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Tangrowth (Update)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by bugmaniacbob, May 27, 2009.

  1. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    2,295
    Initial Changes:
    • Rewrote all analyses to reflect UU tiering
    • Fiddled with EVs, since Relaxed Swampert is no longer a concern
    • Added Team Options section, and a paragraph on all sets
    • Moved OU mentions in OO, EV and Counters sections to the back and added UU mentions in the front
    • Paraphrased Opinion with UU mentions.
    • Removed all instances of the word 'utilise'
    • Removed 'Mojonbo' set names. Bloody Netbattle.
    Stamps:

    [​IMG](jc104)


    [​IMG][​IMG]
    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/tangrowth

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    [Overview]

    <h4>UU</h4>

    <p>Tangrowth is undisputedly a great Pokemon in UU; he has high HP, good overall defensive stats, and useful offensive stats on both sides. On top of that, Tangrowth is one of the few Pokemon who get STAB on Power Whip. He has Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Knock Off, and a great physical and special movepool as well. However, Tangrowth is in an unfortunate position in UU, where his best counters are also the top Pokémon in the tier; Venusaur and Blaziken, among others, can beat him easily one-on-one. The threat from special sweepers in UU is, in general, much greater than that from physical sweepers, and the physical sweepers who are still considered threats can often beat Tangrowth anyway.</p>

    <p>Don't let this make you feel that Tangrowth is any the worse for wear, though. Tangrowth can still function as a bulky Grass-type and be an annoyance to the opponent thanks to Knock Off, Stun Spore, and Sleep Powder. All the Pokemon listed above hate having these moves used against them. Stealth Rock support makes Tangrowth even better on the field, as many of Tangrowth's counters hate having 25% of their HP chipped off. Tangrowth's potential is such that he can stand his ground with Power Whip and his support moves alone. He is one of the best Rhyperior checks in the game, and one of the only Pokemon in UU who can call a halt to Swords Dance Kabutops in the rain.</p>

    <h4>OU</h4>

    <p>When one considers Tangrowth for use in Standard play, what usually springs to mind is that it is thoroughly overshadowed as a bulky Grass-type by Celebi, and to a lesser extent Shaymin. The former has access to reliable recovery and a Fighting-type resistance, and the latter is a more potent special attacker. Both also have higher Special Defense and Speed, as well as a fantastic ability in the form of Natural Cure.</p>

    <p>However, Tangrowth does have some advantages over his legendary rivals. Although his Special Defense is subpar compared to the other two, he boasts a higher Defense stat. This, together with his high HP, means that he is physically bulkier than Skarmory and Forretress. He also has a higher Special Attack stat and a decent special movepool. While his Attack stat is the same as his rivals, he has access to high-powered physical moves like Power Whip and Earthquake that the others only wish they had. To round things off, he doesn't have Celebi's Pursuit weakness, so he fares much better against Tyranitar. Tangrowth certainly pulls his weight in the Standard metagame, provided that you play him to his strengths.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Standard
    move 1: Power Whip / Leaf Storm
    move 2: Synthesis
    move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Sleep Powder
    move 4: Earthquake / Sleep Powder
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Relaxed
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Tangrowth is sometimes considered to be overshadowed by other walls and other Grass-types with whom he competes for a spot on a team. However, he has a fantastic support movepool backed up by reliable defensive stats; his overall physical defense is greater than that of Skarmory or Hippowdon; and he has plenty of attacking power on both sides. This set best demonstrates his formidable walling potential alongside the individual moves that support his claim to fame.</p>

    <p>Power Whip provides fairly reliable STAB, having 120 Base Power and no negative side effects besides imperfect accuracy. On the special side, his most notable STAB is Leaf Storm, which has the perks of better accuracy and destructive power; however, this does mean that his Special Attack is cut massively after just one use, and Tangrowth is rendered easy setup fodder. Tangrowth also has access to healing moves; Synthesis grants instant 50% recovery and is useful in UU where all the fully-evolved auto weather changers are absent. As for complementary moves, Hidden Power Ice can hit Leafeon, Venusaur, Scyther, Swellow, and Altaria for decent damage, while on the physical side, Earthquake is usually the best choice for a coverage move, as it can hit opponents such as Drapion, Registeel, and Houndoom for super effective damage. Sleep Powder is a very valuable tool as it cripples one Pokemon on the opposing team, and Tangrowth is one of the most reliable sleep inducers in UU.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>When choosing Tangrowth's offensive moves, you should carefully consider which move suits you and your team the best. Power Whip is Tangrowth's most reliable attack, and does reasonable damage to even neutral targets. Leaf Storm, however, has a number of advantages. It allows Tangrowth to function offensively even when burned, and works off his higher offensive stat. It is also guaranteed to OHKO 4 HP Absol with Stealth Rock damage, whereas Power Whip only musters around 78% on average. It also OHKOes 252 HP Slowbro while Power Whip may fail to 2HKO, but on the other hand Power Whip has the ability to 2HKO standard Milotic, which Leaf Storm cannot accomplish. In the last two slots, you should choose a combination of the three moves listed. Sleep Powder has immense utility for Tangrowth and provides a way to cripple Tangrowth's counters, but if you already have a sleep inducer on your team, then Tangrowth can forgo it for extra coverage. For his other moves, Earthquake can hit opponents such as Blaziken, Toxicroak and Drapion switching in, while Hidden Power Ice lets Tangrowth take on more dangerous Pokemon such as Venusaur and Altaria. In general, if Tangrowth only uses one coverage attack, Hidden Power Ice is more useful, as it allows him to fully counter Leafeon and other purely physical Grass-types, but you should pick depending on what suits your team best. If Tangrowth is running a mixed set, a Relaxed nature should be used. If you are using a fully physical set, use an Impish nature, and with a special set, run a Bold nature. If you want to use a support move on Tangrowth but already have a sleep-inducer, Tangrowth has a number of other good options, most notably Knock Off, Stun Spore, and Leech Seed.</p>

    <p>The EVs are straightforward, as they maximise Tangrowth's physical defense. With the given EV spread, Tangrowth reaches 404 HP and 383 Defense, ensuring that +1 Adamant Life Orb Feraligatr, +2 Adamant Leftovers Feraligatr, and Adamant Choice Band Azumarill will never 2HKO with Ice Punch. It also ensures that Adamant Choice Band Kabutops fails to 2HKO with Stone Edge, Adamant Rock Polish Leftovers Rhyperior almost always fails to 2HKO with Megahorn, and Adamant Choice Scarf Hitmonlee has only a small chance to 3HKO with Close Combat. Tangrowth can deal a significant amount back to all of these Pokemon with STAB Power Whip, or cripple them with Sleep Powder.</p>

