Team Collaboration (Exciting)

[CLegacyM]

Alright, most of you know me so I am not going to bother listing my credentials as a battler -- it's safe to say that if I am posting this team it is good (at the very least for my style of play).

Keep in mind that not everyone will be able to use this team effectively. I think it requires a high level of play to be good, so, use it at your own risk.

Gengar (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 40 HP/252 Spd/216 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Hypnosis
- Shadow Ball
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Ahhh Gengar -- one of the best leads in the game by far (as evidenced by its usage statistics. I think this is the set that has the best kind of coverage you can get when coupled with Hypnosis (although I have toyed with t-bolt over hyp for the best coverage Gengar can get.

A very offensive starter to say the least, it's great for putting stuff to sleep and then proceeding to wreak havok on the opposing team. Not much that can switch in safely on Gengar as even its counters have a hard time surviving when put to sleep and then Focus Blasted to hell.

It also plays a secondary role as a "revenge killer" and even a defensive role against fighters such as heracross and non-BP Lucario. Great pokemon for people that are good with prediction.

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Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP/148 Def/12 Spd/96 SDef
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
Attack IV of 14
- Grass Knot
- Leech Seed
- Recover
- Thunder Wave
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What is there to be said about Celebi that most people don't already know? It's absolutely wonderful for taking most physical attacks, t-wave is great for crippling other teams and leech seed is always a pain. It's one half of the great defensive pairing that I've been advocating since long before I left. Paired with Heatran it shuts down most threats in the game.

This also acts as a great support pokemon to the rest of the team by passing around leech seed healing and paralyzing fast (or even slow) pokemon to give the rest of my pokemon an advantage.

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Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP/48 Def/208 SDef
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Dragon Pulse
- Lava Plume
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
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What a great pokemon. It walls most special attackers and can even beat Blissey one on one if it comes down to that (stalling ftw). The 30% chance of burn means even stuff like Tyranitar, Gyarados and Garchomp are going to be wary of switching in since if they get burned they're significantly weakened and are unable to perform up to their expectations. Dragon Pulse over Earth Power means that other Heatran wall it, but it gives better coverage against stuff that it is meant to wall in the first place (like Gengar, most Salamence and so on). Meaning that there's a much better chance of winning against Gengar even if you are put to sleep because you don't have to worry about Earth Power missing.

That said, again, this is great when paired with Celebi because it offers such great type coverage defensively. It also allows a measure of support in being able to absorb sleep and throw down the burns.

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Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 236 HP/216 Spd/56 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Surf
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Starmie is there for added coverage with Celebi and Heatran and to also eliminate the ever-present threat of spikes. I know that pursuit is always a factor when taking Starmie onto your team, but Pokemon has always been a game of risks. The team doesn't sink if Starmie dies so it's a risk that you can take for the potential benefits.

Ice beam is here over Thunderbolt for what reason? Celebi is already there to cover watery threats like Gyarados. What else is T-bolt good for anyway? Ice beam allows it to actually act as a way of taking out other threats that are more immediately threatening (like Garchomp as everyone likes to tote). Surf is there for Infernape and co.

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Machamp (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 124 HP/128 Atk/252 Def/4 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dynamicpunch
- Ice Punch
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
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Another sleep absorber! Although that's not really what he's there for. You'll notice that of the first four pokemon, aside from Celebi (arguably), nothing can really handle stuff like Blissey and Snorlax. Admittedly Heatran and Celebi CAN survive against them, they don't really offer any kind of threat and I'm not a stalling kind of guy. Machamp is here to fix that. He takes out stuff like those pesky special walls (sans Cresselia) and also helps deal with other threats like Garchomp, Tyranitar etc.

Don't look at him simply as an offensive pokemon, he's great defensively and does an amazing job of, at the very least, crippling offensive threats that think they can just walk all over the team. With Gengar and Starmie around I've got speed to back up his ability to screw with the other team, too.

Confusion is always great to have jumping around in the other team, so Dynamic Punch is awesome. Ice Punch is there because I'd have to say Cresselia is less common than Gliscor and Gliscor is probably a more common switch in to Machamp.

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Salamence (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP/120 Def/136 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Claw
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake / Brick Break
- Roost
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Ahhh...the star of the team. Most people have forgotten, or at least put to the back burner, Salamence. This is actually a great, great set and works really well because of its bulkyness. It takes out stuff like Lucario and Heracross effectively and with Roost it can really stay in for the long haul.

