dance Sweeper - These Pokemon rely on Rain Dance to be active to sweep.

Example - Kingdra

Hail Abusing Pokemon - These Pokemon improve dramatically when Hail is the current weather condition.

Example - Glaceon

Instant Weather - These Pokemon automatically create weather when introduced to the field.

Example - Tyranitar

Slow Set-up - These Pokemon rely on a set-up move slowly giving them more boosts to succeed.

Example - Suicune (Crocune)

SubSeed - These Pokemon rely on stalling an opponent out with Substitute and Leech Seed.

Example - Sceptile

Encore - These Pokemon provide set-up for themselves and other Pokemon with Encore.

Example - Wobbuffet

Dedicated Lure - These Pokemon lure in their common Counters and defeat them, allowing other Pokemon with shared counters more sweeping capability.

Example - Heatran (Life Orb/Substitute)
 
imo we should be aiming to keep the tags as specific as possible while avoiding redundancy, trying to ensure that each pokemon set has one tag. an example of a change i would suggest to kd24's list would be dropping "weather lead" and replacing "rain dance sweeper" with simply "rain dance" to include rain supporters like bronzong, scizor, and jirachi. i'm also not really seeing the difference between slow set-up and bulky set-up.

an issue i have here is that some sets might play different roles (and therefore require different tags) based on a single move choice. for example, the rest/talk gyarados set on site is:

waterfall
rest
sleep talk
roar / dragon dance.

the problem is that versions with roar are going to play radically different from versions with dragon dance. do we need to add entire new sets to analysis based on playing different roles on teams?

i'd also like tags for things like ludicolo's ubers sets. "ubers pokemon" or whatever. same applies for uus with ou sets like lantern.

just some random thoughts i had.
 

mingot

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waterfall
rest
sleep talk
roar / dragon dance.
If the slashed moves cause a Pokemon to be able to play as more than one role, that many tags are added to the set. I think the user who searches for a shuffler who sees that set come up will understand that he needs to use roar over dragon dance ;)
 

cim

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I know this is a bit pedantic, but I really object to using the terms "physical wall" and "special wall" at all. I really think those particular terms are not very relevant at all anymore. On a normal team, you don't put on "a physical wall and a special wall", but you may put on some defensive Pokemon that can take hits well and specifically handle threat X, Y, or Z. As an example, look at the classic Fire - Water - Grass core - what's the physical wall there? The special wall? I think the terms are deprecated, really, except for fringe cases like Blissey. I guess you can say which defense you're stacking more of and what hits the Pokemon generally takes, but it's really a concept that's far from useful when actually team building and I think it will only encourage "laundry list teambuilding", which I've already stated I abhor.

The objection could be generalized to a lot of roles, but I feel that the wall case in particular is bad, while others are at least arguable.
 

Alaka

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Sorry, let me clarify. I did not mean if the Pokemon has Baton Pass, I meant if a moveset the Pokemon has contains Baton Pass. Are there any Pokemon with movesets that include Baton Pass that aren't used as Baton Passers?
Some Pokemon like specs Jolteon use it as a scouting move, without actually passing anything.
 

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I think the issue with inferring a tag programmatically from the set is how unreliable it is. What do you identify as high speed, high attack, high anything? The meaning of it changes per tier and could probably change randomly because of a metagame shift, and requires a lot of tweaking on what that value actually is. There are also likely going to be exceptions to any particular archetype where at least a purely programmed tagging system is going to be more trouble than its worth. Given a pokemon may only belong to maybe 2 tags on average, it shouldn't be too much trouble to simply select them from dropdowns.

A programmed system to give initial tags to the already existing database though could be useful. Any incorrect tagging could be reported and replaced.
 
I think the tags associated with the pokemon themselves could be simple attributes, and that the "search options" could be made of combinations of these attributes. Rather than labeling a set "physical sweeper", the set could have multiple, more specific labels, and the search would look for a combination of labels. For instance, if we had labels like:

Fast / Medium / Slow
Physical / Special / mixed
setup / non setup
Bulky / Medium / Fragile
Powerful / Medium / Weak
Entry hazards / other support options
Baton Pass (obviously you look for baton pass and setup moves before putting this label on something)

Now if you look for physical sweeper, it looks for things like speed, physical power and setup ability, and lists whichever have the right labels. You could also specify fast physical sweeper, bulky physical sweeper, and get more specific results, or you could just search physical sweeper and browse all of the options. A system like this seems more robust to me, because it allows very specific searching, while also allowing very objective labelling. I dare say all of the labels I mentioned could be applied with a computer program running over the same database that the damage calculator uses (you'd need to first set the boundaries for things like fast / medium / slow).

Unfortunately, you would probably need different classes of labels for each label for each teir, since things like bulk, speed, and power are relative based on the tier. The search utility would have to the ability to select tiers, then, too. This would be interesting, though, since you could expand your search for that certain niche spot on your team into UU while keeping the rating thresholds of OU, provided you're looking for something to put on an OU team.

I also don't see why the flaws of building cookie-cutter teams ought to discourage this project. Such a project could be used just as easily for good team building as for bad. If somebody is going to pick a team by searching "physical sweeper - special sweeper - physical wall - special wall - stealth rock - mixed sweeper", they're not going to do it because this project exists. They're just going to do it more easily because the project exists. I see no problem with that.

What I've suggested is probably the complicated version, and there'd be things both practical and conceptual to iron out, but it would make a fantastic tool. I'm already seeing problems with some of the things I've mentioned, but I'm confident it's within the realm of doability, and I'd be happy to lend brainpower to solve issues (I have some programming knowhow)

At any rate, just some ideas. This kind of thing is exciting!
 

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