    <p>Being a pure Grass-type, he is certainly not short of weaknesses to exploit, and most special STAB attacks can deal massive damage due to Tangrowth's low Special Defense. While this Tangrowth is not a sweeper, he is certainly aided greatly by Stealth Rock, which hits four out of the five types that give him trouble (Bug, Fire, Flying, and Ice) for increased damage. In particular, Moltres, Swellow, and Scyther will find it hard to switch in repeatedly. Water- and Rock-types partner well with Tangrowth as they resist a fair number of his weaknesses; Rock-types such as Regirock get special mention for hitting four fifths of the types that Tangrowth is weak to for super effective damage and benefiting from Tangrowth's resistances to Water, Grass, and Ground attacks. Poison-types such as Drapion and Toxicroak are more troublesome; Uxie can deal with Toxicroak but falls to Drapion, while the inverse is true for Steel-types such as Steelix.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Double Powder
    move 1: Sleep Powder
    move 2: Stun Spore
    move 3: Power Whip / Leaf Storm
    move 4: Earthquake / Hidden Power Ice
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Impish / Bold
    evs: 172 HP / 120 Atk / 216 Def

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Double Powder is another interesting way in which Tangrowth can cripple his counters, this time with both sleep and paralysis. The way this set should be used is essentially the same as the Standard Wall: come in on someone who fears Tangrowth, such as Choice Scarf Hitmonlee or Choice Band Azumarill locked into Waterfall, then use Sleep Powder on the opponent's Pokemon, and subsequently use Stun Spore on the switch-in. Hopefully, you will catch someone like Swellow off-guard and effectively neuter two Pokemon.</p>

    <p>The core difference between this set and the Standard set is the more offensive orientation of this set; while the Standard wall takes hits and deals them back, Double Powder is more aggressively played, with his primary objective being to cripple foes, and after that, to take hits. Because of this, it is generally preferable to forgo a healing move to provide better coverage. Earthquake hits Fire-, Steel-, and Poison-types who may pose Tangrowth problems, while Hidden Power Ice hits Flying-, Dragon-, and other Grass-types. It is best to choose between these two based on his STAB move of choice: Power Whip provides consistent power, while Leaf Storm has better accuracy and comes off Tangrowth's better attacking stat.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Since Leaf Storm and Hidden Power are special but Power Whip and Earthquake are physical, it is best to choose one of these pairs to conserve EVs and to avoid forcing Tangrowth to run a Relaxed nature. The EVs are altered from the standard set in keeping with the offensive nature of this set. In particular, 120 EVs are moved to Attack to allow Tangrowth to OHKO frailer sweepers such as Hitmonlee, Alakazam, and Mismagius with Power Whip. It also helps against bulky Water-types, letting him 2HKO all Milotic, Slowbro, and Blastoise, as well as OHKO specially bulky Lanturn and Milotic. In addition, Tangrowth can 2HKO Chansey with Power Whip, and OHKO weakened Blaziken and Toxicroak with Earthquake. If you are running a fully special set, shift the Attack EVs to Special Attack and use a Bold nature to power up Leaf Storm. If you want to run a mixed set, use a Relaxed nature and put Tangrowth's offensive EVs in the same stat as his Grass-type STAB.</p>

    <p>Tangrowth will enjoy all the benefits of Stealth Rock on his counters, but his ability to wall physical threats suffers slightly from the lack of a healing move. The point of this set is to cripple Tangrowth's counters, so teammates who that work well alongside this set. These include Pokemon like Venusaur and Hitmonlee, who can hopefully pull off a sweep with Moltres out of the match.</p>

    <p>Pokemon who are indifferent to this method of support are unfazed by this set, and so slower and bulkier Pokémon who switch into Stun Spore will be very troublesome. This set's biggest foes are Natural Cure Pokémon, who can simply switch out to rid themselves of sleep or paralysis. Altaria has great resistances to both Power Whip and Earthquake, and can destroy Tangrowth with Fire Blast. If you are not using Hidden Power Ice, then you will need to find a way to be rid of the cloudy menace. Milotic is usually the best answer to special or mixed Altaria as it can Recover off damage, remove Dragon Dances with Haze, and attack back with Ice Beam. Registeel is also a reasonable answer to most forms of Altaria. If you do use Registeel, however, this can leave you with a large weakness to Fire-type moves, so a Pokemon like Flash Fire Arcanine or Milotic can be a good asset.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Specially Defensive
    move 1: Power Whip / Leaf Storm
    move 2: Earthquake / Hidden Power Ice
    move 3: Sleep Powder
    move 4: Synthesis
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Careful / Calm
    ability: Chlorophyll
    evs: 136 HP / 120 Atk / 252 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Tangrowth is often looked down upon for his miserable base 50 Special Defense stat, which ordinarily makes him extraordinarily weak to special attacks of all descriptions. Therefore, attempting to make use of this stat would seem pointless; however, by investing heavily on the special side, Tangrowth can use his resistances and improved defensive capabilities to decent effect, while relying on his immense physical Defense stat, which is formidable even without investment. However, it should be noted that by running this spread, Tangrowth loses the ability to beat extremely strong physical attackers such as Rhyperior and Swords Dance Feraligatr.</p>

    <p>Once again, Sleep Powder, Stun Spore and Synthesis are all good support options. Sleep Powder is usually the best option, but if you prefer repeated status or already have a sleep inducer on your team, Stun Spore is worth a look. Leech Seed is also an option if you prefer that method of support. Again, you have to make a serious decision with regard to offensive moves. Power Whip accomplishes the most out of Tangrowth's STAB options, but its comparatively low accuracy can be a turn-off. Leaf Storm is again an option, but it has a number of faults that can make it a worse option. Not only do you only get one shot with it, which is bad especially on a Tangrowth such as this, which relies a great deal on firepower, but Leaf Storm Tangrowth cannot specially defensive Milotic, who is one of the main targets for this set. After one Leaf Storm, Milotic can heal itself with Recover and leave Tangrowth looking useless. Leaf Storm does, however, have the helpful ability to OHKO Slowbro with 120 EVs in Special Attack. Again, Hidden Power Ice and Earthquake are your coverage options; it is usually best to choose the option that works off the same stat as your STAB option to avoid splitting EVs.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Tangrowth's Special Defense stat is maximized first because it is much lower than Tangrowth's HP stat, meaning a full investment in Special Defense has greater returns. Tangrowth won't be 2HKOed by bulky Water-types with Ice Beam. It also means that Tangrowth can now survive Timid Mismagius's Nasty Plot boosted Shadow Ball even with Stealth Rock, and the same rings true for Choice Specs Alakazam's Psychic. The Attack EVs allow Tangrowth to 2HKO Slowbro and Milotic and OHKO Mismagius and Alakazam with Power Whip after Stealth Rock. The leftover EVs are placed in HP. If you would like, you can run 252 HP / 252 SpD in order to maximize hit-taking ability, but this compromises his ability to hit back, making him lose a big advantage over the similar Venusaur. If you decide to run all special attacks, move the offensive EVs to Special Attack and run a Calm nature, and with a mixed set you should run a Sassy nature. With a mixed set, it is advisable that you invest the entirety of your offensive EVs in the same stat as your Grass-type STAB, since the EVs are needed to gain the KOs listed above.</p>