I've had a hard time deciding whether or not to use Fire Fang or Earthquake -- Fire Fang seems to offer better coverage, but EQ is great for stuff like Tyranitar and Heatran. It's really all your personal preference and what you consider to be more important.

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So, all in all this team has been very successful (one loss) although I won't say what name I've been practicing with it under.

I'd also like to say that I didn't come up with this team on my own. Which is why it is called "team collaboration". The person that I worked on this team with will remain nameless because I don't want people to know the team that he is using anyway! If he wants to take claim for this team he is more than welcome to -- and I will say that the bulky ddmence was his idea.

Hope you guys enjoy this one.

 

[Pulse]

Looks solid, for Salamence it should have 136 Speed to get 270. Personally I'd run Earthquake since Skarmory seem to be rather uncommon and you have plenty of ways to take it down, and Bronzong usually dies before you'd even think of setting up a late game sweep. Fire Fang is really weak anyways... I can't really see much weaknesses. SubChomp looks troublesome, though it usually is for teams lacking Bronzong / Skarmory.

Nice team Curt.

 

[Purple Jesus]

All I see is blah blah blah I complain about luck a lot but then use Lava Plume Heatran and Dynamic Punch Machamp myself then some more blah blah blah. I don't appreciate people that flame others for getting a little luck and not acknowledging the fact that this is "lol pokemon" after all. Anyway onto the team...

On the serious side, what can you say about the team? A defensively sound team that covers the games major threats pretty well. Opposing Gengar's that are used well can give you headaches, but anyone relying on Heatran as a primary special wall obviously will have issues with that. On that same note opposing Deo-E can give you problems, but if they rely on Life Orb and you can outpredict a couple moves you can deal with them. The core of Celebi, Heatran, and a sturdy Water type pokemon compete well with the metagame and there isn't much to say. Weavile's usage has been declining slowly, especially amongst the better players, but he could be a minor problem with Gengar/Starmie/Celebi as Pursuit bait. One other possible problem, again rarely seen, but Swords Dance Heracross could pose a legitimate threat to you. The only real spot I see him getting in relatively safely is on Celebi if hes not throwing out a TWave, and if you don't know if its CB/CS/Life Orb/Swords Dance yet I could see issues if he Swords Dances on the switch to Salamence (because you indicate Salamence as your initial Heracross swap in), then your faced with some problems to work around with Stone Edge/Megahorn/Close Combat staring you down from +1 Jolly Heracross possibly running Expert Belt or Life Orb and choices to make.

I mean, when your finding such nitpicks like I pointed out, like specific SETS of pokemon that give your team trouble, then you know you've built a solid team. No pokemon itself causes you overwhelming difficulty, maybe some certain sets do, but they can all be played around smartly.

 

[darkie]

I successfully used a team mostly similar to this a while ago.

If you're using Salamence as a main switch-in to Heracross and Lucario, I would run 280 Speed just beat them both. This lets you get in an attack on them (and hopefully KOing) before they can move. I also suggest for you to use Earthquake on Salamence, as although you're walled by Skarmory and Bronzong, you can play around that. Heatran poses much more of a threat to this team especially since your own Heatran doesn't have Earth Power.

On Starmie, I like to reach 269 Sp Attack if I'm using Ice Beam to get the OHKO on non-Yache Garchomps. This isn't too much of a problem anymore since the majority of Garchomps use Yache nowadays, but don't expect to always OHKO the CBchomps popularized by husk's team.

 

[CLegacyM]

Looks solid, for Salamence it should have 136 Speed to get 270. Personally I'd run Earthquake since Skarmory seem to be rather uncommon and you have plenty of ways to take it down, and Bronzong usually dies before you'd even think of setting up a late game sweep. Fire Fang is really weak anyways... I can't really see much weaknesses. SubChomp looks troublesome, though it usually is for teams lacking Bronzong / Skarmory.

Nice team Curt.

Thanks, I'll take that into account it seems like a solid idea. I don't really think outspeeding Lucario is as important as outspeeding Heracross.

All I see is blah blah blah I complain about luck a lot but then use Lava Plume Heatran and Dynamic Punch Machamp myself then some more blah blah blah. I don't appreciate people that flame others for getting a little luck and not acknowledging the fact that this is "lol pokemon" after all. Anyway onto the team...