    <p>Although Tangrowth's ability to take hits on the special side is improved, he still can't deal with a powerful super effective STAB attack, especially from the special side. Hence, Moltres, Blaziken, Houndoom, specially inclined Venusaur and Nidoking, and Weezing all remain problems. To counter the large Fire-type weakness, Milotic or another bulky Water-type is a must, however Milotic is preferable mainly because she can reinforce the special side. Registeel can go along to create a powerful defensive core, and it can also deal with various problem Pokemon such as Scyther, Swellow, and Venusaur. Nidoking and Toxicroak remain troublesome; however, Toxicroak loses if he lacks a Poison STAB, and Tangrowth has Earthquake. Milotic can also switch into some Nidoking variants if need be. The combination of Milotic and Registeel should also be enough to beat most Altaria, though be careful with the Rest Talk set, as the combination may struggle if Milotic does not have Ice Beam.</p>

    <p>As this Tangrowth is more offensive than the standard variant, it can be of good use on bulky offense teams as well as on stall teams. Here your partners should be somewhat different: Bulky Drapion can be helpful as a reasonable switch into Toxicroak and special Venusaur (whom Tangrowth will have the most trouble with). With heavy defensive investment, Drapion can act as a check to most Scyther and Swellow. Not only that, but he also helps to absorb Toxic Spikes, a serious threat to Tangrowth's effectiveness. Arcanine can be useful along with Milotic to complete a Fire/Water/Grass core; specifically, he helps to deal with Grass-types, such as Venusaur and Sceptile, as well as Weezing. Intimidate is also useful to hold down physical attackers who can beat Tangrowth, such as Scyther.</p>

    <p>As previously mentioned, giving Tangrowth Special Defense instead of Defense EVs sacrifices the ability to defeat certain foes, such as Adamant Rhyperior, who OHKOes this set with Megahorn + Entry Hazards. Again, Milotic should be helpful here to OHKO with Surf if Tangrowth is too weak to stop him. Leafeon, too, can be a problem with Swords Dance boosted Double-Edge, but Arcanine can neutralize this threat. More powerful Water-types such as Swords Dance Kabutops and Feraligatr also become problematic, although the combination of Tangrowth and your Water-type should cover them for the most part.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Power Whip
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Rock Slide
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    ability: Chlorophyll
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>A combination of a respectable Attack stat, access to Swords Dance and Power Whip, and Chlorophyll allow Tangrowth to pull off a Swords Dance set with reasonable success. The core principle of the set is to come in on an ineffective physical attacker, use Swords Dance, and proceed to knock holes in anyone Tangrowth can hit. Sceptile has higher Speed, which is useful for this type of set, but Tangrowth has a higher Attack stat and the killer variable, Chlorophyll, which with sun support allows him to plough through teams with Power Whip and Earthquake.</p>

    <p>Power Whip is Tangrowth's main source of damage and his best STAB move. Earthquake provides the standard coverage move, getting important hits on Poison-, Fire-, and Steel-types. Rock Slide completes Tangrowth's pseudo-QuakeEdge coverage, allowing him to hit Flying-types like Scyther and Moltres. Status moves such as Stun Spore and Sleep Powder are also usable; Stun Spore in particular is important if you want to use this effectively without sun support.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>An Adamant nature and 252 Speed EVs allows Tangrowth to outrun neutral Scarf Blaziken in the sun, and with a Jolly nature and max Speed EVs this is extended to Adamant Scarf Primeape and other base 95 Pokemon. Life Orb should be used in the sun, since the added power is worth the loss in bulk, while non-sun variants should hold Leftovers, since they appreciate the bulk a lot more. If you do not wish to use Chlorophyll, the advised spread is 240 HP / 232 Atk / 36 Spe to increase hit-taking ability, and to give Tangrowth a chance to hit adversaries with Stun Spore, which is pretty much a mandatory move on non-Chlorophyll variants.</p>

    <p>Bulky Grass-type Pokemon like Hidden Power Ice Tangrowth can wall this set since the most effective attack it can use against them is a weak Rock Slide. Sludge Bomb Weezing works in much the same way. Arcanine can use Intimidate to buffer his teammates from Tangrowth's hits, but will be in trouble if Tangrowth keeps using Swords Dance. This set is also far easier to wall if you don't give him sun support; he is then pretty much forced to run Stun Spore meaning he loses coverage and adds Bug-, Grass-, and Flying-types as solid counters or revenge killers. Rhyperior can be a great help as he can wall Pokémon like Swellow, while Tangrowth can switch in on Earthquakes aimed at Rhyperior and set up.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Mixed Sweeper
    move 1: Power Whip
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Hidden Power Fire
    move 4: Rock Slide / Sleep Powder
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Naive
    ability: Chlorophyll
    ivs: 29 HP
    evs: 200 Atk / 76 SpA / 232 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With proper support, Tangrowth can make a fearsome mixed sweeper in UU, with powerful STAB and coverage options backed up by solid base 100 Attack and 110 Special Attack. Tangrowth should be paired with sun support to activate his Chlorophyll ability, allowing him to outrun everyone up to and including Modest Scarf Rotom. It also boosts the power of Hidden Power Fire, but it is advised that Tangrowth should not run Sunny Day himself in the interest of type coverage.</p>