What? I don't know how any of that is relevant.

On the serious side, what can you say about the team? A defensively sound team that covers the games major threats pretty well. Opposing Gengar's that are used well can give you headaches, but anyone relying on Heatran as a primary special wall obviously will have issues with that. On that same note opposing Deo-E can give you problems, but if they rely on Life Orb and you can outpredict a couple moves you can deal with them. The core of Celebi, Heatran, and a sturdy Water type pokemon compete well with the metagame and there isn't much to say. Weavile's usage has been declining slowly, especially amongst the better players, but he could be a minor problem with Gengar/Starmie/Celebi as Pursuit bait. One other possible problem, again rarely seen, but Swords Dance Heracross could pose a legitimate threat to you. The only real spot I see him getting in relatively safely is on Celebi if hes not throwing out a TWave, and if you don't know if its CB/CS/Life Orb/Swords Dance yet I could see issues if he Swords Dances on the switch to Salamence (because you indicate Salamence as your initial Heracross swap in), then your faced with some problems to work around with Stone Edge/Megahorn/Close Combat staring you down from +1 Jolly Heracross possibly running Expert Belt or Life Orb and choices to make.

I mean, when your finding such nitpicks like I pointed out, like specific SETS of pokemon that give your team trouble, then you know you've built a solid team. No pokemon itself causes you overwhelming difficulty, maybe some certain sets do, but they can all be played around smartly.

Yeah, like I said before the team is based around playing well and prediction. But thank you for the acknowledgement of it being a solid team.

If you're using Salamence as a main switch-in to Heracross and Lucario, I would run 280 Speed just beat them both. This lets you get in an attack on them (and hopefully KOing) before they can move. I also suggest for you to use Earthquake on Salamence, as although you're walled by Skarmory and Bronzong, you can play around that. Heatran poses much more of a threat to this team especially since your own Heatran doesn't have Earth Power.

On Starmie, I like to reach 269 Sp Attack if I'm using Ice Beam to get the OHKO on non-Yache Garchomps. This isn't too much of a problem anymore since the majority of Garchomps use Yache nowadays, but don't expect to always OHKO the CBchomps popularized by husk's team.

Yeah, like I said before I'm not really too worried about outspeeding Lucario since I think I'm the only person that runs Stone Edge Lucario, and as I see it the standard attack that would be used is ES anyway and outspeeding it wouldn't change that.

Starmie isn't really used as a Garchomp counter -- it just has ice beam as a "just in case" for many different pokemon like Salamence, Garchomp, Zapdos etc. It's not meant to be a full counter for any of those pokemon. It's also good as a surprise because most people don't expect Ice Beam from Starmie (at least, not that I'm aware of).

 

[Pulse]

Right now you are outsped by Heracross, so I don't really understand what you're talking about. 136 Speed EVs are needed, and you only have 120. So just run 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spe so you actually do outrun Heracross.

 

[CLegacyM]

Right, I already said that was a good idea. Meaning I probably plan on doing that.

 

[Cynthia]

I would run EQ over Fire Fang on Salamence, since Bronzong and Skarmory aren't threatened too much by 65 BP Fire fangs anyway.

You miight want to shift Gengar's EV's to benmore standard. You may be overestimating its bulkiness, it really cannot take hits. I would suggest just running 252 SpAtk and Sash/Life Orb/Wide Lens over Lefties. Your set is functional, but not ideal IMO.

Good team overall, pretty standard stuff.

 

[Pulse]

Right, I already said that was a good idea. Meaning I probably plan on doing that.

Oh sorry, I seem to have misunderstood your initial reply. ^_^ Anyways I can't really see much that would give you problems. Zapdos can be troublesome since it does a great job on Gengar, can probably screw up Heatran, obviously beats Starmie, HP Ice's Salamence, and Macham / Celebi can't hurt it that much. The lack of Stealth Rock simply adds to it's annoyance against this team. Though you probably just play around it; I could see you Thunderwaving it with Celebi and just hitting it hard. Thanks to paralysis, Machamp could also just Ice Punch and it wouldn't be able to Roost Stall. But I'll cut out here because now I'm just rambling.

A very solid, balanced team in the midst of the offensive whirlwind that makes up today's metagame.