    <p>Power Whip is chosen as the preferred STAB move, since it hits nearly everyone of significance harder than Grass Knot, with a few small exceptions such as Cloyster and Slowbro, who are 2HKOed by Power Whip anyway. If you're prepared to take a little risk for the best of both worlds, SolarBeam is always an option, since it has Power Whip's Base Power combined with Grass Knot's accuracy and comes off Tangrowth's higher Special Attack stat. SolarBeam also OHKOes Milotic after Stealth Rock damage. It is also blessed by the absence of the fully evolved instant-weather Pokémon in UU, so the chance of the sun being banished and Tangrowth being locked into a weakened SolarBeam is low. Using SolarBeam or Grass Knot over Power Whip, however, will make Chansey far more of an issue. In the way of coverage, Hidden Power Fire gets a boost from the sun and hits Grass-, Bug- and Steel-types, while Earthquake gets super effective coverage on Fire-, Poison- and Steel-types. Thus five of the seven types resistant to Grass are covered; the final two being Dragon and Flying. The only common UU Dragon-type is Altaria, who is also part Flying. To deal with these Flying-types, the best choice is really Rock Slide, which will also hit Fire- and Bug-types for super effective damage, however it will fail to OHKO a min/min Altaria even after Stealth Rock damage.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Lastly, Sleep Powder is always an option to cripple a troublesome foe. A 29 HP IV is given to minimize Life Orb recoil. The EVs and nature grant sufficient Speed to outrun Modest Scarf Rotom and Adamant Rock Polish Torterra after a boost, factoring in the Speed drop from Hidden Power Fire. The remaining EVs are split as necessary between the two attacking stats.</p>

    <p>Sun support is required with this set. Most of the standard rain leads, including Ambipom and Uxie, can perform the same trick with Sunny Day. Regirock has great offensive and defensive synergy with Tangrowth and other sun sweepers, as it resists Fire- and Flying-type attacks and can Explode on troublesome bulky Pokemon. As with any sweeper, Stealth Rock is critical support, but it is especially useful to ensure that Tangrowth can OHKO Fire- and Flying-types with his coverage attacks lest they survive and OHKO him in return. Thus, a Ghost-type such as Mismagius is recommended to block Rapid Spin. Also, heavily defensive Pokémon such as Uxie can come in, survive a hit and use Psychic or U-turn for a large amount of damage, while Tangrowth can do nothing significant back. In this situation Houndoom can be a good partner, absorbing Psychic attacks and benefiting from the sun himself.</p>

    [SET]
    name: OU Physical Tank
    move 1: Sleep Powder
    move 2: Power Whip / Grass Knot
    move 3: Earthquake / Hidden Power Ice
    move 4: Knock Off / Stun Spore
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Tangrowth is a decent physical wall and supporter who brings a good deal of advantages to the table. Tangrowth can take on powerful physical attackers such as Tyranitar and Gyarados with his immense Defense stat, and act as a buffer against other physical threats. Tangrowth has some excellent weapons in his arsenal that his legendary rivals Celebi and Shaymin do not, and the bulk of this set is built around these. Sleep Powder incapacitates one Pokemon on your opponent's team, and can be followed up by Stun Spore or Knock Off on the switch-in, allowing Tangrowth to neuter two threats to your team in two turns. Power Whip and Earthquake form Tangrowth's best offensive combination, but he can also go special if you like, though bear in mind that Celebi and Shaymin are both more reliable as special attackers than Tangrowth.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>If Knock Off and Stun Spore do not appeal to you, then Leech Seed can also be a viable alternative for the last moveslot. It is useful to restore some health each turn, especially if you manage to get one of Tangrowth's counters as it switches in, but the amount of health restored is usually very low. This can, however, be of use on a team that takes advantage of residual damage.</p>

    <p>Although Tangrowth's Special Attack is higher than his Attack, he gets a lot of useful physical moves, such as STAB Power Whip, which can easily 2HKO Tyranitar, Gyarados, and Flygon. Tangrowth also gets Earthquake, which can help with Metagross, and even Heatran if you can catch them on the switch. However, going special is always an option, with Grass Knot available for a STAB move and Hidden Power for coverage. Hidden Power Ice and Hidden Power Fire can OHKO Dragonite and Scizor, respectively, with Stealth Rock support.</p>

    <p>Max HP and Defense with Leftovers and an Impish nature are used to maximize defensive ability. Jolly Choice Scarf Tyranitar cannot 3HKO Tangrowth with Stone Edge, and Jolly Choice Scarf Flygon cannot 3HKO with Outrage. It also means that Adamant Life Orb Gyarados fails to 2HKO with Ice Fang after a Dragon Dance, although Bounce is still an OHKO with Stealth Rock. In return, Tangrowth can 2HKO all of the above with Power Whip. He also has a high chance to survive Adamant Life Orb Lucario's Close Combat after a Swords Dance, even if he switches into Stealth Rock, which allows Tangrowth to OHKO with Earthquake after Close Combat's Defense drop. In addition, Adamant Choice Band Metagross cannot 2HKO with Meteor Mash. Shifting 28 EVs to Speed will let Tangrowth outpace Relaxed Swampert. If you want to go mixed, a Relaxed nature is advised. Also, if you are running a fully special Tangrowth, remember to move the given Attack EVs to Special Attack, and run a Bold nature rather than an Impish nature.</p>

    [Team Options]

    <h4>UU</h4>

    <p>Even when not running an offensive set, Tangrowth likes having Stealth Rock on the opponent's side of the field, as many of his counters are weak to it and will find themselves losing a fair amount of HP if they try to switch in repeatedly. As such, a spinblocker such as Mismagius is advisable to make sure the rocks stay put. On offensive sets this is a particularly important issue, as Tangrowth will want the extra damage on Fire- and Flying-types to ensure OHKOes with his coverage moves. This is especially the case for the Mixed Sweeper, who is unable to boost his stats. Tangrowth will also generally benefit from the sun on all of his sets, since Leaf Guard on the defensive sets makes it harder for the opponent to remove Tangrowth as they cannot simply Toxic him. Running Sunny Day solely for a defensive Tangrowth isn't recommended, though, as the payoff is quite situational.</p>

    <p>As a primarily defensive Pokémon, Tangrowth should ensure that he has partners to fall back on whenever he needs them, which will be often as his Special Defense is not spectacular. Rock-types such as Regirock make great partners to Tangrowth, as they resist Fire and Flying attacks, which will be Tangrowth's great bugbears in battle, and benefit from Tangrowth's resistances to Water-, Grass- and Ground-type attacks. Rhyperior has the benefit of also resisting Poison but adds an Ice weakness. Rock-types tend not to be specially defensive either, however, which is why someone who can take special attacks is also advised. Milotic, Registeel and Chansey are all quite good choices on non-offensive teams; Milotic has good resistances to Fire and Ice, and Registeel to Bug, Flying, Poison, and Ice. However, all three are set-up fodder for Toxicroak, so Claydol would also be worth consideration.</p>

    <p>As far as defensive partners are concerned, Tangrowth will needs support against those Pokemon who threaten him on the physical side with super effective STAB moves. Milotic can be immensely helpful, as she resists two of Tangrowth's weaknesses and is a good check to many threats to Tangrowth, including Swellow, Scyther, Arcanine, and Altaria. She is also a good secondary check to Rhyperior and Feraligatr. Registeel, resists four of Tangrowth's five weaknesses, and helps with a number of Tangrowth's foes, including Swellow, Scyther, and special Venusaur. Drapion is also worth noting here, as he can check a number of the aforementioned threats with his impressive Defense and absorb Toxic Spikes, which are a serious threat to Tangrowth. Lastly, Arcanine can take Fire-, Bug- and Ice-type attacks aimed at Tangrowth and has Intimidate to weaken physical threats, while Tangrowth in turn resists Arcanine's Ground- and Water-type weaknesses.</p>

    <p>Tangrowth boasts remarkable coverage on his offensive sets and has strong base stats to back his moves up; however, bulkier foes will almost always be able to survive even super effective attacks and hit back. Uxie, Spiritomb and other decent tanks are the main Pokémon who can survive a hit from the Mixed Sweeper's Power Whip under the sun, retaining a decent amount of health, and do a significant amount of damage or cripple him before he can 2HKO. Other methods of dealing with sweeper Tangrowth include fast Pokémon with special Fire or Ice attacks, and so a strong Fire-type such as Arcanine who can force out Grass-, Bug- and Ice-type Pokémon and Intimidate threats can be useful. Wall breakers who enjoy sun support, such as Blaziken, can come in on Spiritomb's Will-O-Wisp and wreak havoc with boosted Fire Blasts, and sweepers such as Rhyperior can come in on a resisted attack and set up; Rhyperior also benefits from weakened Water-type moves in the sun, though bear in mind that Milotic's Surf will still OHKO.</p>

    <h4>OU</h4>

    <p>Wish support from Vaporeon or Blissey can be useful as Tangrowth does not have reliable recovery of his own. Both of them also have considerable synergy with Tangrowth. Blissey can patch up Tangrowth's poor Special Defense thanks to its titanic Special Defense and HP, and use Aromatherapy if need be. Vaporeon and other bulky Water-types such as Suicune also make good partners, as they cover Tangrowth's Fire- and Ice-type weaknesses, while Tangrowth can cover their Electric- and Grass-type weaknesses. Rotom-A and Zapdos are also both notable for their ability to ward off Scizor and also, in the case of Rotom-A, to block Rapid Spin. In addition, they both benefit from Tangrowth's ability to come in on and beat Tyranitar.</p>

    <p>The acclaimed "CeleTran" combination can also work very well with Tangrowth in place of Celebi. Heatran covers all of Tangrowth's weaknesses, and can beat most of Tangrowth's best counters, including Scizor. In return, Tangrowth covers all of Heatran's weaknesses except for Fighting-type moves, and can stop Pokemon such as Gyarados whom Heatran cannot handle. Although Celebi would seem a more viable partner as it resists Fighting, Tangrowth does have the benefit of being able to take on Tyranitar, who is a big problem for both Celebi and Heatran with its unresisted STAB Rock-type attacks.</p>

    <p>Although bulkier teams will prefer teammates for Tangrowth who can deal with his counters, such as the ones listed above, on more offensive teams, it can be beneficial to include sweepers that have the same counters as Tangrowth, given Tangrowth's ability to disable his counters upon switching in. Tangrowth has a tendency to draw out Pokemon such as Heatran, Dragonite, and Scizor, and if any of them are crippled, it can be a very good thing for some Pokemon. Heracross, for example, is less likely to be revenge killed by a sleeping Scizor, and can hence bypass both of them. Another positive is that Tangrowth can deal with Gyarados, another big threat to Heracross. Other sweepers such as Swords Dance Lucario and Scizor also value this support for the same reasons.</p>

    <p>Tangrowth is in the unfortunate position whereby all of his counters reside at the very top of OU play, and are hence used often in conjunction with one another. Scizor, Dragonite, and Heatran are all very often used alongside one another, and hence Tangrowth will often find that the opponent has a number of answers to him. Tyranitar and Gyarados are both often used alongside the former three, but Tangrowth can usually deal with them adequately. As mentioned above, Rotom-A and Zapdos can deal with Scizor and can also act as secondary checks to Gyarados, but may find themselves struggling against Dragonite and Heatran. These two are difficult to counter, but a bulky Water-type should be able to deal with both; Starmie or Vaporeon can use Surf on Heatran and ward off Dragonite with Ice Beam. If you can lure in and destroy Dragonite or Heatran by using Hidden Power Ice or Earthquake on Tangrowth, the benefits for your team can be very great indeed.</p>

    [Optional Changes]

    <h4>UU</h4>

    <p>First and foremost, you should use sets that differentiate Tangrowth's from his fellow Grass-types. He is certainly not short of other support options, but often other Pokemon can make better use of them. Block is an interesting move that could be used alongside Sleep Powder and Leech Seed. With Block you can create an "annoyer" out of Tangrowth. The problem is that Tangrowth is left with only one move. Knock Off, despite being available from the move tutor, is still a fairly exclusive toy and Tangrowth can use it to great effect, removing items and possibly simultaneously telling you what variant of Pokémon you are facing. Tangrowth can use the popular SubSeed strategy, which is especially useful since Tangrowth can reach the magic 404 HP stat, meaning his Substitutes cannot be broken with Seismic Toss; however, Sceptile and Jumpluff are both faster, and thus can perform the strategy more easily. Toxic works on the Standard set and is an option over Stun Spore on the Double Powder set. Reflect is an excellent support move for Tangrowth to aid his pals; it's just a pity that Tangrowth doesn't get Light Screen to help out with his dismal Special Defense stat. The only physical move of note not listed in the rest of the analysis is Poison Jab, which is Tangrowth's most powerful physical move against Leafeon and other pure Grass-types, but has mediocre coverage after that. Sludge Bomb follows the same logic as Poison Jab; however, it works off of Tangrowth's higher Special Attack stat instead (and with a higher Base Power as well).</p>

    <p>Tangrowth is generally a defensive Pokémon and should be EVed as such. It is advised that you max out his HP before you work on his defensive stats. 252 Def is advised in UU play as it is essential to surviving boosted hits from key opponents, such as Dragon Dance Feraligatr, but you can branch out into Attack if you feel like the extra power would help. Offensively orientated sets should concentrate on the attacking stat they're using. If you're using Chlorophyll with Sunny Day, 240 speed with Adamant or Modest nature, factoring in the IV drop from Hidden Power Fire, allows Tangrowth to beat neutral Scarf Blaziken, but maximizing Speed is usually the best choice at that point. 228 EVs with a Timid, Jolly or Naive nature beats Modest Scarf Rotom; 232 EVs with a positive nature beats Adamant Rock Polish Torterra after a boost; and max Speed with a positive nature beats Adamant Scarf Primeape and ties with other Tangrowth. Without Chlorophyll, there is very little you can outspeed and you are best off going on the defensive. 29 HP EVs can be uesd on offensive sets with Life Orb to minimize recoil.</p>