 

[darkie]

To be honest, Rapid Spin isn't a necesity on the Starmie you have now. Stealth Rock isn't a huge problem when your only poke weak to it has Roost. Toxic Spikes isn't a problem at all when half your team is immune and the other half has Natural Cure/Rest.

 

[Warthog]

To be honest, Rapid Spin isn't a necesity on the Starmie you have now. Stealth Rock isn't a huge problem when your only poke weak to it has Roost. Toxic Spikes isn't a problem at all when half your team is immune and the other half has Natural Cure/Rest.

good point. So possibly take Starmie out then.

and like I said earlier Brick Break is an option on Salamence because it most things neutrally along side Dragon Claw. But the lack of power killing off Jirachi and Metagross to a lesser extent makes me lean toward EQ.

 

[CLegacyM]

I was thinking about changing Starmie around a bit or taking it out altogether but it seems to work like this right now. It's not just for SR/TS. Spikes in general is a pain to deal with.

I like a lot of the constructive criticism of the team -- I'll try implementing them soon and let you guys know how it worked out.

Any suggestions for replacing starmie if I did do that?

 

[Warthog]

Swampert or Suicune with Rest. Magnezone so you could feel a little more comfortable without Fire Fang.

 

[Earthworm]

This team looks pretty good, there are a couple of changes I would make though.

Firstly a nitpick: Leftovers on Gengar should probably be replaced with Black Sludge in case you ever play someone that takes your item.*

Secondly, Starmie doesn't really fit your team as it is made up mostly of bulky sweepers. I would replace it with Vaporeon with Wish/Protect over Rapid Spin/Recover. You should seriously consider Hidden Power Electric over Ice Beam, but the final decision is up to you obviously and if you feel Ice Beam suits it better then by all means keep it. Replacing Starmie with Vaporeon would also give you another member that can beat Deoxys-S, who your team really doesn't like facing much as it hits every other member for upwards of 50% damage, which you can't really afford to be taking if you want to keep your core members healthy.

You already have a Fire + Dragon move user in Heatran, so Dragon + Ground is probably the way to go on Salamence. Alternatively you could replace Roost but then you will be reliant on Vaporeon (if you replace Starmie) for healing which requires switching, so this is probably not a good idea.

Looks like a solid team overall, and although I am usually not too supportive of Machamp (honestly I would prefer Lucario but recently I have had some success with Machamp) it looks like it fits the team. Good luck laddering

*edit: If you are worried that someone will somehow take your Black Sludge and give it to someone else on your team you can keep Leftovers I suppose!

 

[gorm]

vappy over mence could also give you a better gyara counter since life orb dd bite stone edge waterfall could give you trouble xD

im not sure if anyone's ever run that set though xD;;

i might consider throwing 176~200 speed on machamp to deal with tar/skarm even better (since cbtar could certainly cause problems if it beats machamp, and outspeeding skarm with champ is pretty awesome)

just to add to what people have been sayin, i agree with what pulse was saying, stealth rock would add alot to this team as it always does with any offensive team. speed is certainly a problem so keep twave on celebi, but yeah vappy is great at beating deo E, another big problem so supporting that for sure. removing a spinner means faster roosts are important on mence, so definetely go for the speed ;D

 

[backflip]

Take this with a grain of salt, I guess
A fan of Mence sweeps myself, I like to run Jolly 180 Speed EV's so standard Deo-S can't Ice Beam on my parade after a single Dragon Dance, which happens to me often.

 

[Drybones]

Yes celetran does require a high level of play.

 

[CLegacyM]

For anyone interested -- it seems that EQ or Brick Break are the best choices for Salamence to use, and his speed should be set to 136. I'm making the changes in the main post.

 

[Darkartisan]

You say that it takes a "high level of skill" to use this team? It seems like the team susy made yesterday, or the team johnny made the day before...

 

[darkie]

I think Swampert could be a viable pokemon in Starmie's spot. Swampert gives you a good Heatran counter in addition to laying Stealth Rock for your team, which as mentioned before would be very helpful. Heatran would have otherwise ran through your team (theoretically), but I suppose changing Fire Fang to EQ/Brick Break would alleviate that problem somewhat.

 

[CLegacyM]

Who the fuck is Darkartisan?

Anyway, my problem with having Starmie get replaced by Swampert is that Infernape then runs through the team and I have to rely solely on Gengar to take it out or luck.