    <h4>OU</h4>

    <p>As mentioned previously, Tangrowth has a vast support movepool itching to be used. Tangrowth can run a Substitute + Leech Seed set, which can be effective as Tangrowth can create 101 HP Substitutes, meaning they cannot be broken by Seismic Toss. Tangrowth can also run Sleep Powder on such a set. However, Shaymin can perform the same trick with better Speed, Special Defense and the same 404 HP stat. Tangrowth can also use Reflect (but not Light Screen) for more support.</p>

    <p>Tangrowth has a number of options for recovery as well. Synthesis can be used, but this is not viable with the prevalence of Tyranitar in Standard coupled with the low PP. Rest + Sleep Talk gives Tangrowth semi-reliable recovery, but uses up half of his available moveslots and leaves him almost a sitting duck for two turns. Lastly, Tangrowth has an interesting option in the form of Pain Split, which divides the HP of Tangrowth and his opponent and shares them equally. Although this may allow Tangrowth to stay alive longer, Tangrowth has such a titanic HP stat that more often than not he will not gain all that much HP for himself, and in some cases may even lose HP to the opponent. Tangrowth also possesses a number of setup moves such as Swords Dance and Sunny Day, which work in tandem with Chlorophyll to turn Tangrowth into a strong sweeper that is a staple on Sunny Day teams. Aside from that, however, Tangrowth isn't doing much sweeping in OU.</p>

    <p>Tangrowth has a massive special movepool that can be called upon at times. Leaf Storm is an extremely powerful STAB attack that can maul almost everything it comes into contact with, but constitutes a free switch for Scizor or Dragonite, as Tangrowth is helpless after using it once. As for other STAB attacks, Energy Ball is more reliable than Grass Knot for consistent damage, but in general the latter deals more damage on average because of how heavy most OU Pokemon are. Giga Drain is also an option to recover a little health after each use, but the low power and low PP mean it is not ideal. Lastly, SolarBeam can be used on Sunny Day teams, but turns him into bait for Tyranitar. Focus Blast is a very powerful yet very unreliable attack that does a great deal of damage to Tyranitar and Heatran. For other physical attacks that Tangrowth can use, Seed Bomb is, like Energy Ball, a more reliable but much less powerful alternative to his primary Grass STAB, while Rock Slide does a good deal of damage to most Flying-types. Finally, Aerial Ace can take out Breloom, but doesn't do much aside from that.</p>

    [Counters]

    <h4>UU</h4>

    <p>At first sight, it would appear that the Standard Tangrowth is quite easy to switch into—his STAB has a total of seven types resistant to it, and his coverage moves are fairly weak against neutral targets. However, that is not the case—it is difficult to switch into Tangrowth, mainly because of his great support movepool. Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, and Knock Off are moves that are very difficult to switch into and can cripple an opponent for the rest of the battle. Not only that, but since many of Tangrowth's counters are weak to Stealth Rock, Pokemon who switch in will likely be forfeiting a good amount of their health.</p>

    <p>As far as typing goes, Moltres, Charizard, and Scyther all have quad resistances to Grass and all destroy Tangrowth with their STAB moves, but they all have quad Stealth Rock weaknesses as well, and so cannot switch in more than twice if the rocks are up. Other Grass-types like Venusaur and Sceptile make good counters; Venusaur gets a special mention for having a quad resistance to Grass, no Stealth Rock weakness, and STAB Sludge Bomb.</p>

    <p>Other counters include Flying-, Fire-, and Poison-types. Of the Flying-types, Altaria has a quad resistance to Grass as well as access to special Fire-type attacks and Natural Cure. Swellow can activate his Toxic Orb, making him immune to sleep and paralysis attempts, and he is not bothered by Knock Off if his Orb has already activated. Drifblim has good defensive stats and can put up a Substitute if need be. Fire- and Poison-types need to beware of Earthquake from sweeper Tangrowth; however, they also make good counters should the need arise. Arcanine has Intimidate to let him come in safely, and can fry Tangrowth with STAB Flare Blitz. Ninetales, Typhlosion, Blaziken, Magmortar, and Houndoom are other notable checks. Of Poison-types, Weezing is immune to Earthquake, has good defensive stats, and can use STAB Sludge Bomb to beat Tangrowth. Nidoking and Nidoqueen have no Grass resistance but have access to moves like Poison Jab and Ice Beam. Toxicroak can set up in Tangrowth's face with Substitute and/or Swords Dance, but must beware of Earthquake or sun-boosted Hidden Power Fire. Muk and Drapion also make reasonably good choices.</p>

    <h4>OU</h4>

    <p>Despite the fact that Tangrowth has five weaknesses, countering him can be difficult because of his wide range of support moves. If Heatran switches in as Tangrowth uses Stun Spore, he will be murdered on the next turn by Earthquake. There are also very few Pokemon who want to switch into Sleep Powder. In general, you will want fast special attackers who can destroy him by exploiting his weak Special Defense, as even strong neutral or resisted attacks will sting him.</p>

    <p>Dragonite is a great check to Tangrowth—he can switch in easily thanks to good defensive stats, a quad Grass-type resistance, and an immunity to Earthquake, only fearing status moves such as Sleep Powder and Stun Spore as well as the rare Hidden Power Ice. He can then set up Dragon Dance or wipe out Tangrowth with Fire Blast or Draco Meteor. Scizor is another potent threat, boasting the same quad Grass-type resistance as Dragonite. STAB U-turn makes Tangrowth cry and, if Tangrowth switches out, Scizor can scout the switch-in and keep momentum going for his user. Like with Dragonite, Tangrowth's only hope of winning is to catch him on the switch with status or a niche Hidden Power (in this case, Fire). Heatran is another Pokemon with a quad Grass-type resistance, but he also has a quad weakness to Earthquake, so if he walks into the wrong move he can still lose. Another common Pokemon with a 4x resistance to Grass and immunity to Earthquake is Skarmory, who can take any move save Hidden Power Fire and Sleep Powder, Roost off the damage, and attack back with Brave Bird or simply use Tangrowth as an opportunity to set up Spikes.</p>

    <p>Other Pokemon with super effective STAB moves or useful resistances, such as Gengar, Infernape, Heracross, and Roserade should all perform excellently as well. Remember that Tangrowth's offense isn't really all that great, so if someone can take hits and attack back, there is very little Tangrowth can do to stop them, especially if Sleep Clause has been activated.</p>


    ---------------------------------------------------------------










    Post-critique changes:
    • Added extra Paragraph in Team Options on general OU support
    • Re-tweaked EVs, added changes in EV section
    • Went through the entire thing removing anglican spellings and paraphrased them to avoid using americanised spellings
    • Added a note on the Swords Dancer about a possible Sunny Dance Mix, thanks to hhjj
    • Removed references to Crobat and Shaymin
    • Removed references to Roserade and Yanmega
    • Removed references to Honchkrow
    • Removed references to OU play
    • Grammar Check 1, thanks to Xia
    • Updated to new format
    • Removed references to Raikou and Froslass
    • Quality Control: Removed Choice Specs, renamed 'Physical Wall' to 'Standard', added HP Ice/LeafStorm as slashes in 'Standard'
    • Added Specially Defensive set
    • GP Grammar Check 1, thanks to jc104
    • Merged with OU Tangrowth analysis
    • GP Grammar Check 2, thanks to whistle
  2. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    I don't like this. Tangrowth does have an OU niche (Gyarados counter), and I don't see why we're removing this simply because it happens to be a UU Pokémon.
  3. joshe

    joshe the best

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    Remember you have to have defense, not defence.
  4. bugmaniacbob

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    I didn't remove the OU mentions, I just highlighted its UU position over them. If you mean in the analyses, I only mentioned Gyarados in the Physical Wall set, which is the general 'niche' set. I'll add an OU general support paragraph in the Team Options section.

    Ah, I forgot that. I'll fix it.

    Interesting set, but I would question the value of Swords Dance without running a full physical set of moves, which is really the point of the Swords Dance set. Also, it doesn't really solve the problem of Altaria or Shaymin any more than the standard Swords Dancer does. And to be quite frank, Moltres couldn't care tuppence about this set. Personally I'd sooner use this set on Sceptile, but I'd like some more opinions on this.
  5. joshe

    joshe the best

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    Also(I hate double posting but no one reads previous posts anymore) it's offense, not offence, and paralyze, not paralyse.

    The first two and the last set's ev listing is not ordered right. It should be:

    HP / Atk / Def / SpA / SpD / Spe,so 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def and 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe.

    Just some little minor nitpicks, otherwise a very nice write up. Good job.
  6. VKCA

    VKCA (Virtual Circus Kareoky Act)

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    Nice write up but this sort of irked me.
    More or less solid? its over all physical defensiveness is greater than skarmory and hippowdon (which might be nice to note). The sentence makes it sounds like his defenses are mediocre, and although his special defense leaves a lot to be desired, he is still a great phisical wall.
  7. yoshi!

    yoshi!

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    In the first set and opinion, take out the reference to "post-Platinum", because I think we're meant to make them as if Platinum changes never happened.

    Also, in the Counter Section, in the first sentence, it'd be better to say
  8. bugmaniacbob

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    Yeah, I was trying to paraphrase there, and it didn't come out quite right. I'll try to correct it.

    Changes duly noted.
  9. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    Okay, I think this is done, unless anyone has anything to add.
  10. bugmaniacbob

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    The idea of the mixed set is, ultimately, to maximise type coverage and to make sure you can hurt most to all pokemon that switch in - Your set sacrifices far too much in the way of coverage to be viable under the sun.
    I'll add a note under the Swords Dancer set with your alternative spread.
  11. twash

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    I was going to upload to the site but quite a lot of this seems to rely on Crobat (EVs etc)..could we get this fixed up please?
  12. bugmaniacbob

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    I've removed everything I could find in relation to Crobat or Shaymin, and edited the EV targets as such. Should I look over it for errors one last time, or do you want to upload it now?
  13. Xia

    Xia aka Lone Gansel
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    Just a quick proofread before it's posted.
  14. Garganator

    Garganator

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    I think that Swords Dance is great addition on Mixed Tangrowth. I'm using it on Sunny Day team with Swords Dance in last slot and it really works. And Tangrowth really appreciates that bonus to attack. I also think that Choice Band set also isn't bad idea with strong STAB attack and Earthquake. I think that's it - otherwise it looks really solid, good job.
  15. bugmaniacbob

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    Hidden Power Ice isn't really needed to deal with those three, since Torterra has no business taking on Tangrowth anyway, and Gligar doesn't usually run Aerial Ace (at least, not to my knowledge). The quote about Altaria not being OHKOed refers to the mixed sweeper - after a Swords Dance Tangrowth easily OHKOs with Rock Slide factoring in Stealth Rock damage.

    Also, I seem to have lost the ability to edit the OP, not sure why; if a moderator sees this, could they please add the bold text into the mixed sweeper set:

  16. hunt

    hunt

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    I hope I'm not out of line in mentioning that Tangrowth is no longer the only competitive battler with STAB Power Whip. Venusaur learns it through breeding in HG/SS.
  17. bugmaniacbob

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    Fixed.

    Also, I should point out that the analysis has been updated with the new analysis format, as well as adding a couple of references to Raikou and removing Honchkrow, etc.

    Anyway, more importantly - after some testing in the new metagame of Raikou and the rise of bulky waters, I'm debating whether to add a specially defensive set to the analysis, but I don't know whether it plays sufficiently differently to all the other sets (as it is geared to take on a vastly different collection of Pokemon) to merit its own set, or just mentions in the set descriptions and Optional Changes. Thoughts?
  18. PK Gaming

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    I'd love to see a specially defensive Tangrowth for varieties sake. Both his HP and high Defenses (uninvested) are bonuses over simply using Venusaur.
  19. Malkyrian

    Malkyrian

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    Oh, definitely. I use one myself and can attest to how deadly it is. The thing was the most useful poke overall on my last team. Note that my last team had Cresselia and Porygon-Z on it.

    I'd be willing to submit the set and EVs, and even write paragraphs on it myself, if that'd be alright with bugmaniacbob.
  20. PK Gaming

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    Yes please.
    I like Venusaur and all but i've been using it in all of my teams. Tangrowth sounds like an interesting pokemon to explore.

    EV's?
  21. Malkyrian

    Malkyrian

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    Ok. Just as notes:

    - The set I personally use has Synthesis/Sleep Powder, and yes Venusaur is a problem but my team can play around it.
    - Much of what's here is personal experience, which is why Scyther is not addressed - I simply haven't faced one.
    - There are supposed to be four paragraphs here, the latter two in Additional Comments, but my third (miscellaneous) is very much a work in progress and my fourth (team support) doesn't even exist yet.
    - Perhaps most importantly, Moltres and special Blaziken can still KO after Amnesia, and this set has trouble with Toxic, so it is important to scout the opposing team and know this set's limits.

    That said, here's what I have so far.

    [SET]
    name: Amnesiagrowth
    move 1: Amnesia
    move 2: Power Whip
    move 3: Synthesis / Leech Seed
    move 4: Sleep Powder / Earthquake / Rock Slide
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Impish
    ability: Chlorophyll
    evs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Tangrowth is often seen as a purely physically defensive Pokemon, so giving it Amnesia can be a huge surprise. The idea with this set is to switch in on a physical attacker Tangrowth can easily handle, and as they switch out to their special sweeper of choice, Amnesia in their face. They are now faced with 404 HP and 312 Special Defense, more than enough to handle most special sweepers, on top of its 363 Defense. To put this into perspective, Uxie's ability to wall special attackers is only slightly more than Tangrowth's after an Amnesia - except Tangrowth has instant recovery while Uxie does not.</p>

    <p>Amnesia is obvious on a set like this, and Power Whip supplies a fairly reliable and very useful STAB attack. Even without any Attack investment, Power Whip's base power of 120 alongside a STAB boost and Tangrowth's base 100 Attack is quite dangerous. The choice of the other two moves, however, is much tougher. A recovery move is a must on this set, but both have their drawbacks. Leech Seed fails against Grass-type opponents and Clefable. Synthesis, on the other hand, is generally reliable but has low PP and fails to keep pressure on things like Altaria that can otherwise wall you but do very little back. The last move is primarily meant to counter expected switch-ins. Sleep Powder is generally very useful, but using it means that Venusaur can easily counter this set. Its 75% accuracy can also lead to a significant miss. Rock Slide helps to beat Moltres and Swellow switch-ins, while Earthquake is primarily for Blaziken but can also help against Toxicroak.</p>
  22. whistle

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    I was going to grammar check this but a few things before I do:

    you've implemented some of the QC changes but not all of them (see http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2607230&postcount=48 for reasoning; see OP @ http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67596 for the summary). HP Ice and Synthesis shouldn't be slashed, while you should also change the natures. I don't think the SDef EVs are very necessary, but if ToF still feels strongly about those he can just post here.

    Brick Break is completely worthless on the SD set... don't slash it -- Optional Changes at best. you also need Rock Slide much more than Return for Moltres and company. I also don't see the point in 16 HP you might as well tie with other Tangrowth.

    this feels a bit wordy... can you try to cut down the unnecessary stuff?
  23. bugmaniacbob

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    There are just a couple of things there that I either disagree with or couldn’t find a reason for in the Quality Control thread. Most of the changes I implemented, but I would prefer a second opinion on some of these points:

    • Hidden Power Ice (slash) – I still think that Earthquake deserves a slash next to it, as I like the ability to hit Drapion and Toxicroak, both of whom always seem to try to set up on Tangrowth for some reason. I can also hit Blaziken on the switch, or after it has been statused, and win stall wars with Registeel lacking Rest. Aside from that, I know that Hidden Power Ice is useful, but the only reason that was given for its being more important than Earthquake was that it was necessary to beat Swords Dance Venusaur, which isn’t really reliable, in my opinion – HP Ice can only 3HKO 4 HP Venusaur, or 4HKO with Leftovers. So, even if it doesn’t have Synthesis, Sleep Powder, or Sludge Bomb, Venusaur can still do a lot of harm before being put away, and even then Earthquake is a pretty good replacement. Hidden Power Ice is undoubtedly one of the best options for Tangrowth, I just don’t think it’s irreplaceable. If there are any irrefutable reasons why HP Ice is so much more important that I have somehow missed, please let me know.
    • 64 SpD EVs – The only reason I could find for these particular EVs in the QC Doc. thread was owing to the need to check Raikou, which isn’t really relevant anymore. A couple of posts later Eo said that 252/252 was probably the better spread now that Raikou was banned, which I would be inclined to agree with. The 64 SpD EVs don’t really help that much with any other special sweepers, or so I find – if anybody can tell me another reason for them, I’d be grateful.
    • Leech Seed / Stun Spore (slash) – personally I think that Sleep Powder is a little too useful to pass up, unless you’re running a paralysis team or have lots of other status on board (I can’t really think of any other viable sleepers that aren’t Grass-types). It should be mentioned in Additional Comments though, so I’ll add that.
    The rest of the stuff you mentioned I probably just missed, and I’ve added it now. I’ll also go through it now and concise it a little.
  24. whistle

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    re: hp ice - there is also leafeon, who resists eq and has much lower spdef than def (which makes hp ice very necessary to beat it especially synthesis variants). drapion and toxicroak are decent reasons to use earthquake although it is a bit dangerous to stay in on them in case they just wanna use a poison attack (especially sludge bomb) against tangrowth.

    i can't really think of any other reasons and i wouldn't flat out reject "hp ice without earthquake". i'm leaning slightly towards not slashing earthquake though, since leafeon is a pretty big deal; drapion and toxicroak aren't things that tangrowth is "supposed" to stop, while leafeon is. but there are four other official QC members for a reason so i'll see what they think too!

    re: 64 sdef - i think you are relatively safe just going with a max hp max defense spread now. it's not like tangrowth was a super great raikou counter anyways.

    i will abstain from commenting on the last moveslot since eo and tof have much more experience than me with tangrowth. i'll just say that all three of those moves are pretty annoying to fight against, stun spore a little less so than the other two but not by too much. (eo suggested perhaps putting eq in this clusterfuck of a slot in the qc doc thread just throwing that out there)

    HEY IF YOU ARE ON QC COMMENT ON THIS
  25. FlareBlitz

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    I think both HP Ice and Earthquake are important and deserve to be on the analysis. You're going to get set up on by things regardless of which one you run, so it comes down to what the team has more issues with; if the teamhas issues with things like Torterra and SD Sceptile/Venusaur/Leafeon, then HP Ice would definitely be better. If the team has more issues with Toxicroak and Drapion, Earthquake would be better. I certainly think HP Ice is the better option, because Earthquake really only matters against Toxicroak (Drapion sucks) unless we assume super prediction skills, but then Toxicroak gives stall enough grief that Earthquake can be a viable option for some teams. Just be sure to mention that HP Ice is the recommended option unless the team has other secondary checks to physical grass types and has trouble with Croak.

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